Over in one of the feedback threads, TOC posted:
Anyway, I *finally* made some progress on LtL yesterday and I've *finally* decided about a snippet of conversation in this chapter. I've cut it out. Labby said she'd allow it on the archive but only because of precedent set in Becky Bain's In A Dark Time - but that she wouldn't allow the text in question there if it was submitted now either.
This bothers me. The Archive has become more G-rated than before, more extremely touchy about anything that smacks the slightest bit of sex. Becky Bain's story was allowed there before, but it wouldn't have been uploaded now. Why must the Archive have such über-strict standards? And why the change?
Okaaaay...
First of all, Ann, I'm somewhat dubious of where you find the evidence for that first charge you make. I am NOT aware that the PG13 policy on the Archive has shifted in recent years. AS EIC, I've certainly made no recent changes in how I determine where the line lies - I'm working to the same set of rules I was handed when I took on the job. Just as I've always done.
In fact, I find your accusation quite ironic. I remember a few months after I became EIC I was accused by two FoLCs on Zoomway's forum of shifting the line way too far in the liberal direction. Since my taking over the job, apparently, the Archive had become the land of Sodom and Gommora overnight.
I hadn't made any shift then, either.
In fact, it's extremely rare that the subject of PG13 comes up for me as EIC of the Archive. I perhaps get an email on the subject from an author or GE once in a blue moon. Otherwise, I rely on the GEs to keep to the line as laid out in the guidelines posted on the Archive and I'm not aware that any of them have magically and abruptly shifted their opinions on where the line lies either.
The Archive may well have strict standards when compared to other fandoms out there. I wouldn't dispute that. However, that has always been the case. The history of FoLCdom has shaped those rules and they apply today as they always have done. Back in the day, it was FoLCs themselves who were strict about the subject. Hoo boy, were they strict. Way, way too strict in my own, personal, opinion. Then, it was brought up almost on a daily basis - mostly by those whose definition of nfic was way tighter than anything currently applying. Then you couldn't even mention the word nfic without provoking a fight, let alone post anything that might cross the line. And authors who actually wrote nfic were considered sadly misguided sinners who needed to be brought back into the light.
I do believe it IS true to say that there has been a recent shift in FoLCdom on PG13. But it lies here on these mbs, not on the Archive, Ann. The criteria for PG13 has always been the same on the ms and the Archive. But within the last year or two, things have become much looser here on the mbs as we've had a large influx of new members who aren't so hung up on the subject as in the past and who are much looser about where the line lies.
It may be that this growing gap in perception between the two as to where the PG13 line lies is why you think there's been a shift in Archive policy. It should be noted, however, that until and unless the admins of this forum decide to change the rules, the guidelines and rules for PG13 as listed on the Archive are also the rules and guidelines which govern this forum.
Carol, you don't do nfic and you wrote something that you would never have considered nfic, but you were told it was. I'm sorry the Archive must be so juvenile when it comes to anything sex-related - I guess that if you are going to upload a story where Lois and Clark have a baby together and you want to explain where the baby comes from, it must either be delivered by a spaceship or a stork?
<sigh> I consider that first remark to be a personal flame, Ann. You may have cited the Archive, but as it's non-sentient it can't possibly be juvenile. It holds therefore that what you actually mean is the EIC is juvenile.
I hardly think that I can be considered a prude or obsessively dedicated to eradicating all things sex-related like some rabid Mary Whitehouse.
Not with the amount of nfic I've posted on the fandom.
Actually, on a personal level, I'm probably much more liberal on the topic than I have to be in my persona as Archive EIC. Believe me, I don't take any great pleasure from telling an author they have to delete text and as an author who has had to convert nfic stories to PG13 myself I know how difficult it can be to do. When it becomes necessary, I believe I'm more than fair and keen to help the author delete as little as possible and I don't think Carol can complain otherwise.
But, as EIC it's my responsibility to apply the current rules. You may find the line as it currently stands ridiculous, but I can assure you that many others will complain that it is way too liberal. As EIC, I have the difficult task of charting a course that will, hopefully, satisfy both camps, most of the time. This I do to the best of my ability and I deeply resent being called juvenile for doing it.
As someone more at the sharp end of conflicting opinion on the subject than most, trust me when I say that I'm perfectly aware that the line between PG13 and nfic is often arbitrary. It is impossible to sit down and say firmly and absolutely - as far as here and no further. Any guidelines posted on the Archive can only BE guidelines, nothing more than that.
As such, it is simply a fact of life that where the line definitively lies will come down in the end to the judgement of the EIC currently in charge of the Archive. I am absolutely sure that, although generally in tune, the previous EIC, Kathy, would not have made the same rulings I have. She'd have let things in that I wouldn't and vice versa. And I'm equally sure that the EIC to come after me will not see the line exactly where I do either. Until we get a definitive definition, that's just going to be how it works, unfortunately. Being human, we have to work it out as best we can and that's about all anyone can reasonably expect of us. It's certainly true to say that on the odd occasion that it comes up as an issue it's definitely by far the most difficult part of being an EIC.
Believe me, over the years a purely definitive line would have made my life a heck of a lot easier. In fact, if it wasn't for the fact that we have a separate nfic archive run by Annette, I'd be more than happy to just lump everything into the Archive and just make sure it's properly and clearly listed as nfic or not.
However, so long as I AM the EIC of the Archive, the rules that have always applied for PG13 will continue to apply. The fact that the Archive doesn't accept nfic is clearly stated in our submission rules. Like any organisation or forum, we expect them to be adhered to when a story is submitted.
With regard to the specifics of this issue, I do not believe that there can be much argument that two characters discussing the act of masturbation currently lies firmly in the land of nfic, according to the guidelines listed on the Archive. No matter how much some members of this forum may disagree, this one isn't even close to being on the border, I'm afraid. Unless the guidelines/rules change, it will always be a taboo topic.
Having said that, it needs to be remembered that the current guidelines date back to the inception of the Archive. That's a lot of years now and, of course, what you can see and hear on TV now is a lot more liberal than it was then.
I guess it comes down to whether you believe the guidelines should be based on current TV or whether it should be based on what would have been acceptable on LNC itself. FoLCs have always held strong views on both points - much of the reasoning for the guidelines came from the fact that a large majority of FoLCs believed at the time that the Superman myth was so family orientated and so morally pure that anything over PG13 would sully it.
Clearly, it's certainly true to say that FoLCdom has become much more liberal in the last ten years than it previously was. Whether that and a changing world are enough reasons to change something that, on the whole, has worked fairly well for the fandom, is perhaps a subject for debate. But so long as the current guidelines are in force then I will, as the current EIC, continue to apply them as I'm obliged to do.
If you are in any doubt about where the line lies, I'm more than happy to advise you. Just drop me an email.
LabRat
