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Originally posted by Lynn S. M.:

I'm familiar with this argument from outside these boards. I certainly can't prove that the people who voice them are wrong, but I strongly disagree nevertheless. First of all, do you see any signs in the world today that women are seen as being worth more than men?

I agree that the "death stories" that get the most publicity in the media tend to be "death of women" stories. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the death of the women are considered particularly deplorable. It could be that these cases are considered titillating and sensational instead. Just a few days ago, a Swedish artist named Lars Vilks was named the target of a female Armerican jihadist, "Jihad Jane". Lars Vilks commented in Swedish media that he loved the idea of a female jihadist, "because every time the murderer is a woman there is an element of sex in the case, and that is so delicious". Similarly, perhaps, a sufficient number of people may think that there is an element of sex every time a woman is murdered, and maybe that makes the "death of women" stories worth devoting a lot of space to in the media?

I want to return to the roots of our western civilization again, and how its roots may affect our present-day thinking. One of the important roots of western civilazation and philosophy is ancient Greece and its myths and general thinking. Ancient Greece was an extremely sexist society, or at least it looks that way when you study the stories from that time. In them, women are often killed, but not because they are regarded as particularly valuable.

To me, the very essence of ancient Greek thinking can be summarized in the story about Agamemnon and his family. Agamemnon's brother, Menelaos, had had his pride mortally wounded when his wife ran away from him to follow Prince Paris to the city of Troy. Menelaos demanded that his brother Agamemnon, a mighty warrior king, must lead a fleet of battle ships and sail to Troy to start a war there.

Under the circumstances, Agamemnon was duty-bound to go to Troy. However, the winds wouldn't blow the way they ought to blow to bring the ships to Troy, and Agamemnon grew desperate. So what did he do? Well, he sacrificed his daughter Iphigenia to the gods to get a favorable wind, of course.



Iphigenia on her way to being sacrificed. Sacrificing her was okay.

The way I read the Greek myth, it doesn't blame Agamamnon for killing his daughter. Why, he was duty-bound to help his brother and to bring his warships to Troy. What is a great warrior king to do, if nothing but the sacrificing of his daughter's life will achieve that end?

Agamemnon's wife Clytemnestra, however, didn't forgive her husband for killing her daughter. So when Agamemnon returned victorious from the Trojan war, Clytemnestra killed him.

The greek myth didn't blame Agamemnon for killing his daughter. It did, however, very strongly blame Clytemnestra for killing her husband to avenge the death of her daughter. What treason that was!



Clytemnestra and her lover kill Agamemnon. Killing him was not okay.

Clytemnestra and Agamemnons son, Orestes, now felt duty-bound to kill his mother to avenge the death of his father. So he did kill his mother:



Orestes killing his mother. Killing her was okay.

Now the furies pursued Orestes all over the land, demanding that he must be killed for murdering his mother. But just when they were about to kill him, the goddess Athena intervened. Athena declared that Orestes was right to kill his own mother to avenge the death of his father, because, said Athena, the father is the child's only true parent. Apparently the child was thought to exist fully formed but tiny inside its father's loins. Then it was transferred into the mother's womb which acted as an incubator, so that the tiny child could grow to its proper size. Incidentally, the Greeks believed that the "thermostat" of the womb was often off, and when that happened the child's natural masculinity shrivelled and died in the womb, and the child was born a girl.



The goddess Athena, exonerating the male murderers of females and telling humanity that a mother is not the true parent of her children.

So in summary, we have a story where a father kills his daughter, and that was right. To avenge the death of the girl the wife killed her husband, and that was wrong. To avenge the death of the father the son kills his mother, and that was right. And in the end the goddess Athena intervenes and declares that women aren't even true parents of their own children. This way, Athena puts down her own gender and sides with the men against the people of her own sex.

To me, this fic is the essence of the idea which says that it is okay to kill women but not to kill men, and women are certainly not worth as much as men.

I realize that the story of Agamemnon and his family doesn't have a lot to do with the story premise that was presented by Lynn. I just wanted to say that I don't believe that the preponderance of "death-of-women" fics in any way proves that women are considered more valuable than men in our western society. I think, instead, that the person who writes "death-of-women" fics to explore the grief of the widower is "playing by the rules" instead, and the rules actually say that it is more okay to kill a woman than to kill a man. Certainly the "sacrifice-ability" of women exists in fiction at least, which many people read to have their general world view reinforced and justified. At least I think that is usually the case.

Ann