One thing that so significant about his fandom is the sheer quality of most of the stories. In most other fandoms, you have to sift through a lot of gilt and worse, before you strike gold.
I was wondering though, among all the wonderful stories archived here over the years…which stories in this fandom would you describe as being “epics”, “classics”, “staples” and “must-reads”, with a clear conscience? The very best of the very best, in other words? (both nfic and gfics)
It doesn’t matter whether it won a Kerth, or even whether or not it was nominated for one. In your opinion, what are the very precious few you could hail as a true “classic”?
I was thinking maybe we could start a thread cataloguing them. I’ve seen it done on some other fansites, and it really saves the newbies a lot of time.

I'd put in When Larry Met Charlie by Wendy Richards, Shades of Grey by C. Leuch, and definitely Masques by Doc Klein's LabRat.

Seasons 5 and season 6 are good too, as far as series go.

Whenever I feel like reading a fanfic I've already read, I usually go to Kaethel's "Rapture in Metropolis," or some of her other fics.

Why not just go to the Kerths site, and start with those? They go back for several years - to 1998, i think and are a guide to what many people have enjoyed. As well, because of the diversity of the categories, you'll get a of range of story types. For example, if it's angsty relationship fics you like, you'll find a category for that.

That way we don't get into these lists that exclude so many writers and can be discouraging for those writers who are overlooked.

c. (here's the link to the site)

The Kerth Awards

There are so many. I have been to many many fandoms and read a LOT of fanfiction. This fandom by FAR has the best writers in it. That is why it makes it so hard to pick classics because my definitive list would end up with me saying... "You know this list is taking way to long to type... just read them all!"

Haha, but this is one of my favorites:

"When the World Finds Out" - CC Aiken (nfic and gfic versions are out there of this one)

There are so many that are good, but there is a couple of series that always come to mind for me and that I'm very fond of:

It Happened One (Super) Night and It's a Super Life by Wendy Richards

and

the Home series by Nan Smith.

I absolutley love the Home series. It's set in the future.

I absoluitely agree with almost everything by Wendy Richards, but very especially "It happened one super night" and "It's a super life".

Then there is of course Momentum by Kathy Brown
Anybody\'s Baby and the Playing... series by Annie M.

They are really waffy all of them - though I have some wham/a-plot stories I love very much ( In a dark time (Becky Bain), Rage (Lynn M), When my world devides and shatters (Peace), Without consent (Wendy Richards)) , skipping all action scenes even in LnC I might not be the right person to ask

Well, looking at my must-read-authors list, I find (apaprt from the ones I mentioned)
CC Aiken, Yvonne Connell, Demi, Sheila Harper, Pam Jernigan, Meredith Knight, LabRat...)

And: Don't forget Camping with Clark

Best,

Jana
(who started so many stories by LabRat but had to put aside most of them because of my lack of this incredibly huge variety of English vocab)

I personally love "Pen Friends" by Wendy. ^_~ But I can't really pick any of her stories since they are all my favorites.

Man picking favorites of the stories in the archive are like trying to pick your favorite child. Pretty impossible since you love them all in different ways. ^_~

Well, this is a fascinating comment. I wasn't aware that I used words that were much different from any other author out there or anything more than common, everyday English.

LabRat

Off the top of my head:

Lab's Masques, Epiphany, and Shape of My Heart
Debby Stark's Dawning series
Irene Dutch's Firestorm series
Kathy Brown's Momentum and When Friends Become Lovers series
Kaylle's In Dreams
CC Aiken's Lois Unbuttoned and In A Better Place
Zoomway's 12:01 and Counter Clark-wise
Wendy Richards's Carbon Copy and Penfriend
Raconteur's Lifeflight
Chris Carr's Extraordinary Man series
Pam Jernigan's President Kent series
Plan9Lives's On The Run (forever incomplete...)

I also suggest checking out the works of Yvonne Connell, Tracey, Kaethel, Nan Smith, LynnM, Erin Klingler, and Crystal Wimmer.

There's more, but I haven't done the reading I should. Never finished Tank's Future series. Never read Shadowfax's Once and Future King. Got a huge backlog reading list...

Oh, and speaking of FoLC classics... I came across the name of Rhen Brink while trying to refresh my memory. Now there is a classic. Maintainer of the original ficlist. I wouldn't be here if not for her. She is missed.

Paul

Trying to think of the older ones...

Meet Me in Kansas City by Chris Mulder.

A Shot in the Dark by Sheila Harper.

Heartbeat by Jennifer Baker.

Not to self-promote or anything, but I do have a list of fanfic recommendations on my website -- it's been sadly neglected but if you want older stories it should do just fine

PJ

The Unfinished Fifth Season.

Would never have found the rest of fanfic without it!

Jen

There're so many awesome stories... Besides the ones above, my best-of-the-very-best list is:

- A Gift for Life by StopQuitDont and Jenni Debbage
- Are You Lonesome Tonight...? by Doc. Klein's LabRat (with nfic version)
- Burden of Conscience by Raconteur27
- Burnout by Doc. Klein's LabRat (with nfic version)
- Cause and Effect by Thompson, ML
- City by the Sea by StopQuitDont *
- Faux Pas by Wendy Richards
- Mxysplit or All Mixed Up by Sheila Harper (there's gfic version, but I do love the nfic version)
- Purity by Yvonne Connell (with nfic version)
- Rest and Reproduction by Meredith Knight (with nfic version)
- Revisionist History by Sue S. (just nfic version)
- Sugar & Spice by Doc. Klein's LabRat (with nfic version)
- Super Stud by ML Thompson (with nfic version)
- The Long Road Home by Erin Klingler
- The Next Step by Sue S. (just nfic version)
- What are Friends For? by StopQuitDont (just nfic version)
- When You Needed Me Most by Erin Klingler
- And overall Faustain Bargain by Sue S. (the nfic version is absolutelly the best of the very best)

My top two are Ad Astra Per Aspera by Becky Bain and The Butterfly Legacy by Lynn M. But there are dozens of others that I think have and will continue to stand the test of time, which is what defines a classic.

I love CC Malo's Recognition Series. It's great for rereading - lots of subtle details and great moments.

Irene

At the risk of sounding like a broken record because of posting the same list:

Going, Going, Gone by The Gorn

I Was Just Thinking by TJ Gruffs

Both are nfics.

I would also like to second others mentioned: The Butterfly Legacy (which is absolutely breathtaking), Ad Astra Per Aspera (which is equally daring and wonderfully written) and The Next Step (which is funny and witty--hands down the best Lois-first-person-POV I've read).

Yes, LabRat, I must agree that your command of English vocabulary is impressive. It's never stopped me from reading any of them, but I can see how it could be a bit of a problem with non-native English speakers. Another person that I think has an unusual command of the language is Tank Wilson.

Is she missed because she no longer participates, or is she missed because she is no longer with us in a more permanent way?

Oh, there are so many good fics listed here. I wish I was like Darcy and could get through the whole archive in four months. I guess I need to take a speed reading class... Haha

She passed on a couple of years ago. Talk about your fanfic classics. She left fanfic just a couple of years before I jumped into it, but from the talk I heard, it makes me wonder how much of all of this would be here and available without her efforts...

But enough musing for now. Back I go to post-modern design.
JD

Ah...I forgot to metion that I'm also talking about WIPs. Some really great stories are floating around unarchived here, Lynn M's Haunting Eden being a case in point. Who knows, being listed might encourage the authors to finish them.
Besides, I've seen some really great stories not receive so much as a nomination, and they tend to get overlooked. That's why I'm asking for personal recommendations, instead of just sticking to the Kerth lists.

I'm afraid I disagree. This is only an informal list, after all, and I'm sure some writers won't be offended at not being mentioned if they've already received some recognition at the Kerths. Anyway, this thread is about the personal opinions of those who happen upon it, and not an official consensus.

I don't think this is really true . We writers can be very thin-skinned. When I see a list like this, I'm secretly hoping someone will have mentioned something of mine, regardless of whether or not I've won an award or whatever (and thanks, Paul, for mentioning ID ).

This is not to say that we can't have lists like this. I just wanted to point out that you can't underestimate the fragility of writers' egos

In the meantime, some of my all-time favorites that haven't been mentioned yet (not at all an exhaustive list, just those that come to mind at the moment):

- Just about anything by CC Aiken, but especially In a Better Place and The Late Great Lois Lane.
- When Friends Become Lovers by Kathy Brown and Demi, and the sequel When Lovers Become More by Kathy Brown
- Meet Me In Kansas City by Chris Mulder.
- Echoes of the Past or the Without a Superman series by ML Thomson
- Tryst by Pam Jernigan
- Smallville 39 by Kaethel

Kaylle

I agree that some writers won't be offended. But what I had said was "discouraged". Lists of favourites can have that effect, formal or informal.

c.

Really? I have to admit I'm surprised to hear this. I wouldn't have considered my stories to be so very different from the hundreds of others on the Archive! Well, all I can say is I don't consciously attempt to use a different vocabulary! <g> When writing I pretty much use the vocabulary I use in everyday speech and I've never thought that it was particularly out there. Perhaps it's all those years working for solicitors. I do tend to use words like timeously and think it's normal, thanks to them.

I'd tend to agree with this. I think if you stick to the Kerth lists you miss out on a heck of a lot of terrific fanfic. As I said in another thread, we're victims of our own success at times in this fandom and each year dozens of truly wonderful stories don't even reach the nominations stage simply because of sheer pressure of numbers, rather than any lack of merit. So I think it does us good to look beyond the Kerths now and then.

LabRat

Totally agree with that sentiment, Lab.

However, the greater proportion of the stories cited on these lists *are* Kerth winners while most of the remaining stories are K nominees. So, I'm not sure these lists do succeed in looking beyond the Kerths to any great degree.

c.

It was meant as a compliment though
(though I wouldn't really know whether I'd feel praised if somebody told me "I'd like to read what you write but I hardly understand anything." But I hope you get my point )
I just wanted to say that your choice of words is very impressive (at least for me who has a hard time to keep a conversation in english alive without stammering) but that I try to read your great work
Well, at least, I managed to finish Epiphany and If tomorrow comes and I loved them

Best,
Jana

Oh, yes - I wasn't at all offended by your comment, Jana. I just kind of blinked in surprise when I read it, because that the vocabulary I was using in my stories was any different from any other story out there just wasn't something that had ever occured to me before.

So, yes, thank you for the sweet compliment. And for persevering with those stories!

Well, this is just one list, Carol. Out of many. I don't think you can generalise about them to any great degree. And this list is kind of skewed towards Kerth nominees/winners because it's specifically looking for 'the classics'. Rather than just good fanfic in general. That tends to gravitate towards the Kerths. Other lists might be more generalised.

Although, there are many classics which never made it to the Kerths, of course. I could probably list a few if my memory wasn't shot to pieces these days...

LabRat (wishing she hadn't lost her personal favourites list...)

Or not

I guess the only way to find out if the lists in this particular thread are atypical of the pattern here is to go back and check.

But since I'm very lazy.....

Lazy? Carol, I should hope you've got better things to do than dig up old threads and do a statistical analysis of their "fairness" quotient or proportion of Kerth noms.

When you're talking about great fanfic, you're going to include a lot of Kerth nominees. The point here is that a list like this isn't limited to Kerth nominees -- as opposed to your suggestion of going to the Kerths page on the archive.

Now, if someone wanted to do a thread about great stories that somehow never got a Kerth nom... that might be very interesting

PJ

p.s., to get back on topic -- I've been reading Dandello's Plane Storm in the fanfic section, and it's really quite fascinating.

Lol, Pam. But seriously, I think you've misunderstood what I was getting at with the comment about the stats - my post was limited to a generalization that had been made about proportion of Kerth stories, nothing more than that. What I was suggesting is that it's diificult to assess the validity of a generalization without the supporting evidence. (That sounds so dry!)

As for having better things to do, well I didn't want to say that in such a crude way. So I opted for "lazy", (not to mention not really motivated to do such a thing.)

But truth be told, I'm in avoidance mode - supposed to be vacuuming, and, well, obviously, I'm not. Of course, that may not be a better thing to do

Sorry for not explaining my point more fully.
c.

Disclaimer: The below statement is not made to offend or start argument. I love you all and think you are great. *cough* Continue...

I'm always amazed that these turn into debates about them being Kerth Nominees. Honestly, I don't think us new people really care if they are or not, we are just looking for something good to read and looking for a short list of essentials to start with. I chose the "read it all" approach but some people just don't have the time for that.

And... I will never knock a story (because even if I didn't like them most are very well written) but I will be honest and tell you a Kerth Award does not mean "Great" story for me. Cause I have found a few that have an award and a nomination that I didn't really care for. It's human nature, we aren't all going to like the same things. If we did we would be robots.

So lists like these make me double check to see if I have read a story, or if I skipped over it and need to give it a second chance. After getting a few I didn't care for, I started ignoring those little nominee and Kerth award symbols when picking what I read. Cause I don't know about you but have you actually paid attention how many of these stories actually have one of those beside it? ALOT...

So let's not debate on whether Kerth's should be named or not. I would like to see anything anyone thinks it worth a read, because there are those of us who are just here to read some great stories and since the archive holds such a sheer number of them, give us newbies somewhere to start please.

We mean no harm with our lists we just have busy lives and haven't been following the stories in the archive for years and had plenty of time to take them in slowly, they were thrown in our face in one chunk... and oh how we have loved every minute of it. I for one did a little "fanfic jig" at my desk when I found the goldmind that was the archive. So, let us make a few lists and don't get offended if you aren't mentioned. Hell, if you aren't mentioned and you think your story was pretty dang awesome, tell us about it and toot your own horn. Cause, I'll go read it if you do. =P


*whispers Irene Dutch's Second Generation stories are my most favorite of that genre ever. Go read them. Start with Firestorm. Am I the only one who kept hoping Lois and Clark would have another kid so she would write another story?*

^
|
See I did a recommendation, so I wasn't to far off topic. Okay I was... Just don't beat me with a cane...

Yes, ironically enough, that was kind of the point I was making in my previous post. Hence the statement:



Glad we seem to be in agreement, Carol, that generalisations are generally a bad idea.

Actually, that's a darn well thought out post, Jojo. Which makes some valid points. Can't imagine why it would cause offence or argument.

LabRat

As another newbie, I absolutely second this. (As an aside, I wonder how long someone is considered new. Six months? A year?) All round this fandom produces good stuff, but due to sheer numbers I can't read them all anytime soon so a threads like these are helful.

Back on topic... I recently read LabRat's beautiful Shape of my Heart and highly recommend it. Others highly regarded: anything by CC Aiken, the Home series by Nan, the Future series by Tank, Duet by Shayne.

That's a relief. But sooner or later there had to be something we could agree on.

Would anyone actually have enough confidence to do that if they hadn't been mentioned?

c,

New is as new feels, Lisa I've been in the FoLCdom since early 2003, and I still feel like a newbie sometimes.

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

Oh, I totally hear you. :p I've probably been keeping up with the fandom in some fashion since 2000 or 2001, but I didn't do any de-lurking til '02, so I still feel new sometimes. <g>

JD

I've been around since 1990-something and, while I probably don't feel new any longer, neither do I feel like an oldie. It was something of a surprise - not to say rather flattering - to discover I'd been recommended in the 'old classics' thread.

Yvonne

I think newbie is a state of mind, rather than a time period. You're a newbie when you're still feeling your way, trying to suss out the rules, find your place.

Once you feel comfortable somewhere...that's when being a newbie ends.

LabRat

Darn, and here I was hoping to be a newbie for at least the first year I was active in a fandom.

I think that, if you've been in different fandoms before, you pretty much get the whole form of things, how they go and everything. The first fandom takes the longest to get comfortable with, and then if/when you go to other fandoms, it's pretty easy to translate it over, and if you go by LabRat's definition of a newbie, then your time as a newbie in subsequent fandoms is shorter every time.

Or at least that's been my experience. There are just certain things that happen in almost all fandoms (or at least the 3-4 I've actively participated in) . . . like message board etiquette (although this fandom is MUCH more up on that), rules for posting/reading Nfic, abbreviations for different parts/episodes of a series--the most popular of which are known by almost all members, etc.

Most of the "being a newbie" part in any fandom after the first is just being up on the "canon," and learning the fandom-specific aspects, like which episodes are the most-abbreviated, and which fanfic authors are the most lauded/respected, what activities or meet-up opportunities there are within the fandom and such.

And then there's me -- I've been in this fandom for eleven years now, and discussions like this tend to make me feel older than dirt But in the nicest possible way!

But seriously, I think DS has nailed it -- your accumulated "fandom" experience makes every transition easier. I barely even remember feeling like a newbie in FOLCdom -- but I was in a format I already knew. <older than dirt>On CompuServe, they had a Sci-Fi Media forum, which had about 10 or 12 sections, each with their own show, chat room, and file library</older than dirt> I'd been very engaged in several of the sections already, so when I got hooked on L&C I had only a very small jump to make.

Now, I do remember *years* of feeling like a newbie on IRC All those commands and strange ways to talk... but that comfort level comes with time and practice. And FOLCs have always been very patient and helpful, in my experience.

PJ

Ok just to make some thread-related comments, pretty much anything by Tracey I'll read over and over again. And I find several of ML Thompson's to be epic staples.


But completely on the fandom tangent, you know what's weird? It's like, a rash of people wrote before me, and now another rash of people are writing after me. And I joined somewhere in the foggy middle right after the Archive was reformatted, sort of during the great message board split... And thse days, I'm kind of hanging around in this retarded jigsaw puzzle wondering if I have anything left to write about, wondering if I should sit back and see what several new authors are doing...and in general wondering if it's time to start lurking again.

JD

I love so much The Late Great Lois Lane of CC Aiken!!!So touching and strong!
And Momentum 1 and 2 of Kathy Brown! I enjoyed for every line!!!!! Wonderful, romantic and funny!!!! The best
And the season 5 and 6!!! Great episodes!

I would, of course, nominate anything by Nan Smith .

I would also mention many of the other people mentioned above, there are far too many. We are truly blessed to have sooooo many good writers.

Then you have the moderately talented ones, like myself, who really enjoy what they have written but are just missing that something that makes their stories truly noteworthy.

I have written for other fandoms and received some nice reviews, but then the quality of fic in those fandoms are so low that it really doesn't take much to be considered good.

James

Completely off topic, but...

Jen, no! There is to be no lurking from you! (Although I think you have already started, given that you posted this on 11/20 and I haven't seen you around much lately.) Your posts are funny fresh air and we need them. Who else could comment so eloquently on roaches?

Ditto! Jen, don't feel you need to lurk! You make great contributions in discussion threads and you know we're insatiable where fanfic is concerned... I mean, if the muse ain't working, there's only so much you can do about it (ask me how I know :rolleyes: ) but that's no excuse for not talking to us anymore

PJ

Come on, Jen. No!!! Do you know how much I'll miss your avatar if you abandon us? I seriously mean it. Did you paint it yourself? Ah, and honestly, I'm so going to miss your posts too, your cyberspace voice, your point of view. Please stay and keep talking to us!!!

Ann

Or it could have something to do with the fact that timeously (which I had never heard before, and I have a pretty good vocabulary) is " chiefly Scottish and South African ." As are the occasional other usages in your fics (well, many are UKisms in general, rather than specific to Scotland). They don't bother me at all (I grew up reading the One End Street books and others of that ilk), but might be confusing to a non-native English speaker more familiar with American English.




And make me hunt you down and pester you on AIM until you start posting again? Wasn't once enough?

Well, in the context of the language used in my fanfic being substantially 'different' from all others in FoLCdom, the use of UKisms as the reason would strike me as very odd, to be honest, considering I'm not the only UK author writing for FoLCdom. I can't imagine that I use more UKisms than any other UK author.

In fact, I'd say less in many cases, because I've always used US betas to weed out as many UKisms as possible in my fic dealing with US shows and I know that not all UK authors feel the need to do that, preferring to use UK English as standard.

So if it was UKisms that was the point of difference I'd imagine that whoever it was who brought this one up (sorry can't remember who you were now! ) would have cited all UK authors as a group, rather than just my fic.

Interesting that MW considers timeously to be chiefly Scottish and South African. My own personal experience has been that it's almost entirely used as a legal term and I've never heard it used commonly outside of the office. I'd be curious to know if American law offices use it as a legal term, or whether it's a purely Scottish/South African legal term.

Interesting.

LabRat

LabRat, I don't find your stories at all inaccessible (though I freely admit I'd never heard the word 'timeously' and don't have the first clue what it means!) but I can almost always recognize when a writer is or isn't an American, and you were no exception. It's less to do with overt UKisms than subtle differences in syntax. It doesn't affect my enjoyment of the story one whit, but I can usually spot it.

As an American writing in the HP fandom, I quickly realized that many of the British writers were very offended by Americanisms and thought that if we couldn't make our characters sound Properly British, we ought not be allowed to bother with them. The problem is that most Americans just can't sound authentically British. Some really try. They make an effort to do away with obvious Americanisms, even to the extent of having someone Britpick their stories for them, and they learn all about the difference between pants and trousers and whatever else seems to apply. Others just insert the word 'bloody' here and there, more or less at random, and hope that does the trick. Still others do absolutely nothing, up to and including having Harry et al celebrate Thanksgiving (unbelievable how many times I've seen this in fic...) which makes the UK readers want to come after them with pitchforks. I kind of tried to be in the first group, but in the end, I pretty much decided that no matter what I did, British readers were going to know that I'm not - and if they didn't like it, they could just go read something else.

All that to say that while I can usually spot a UK writer, I've never yet encountered an L&C story where those slight differences have hindered my enjoyment of the story or jerked me out of the imaginative experience. In fact, in many cases, your stories included, those subtle differences in phrasing contribute something vital to the author's unique style, and I'd hate to see them lost for that reason

Caroline

Caroline said:

Which reminds me of one of the first serious papers I handed in to a full professor. It was returned to me with this scrawled at the bottom of the page halfway through: "Write like an American for God's sake!"

I was and remain completely confused. I THOUGHT I wrote like an American. Apparently not. I'm not even sure how to go about correcting this problem.

It doesn't mean anything more startling than 'early as possible'. It worked its way into my daily vocab after years of typing "Dear Sir, We'd be obliged if you could send us your payment timeously, otherwise we'll sue your butt off." Or words to that effect.

US -v UK authors: I don't think you can ever immerse yourself completely in US language/writing styles if you're a UK author and vice versa. I've always been in the first category you mention. I try to make it as US as possible, partly because I feel if I'm dealing with a US show and characters I owe it to them and partly because I enjoy the American language and always have done, so it's always been a joy to discover the differences between the two.

I can understand why UK readers would be irked by Harry Potter celebrating Thanksgiving, just as US readers would be irked by, oh say, Lois and Clark celebrating Guy Fawkes Night (unless, of course, there was a good plot reason for it that acknowledged it was something out of the ordinary for them to be doing) - probably justifiably in the extreme cases. But I think a reader at the other end of the spectrum, like those you mention, who won't read a story if its not 100% UK/US is missing out on a heck of a lot of good reading!

LabRat

Completely off the "classics" topic:

I can too, and it always makes me smile. I spent a few months in the UK once upon a time and reading stories by our Brits in residence always takes me back to fond memories. The tip off for me usually is words like "properly" and "quite". Not that Americans don't use them; it just seems that Brits use them in a different way. I noticed that most of our UK writers don't use what we think of as typically British words, like "bloody" or "loo", but I did read a story least week in which Lois offered Clark "tea and biscuits"!

By the by, I have embarrassed myself numerous times while in the UK by referring to my trousers as my pants, including one particularly memorable occasion involving an elderly gentleman at Kempton Park racecourse.

Caroline wrote:

That's a terrible attitude: horribly snobbish and very unfair.

I write in the Doctor Who fandom now, and again it's a British fandom with British (or British-sounding) characters, and so you're quite right that there are many American phrases, events, customs and so on which really don't work in the context. You mention Thanksgiving, which is one; I've seen reference to 'blocks' as a measurement of distance, someone making smores or a grilled cheese sandwich, high school prom or graduation or having to pay at a hospital.

Yes, these are fairly glaring to a British eye. Not difficult, though, to get a Britpick BR, or even hang out at some of the LJ communities where you can get Britpick questions answered (dw_britglish comes to mind for the DW fandom). But the little things - US spelling, the occasional word-use or syntax which is different and so on - never bother me, especially if the writer's good. Oh, I'd prefer not to see Rose, who is from London, talk about needing new pants. Dialogue should sound as in-character as possible, and that's something I tried to do while I was writing L&C - I didn't always succeed, but I know it's important.

I BR for three US DW authors, and I do help them with British English - these authors also want to use UK English spelling, which I don't see as necessary but they want it so I'm not going to argue Plenty of other US writers in the fandom use US spelling and some US vocabulary, but do try to avoid the obvious cultural differences - and I know I appreciate the effort they make. There's a difference between accommodation and assimilation, and I'd never want to suggest that the latter's necessary to write in a fandom based in a different country.


Wendy

Lisa:



LabRat:

Yes, this is how I felt about it I think it's lots of fun to learn the differences and never minded having them pointed out to me, especially if it was in an, "Oh, by the way..." way. I had someone write me once to tell me that there was no poison ivy in Ireland, where I'd set a portion of one story. I found that fascinating, not least because it was something I would have never in a hundred years thought to check! I don't remember now if I went back and changed it, but I will certainly never plant fictional poison ivy in Ireland again!

It was the long rants I sometimes encountered at LJ and in bulletin board posts that I found discouraging. They usually set a standard I knew I could never meet. And I think the problem was exacerbated by the books being published in an "American" version. I find that ridiculous, too, actually. Americans have been reading British literature for many years without needing a separate version all their own, and most of us are quite capable of grasping British idioms from context. I ordered the HP books from Canada so that my kids could read them the way they were written.

Wendy:

I used UK spelling when I wrote in the HP fandom, but I just used my spell checker to make any changes I might have missed on my own. Set it for UK English, and it pretty well does the job for you Though after the years of writing HP fic, I now catch myself using some British spellings inadvertently. I write "labour" more often than not, for some reason, and I can never remember whether grey or gray is the American spelling. They both look equally right to me.

Yes! Very well put

I have to say, though, that overall it's kind of relaxing to be writing in an American fandom again, where I don't have to second guess every line of dialogue. And since I'm a Southerner, writing for Perry is especially fun. Finally, a character who speaks my native language!

Caroline

Yes, the authors I work with also use spellcheckers to help them, but they're not infallible, and Word sometimes switches back on you when you're least expecting it. I caught memorize in something my friend was pasting to me this morning, and her Word hadn't flagged it for her.

Also, there are some circumstances where two spellings are acceptable, but you'd use the word differently depending on the circumstances. In UK English, for example, everyday and every day are two different words with distinct meanings, but I notice in US English the first spelling is used for both.


Wendy

Gray and grey are used interchangably (although I can't seem to remember the correct spelling of this word) in American English.

Don't know that therre is a correct spelling fo gray/grey, but I believe gray is more commonly used in the U.S. and grey is more common in the U.K.

Also, I think gray is used more when describing something's color, and grey is used to describe the clarity of something. Just my guess.

I've seen grey / gray used interchangeably in the US. I've never heard about gray as a color and grey to describe the clarity of something. Hmmm....

I may be completely off on that.

Interesting. I’m mostly just coming back to this thread, and I have to agree that most everything mentioned was from Kerth winners or nominees. Even the ones that aren’t on that list seem to be *mostly* (not all) from older authors / stories. There are some notable exceptions like Sue S.’ Faustian Bargain.

What I’m wondering is this (and I know it’s been said before): I wonder if newer authors are given a fair shake? It seems that most of the newer authors on this board are also getting feedback from the other newer folks. Of course that isn’t always true, but I wonder if some of the folks that are considered ‘icons’ ever take a look at some of the newer authors’ stories. I know they watch for new stories because I see them post when one of those other ‘icons’ post a story. By ‘icons’ I mean the great ‘older’
writers out there. The ones that have been around for many, many years. Yes, I know, I’ll probably be blasted for this, but I can’t help but wonder. (Yes, I’ve seen a couple of ‘icons’ post on newer stories, and I’m sure all of us authors have been extremely grateful.) I ask this because I see some fantastic stories that I don’t think are getting a fair shake. I know some of the newer folks don’t even know who the ‘icons’ are, but I’ve been a lurker for a long time, so I do. Do you know how much it would mean to the newer authors for one of you ‘icons’ to comment? Do you have any idea? (And you ‘icons’ know who you are.)

Let me give you just one example. Lara Moon just posted Reversal of Fortune I thought it was fantastic! And at the time of this posting no 'icons' had made any comments.

I’m sure I could come up with more, but this was the one that immediately came to mind.


And yes, Lady Mirth asked about classics, but I just wondered about newer stories seemingly not getting the recognition they deserve.

I don’t think it’s atypical at all.

All right, JoJo, this wasn’t my intention in saying what I said above, but I thought you said once that you read everything on this board. So have you read any of my stories? Yes, I know my monster fic does not include Lois and that turns many off. So I'll be brave and ask if you've read any of the others. Twisted ? What about Defeated ? I’ve been told that both are pretty good. (And not just by folks on this board.) Have you read anything by Woody? Bakasi? Olympe? Lara Moon? (Those are recent new authors that I remember off the top of my head.)

I agree. Nan Smith’s Home series is pretty good, too.

Probably not, but I did it anyway.
I just decided I'd go for it!!

Well, I’ve been lurking since 1998. But I didn’t start posting until July. So what does that make me. Newbie or oldie?

Yvonne, you are ‘icon’. (And thank you for your kind comments to me.)

Well, I’m sure you have plenty to write about. And I have seen you reading the newer stuff. Don’t lurk. It’s so much more fun to post.


I agree. (And what does timeously mean?) I’ve also gotten so I can pick out German and Portuguese and Spanish writers, but do I care? Not one whit. (As I’ve said before, my biggest hang-up is folks who won’t even try to do things like use capitalization.)

But why would British readers get upset over Americanisms? Why not just enjoy the story? But then, too, if the British folks don’t tell somebody it’s an Americanism then how would you ever know? Some of them can be totally foreign. Do you know how many Americans know what a spanner is? Well, when I first heard it, I imagined everything under the sun - including an athletic supporter (as in spanning the matter) - but a wrench? I would have never guessed.


Sounds to me like he was being a jackass. Who cares as long as the paper was good? Reminds me of the professor I had that got mad because I objected to him cutting open a live mouse. He made my life hell, and since it was a small college, he was the only professor available for that particular class.

My gadfries, are there really Americans out there that don’t know that Thanksgiving is strictly an American holiday? Evidently so. And Scots speak Scottish, and Austrians speak Austrian, and Brazilians speak Brazilian. Arggghhh…..

So I what exactly does pants mean in GB? Underwear?

I’d just laugh and think it was cute. I’m pretty sure I read one where they had pie and chips. (I still don’t know what the heck that is.)

Well, if Brits don’t eat these then they should!!! They are both wonderful.

Unfortunately, yes, we Americans have to do that. I for one (and I’m a nurse) think we should get with it and have socialized medicine.

Wendy, what does LJ mean? I figured out that DW is Dr. Who.

What’s the difference?

Well, okay, then. I've put my foot in my mouth for the day.

They are? Really? Even in academic American English there is no distinction? How about the Canadians? Do they distinguish? You know, this could explain quite a few of the supposed discrepancies in my writing. Maybe I should start double-checking things with the MBs! From now on, I'm blaming all grammar issues on the pervasive presence of British schoolteachers in the world.

Is this the time to mention how Teri Hatcher's California valley-girl accent occasionally slips out at random moments in the show despite the fact that most people think Metropolis is supposedly somewhere near the East Coast?

Oh, heaven help us if they had the program speaking like some of the folks in New England do. They'd had to have them putting R's where they don't belong. I'd rather hear the valley girl accent (really).

But what is the difference between every day and everyday? Really. What's the difference?

I never had one British school teacher. No, not one. (But I did have grandmother who was a long time school teacher and scolded folks for not spelling color as colour and for calling a rule a ruler.)

And remind me what an MB is.

Okay - LJ is LiveJournal.

And as for everyday versus every day, it's simple: there are two distinct meanings.

Everyday means daily, as in in everyday life.

Every day means each day, as in every day I'm away from you I miss you more.

Smores do sound good, but they're not a British tradition, so it does look odd if they crop up in a UK-set fic with UK characters. I've had a grilled cheese sandwich; it's far too greasy for my liking, given that 'grilled' does not mean the same for Americans as for those of us from the other side of the Atlantic. For us, a grill is what you call a broiler - and for years I had absolutely no idea what 'broiling' was.

There are way too many pitfalls for people writing about cultures different from their own. Recently, for example, I had to point out to another American writer that the occupation of 'busboy' doesn't exist in British restaurants - and certainly not in pubs.


On another matter, you mention 'icons' who don't post on fic, Classicalla. Are you thinking of anyone in particular? Because maybe some of the people you might have in mind aren't really around much any more. I know in the last year or two a number of the older writers have moved on to other things, other fandoms or just don't have time any more. There are all sorts of reasons why people don't post feedback, and it doesn't necessarily mean that they didn't read the fic, or that they read it and didn't like it.


Wendy

Classicalla:

Wow. That is some serious lurking!

I'm not Wendy, obviously, but LJ is LiveJournal.

Well, I'm still new here - or at least I think I am. Now that we've thrown previous fandom experience into the mix, I'm not entirely sure of the formula, but I'm pretty sure I qualify as new in this fandom. I'm "old" in other places, however, so maybe I can offer one possible explanation for the phenomenon you describe, based on my own experiences.

Fandom interest varies in duration from person to person, but if you hang around a fandom long enough and aren't a complete pain in the butt, you're likely to make friends there. And if, while you're making friends, you consistently write readable stories, you're likely to develop some sort of following as an author. Neither of these things necessarily happens overnight, however, and by the time your popularity as an author hits its peak, there's a chance that your interest in the fandom might just be waning. But you have all these friends there, so even though you've reached the point where the thought of reading or writing one more story about _____ makes you slightly queasy, you can't bring yourself to leave the fandom entirely. You move on to other things, yes, whether real life things or new fandom things, but you poke your head in at the old place, too, every now and then, just to touch base with those old friends. Gradually, the authors' names on the new fics get less and less familiar, but every now and then, one of those wonderful old friends - who are, after all, the real reason you poked your head in in the first place - will post a fic. And of course you'll read it. And you'll let them know you read it. And it's really not an insult to the new people that you're doing this, and it doesn't mean that you think they're not capable of writing good stories. It's just that you're more motivated by friendship at this point than by genuine interest in the fandom.

I certainly don't pretend to speak for anyone else here; I just offer the above up as one possible explanation. I honestly don't think that new writers are being denied a "fair shake" from anyone here. It's just kind of the way fandom works - one wave of authors gives way to the next, and then the next, and each successive group has to put in the time to prove themselves.

I have thoughts on the weighty 'everyday' versus 'every day' issue as well (I definitely don't use the former in every case) but it's past midnight, and I need some sleep!

Caroline

This is correct American usage as well, although too few people are aware of it. :p

Actually, the Canadians celebrate Thanksgiving as well, the second Monday in October. The origins of the Canadian holiday have nothing to do with the Pilgrims, but many of the American "trappings" became common during the Revolutionary War when Americans loyal to Britain moved north to Canada.

Well, as you mentioned, since this thread deals with "classics", it's not surprising that most of the recommendations are for older stories. And since many of the classics are indeed Kerth nominees/winners, the two go hand-in-hand. And of course there are "classics" that weren't Kerth nominees, so we started this thread .

Now, perhaps this doesn't conform to a strict dictionary definition, but for me, to be a "classic", a story has to have withstood the test of time. That some time (and more than just a few weeks or months) after its publication, people still talk about it, still recommend it, still hold it up as a standard-bearer in the field. So, and no disparagement of "Faustian Bargain" is intended in any way, for me it is not a classic. Yet. Although I imagine that it will be known as that in the future. It's gotten a heck of a lot of buzz, and it deserved the kudos that came its way, because it was a terrific story, but it's still too new for me to call it a classic. Nothing posted this year is a "classic" for me. Not yet.

Well, I'm not an 'icon', obviously. I've been around for a number of years now, but my posting feedback in the past year or so has dropped considerably...and I'm not a writer. But I would certainly guess that the major element stopping anyone from posting feedback is, of course, time.

Personally I marvel at the long feedback posts from Ann that begin with her statement that she has virtually no time. Yet then she posts all that. Now, perhaps her thoughts just flow out almost like a stream of consciousness, so she can just type it and hit REPLY. I don't know, but me - I have to go back and rephrase, edit, then edit again before finally ending up with a post that's nowhere near as long. I don't always have the time for that. Sometimes I'm just too lethargic, or too depressed, or unable to think of just what to say at that moment. There could be many other reasons.

My mood often influences my reading. If I've tried part/all of a story by an author that I wasn't particularly excited about, I might only skim over the next couple of things that he/she posts, looking for something that catches my interest. Maybe that will come in the next story, maybe it will be three or four stories down the line.

And maybe the time will never come. Someone (was it Jojo?) mentioned reading some Kerth-nominated/winning stories and not being particularly enthralled by them. Well, obviously enough people disagreed with her, but that doesn't make her wrong, or the stories bad because she didn't like them. They just didn't appeal to her. I can think of the stories of several authors that didn't particularly appeal to me, but then other ones that they've written that I liked very much. Sometimes their writing style has changed somewhat from one story to the next, sometimes it's the story matter.

I must admit that I wonder why it matters if an 'icon' doesn't post. Does that make feedback from one particular person more valid, more respected, somehow? Sure, I can understand the thrill an author would feel if they opened a comments thread and saw "Wow, XXXX read MY story!" But does the fact that no XXXX has posted make the feedback that is there any less constructive, any less genuine?

I feel that I may have misconstrued your comments, Classicalla, and if so I apologize. I do agree that it probably takes most new authors a while to build a reputation in any fandom. Some may "break" in more easily than others. And sometimes the "older" readers aren't reading so much, so they're being more selective in their choices. But the great thing about this fandom is that there are always new people finding us, so the readership for fanfic doesn't diminish, and L&C live on.

Kathy

Oh, and Wendy...

Well, that's the way that I learned it, but I was raised in Canada, so it must be that British influence again. Having lived in the States for about 15 years now, I've adapted to saying "zee" instead of "zed", and it's not too hard for me to write "color" instead of "colour" so people don't comment that I've spelled it wrong, but I don't plan to give up the "every day/everyday" distinction.

Well, I've been around since early 1999 and posted my first story that year. I don't know where that puts me on the "older writers" category, but I think that leaves me out of "icon" status, thank heavens <g>.

I'm just getting back into writing again after an enforced near-hiatus of about 5 months, and I'm still catching up on a million things that I let slide during that time, including writing two stories that need to be finished soon. I've been reading the stories as they hit the Archive, since I don't yet have the time with everything that is still going on to read all the stories being currently posted. Someday in the distant future when life settles down to a sprint, maybe I'll be able to go back to my old style of reading stories as they are posted. I do read the comments, and occasionally get too curious for my own good and end up reading one of the current "in progress" fics, however. When I do, I'll try to make an effort to drop a line in the future.

Nan

P.S. And by the way, thanks to those who mentioned some of my stories as "classics", although I'm a little stunned ...

Yes, I know some have moved on - in more ways than one. But there are still icons hanging around here. (And you’ve got to know you are an icon. What LnC fanfiction fan hasn’t read a great Wendy fic?) And I know some of you are pretty busy. I just wonder if some of you know how much that would mean to get a little tidbit? Like Sue S. said: Feedback is like a drug. When Yvonne posted on my fic, I was on Cloud Nine. Surely, I’m not the only one that feels that way. I know some of the newer folks don’t even know who some of you are, but there are a lot who do. I don’t think I could even begin to mention all the great ‘icons’ and I’d be afraid of offending someone anyway. But you aren’t the only ‘icon’ who has posted in this thread.

As I’ve said before though, sometimes even a smiley would be nice. I post on everything I read, and sometimes a smiley is all I’ve had time for. And no, I don’t read everything. I don’t have time. I know not everyone posts on fics they read, but I still wonder why that is. I also try to email the author of every fic I read on the archive. Of course, sometimes that doesn’t work since the emails no longer work. I guess what I’m trying to say is that authors need to know that their work is appreciated. (I’m sure you’ve got to know that.) And when can we twist your arm and get you to write LnC fics again?

It’s just that I’ve noticed that sometimes ‘icons’ post on fics from authors that are also considered ‘icons’, but they don’t post on fics for other authors. And some of those newer authors are pretty darn good.

Yes, Caroline, what you said about making friends is true. I guess my point is is why some folks (the folks that are still very active) automatically ignore the newer authors. (You know they do.)

It seems like I did use everyday and every day when I was younger, but now the lines are blurred.

That’s true about Thanksgiving, Kathy, but I was thinking more of it as the date. I always think of the Canandian Thanksgiving Day as the Canadian Thanksgiving Day and the American one as the American one. I don’t associate the two as the same.


Yes, you are right. I probably should have started a new thread, but I was quite frankly too chicken to do so.

Yes, I can understand that. I guess I must be one of those folks where it flows. Because I also post long feedback. But why do all the rephrasing and editing? (Yes, I do some of that.) Like I said, a smiley is always nice….

No, it doesn’t. I value ALL my feedback as I’m sure all authors do. My point is that some folks don’t seem to give new folks a chance. I try to make a special effort to do so. (I probably fail miserably.) And it’s not only the ‘icons’ who don’t post feedback. There are several others. Some people are afraid to post feedback because they think they might look stupid. I felt that way for many years and I can think of a lot of people that I should have given feedback to that I didn’t. I’m sorry for that.

Don’t get me wrong, Kathy. I’m not begging for feedback. It took me years to finally post my fics, so I’m not going to stop now. It’s just that I’ve noticed that newer authors - NOT just me - (some of whom have written great fics) don’t seem to have the feedback that they should have. Even having someone say, “Well, I tried to read it and I just couldn’t get into it.” would be great. (And I’ve been told that, and I appreciated it.)

Nan, you are an ‘icon’. Your stories are among my favorites. (And by the way, I’m sorry I haven’t posted on Super Cop II. I want to read Super Cop I first.)

So, anyway, I’m hoping you guys didn’t take this the wrong way. It’s just something I’ve been wondering about.

I'm nowhere near icon status, but I'm perfectly okay with that.

However, I would like to offer another possible explanation about the feedback thing.

I tend to stay as far away from WIP fanfic as possible, because, in other fandoms, the WIPs basically took over my life. I was constantly trying to keep up with one writer or another.

So, on the boards, I only read one-shots, or fics that are complete but not posted on the archive.

Occasionally, as in the case with Sue's Faustian Bargain, I will read a WIP, but it has to be a) something I'm really interested in, or b) almost finished, and definitely going to BE finished.

Sometimes, I'll see a WIP that looks interesting, but I'll pass it by because I don't have time to get caught up in a story that will be a long time getting finished. I think to myself, "Hmmm, that looks interesting; I should read it when they're done."

But then, I think that about so MANY fics, I often forget which fics I thought it about.

That may be the case with some of the icons you mentioned, Nancy, I don't know.

Then again, I could just be weird and scatter-brained. :p

KathyM,
No, but I think many newbies lurk for sometime before taking the plunge. In that time they will build up an idolization for certain authors, sometimes those authors might very well be the reason why they take the plunge, when these authors post in their feedback threads it gives the newbies a "touched by god" moment. Perhaps they even feel that they have managed to give something back to their idols. Praise from people we revere always means more then random people on the internet.

Classicalla,

Caroline gave an explanation for this, Old timers sticks around for the buzz after they lost the feverish fannishness. And their sparse feedback is more motivated by friendship then interest in the fandom itself. ie they don't give new stories a chance because they are not really interested in stories anymore.

Time is one factor, but to me it’s also a psychological aversion to simple patting people on the back, I know it’s appreciated but it makes me feel empty. Also I only read WIP's from authors whose work I know I like. (and this isn't always a quality decision) I give other authors a whirl when they get to the archive if the blurb fits my preferences.

Actually, I didn't know this. I'd honestly never given it a thought until you brought it up, and since I don't read much at all when I'm writing (which has pretty much been for the last 9 months straight) I don't have much idea about the newer authors - aside from myself, obviously - or who's reading them. But just to clarify my position, I'll say this: I appreciate feedback on my stories. Genuinely, honestly appreciate it. I'm delighted when someone lets me know they're enjoying something I've written. It's not the reason I write it - I'd do that anyway, for myself, because I'm just wired that way - but it's the reason I post it: because I hope others will enjoy it. But when it comes right down to it, if I had my choice between receiving feedback from an author I admire or having a "conversation" with her about her writing, or the writing process, or fandom in general, or the difference between pants and trousers , I'd pick the conversation. It's what makes communities like this fun for me - that readers and writers can mingle as peers and have those sorts of conversations. It is one of my true regrets that real life doesn't afford me the time to be more active here in that way, because it seems like such a nice community.

I also know that I lurked in this fandom for quite a few months without ever posting any feedback. I didn't follow too many WIP's (though I did follow "24 Hours" as it was being posted, as I recall, and loved every single post) but I read at the archive and enjoyed myself so much it was almost indecent, yet never sent a single e-mail to any of the authors I admire. I don't really have a good explanation, either. I just...didn't feel like de-lurking, didn't feel like popping my head out. When I did decide to de-lurk, I did it as an author, not as a reader. That was my choice. But why would I now expect the authors I admired from afar as a reader to drop everything and rush to read my stories? If they do, I'm pleased and I hope they enjoy themselves, but I don't expect it of them any more than I expect it of anyone else.

Just my .02

Caroline

Well, since Classicalla included me in her 'icon' categorisation, I'll explain my position - which it seems most people know anyway

About a year ago, I got sucked into another fandom. Almost exactly a year ago, I posted my first fic in that fandom - as a complete nonentity, a newbie whom no-one knew. Although I was still finishing 24 Hours at the time, and also working on a Christmas L&C fic and a birthday fic for Elena, I didn't have anything like the same excitement for those as for my Doctor Who writing. In fact, for months I was far more prolific in writing for DW than I've ever been in L&C. Yes, you can let your jaws drop. I was pretty stunned myself. My story count on the DW archive (and there've been a couple of short stories I never posted there) is currently 90. Add to that another four stories, one multi-part, that I co-authored and were posted under my co-author's nick... well, it's embarrassing.

Thing is, I discovered that I don't seem to be capable of maintaining intense interest in two sets of characters at once. I fell in love with the characters in my other fandom. While I didn't exactly fall out of love with the characters in L&C, I have zero interest in writing about them any more. Though it's true that I was already finding it difficult to sustain motivation even before my fandom shift. Maybe - entirely possible given my story count on the archive - I'm just out of inspiration. But I also don't really feel any desire to read fanfic about L&C any more. Some of my favourite authors have posted long stories in the last year, and I haven't read them - that's a real first. I don't follow new stories on the boards any more.

Those of you who are new here won't know, but I used to read almost everything and if I liked something I would post feedback. I never cared who the author was - a friend, someone I never knew, whatever. So the only reason I haven't commented on fic by new authors I'm hearing are really, really good is that I'm just not reading L&C fic at all.

Caroline said:

That's it absolutely. It's happened a couple of times during the year that a good friend has posted something and I've read it, out of friendship and out of knowing that I've enjoyed their work in the past. Yvonne, for example, is one of my closest friends in the fandom. She posted a story - I read it. (Of course, I also loved it, even if it didn't make me want to read more L&C).

But I do know that there are some wonderful new authors this year, and I'm looking forward to the hot competition for Best New Author in the Kerths


Wendy

Obviously, any writer would be thrilled to have someone they admire comment on their work. If I wrote a story and someone like, say, CC Aiken, left positive FDK, I'd probably faint clean away. But I haven't really noticed anyone here commenting selectively, that is, leaving FDK only for certain people. It seems that a lot of the older authors aren't commenting on fanfic at *all* anymore. For example, while we do see Wendy and LabRat on the boards, it's not usually in the fanfic folders. I just assumed that it was because real life got in the way or their interests veered in another direction. So I really never viewed it as anything personal. Then again, I haven't posted a story either, so maybe I should just keep my big mouth shut!

I do as well, but I admit that I am not as consistent with this if the author has written a lot of stories. I know they like to hear their work is appreciated as well, it's just that they have so many great stories that I'd be sending them an email every day! Can imagine if I sent Wendy an email for every one of her stories? After a while she might think, I get the point, you annoying girl, leave me alone!

Nancy, you might try sending them a PM here on the boards. Although obviously not everyone is on the boards, but a lot are. Also I often feel strange sending emails to people I don't know (no idea why) so a PM is more comfortable for me.

I think everyone's given some good reasons as to why there seems to be a lack of feedback these days. I hope this gives new writers who might be feeling discouraged a few things to consider. There are still readers out there! They may just not post as often as you'd like. Hopefully it will also encourage lurkers to not be afraid to post a little feedback sometimes.

In addition, and this is JMO, but new authors are writing from a position of disadvantage in regards to those of us who have been reading for a long time. You know the saying "it's all been done before"? Newer authors and newer readers often are just discovering the pleasures of the archive. I have, however, read nearly every story on the archive and quite a few others that never made it there.

After reading 50+ takes on a subject, most of the angles have already been covered. I'm not saying someone couldn't sweep in here and knock me off my feet, but some of that is a tough act to follow. When you've read "In the Beginning" by Sheila Harper and someone decides to tackle Lois being married to an abusive Lex Luthor and needing Clark Kent's help, you have a serious standard because that is one great story. Plus it has the bonus of being the one I read first. This isn't to say that you can't do it as Sara in "Made to be Broken" did. It's possible, but in true Bloomian fashion, the burden is on you to insert yourself into the tradition by outdoing your predecessors. It's not fair, but it's reality.

I don't say this to discourage anyone. I do, after all, love to read. I live forever in the expectation that some newly fabulous story is going to cross my path. Plus, the longer you write on here and the more you hone your skills, the better the odds are that you are going to write something so great that I'll have to break my rule and start reading. So get to it!

I don't believe that I ignore newer authors. I post here these days if I have something to say. Or if I've read the story and enjoyed it. Who the author is doesn't really come into the equation for me; it never has done. What counts is the tale and whether I'm having fun with it.

Actually, to be honest, these days my main criteria is length. I tend to only read vignettes in the main and only then when something about one in particular has sparked my attention. I spend less time in the Fanfic folder than I used to, but I do tend to check it over regularly because I'm an admin, looking for anything that needs to be deleted, moved etc. Along the way, now and then, I see something that catches my eye and intrigues me, so I'll check it out. Who wrote it – I couldn’t care less.

Caroline sums up perfectly where I currently am with FoLCdom. I simply lost all interest in writing or reading LNC fanfic. By this point, normally, I would have long since moved on to reading/writing for other fandoms, other shows.

In fact, I have moved on in my watching habits – I had quite a long burning obsession with Stargate for a spell and other shows have long since replaced LNC in my affections. But I haven't moved on emotionally from FoLCdom because I have good friends here, I like the atmosphere of these mbs (which are way more polite and friendly than most out there) and so I stick around because I enjoy the company.

It's for the latter reason that even though I don't tend to read much fanfic these days, I do still trawl through the comments folders for them, now and then. I still enjoy the debate, the conversation on fanfic. And, every now and then, I see something that makes me want to comment, too. Or something that intrigues me and so I'll go check out the story. Time factors – and, again, general disinterest in reading anything very long – mean that's usually on the odd vignette.

So, no, it's nothing personal.

This topic has, of course, come up in the past. And I do know that many have answered that they just don't have time in their busy lives to read everything that's posted. So, naturally, they tend to pick out the authors they know they enjoy, who they can reasonably assume won't disappoint them. Yes, this means new authors don't get a fair shake, but you can't force people to read. And I don't believe that anyone reading stories here should feel obliged to post fdk.

I do feel for new authors trying to get attention and am saddened, often, even bemused, by good stories which just don't seem to get noticed the way that they should. I've often spent time trying to think of some way to solve that one, but I've never come up with anything. Perhaps readers could make the time to choose one new author to take a chance on and add them to their reading list. They might just be surprised by what they find. Of course the problem with such an 'Adopt a New Author' scheme is would the same new author get all the attention and all the others still be ignored. There are no easy answers.

Remember that you don't have to post fdk on the forum! If you enjoyed a story, but feel shy or awkward about posting your thoughts on it in public, there are very few authors out there who wouldn't be delighted to find feedback in their email. Which is another point. Just because you don't see someone posting fdk here, doesn't mean they haven't offered it. Perhaps they did in email or PM.

And, see, you were right. <g> Actually, to be honest, I really, really wish I could still drum up some interest in reading LNC fanfic.(Or, come to think of it, any fanfic. It's not just LNC. I haven't found any interest in reading Stargate or other fanfic for quite some time now, either) I really miss being involved in the fandom and this forum to that extent. Sometimes, I think I'm missing out on all the good fun. But I'm afraid the interest just isn't there, other than the occasional spark as mentioned above, and I simply can't force or fake it.


LabRat

Well, said, Arawn.


Oh, don’t get me wrong. I love my feedback, too. And it’s also not the reason I write, but yes, I’ll stick by my guns and say that sometimes the newer authors are ignored. (And me bringing this up isn’t the first time I’ve heard it. I’ve seen it in older threads, other boards / fandoms, and I’ve heard it in emails. I’ve even emailed a couple of people encouraging them to post their fics on this board, and I was told they were intimidated by the idea.) I’ve seen newer fics be posted and it may be awhile before anyone posts. A rare few don’t even get a nibble.


Even when I lurked, I often tried to tell authors that I liked their stories when I read them on the archive. Maybe I’m just different than most folks.


No, you misunderstand. I’m not suggesting they drop everything and read my stories or any other new authors. This idea about new authors being ignored was presented to me a few months ago. So I started watching. I haven’t read all the newer stories by newer authors, but I have from time to time checked feedback. I’ve found a pattern there - the one I’ve already mentioned. Now, if I had time, I’d like to do a statistical analysis of it, but hey.. I don’t.


More? Good gadfries, girl, that’s a lot of writing.


I have. And I’ve been watching.


Sure you did, Mrs. Mosley - Damn Good Thing. I read it, I know. (And I double checked to make sure you wrote it.)


Would an author really think this? I mean if you kept going on and on about the same story, it might be different, but would they really get upset about getting an email for each of their different stories?


Yes, I know, but some of them are long gone from the board, too.


Yes, Capes, this is one of the things I’m trying to say. For so many years, I read and read stuff on the archive (and here). Did I ever tell the authors how I felt about their stories? Rarely. Until recently, I think the only folks I’d ever emailed was Wendy and Nan. I’m ashamed of myself for doing that because I’ve read about ½ the stuff on the archive.


I totally understand this. I just see so many fics and I wonder if some folks even try to read a few paragraphs to see if it’s worth it?


Well, Labby, I ‘m not doubting that (I know you are busy), but this made a thought occur to me. If all the stories were posted without authors listed, then how would we choose our stories? I’m not suggesting this happen (I know that’s been done before, and I really don’t want to go there again.)

Yes, I know everyone is busy. I hope all of you haven’t taken this the wrong way, but it truly is something I wonder about. I wonder how many authors have just quit writing because no one has given them a nibble. (Of course there are a few writers that it might be better if they did stop. I think you know what I mean, LabRat. I just emailed you about it.)


Just think what might have happened if no one had given Sue S. a chance? We might not have had that soon to be classic Faustian Bargain. Yes, like I said, I understand the reasons, I just wanted to know if people realized they were not giving new authors a chance (evidently a lot of folks do). And I wasn’t suggesting that people should feel obliged to post feedback. I’m just saying that people should be more conscientious about it. If they *read* something, then why not post some little something - good or bad? And I know there are a lot of people who read but never post a thing. I know because I did it for years.


Exactly!! But you wouldn’t want just one new author ‘adopted’. I see that more as each reader adopting a person not the board adopting a new author. I just read two new stories last night - both from new authors. Of course one of them has been around the boards for a while, but I only found one other thing posted. Even if I don’t continue to read those stories, I gave them a shot - and I posted feedback. What I’m trying to say is that once in a while folks need to give the newbies a shot. Yes, I know everybody is busy, but the *next* time any of you are looking for some little vignette to read or some new story to read, then give a new guy a shot.


Yes, you are right. I’m just trying to encourage people to do so. I never realized the importance of it or the significance of it until I posted a story. I’m sure there are so many other people who feel the same. It is important!! New or old author - it’s important.


But I bet like most of us, all of you will one day again have your interest piqued. When it is, give a new author a shot. Okay? I do totally understand the above. I can’t for the life of me imagine reading anything Star Trek now.

I know you're making general points aimed at a number of people, Classicalla, but this seems directed to LabRat - and LabRat, I can assure you, had a reputation (when she was still reading L&C fic) of always reading new authors and posting encouraging feedback. So please don't blanket every old-timer with the same criticism, hmm? Thanks


Wendy

Speaking of "conversations." It seems to me like the fandom hit its peak maybe a year ago perhaps? I wonder about this because when I was searching for an answer to a fanfic related question, I had I ran into a bunch of really interesting discussions on the show, fanfic writing, fandom, etc. It seems for obvious reasons that the fandom in general was much more active (although I might be wrong in this impression). It's such a shame that a lot of those discussions don't happen so much any more. Either way you "old timers" were lucky to have had the chance to participate in so many great discussions

Nancy,

When I read this, I realized that my post might have been confusing. I didn't mean at all to suggest that you didn't appreciate the feedback you receive. Good heavens, no! My point was actually later in the paragraph, but my wording wasn't clear, and I do apologize for that.

I don't know that I agree with you completely on this issue. Or, rather, I agree that the situation probably exists to some extent, but I see it as a natural part of fandom - an initiation period for new authors, if you will. Those that stick around and prove themselves will build a following eventually, even if it doesn't happen with their first story.

That said, you've inspired me to be a better reviewer in the future. I'm planning to do quite a bit of catch-up reading when I finish the current WIP, and I hereby promise to review each author faithfully, either here or privately.

Best,

Caroline

I realize that no one is asking specifically why I am not posting, but I can only offer my perspective. Maybe elements of it also ring true for others.

My heyday in posting feedback was for about 18 months right after these boards opened in 2003. I had lurked on Zoom's since 2000, but had never posted feedback on any story. When these boards first opened I was very active. No, I didn't post feedback on every story, or every story part, but I commented on many of the stories posted. During this time, NEW authors included Lynn, CC, Elle, Sara, Roger, Jo, and Aria. I commented on stories by all.

Now I'm posting very little feedback at all. Some of the reasons are common to many people, some are reasons solely my own. I am highly embarrassed to admit that I only made 10 feedback posts in Fanfic in 2006; however, 5 were for stories posted by authors who will all be eligible in the New Author category this year. And ALL of my posts in nfic have been to authors new or almost-new to the fandom this year. That means 50% of my posts in Fanfic have been for stories by new authors. Admittedly, since the number is only 5 it's a pretty abysmal account. Most people would probably have said "Oh, Kathy almost never gives feedback anymore" and they'd be right, but it seems that when I actually do offer it, it's to comment on a new author as often as an old one.

When I was a "newbie" to posting I commented on many things, including stories by the new authors. Now the "newbies" to posting are commenting on many things, including the new authors. The same pattern holds.

Maybe many of you will continue to be prolific posters even after several years. I wish I could be, and one day I hope to be participating more again.

And on a different note:
It's taken me 40 minutes to write and rewrite this before hitting the ADD REPLY button. Maybe I do more editing than I need to (yes, I do realize that this isn't a letter being sent out to some important dignitary), but it's very important for me to try to explain my thoughts as clearly as possible. When you don't have the tonal qualities that color what is being said, misunderstandings can easily crop up. And they have - both for me and for posts that I have responded to - more than once, so I prefer to err on the side of caution. And I'm equally careful with a feedback post, since I am commenting on an author's "baby", and I want to say it "just right".

Kathy

Alcyone, I have thought the exact same thing. We do have some interesting conversations now (the Faustian FDK threads certainly spring to mind) but they don't seem to be as frequent or as varied as I have seen in older threads. Also I often run across stories in the archive that were in response to wildy varied challenges, and we don't seem to have that much lately either. When I see stuff like that I really regret that I wasn't in this fandom years ago to have been part of all that.

I haven't received any email from you, Nancy (yet), so to be honest I haven't the faintest idea what you mean by this. Although now I'm deeply intrigued.

But I have to say that I, personally, know of no authors who shouldn't be writing and posting here. If a writer is having fun making up stories and wants to share them with other fans, well done to them, I say!

One other thing I wanted to comment on and forgot to last time. The idea that these days it's only new readers who are commenting on new authors. (Sorry, I can't remember who it was who made this point.) Although I think this is true only up to a point, it seems to me to be not only entirely inevitable, but pretty normal, besides.

As you say, the bulk of old timers have moved on to other pursuits. A new influx of writers has come along. With them, has come a new influx of readers. We are, in effect, seeing the 'next generation' of the community interacting together.

So it seems obvious that these will be the people commenting on stories these days. The new FoLCs who are currently active. Just as we once had a group of people who wrote, read and commented, they have moved on and been replaced by a new group. Such is the way of forums and fandoms. I seriously doubt this forum is any different in that respect to the hundreds of others out there.


LabRat

No, I assure you, it wasn’t aimed at LabRat. It was aimed at *everyone* - not just the
‘icons’. I’ll reword it. (LabRat actually read one of my fics and she was very encouraging with my fledgling attempt.) Sorry, if you thought I was trying to ‘blanket’ the old timers. I wasn’t. It’s just something that I’ve been very curious about. And LabRat, if you thought this was directed at you, I apologize - profusely.


Yes, they were.

No, I didn’t think you did, but I just wanted to make sure no one else thought that was what I meant.


Thanks. I’m glad I inspired you.

This is good to hear that so much of your feedback has been for new authors, Kathy.


I can certainly understand this.

Yeah, think back to that beta I asked you about. I emailed you again.

I guess I was thinking about trying to read fics that totally don't make sense because of multiple inconsistencies. (I’ve actually rarely seen that.) Most authors go back and re-read and re-read and re-read their fics, and they work hard on them. But I have a read a *very* few that don’t do that, and if you ask them a question about what they mean, then they are clueless because they don’t even know what they wrote. That’s the kind of fic I was talking about.


You are right in what you said, LabRat. I was just curious as to what was happening, and if this was ‘usual’, and if so, why. I suppose these answers have explained a lot.

I'm not sure everyone would agree with the above, Nancy. Even in the days when I read every story posted, I always opted for it being nicer not to say anything than to say something "bad". A lot of fanfic authors write simply for fun. Unless specifically requested, I avoid negative fdk, because I respect the feelings of those who are more sensitive to criticism and who write just to write. I wouldn't want to spoil their fun.

So, I'll admit that some newer authors didn't/don't get fdk from me, like some older authors. But that's out of kindness. I'm not going to say something "mean". I'm just going to pass on the stories in the future.

I do this. But as I mentioned before, it's really hard to hold my attention these days. I imagine it's even harder with those who are not into LnC anymore at all and, as Labrat said, stay mainly for the friendly atmosphere.

Some new authors get discouraged, pack up their words and leave writing without realising that it takes time to build up a reputation by "word of internet". The "trickle down effect" which may not work so well in reality is a very apt principle in fandoms.

My advice to a new author is: if you want to have people give good fdk to your stories, try reading their stories and sending them fdk. It's no fair expecting fdk when you fail to send any yourself. It's also a good way to get to know other people in the fandom.

Additionally, I can't overstate the importance of beta-reading for canon issues and especially for grammar. Nothing kills my fanfic buzz faster than a string of grammatical errors or blatant canon violation.

I feel for good authors who somehow get overlooked. That's really too bad, and I wish we could find a way to avoid it. I do know how it feels to have your work overlooked so I empathise. I still maintain that the burden of encouraging new authors to post is on the anonymous readers who don't feel moved to send fdk, not on those who do already. They suffer just as much as anyone when new authors stop writing, and they have the power to fix it.

I have. I have also left comments for several of those authors. I usually read a lot during work however and don't always leave comments because while they don't care if I read stories they frown upon forum posting. I will sneak FDK for a few people here and there though if they produced a story that really hit me or if I think it is a great story and no one is reviewing at all. There are however a few authors that are new that I have read and don't really care for on their writing style. Not to say that is the case if someone hasn't gotten FDK from me but I don't normally go about naming them so as to not offend them.

In other cases I think there are a lot of new authors who have a lot of potential but need a good BR or two to help keep them on track to refine a few things. They have great stories and thoughts but their writing needs a bit of polishing. However, it is not really my place to step forward especially since I can't offer my time as that BR (to many obligations already and I'm terrible with comma usage). That would be the only time I would personally suggest it to anyone. Plus, people seem a bit touchy about their writing and I never know if they would take it as a genuine suggestion to help them improve or an insult. This being said we have a lot of great new authors but I think some of them need some work before they are Kerth award material in my eyes. But... it isn't my eyes who decide. ^_~ I'm just a random person who popped up a few months ago.

EDIT: and to clarify the above, I think with a bit of work we have a ton of people who are Kerth worthy. All our authors are awesome though and talented wonderful people and I am left in awe of them all daily. ^_^

Anyway, enough rambling about that. I'm not sure if I have read any of yours Classicalla but I will make sure that I do that this week.

Yes, I do this. And I’ve gained a reader or two by doing so.


Yes, I wholeheartedly agree, Capes. Bad grammar is one of my biggest hang-ups. (And I remember a rather lively discussion with you over grammar and whether it’s: Kryptonite or kryptonite. Thanks for the fond memories…)

And yes, I suppose if authors are going to ignore canon then they need to tell you that. I suppose the author shouldn’t assume that the reader will know the author knows or doesn’t know whether or not this is canon.


Well, I hope you guys don’t think I did this because I feel overlooked. I get some wonderful feedback, and I appreciate all of it. It’s just that I’ve been watching when other new authors post, and I was wondering if this was the typical phenomenon.


Yes, anonymous readers need to post. I for one am still I embarrassed because I lurked so long. There are so many stories that I wished I had posted feedback on.


Oh, yes, you are right. There are some authors that I also don’t care about. And some that have had good stories and have had others that are not. (And by the way, the authors I mentioned truly are the ones that I thought of off the top of my head.)


Okay, have I thoroughly ruffled everybody's feathers now?

Sometimes I reply to threads without considering my words (or current sobriety). Tonight I told myself that I didn't need to chime in, that I would only end up upsetting someone (even if it's just myself). But I'm going to say a few words and then hopefully read, re-read and edit liberally before I hit "add reply".

Years ago I wrote in another ficdom. It had been going strong for at least three years before I got there. It went on long after I lost interest. I don't read any of those stories anymore, nor do I have a desire to do so. I have two good friends from that long-ago era of my life that I still keep in touch with but our conversations have long since ceased to mention anything related to the fanfic we wrote.

Those two friends of mine encouraged me in a little experiment all those years ago. You see, after about a year of posting and writing my darndest I had reached the point where I felt accepted by the overall community. Not the "icons", but I'll get into that in a minute. But, and this was especially true of my early days there, it was *very hard-won*.

The eternal question of newbies being overlooked by the "icons" existed there. My friends and I knew that the bias existed, even though we had all finally clawed out our little niche. So I wrote a story, as a "newbie". It was carefully crafted (and smutty as all get-out). I kept it short (only five pages printed out). I fully expected that it would *bomb* big time. After all, only two people knew the real identity of the author and they were just dying to see me fail (we were weird that way). None of the other people who followed my stories knew I had written it.

That story caused ripples and debates because everyone was certain that it couldn't have been written by a true "newbie". The furor over "who wrote it?" was almost as gratifying as the feedback I received for it (and somewhat insulting since the possibility that I might have written it was discounted early in the guessing game). I honestly received more feedback for that story than any other I had written (or would write) in that fandom. To this day, I still get the occasional e-mail about it. To my utter delight I even heard from an "icon" about the story (one who never wrote me about any of my others - and who I heard through the grapevine was *distressed* to learn she had inadvertently praised me).

What I learned from that experiment was that, in the end, it's the story that matters. Is it hard to get noticed as a newbie? Oh, hell YES! In this ficdom my first story had multiple parts that didn't even get *one* comment. (The Next Step PG version: parts 2-5 had 0 replies. Nfic version: parts 3-6 and 8-10 had 0 replies) Some of that was my fault - I didn't realize then that the way to garner feedback is to deliberately withhold the story. Maybe I would have given up on writing if I were doing this solely for the FDK. Like Caroline said so astutely - I *write* the stories for me, I *post* them for the FDK.

I am a terrible person because I know how much that FDK means and I still am lazy about replying. Mostly it's because there's very little time in my day that can be spent on fanfic and I usually end up using that to either write, beta or both. So I tend to leave feedback on the stories that I read as a beta. I keep meaning to be better and read more so that I can support the people who have been so lovely and supportive of me, but the time just slips away.

If you're new and you're discouraged I can only offer my heartfelt hope that you'll continue writing and posting. I know it's a daunting thing to post a story. I still feel nauseated each time I post something (other than cheeky replies like this). Like Nancy said, just getting a smiley face can make your entire day. It's so nice to realize that there was someone else on the other side of the computer monitor who read your words and cared enough to take the time to reply. And, if they don't reply, or only a couple of people reply (as with my first story) just keep going. Write it for you. Get a beta. I put a plea for a beta out there when I was writing my first story and.... <crickets chirping> I finally had to start e-mailing others who were also looking for a beta before someone finally took pity on me.

My biggest piece of advice would be to write an nfic story. There are so many authors who post on the G side that it seems like everyone tends to get lost in the shuffle.

And now I've used up all my time for tonight. I should probably go back and re-read this but I'm too tired to see straight anymore. I hope I haven't upset or offended anyone - that was never my intent. This is such a wonderful little corner of the web and I count myself lucky to have found it.

Hehe… I do remember something about harshin’ my buzz.

Sue, as always, what you said was brilliant.

Sue, I enjoyed hearing about your fandom experiences, which were much like mine in the HP fandom (except that our BNA's - at least in my ship - weren't so catty, thankfully, and were actually quite kind and encouraging once one worked up the courage to get to know them). But I'd gone from a fandom where I was a decent-sized fish in a teeny tiny pond to HP, where I was...plankton, basically. With my first story there, I wrote my little heart out and had eight reviews at the end of the fourth chapter. That's pretty hard to do in a fandom that size. It was incredibly humbling, but I kept writing, and kept writing, 20-something chapters worth, and the story eventually did catch on and develop a following. With the next story, it was easier, and the one after that, easier still. It just sometimes takes a while.

Nancy,

I do see what you and Capes are getting at here, but the word "need" concerns me a little. There have always been anonymous readers of fan fiction and there always will be. If someone wants to read my stories and doesn't feel comfortable commenting, that's perfectly fine with me. I don't think the fact that I choose to write and post fan fiction should confer an obligation on someone else, especially if it's an obligation that for whatever reason makes them uncomfortable. There must have been a reason you lurked for nearly a decade. It might have been lack of time or shyness or a slow internet connection - I don't know you well enough to know - but the fact that you've now overcome whatever it was doesn't necessarily put everyone else in the same boat. Yes, it is lovely when someone de-lurks and lets me know he or she is following something I've written. Gives me a little thrill every single time. But I don't want someone making him or herself uncomfortable over it.

And I'm going to shut up now and go back to writing, which has kind of fallen to the wayside these last few days.

Best,

Caroline

Yeah, I'm afraid I don't reply as often as I could. Also, when I do, and this is just a note to the writers, I don't usually quote, but that's because I'm too lazy to use the quote thing for as many lines as I'd quote, so I usually just make quick comments about the story.

As far a s anonymous readers go, if you enjoyed something about the story, just post a quick message about it. The writers probably enjoy FDK as much from new posters as from the regulars.

Just catching up here with the December posts - so many interesting points.

Coming from the POV of a long time FoLC (think my first story was posted in 1998 or 1999), but definitely not one of the icons, I'm finding something paradoxical and ironic in the gist of these observations.

It seems all fandoms, based on what Sue has experienced elsewhere and what has happened in FoLCdom over the years, produce, at some times, in-groups and out-groups. Not sure why that happens, but it does, although those who are in the in-group always deny that there is an in-group while those who are not "in", ask the question, "So why do I feel like chopped liver then?" (sounds a tad Catch 22 ish, I know )

So here we go again, this time the newbies/icons aspect being an added twist.

My thought, though, is that *now* I am a newbie. It occurred to me, as I read through the December part of this thread, that nearly all of the people who now post regularly in the fanfic & fanfic related folders have never, as far as I know, read my stories and so were I ever to manage to write again, I'd be writing as a new author.

So that makes me a newbie.

Also wanted to second the points made about "time" to read and comment.

Also, there's the whole issue of "genre preference" that influences reading and feedback, too. (e.g. Will Tank ever read a long fic that has kids in it??? )

c.

Ican't say I've read all your stories, Carol, but I did just read Yesterday, Upon the Stair today and my thought as I finished was, were it not for copyrights and all, you could have turned that into a stand-alone novel (you'd have to add a bit of background) and gotten money out of it. Wonderful mix between regular LnC action and that philosophical touch which adds some depth. Good job.

Anyway, the reason I mentioned that is that I started reading LnC fanfic only in the last year or so, and starting posting here only about 5 months ago. So I'm certainly a newbie, but I've been reading as much as I can to get a reference point for the discussions. I've probably read over 50% of the shorter fics, and 40-50% of the longer ones.

I don't feel as though there's any in-group here. I don't know most of you as well you know each other, but in discussions, there seems to be a feel of equality.

Woody, you've made my day ! Thank-you.

I agree with you - there's been quite a change in these boards in the last year, I think, and it's due to all those people who have called themselves "newbies" - there's a respect for a diversity of opinion and certainly some outstanding new fics.

That's quite a lot of reading you've done, btw.

c.

Almost sounds as if that respect didn't exist last year, Carol.

I'm just back from a long hiatus from all things online, and I'm delighted to find the same friendly atmosphere here that I unwillingly left (because work got in the way :p )

The thing is, I'm not sure whether I'm considered an old-timer or not, or whether I'm part of what you call the "in-crowd", but I know I used to be a newbie, just like everyone else. And when I was a newbie, the fanfic "icons" of that time welcomed me with open arms, although they didn't know me at all. They were very encouraging and helpful, and I truly appreciated that. That's why I don't really understand the concept of in-crowd being exclusive. I never felt things were like that here. Quite the opposite.

Just my 2 cents' worth.

Kaethel (old newbie... new oldie...)

Wow, it's interesting how this thread has morphed.

Sad to say, in the past it has been hard for me to read new authors. Nothing against anyone, but I was burned a few times by authors who never finished their stories for one reason or another, or for new authors that could have seriously benefited from a beta. So much that I was wincing and couldn't read more than a paragraph. After that, I depended on word of mouth to decide if I should read a new author. And, of course, the Kerth nomination list.

I apologize to all of those authors.

In the past year or so, though, I've fallen into the same category as Labrat. My attention has wandered on to other fandoms. Even there, I'm not reading as voraciously as I have in the past. (Yeah, being burned here is NOTHING compared to being burned in a new fandom that doesn't have the respect for rules that we have here.) I'm finding that in both fandoms, I'm following a handful of authors whom I have read in the past and enjoyed their stories, and are still posting. I also find myself reading older stories that I read years ago and enjoyed very much. (Reasons why I totally love the guess the fic threads)

Back when I was new (oh how many years ago that was), I found that all of the icons were very friendly, and welcomed people with open arms. When I first hopped on IRC, I was amazed at just how friendly they were, and down to earth, especially with new people coming in going "OMG, I'm actually talking to <author>!" Sadly, the hallowed halls ring with silence as people move on, but I'm still seeing this wonderful friendly atmosphere continue on the boards. *pets fandom*

*I* don't know that they do. I think I probably know most of the icons/old timers, and I can't think of one who has a deliberate policy of not reading newer authors. They might read and not comment, but that's a different thing.

The other thing I wanted to say touches on a comment someone said about the next generation of authors and readers. It's been lovely to watch the next generation arrive on the boards, post and read stories, and strike up friendships. You can see the evidence of those friendships in the way people interact with each other on the boards, and I think that's just wonderful. To think that these boards may have contributed towards bringing people together who might not otherwise have met makes me very proud.

One last thing. Sue described her experiment in anonymous writing. We did a similar thing here a while back, and it was great fun and quite interesting. So far as I remember, there were certain rules on story content that we all had to follow, and then the stories were all posted anonymously and people had to try and guess who wrote what. I don't remember the results exactly, but I'm pretty certain there was a lot of incorrect guesswork going on, and that some of the guesses were for authors who hadn't even written a story. Of course, this doesn't prove or disprove the issue of newbie-dom, but it did show that author style is a tricky thing to spot.

Yvonne

Okay, I've been reading this thread for the past few days - just glancing at snippets really - and said I was totally going to keep my mouth shut and my opinions to myself... but, well... here I am.

I personally have to say that if it weren't for several of the oldie/icons here, that I might never have posted my first story.

I've "officially" been here since March, although I lurked here since January, and I still very much consider myself to be a "newbie" . While I lurked, I watched, read, and observed... until I finally thought I might give it a shot.

But I knew there was no way I was going to post anything unbeta'd. I managed to plead my case with one of those people I would consider to be an 'icon' to beta my very first story. I had tried soliciting a beta without any success, and was getting downheartened. I liked this author's fics and thought she was a real sweetheart, so I begged her to read for me... and she did.

*cough*thankyounan*cough*

In the meantime, I also was blessed to pick Sue up as a beta reader (actually she saw my original plea and volunteered - poor thing ). Little did I know at the time just what I had inadvertently stumbled upon. Ahh, the joys of 'dumb luck'.

But anyway, back on subject. My first story was short, but the fdk I received on it - both from oldies and newbies - encouraged me to continue. Then with my next story, which was considerably longer, I actually got unsolicited comments from two of the "oldies" (thank you Labby and Pam) the comments were encouraging... but they also explained how busy they were and that they might not have time to follow the story.

I think that is where a lot of the problem lies - because of RL issues I would say that most of us don't have the kind of time it takes to follow every story that's being posted - even if we want to.

I know I sure don't. I'm beta reading for 4 different people, and I have two muses sitting on my shoulders vying for attention (writing and vidding). Between that and RL stuff going on, I find very little time to read. I try to catch the vignettes, because I know I have time for those, and every so often I start a multi-part story, if it intrigues me. That's nothing against any of the old or new authors out there. It's simply due to a lack of time. I don't look for stories based on whether the author is an oldie or newbie. I look for stories based on what the story is about. One longer story I happen to be following now is (I believe) a new author's first story posted on these boards. I took a chance on it and was hooked.

I do try to leave fdk when I can. If you've written a story (or more than one) and I haven't commented, or have yet to do so, I'm deeply apologetic. One day I'll run out of things to write or create and I'll have oodles of time to get caught up on everyone else's stuff.

But please don't ever stop writing or creating! That's what makes this place so wonderful. The diversity of creative works and the warm, friendly atmosphere.

I, for one, feel so fortunate to call this place "home" for my creative outlet. I couldn't have found a better fandom to have landed in and put down roots in.

Okay, I'm shutting up now...

-- MR

Think that's a bit unfair, K.

My point was about the new energy and interest the so called "newbies' have brought to the boards and how that's affected things. There's been a revitalization, imo. And also, because of that, how oldies like me are now newbies.

c.

Absolutely! As the 'old group' began to move on - almost en masse, which was a tad unfortunate - there was a very short period when things went very quiet and almost died. Then, along came a new group - almost en masse <G> - and it's been a real pleasure to watch them have the same fun we did. To see them revitalise the forum, discover and explore the show as we once did, all of it fresh and new to them.

In particular, I've enjoyed the fact that there have been interesting discussions on the show in the LNC thread, again. A couple of you mentioned that there are few discussion threads to match those of the old days. But what's stopping you from starting some? I'd definitely like to see more in that vein.

Same thing with challenges. It's been terrific to see that folder explode over recent months with so many fresh ideas. And, btw, if you liked a challenge from the old days, there's no rule to say you can't bring it back up. Just credit the original challenger. With such an influx of new authors on the forum, old challenges can take on a whole new lease of life when explored from a new perspective.

LabRat

Karen said:

Just couldn't resist this one. I did that. I tried IRC in 2002, had my own "omg I'm talking to..." Anyway, I had a heart attack and didn't try IRC again til 2003. And looking back now, I can easily say, it was just Pam Jernigan, get a grip, girl! But I think the point I've learned over the years is that all of these 'icons'...well, they all put on pants one leg a time same as we do! And trust me, if there's an in-crowd, I missed the gathering! I've been in the out-crowd since the third grade; I'm usually more up on these things.

And Carol made my comment of the day:
Ok I have to admit, back in the 'peak' if we're going to talk about peaks, I knew when I got feedback, it was going to be the same people. They knew what kind of story I was going to write before they even opened the thread. And now I talk to people, and it's like, "Well are you going to nfic this?" Errr no, that's not really my area... "Sounds like a two-parter here!" Errr...welll... I'm just waiting for someone to email me and finally say, "Well what *do* you write?" But honestly, I've loved every minute of the new people. It's fun to pick up a new reader or two along the way! And even though my own hey-dey is hitting a low right now, I'd swear I've never seen so much enthusiasm from other people, and it's one of the reasons why I still nose around even if I stay fanfic'ed out.

JD

I've only posted a few short vignettes and I don't really consider myself a fanfic writer. Sometimes I just have an idea and need to get it down on paper, but it's usually very short. I can't imagine sitting down and plotting a multi-part story (but never say never ).

I was just blown away by the feedback that my vignettes generated, and many of the comments came from these so-called "icons." So I can't say that I feel that I wasn't given a chance by the people who've been around this boards for a long time.

I didn’t mean this word in such a way as to confer the suggestion of an obligation. It would be nice if they posted.


Shyness to the extreme. (As if anyone would believe that now since I have a big mouth.)


Bingo. You got it, CC. (Yes, I know. Flog me now. But like I said, I’ve been lurking a looonnnnggg time.) I’m not so sure there is such a feeling of an in-group these days, though. I used to have those feelings a lot more. (And that may have been one of the reasons I lurked for so long. I felt I couldn’t possibly be accepted, but that was from my own short comings.) And then as I read more on this thread I see that CC has mirrored my words:

I don’t particularly think CC meant that they weren’t friendly before, I think she meant more that they might be friendlier now , Kaethel. (And darn it all if I could get that comma to go in the right place. Sorry.) Remember that there were reasons that the boards split. (Okay, slap me now.)


Yeah, he’d throw ‘em all into a pool of magma or some such with no redemption.

I believe I read The Red Skirt, CC. And Yesterday Upon the Stair is on my ‘list’. It comes highly recommended.


There are lots of vignettes, too, Karen. But what do you mean, ‘word of mouth’. Do you mean the IRC?


I never meant to insinuate that it was done on purpose (or not always, anyway). And besides you post on newbies, Yvonne. (And it’s very much appreciated, and I’d give a bet to say that I’m not the only one that thinks so.)


Interesting, huh? Hmmm…. maybe that should be done again. But maybe somebody ought to do that and not tell anybody. (Has that ever been done?)


Yes, so do I, DJ. But like I said, I’ve been watching this for a while, and this is not the trend I see happening from most folks. And yes, I guess a lot of this is based on friendship. If we hadn’t written a fic together, I’m not sure I would have read one of your fics back in in the summer. (And I would have been missing out on a lot.) I’ve since changed my tactics. I don’t just look for the fics with authors that I recognize. Unfortunately, I’ve read a couple of stories that have caused me not to return to that author, and I shouldn’t do that either since every story is different. (I hear I’m missing a good story because of that, and I’m going to give it another try.)


Yes, DJ, I realize that you are busy, but you have actually left me feedback… (Thanks)


You may actually have just answered all of this LabRat. So why did the oldies move on - almost en masse? Was part of that because the boards split? (I suspect that it was.)


Weellll….. (Does this count?)


One thing I want to say is that when I started all this, I was NOT begging for feedback. I think some folks have thought that, but I think I get pretty decent feedback. I truly wanted to know why it seemed that for the most part (not always) newbies weren’t getting much feedback. I for one appreciate being told that someone doesn’t want to read my story and why. (And I have been told that by folks.) I guess not everyone would want to be told that, though.

Thanks for putting up with my ramblings, guys.

I think that the fact this thread has had at least three different topics says a lot about the interesting discussions part.

I swear that last night, when I wrote and rewrote the dang thing five times, that my comments didn't read so much like "please give me a pat on the back, I give feedback to new authors" as they do now! Sorry about that!

But keeping up with the statistics angle... I looked at the first two pages in the Fanfic TOC section. There are 99 topics, dating back to August 3. Each one is, obviously, for the recent stories posted to the Fanfic section. It doesn't cover all, of course - for example, Nan, Jenni and Rac have all posted story parts in this time period, but their TOC threads are older than August. So with a few exceptions, it's pretty representative of the stories or story parts that have been posted within the last 4 months.

Of those 99, 29 are stories by authors who have been around for a year or more. 70 are by "newbies".

That's a very strong skew in favor of the newcomers to this part of the L&C fandom. You guys are the predominant ones doing it all these days: writing and offering feedback. As others have said, maybe this is just the natural cycle of many a fandom.

Kathy

Nope. You'd suspect entirely wrongly there, Nancy. I'm talking about a year or so back, relatively recently. Long after these boards were set up. Nothing to do with the split. And mostly it was just ill circumstance, a lot of different reasons coming together at the same time by chance. No plan, no huge event that precipitated it. Mostly it's just been a natural progression to moving on to other fandoms, other interests. Or other venues.

I understand, for example, that irc has gone quiet and many of the old timers who used to hang out there don't any more because they've mostly moved on to using Messenger to chat with instead. Again, there was no group concensus on that, it just happened that bit by bit they drifted over, in ones and twos, mostly without knowing till they got there that others were doing the same.

It happens. People move on to other things. It was just a little unfortunate that many of them moved on at roughly the same time and that most of them were some of the fandom's most prolific authors.

But I think the reasons they moved on were pretty varied. Some are writing for other fandoms now, some have just lost interest in writing/reading as I have, but still hang out here for the company, to varying degrees.

Just realised that there is, of course, a typo in my last post - the bit you quoted, Nancy, about discussion threads. I meant, of course, I was enjoying the recent discussions in the LNC folder. Not the LNC thread. :rolleyes: So, keep up the good work there, guys.

LabRat

Pretty much. I'd be sitting on IRC, and someone would say "Have you read this story by this author? It's really good! I like how..." and so of course, I'd have to go read it.

<insert rambling bit about people wandering, but I see Labrat's already posted. >

Which reminds me of something else I wanted to address from much further back in the thread and which I forgot to mention.

Someone mentioned that oftentimes 'icons' only post feedback on a story when another 'icon' does so first. They follow the herd, IOW. But that is naturally explained by Karen above. It's not unheard of for someone to post feedback on a story then email the rest of their group of friends to say, "Wow! I've just caught this on the mbs - you HAVE to read it! It's terrific!". And then everyone checks it out...and more feedback naturally ensues.

And that same word of mouth process has operated for years on irc, as Karen says. Fanfic was always a hot topic of conversations in #loisclark. Word of mouth recommendations are a natural part of FoLCdom and always have been.

I don't think this is a process that's restricted to 'icons' either. I'd be mighty surprised if all you newbies weren't telling all your friends about your latest great fanfic find here on the forum.

Which is, of course, one way that new authors gain a reputation for good writing and garner more readers as they post each new story.

LabRat (who is now going to go to bed and try and get some sleep, considering it's just after 4 am now... <g>)

Yes - it's no secret to those who've been around a while that I've done it a couple of times. Once was a genuine experiment; I was getting good feedback as myself, and I wanted to see for myself whether a complete newbie would get feedback. So I posted a story under the nick Jane Doe. It got great feedback. I confessed my identity once it was all posted - I think I'd managed to fool just about everyone.

Did it again in nfic, posting some pure smut vignettes as Cat Grant - mainly, then, because even though I wrote them they weren't my favourite sort of writing. Maybe I was just a little bit embarrassed about them - I don't know. I think I did 'come out' about that being me eventually.

And there is one nfic, originally posted on Zoomway's message boards and still hosted on Annesplace, under a pseudonym, that I wrote and, to the best of my knowledge, hardly anyone knows is mine. That - to my amazement, given its subject-matter - got excellent feedback.

I think in general this fandom is pretty welcoming to newbies... And, let's face it, LynnM's, Dave's and CC Aiken's popularity attests to that. The three of them are very, very recent additions to FoLC fanfic-writing. You've just been unlucky enough, as LabRat's said and Kathy's shown, to join at a time when so many of the long-standing writers have moved on to other things.


Wendy

I didn’t think that at all, Kathy. Really, I didn’t. I’m glad that you said that.

Yes, you might be right. And you probably are. Very interesting. That explains a lot to me.

Well, I don’t mean to be dumb here, but I lost you… Do you mean the LNC forum?

And by #loisclark do you mean the IRC or the Yahoo group?

I feel for your days and nights being so turned around.


Wendy, are you sure we can't twist your arm a little and get you to give us a little fic? How about a DW cross-over? (That would be awesome.) Or have you done that, and I missed it?

I agree, Caroline. But I was responding to what I perceived as criticism of those who do choose to post fdk. If there is a derth of fdk, it can't just be blamed on those who have already put in their time over the years giving out fdk. It also has to include those who, for whatever reason, didn't choose to give fdk. It's their right, but it's also their loss too so they need to share in the blame if it's being doled out.

I do think a new wave is moving in here, and while it makes me sad to see people I admire and respect move on, I'm also happy that the fandom continues. What excites me most is that many of the "moved on" still visit occasionally and often take part in off-topic discussions on writing in general and so forth. I value their insights into the process; just being in this fandom has greatly enhanced my authorial skills--although it has also shown me that fanfic is NOT my forte so it's a good thing I wasn't planning on making a living with it!

And as far as word-of-mouth on IRC, I discovered all the new authors Wendy referred to in her post via that medium. I'm so glad they let me in on the greatest stories I'd never read

The LNC folder in this forum. The one between FoLC Productions and Off Topic.

#loisclark is an irc channel.

LabRat

Thanks, LabRat! From your post time, it sure doesn't look like you got much sleep.

(Oh, and did you get the email this time?)

Darned if I didn't try to do this a year or so back... I used to not read stories on the boards at all, then, for various reasons, I started to and it was all downhill from there.

Anyway, I know I'd always make an effort give new authors a chance and give feedback. My reasoning? Honestly, one of the biggest reasons was trying to prolong the life of my beloved fandom. I'd see a "newbie" post, and I'd think FRESH MEAT! I've got to make them feel welcome! Gotta make them realize that FoLCdom is the best and that they have to stay forever and ever! (And did I mention I'm running on four hours of sleep after wrapping up the semester, so I might sound... crazy?) I really, really love that I don't have to worry about this anymore; we're obviously not going anywhere, and we keep growing!

Now, this isn't to say I've stopped giving new authors a chance and feedback because of the above reasoning (if I can claim "reason" in insanity... ). My problem now is time, for one. But mainly my problem is there's just SO much! I dare say a year or so ago, I might have been able to keep up with all the WIPs being posted. Now I have no chance. (Not to mention school's really been kicking my butt lately...) I LOVE seeing the fandom so thriving, but at the same time, I'm so sad that I'm even more utterly behind on reading than I was before. There are some newer authors out there whose stories I've peeked at or heard good things about, and I'm dying to read them when I've got the time (YAY for winter break starting yesterday!). Classicalla, MetroRhodes, LaraMoon, Caroline's got a WIP out (I heart Caroline! ), basaki (I read the first few paragraphs of Seven Seconds and am eager to read the rest!), off the top of my head. Oh, and I've been meaning for ages to read stuff by LoisLaneWannaBe and Terry Leatherwood. I really ought to write down a list...

Yeah, and I'm just rambling now because it's after 3am, I'm low on sleep, and I've been going through fandom withdrawal these past few weeks with the culmination of the semester. I've missed you guys!

Sara (who, now she's got three weeks off, is gonna have a hard time deciding between reading, writing and trailering *sigh*)

P.S. Did the UK "pants" question ever get answered? I *think* I caught up with the whole thread...

Whoops, I forgot to answer before. Yes, "pants" in the UK means underwear.

Actually, these days, 'pants' has also become a derogatory term in the UK. If you say something is pants, you mean it's not very good. Personally, I think it's a daft and nonsensical use of the word, but I'm clearly in a minority.

Yvonne

As someone that has been part of this community since around 97, I may not be an 'icon', but I have been around...

I used to read everything put out, then about the time our first child turned one, time started to get shorter. By the time our second child turned one, reading time was just impossible. However, I tried to at least keep up with my favorites, like Nan Smith (whoa, now there is a shocker! ).

Then I got hit by the writing bug, again, about 2 years ago. My problem is that I have great ideas, but I am not very good at putting them down on paper. DJ is helping me with my latest attempt (part 2 should be done today) and she is being very encouraging. Anyway...(darn mental rabbits!) I have found that I cannot be reading avidly and still be able to write. It's weird but true. I really am trying hard to get this story done and so I have cut back my reading to practically nothing. (anything by Nan is a must read for me, everyone else has to fend for themselves) I will still read the odd vignette or really short story, but I don't have the time to read epics (yes, I am currently reading LabRat's Masques, but not at the voracious rate I usually read fanfic, only about 4 pages a day, which should get my own story betaed, completed, posted, and archived by the time I finish it. )

So, does anyone else have the issue where if they are seriously getting writing done that they can't seem to read as much?

James

Oh good... <DJ rubs her hands together>

Yes, I have that problem... reading while writing. If I want to get any significant chunk of writing done, that leaves me very little time to do any reading. And since I am a beta reader for several people and am reading their stories, that cuts on down my reading time even further.

I did get sucked into a longer fic recently (Darkest Dreams). I knew I shouldn't have started it when I did, because I really didn't have the time. But darn it all if it didn't suck me in and knock me on my butt. It's the only story I have time to follow right now, though, on top of everything else.

<DJ stumbles out of thread mumbling "too much to do - too much to do... shouldn't have even posted this...">

P.S. - Oh, and thanks for the mention, Sara, I'm totally blushing!

Absolutely. I especially can't read in the fandom I'm writing in, though I will sometimes take a break and read in other fandoms. But if I'm writing L&C fic, I can't seriously read it at the same time. A vignette here and there, maybe, but not a longer work. It messes with my head. And my characterization. I just can't go from someone else's long work and jump back into my own. I admire authors who can, but I never have been able to, even when I had slightly more time for fandom than I have now.

And time, of course, is a big factor, too. I have a tiny little window of time to devote to fandom these days, and I can either use it to write or use it to read and do other things (like posting here). I simply don't have time to do both.

Best,

Caroline

D8a, while I don't write for this fandom (yet) when I was trying to take on NaNoWriMo I too found that I didn't have as much time.

But, I can't say anything about other writers. While people in other fandoms have usually liked what I have written, I don't feel that I am a natural writer and I struggle over every word that I type. I have a tiny part of one story for this fandom and for the life of me...

*hides from Queen of Capes on this next part of the sentence
5. LOVE WHAT YOU DO: Most importantly, write because you love it and not because you want FDK. If you aren't loving what you write, 9 times out of 10 we aren't either.

Any other tips out there from people who actually write in this fandom?

You offer some good advice, Jojo.

I have known readers through the years who've refused to give feedback a second time to authors who don't respond to their feedback threads. Readers need to feel appreciated just as much as authors do. Even if it's nothing more than a quick 'Thanks for all the feedback. I really appreciate it.' Personally, for myself, I always found it wonderfully stimulating, interesting and just plain fun to respond fully to fdk - the to and fro with readers' comments/suggestions/opinions was very enjoyable.

While authors may feel they have a legitimate reason for ignoring feedback - I know of at least one author who has a self-confessed superstitious fear of replying to their fdk thread in case it stops the fdk cold - not responding is often seen as being rude or not appreciative that readers have taken time to post their thoughts on your story. A quick thanks goes a long way.

And I'd definitely second that don't post your story too fast. That's a big one. Play hard to get a little. Don't rush to give your readers all they want, when they want it. Don't leave them hanging too long, but I'd say at least 24 hours between posts will garner you more fdk than if you rush to post several parts all in the same day.

Regarding listening to suggestions from readers - don't feel obliged to change your story because of something said in fdk. It's your story, no one else's, and most important of all is that you are happy with it. But it's always a good idea to be gracious in listening to suggestions and if 99% of readers have the same suggestion or reservation about something you've written, you know, maybe they're on to something. <g> Anyway, that kind of discussion/debate fdk has always been the biggest part of the fun of posting a story on the forum, for me. So long as you understand that you don't have to accept them, you can have enormous fun debating them with your readers.

LabRat

Y'know, reading through this, a thought occurred (rare, but true) -- when we're talking about "a year ago" having seen a dearth (well, dip) in writing/posting/commenting... well, a year ago, a lot of us were writing for the fundraiser DVD. So all that fanfic-related effort was going on, it was just effectively invisible. And given the nature of the project, it sucked in a fair number of "icons" and consumed the time they already didn't have much of.

I'm looking forward to being able to actually *post* my story somewhere. I'm glad to have contributed to the fundraiser, but I got very little feedback. I believe the organizers have said DVD fics should be exclusive for at least a year, so maybe next April lots of stories will just appear as if by magic... when their authors are finally allowed to post them. That'll be fun

I have been aware that I've got reduced time and interest in L&C fic, for maybe the last year... it's been a gradual change. But as LabRat said, that hasn't got a thing to do with the boards split, and if you're thinking of the same "icons" I'm thinking of, then I'm confident it hasn't affected any of them that way, either. See, we're of the opinion that we *won* that fight by refusing to fight, and just leaving instead, and were just delirious with joy to have these brand-new boards to play in. These boards, actually, kept a lot of writers in the fandom by providing an alternative to Zoom's boards, which were kinda hostile at the time.

Oh, and I gotta tell you -- it's seriously weird to have someone get all excited about meeting you (I understand it, I guess, 'cause I've done it myself, but it's still seriously weird). Fun for a little while but I much prefer hanging out with friends, rather than groupies. Thankfully, I haven't had many of those!

I hope I've been friendly with everyone and that no one thought I was snooty. (What I am is *snarky* which anyone can tell you ).

What I *also* am at the moment is rambling, so I think I should shut up now. Besides, these people who pay me money to sit at a desk 40 hours a week actually expect me to work! Imagine!

PJ

I can't take any credit for the "don't give them everything at once" method for receiving feedback. I owe it all to Anne (ACDrift) who actually made me do *homework* just as I was about to start posting Faustian to learn how often to post.

The nfic FDK threads for Faustian still leave me in slack-jawed amazement. They took on a life of their own and, while I had a blast responding to the comments and shennanigans that went on in them, they were certainly more due to everyone else debating and teasing and wheedling and just generally having the party that Jojo described.

I don't know how to replicate that. I think a lot of it was just pure dumb luck - the right place, the right story and the right time (ie, summer vacation).

Most of all, though, it was the readers that made those threads what they were. If you have enough outspoken, fun-loving readers replying to a story it can't help but become a party.



ETA: I didn't change Faustian in spite of several opinions sent to me both on and off the list regarding plot points. There was a certain sadistic glee inherent in knowing what was going to happen and how upset everyone was going to be.

This is completely off topic, but, then again, most of this thread is anyway!

Can someone please tell us what the fight was about in the first place? I know that I am not the only newbie absolutely dying of curiousity concerning what caused the schism.

EDIT: Question retracted.

I know I am not a moderator, but just a citizen of this board, but... please DON'T Respond to this request here, I beg you.


Do it PM or by email. Some members of the other board are also members of this board and I, for one, have been enjoying this thread, as is. I don't want a rehash of what I think was one of the most miserable times of my life in this community!

James

Heh - and I was lucky enough to get to share in that glee Although you don't know how many times I had to bite my tongue... and how hard it was...

(Oh, and Lisa, I have heard things "through the grapevine" but I'm not in a position to comment on them since I wasn't here.)

-- MR

Whoops, sorry! Didn't mean to step on any toes. (Although apparently I am pretty good at that.)

I will officially never write anything ever again if I can't make myself stay away from this thread...

*applauds*

Yes, yes, yes.

I loved all your suggestions, Jojo, but that's my favorite. The writer's love for what they're doing and love of the characters shines through in the writing. It even has the power to overcome some technical imperfections, I believe.

Re: responding to feedback. I do try to respond to feedback, though perhaps not as assiduously as some of the others writing here. I always respond if asked a question, however, or if I feel a point needs clarification, and I try to thank those who take time to review, because I know it does take time and effort.

However, we carry things with us sometimes from one fandom to the next, and I've picked up one (probably nutty) thing in my travels that sometimes deters me from responding to my own feedback threads. One of the fandoms in which I've been peripherally involved prides itself on being Very Very Polite. This manifests itself in a number of ways, but one of them is the firm belief that every author should have a chance to have his or her story at the top of the board for a reasonable amount of time. So not only is daily posting considered bad form, it's expressly forbidden. If you post more than once every three days (I think that's the number) your post gets yanked and you get put on some sort of probation.

I've never even posted a WIP in that fandom, but I've hung around enough to have the idea burned into my brain that burying someone else's story on the boards is impolite. So if I go to respond to one of my FDK threads, and I see that someone else has just updated a story, I'll often decide just to wait rather than to push my FDK thread to the top by replying. I do realize that most people here probably think that's completely crazy, but I thought I'd throw it out there just because LabRat's post made me think of it.

And also, on a somewhat related note, is there some reason there couldn't be separate sections for FDK and stories? I've always wondered about that, and it was one of the few things I found very confusing about this board when I first came here. The blue arrow helps, of course, but it sure seems like it would be simpler to have stories in one forum and FDK in another.

Caroline

No toes stepped on.

James

I am a member of both boards and made a point of staying completely out of the disagreement, so I'm not entirely sure what it was all about, although I have a few ideas. In any case, I'd rather not rehash any of it. It wasn't pleasant, and I have friends in both places.

Nan

Another fandom that I am part of recently did the same thing. They made one forum for Fic and one for FDK. I really thought it was a good idea.

James

*grumbles at Sue and her love of being evil*

Actually I should probably grumble at you more for spreading that evil influence over to people you beta for.

*glares at DJ*

What Sue was really trying to say is the more you torture and delight in your readers "misery" (or pretend misery since we all loved every minute of it) the more FDK you will get. Haha... (Just playing with you Sue and DJ I adore your evil streaks. *hands you some pitch forks and pointy pointy beards and horns to wear*)

Caroline: It's amazing the habits we all pick up from other places. I was actually quite confused by the FDK system here when I first popped in. I had never been on a board like this before. Most of my experience has been through places like ff.net or live journal communities. So it took me a bit of time to get used to it. One thing I do in order to find all the stories is to go to the TOC boards. That way I can easily find all the chapters and FDK threads. It's the only way I can keep things straight sometime.

So authors should always add their story there so we can keep up with them easily.

Actually I would find this helpful, too.

The TOC forums are kind of like a "stories only" forum, but, while very useful, they aren't perfect because the most recent updates don't go to the top.

Why did the boards split? Short version: It seemed like a good idea at the time

I'm sorry, James, but I have to say something. It's incorrect to think of it as one big fight. It was a series of stupid little ones that flared out of control, and two fairly distinct groups emerged. There'd be a spirited discussion, with maybe a few people being nasty (or perceived as being, which is effectively the same). That would simmer down, but... when the next disagreement came, it reminded everyone of the last flap, and the same two sides (more or less) would end up shouting at each other. I could tell you what the fights were about, but that's really not important any more; when tempers are hot enough, any provocation will do.

That went on (intermittantly) for about 18 months. Oh, plus the end of that was March/April 2003, and there was a lot of Iraq-related tension that wasn't directly related but had lots of people on edge. When everyone was sick enough of the sniping, a group of us started talking about just opening our own boards and getting out of a bad situation. It seemed like the two groups were not going to be able to co-exist peacefully, and it's a big Internet, so... we came here. We were very worried we'd be seen as "the bad guys" but decided that it was worth the risk, because we just couldn't stay where we were.

So, if we admins are sometimes a little paranoid about the possibility of lively threads getting nasty, it's 'cause we've been there, done that, did *not* like it one bit.

PJ

I second that. And something I try to do (since TOC's can get buried too, when many new stories are being added) is add a link to the TOC at the top of each new part of the story as I post it.

I don't know if that helps or not - no one's ever told me.

But that way if someone sees that part 4 has been posted and think to themselves "part 4? - what happened to part 3?" - they can click on the link to the TOC and catch up from there.

-- MR

I did that, at first, oh so long ago, but it was very time consuming to me and I wimped out...

James

I completely agree. What I don't agree with is what I've seen of people saying things along the lines of "I don't like where this seems to be heading, so I don't think I'm going to read any more." I understand that other people might not think it's that big of a deal but it really, really irks me.

That sort of thing kills me because (1)the poster isn't letting the writer finish the story before judging it and (2)even the story seems to incorporate elements the reader really can't handle, to post something like that seems really rude. After all, what is the expectation? That the writer will somehow change everything for that reader? That the writer will be comforted by knowing that the reader left because they didn't like the direction of the story (as opposed to writing style, etc)? That sort of thing would be better off done through email/private message than posted on a public board.

I love debate, but I am also really respectful of writers, especially, and the time and effort they put into their stories (even if I fall under the feedback delinquent category *blush*). I understand that writers (or am under the impression) write first for themselves and *then* are kind enough to share it with me. Just that makes me always give the writer the benefit of the doubt when I approach their story--I'm looking at how they see things and I take for granted it won't be 100% in line with how I see things. If I have any opinions about a story, something that didn't appeal to me, etc, then I try to be open and if that doesn't work, then I quietly leave or if it's a little thing in a mountain of goodness then I mention it tactfully while focusing on the good. It's okay to say X aspect wasn't my cup of tea, but to flamboyantly announce your exit and wave it in a writer's face just seems really insensitive.

About the split: (well not really about the split, itself - I couldn't support James's plea more )

I still mourn the split.

Pam said:
respectfully, I disagree - I still feel both sides were diminished.

anyway, back to the festivities

c.

I totally agree. That to me isn't criticism anymore but just being rude. There is a line that has to be drawn and even when giving a critic of a story you should always be polite and tactful and also praise them for their strong points.

I also agree that you should always write in the direction you want to take the story. But, keep in mind that some people are always going to suggest you do one thing or the other with a story. Why? Because some people love the story so much that they think about it in their spare time and wonder, "What's gonna happen next?" and sometimes we voice what we think might happen or how we invision it going down. It doesn't mean the author has to change it but sometimes there might be a little something in those request that will spark something in your mind and make you think... "Now maybe that was a good idea." There isn't any harm in taking a suggestion if you personally think it will make the story better.

Man, you guys have gotten me to come out from my little cave and ramble way more than I normally do. *puts on her hermit hat and goes back to lurking instead of doing a classic Lois babble* ^_~

Oooh, I wholeheartedly agree. I've never actually "changed" a story before, because of what someone has said, but I have added parts or scenes in there that worked with the story, because someone wanted to see it or I thought it would improve my story.

(Oh, to quote a particular line above Jojo: "It doesn't mean the author has to change it" -- so does this mean you are still going to send men with pointy sticks my way about the ending of one particular story that I'm writing? Hmmm? I'm only kidding! Well, maybe... )

Extremely well said, Jojo! Even as a reader I love going to fdk threads and reading people's speculations. Sometimes people are able to think up stuff that have me saying "wow I totally didn't see that." Regardless of whether it actually happens later or not, it's a really fun way of 'waiting' for a new part.

No you don't have to but you will make jojo a sad panda...

~Jojo, who hopes you end it differently if only to make your story different from the movie and stand on its own. ^_~ And knowing you two ladies, I'm not really concerned about it. I just like to tease.

Oh I voice all the time what I think might happen! But to me it's sort of like fanfic'ing the fanfic if that makes any sense ROFL. The whole reason we write fanfic is to say 'what if' to the show. Now we're saying 'what if' to our 'what ifs'. It was like when I spent the summer scribbling down what I thought might happen after Clark left for New Krypton. I cared WAY more about what TPTB would come up with than whether or not I thought any of my ideas would actually fly. And I care way more about what authors come up with than what I think might happen. It's just...fun. :p

JD

Maybe I just came from lazy fandoms, but I made a remark (when I was an LnC newbie--oh, back in February) about how strange it was to me to see the feedback SEPARATE from the stories themselves.

See, in BOTH of the fandoms I'd been active in before, when someone posted a story, they set the thread to automatically alert them if there were replies (if they wanted), and everyone posted feedback in the same thread as the story (or chapter). It just seemed strange to post the feedback in a whole separate thread!

Then, I asked what that was all about over here, and the answer kinda made sense--although I can't remember the exact reasons given.

That said, coming from such so-called "lazy" fandoms, I kind of see moving the feedback into a whole different forum as a bit of overkill. Not to mention, because of said laziness, I for one am not inclined to read a story, then go into a whole different section of the boards just to post feedback, when now all I have to do is hit the back button on the browser, then either find the right FDK thread or start one of my own.

I have to admit though, that with the FDK threads separate (but still in the same forum), I've left a TON more feedback for stories in this fandom than in either of the other two COMBINED. And I was active in those for a longer amount of time by months, in one of them by YEARS!

Yes, I've seen boards where comments were posted right after the story part, too, and that doesn't really bother me. Keeps everything nice and neat in a way.

The board I'm thinking of (and like best, frankly) does it like this: Each author starts a story thread in the appropriate part of the forum AND, at the same time, starts their own feedback thread in the the comments section of the forum. So, one story thread, one feedback thread. Usually, the author will link to the feedback thread at the end of the story post - that way, no one has to go hunting for anything if they want to comment. The link is just right there and takes you straight to the comments, which is, IMO, even easier than using the back button and searching for the FDK thread here.

When they update the story, they go back to the original story thread and post under the first part. And again, they'll link to their feedback thread, which is still the same feedback thread they started the first time. It just grows and grows right along with the story. There's no real need for TOC's because the story stays in one piece and the comments stay in one piece, and when either are updated, they bump to the top so you can see they've been updated. It just seems a lot simpler to me.

However, I'm really not pushing for change. I know people are used to the old way and comfortable with the old way and probably take an 'if it ain't broke' approach to the whole thing. And I'm pretty used to it now, too, but it still strikes me as a little confusing, especially to the newcomers.

Caroline

You know if it seems a bit cluttered...

Maybe it's just me, but it just seems like a lot more people are writing and churning out one story after another, to boot. Even when these boards were really active a few years ago, I sort of remember being able to keep up with everything. Granted, I gave up most reading when I started grad school, but even now when I sit on my butt during holiday, I look around to see what's going on, and I actually *gasp* open the TOC forum just because there's so much activity.

JD

Yes, I love the family tree that you did. (And before you put it up, I’d done one of my own… Hehe)

I still read quite a bit, but I can’t read as much when writing. One thing that really slowed me down was doing four betas at once which I’ll never do again. I enjoy reading too much.

Me, too…


JoJo, your ‘tips’ were right on. Although that thing about taking a while to post… Sue about drove us all nuts making us wait. (Of course, I guess I have to agree with the idea of waiting.)


Yes, I’ve probably done this LabRat. I do think the author needs to be a part of their feedback thread and acknowledge their feedback.

I see it that way.

I don’t think I ever did find out how to get one of those.


Yes, Pam. I have always found you to be friendly.


Sue, they leave us all in slack jawed amazement. Has Ann provided a count recently? Wasn’t it up to something like 600 posts? You really are an absolutely awesome writer. (And anybody who hasn’t read Sue’s stuff ought to do so right away because she is one of the most amazing authors I’ve read anywhere .)


I’ve wondered about that, too, but I do like them being together like they are here. It might be nice if the fics were set off some other way than by blue arrows. I wouldn’t mind them being separate if it’s not like it is at fanfiction.net though.


Yes, I’m a member of both, too (as are many here). That whole thing actually added to me leaving lurkdom for awhile and going away completely. (That wasn’t the only reason.)

Yes, this irks me, too especially when it becomes a mantra. Just because you don’t particularly like something about a story doesn’t mean that story isn’t still good.

Everything you said was very well said indeed, Alcyone.

Well said, JoJo.


I’ve seen links to feedback done in the stories *here* and I like it. But it’s up to every author to do it. I’ve been known to do it, but I tend to be lax about it.

Interesting what you said about so many stories being churned out, Shadow. Sometime recently, I saw 4 or 5 fics posted here back to back.

This has been a very interesting thread. I just popped on today for the first time to see what everyone was talking about and have found the discussion interesting.

I know I'm not a newbe, but I don't think I'm an icon either. I'm just... well old (but then, that's the story of my life )

I can't speak for anyone else, but I've probably read less than a dozen stories this year and those are almost exclusively after they are posted on the archives.

As to why I'm not reading much anymore: I broke my tailbone about a year and a half ago and it's been getting progressively more painful for me to sit for any length of time unless I'm doped up on pain killers (which I am at the moment so don't expect me to say anything brilliant ). Anyway, as a result, when I do take the time to sit down, I have to decide what to do with that time.

And since something inside of me dies if I'm not writing... most of my limited time at the computer these days is spent writing... something (although even there, I've spent a lot less time writing as a result of my injury, too.)

As to my point... Well, I'm not sure I have one . What was the topic again? (btw, did I mention that I love my drugs )

Oh, right. I remember now what I wanted to say. It's not that I'm ignoring new writers. I'm just ignoring all writers. But please, keep writing. Because some day I'm hoping to actually be able to go back and read some of these great new stories (when the doctors find a way to make the pain go away).

ML

MLT, I don’t think you asked for sympathy, but I’m really sorry about your tribulations, chronic pain is truly hell on earth, and I hope you will be able to read some the outstanding work that has been produced here in recent time. Anyway I’m selfish enough that I rather see you writing if you can. I don’t have to stretch saying that you are one of the main reasons I’m in awe of the collected work of the L&C community. So I’ve difficulty imagining that “iconic” isn’t applicable.

I’m glad that I’m not the only person that thinks that the current fic layout board is a nuisance. (I was starting to believe there was something wrong with me.) Even finding my favourite authors can take minutes. Hunting down all the part of a new story that quite often is mislabelled is most often a pain. The TOC section isn’t helping much since it’s a week old and somehow doesn’t seem to contain what I was looking for. Or perhaps I just suck at information retrieval.
Some while ago I suggested that it should be rather simple to post feedback on the story thread, but was shot down thoroughly, I think the word tradition came up.

But hey what do I know? I’m crazy enough to believe that a non-password protected smut section would be a good idea. :p

Arawn, I've found that, when I'm looking for a particular fic that's not on the first screen of the fanfic section, I can use the Search link. I usually search in the TOC section for either the title of the fic, or the author's name, but I have been known to search the fanfic section itself, just in case there's a chapter that hasn't been added to the TOC yet.

Just caught up with this thread.

I think I'm a unique case over here - during the past year, I found my interest in all kinds of reading dwindling. I read very little fanfic (most of it in Harry Potter nowadays, and occasionally L&C vignettes) but I've also stopped reading books and even comics. (I think the homework overload might have contributed to it.)

Lately I don't even check the boards every day. I spend most of the day away from home since I started classes at the university, and when I'm home I'm usually too tired/sleepy to do stuff that requires a working brain (which is also why I write much less, too) - and enjoying a story does require a working brain. I usually just catch up with emails, LiveJournal and I chat with my friends - in other words, I just try to keep up with what's happening in my friends' lives.

I'm a relative newbie myself, and I had a lot of trouble attracting readers when I first started writing. Because of that, I understand the frustration of newbies who think they deserve better (I thought I did too! But then again, my stories stank, so I'm probably not one to talk ) and I try to encourage new writers as much as I can, by reading their stories, giving feedback and BRing, if I can. Unfortunately, I hardly have a chance to do that anymore I'm ashamed to say that I barely even know the names of the new fics posted! I recognize the new posters that have appeared on the boards, but that's about it And I had plans about reading tons of fanfic when I'd be done with high school, catching up with oldies, doing a good bit of Kerth reading... but none of this happened.

Anyways.

Interesting discussion here. I enjoyed reading it - in such discussions, I much prefer reading to writing, because I never feel I have much to contribute. Though I'd like to comment on this:

I agree that maybe an email or IM is a better approach, but I can't really say I see the problem with saying it in a FDK thread.

But what if we're talking about a long story? Do you expect the reader to keep reading until the end, spend maybe hours on the story in the off chance they might like it in the end? If I can predict I'm not going to like a story because it deals with a topic I don't care about, I'm not going to waste my time reading it. This isn't obligatory reading.

Exactly, Nancy. Which is why, as a reader, I feel obliged to let the writer know *why* I'm not going to read the story till the end. Otherwise, the writer will wonder why there's such a lack of FDK, or, in case it's a longer story, where have the previously regular reviewers gone. (It's happened to me, and I didn't like it.)

Of course the writer is not expected to change their story so as to make it fit the reader's tastes. But the comfort alcyone seems to find so improbable exists. At least, it exists if there *is* something nice you can say about it. For example, a comment like "I really love the way you write, but *this kind of fanfic* doesn't really interest me, so I'm not going to read any further" seems more like an apology than negative feedback. I'd go as far as to say that it's actually positive feedback; the writer can rest assured that their writing is good enough to even be appreciated by non-fans of the genre!

It's happened to me, to get comments telling me they loved my writing, but they didn't like something else about the story, and I appreciated them deeply. In fact, I had pretty much a whole FDK folder full of comments of that nature. So I'm not just assuming here, but speaking from personal experience.
(I have to admit - in my case, no one stopped reading, maybe because it was the last part of the story. But I had people tell me they found it really hard to finish reading.)

Then again, I wouldn't expect, say, Tank to start sending such FDK to all kidfic writers, or Ann to all deathfic writers. I'm talking about the case where you've started reading something but then you feel like you can't read further.

I hope I haven't offended anyone.

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

I would imagine that one reason we don't post FDK directly in the story thread is that would cause the story to be sent to the top with every response. Then we would all have to stop and try to remember whether we had read that story/chapter or not. That would make it even more confusing, for me anyway.

And I second using the search feature when looking for something. It is very helpful. But I do reccommend searching in the subject line only, or by member number. It takes a while if you search the entire message.

[Moderator hat on]

I've been observing some of the comments here and the language being used by one or two of us, and have a friendly request to make. Can I ask that we all remember these boards are designed and maintained by volunteers? Suggestions for improvement are always welcome, of course, but I'm sure those who gave of their free time to set up this site would appreciate it if we could tone down the unbridled criticism just a little.

Thanks, and sorry to insert an off-key note into this friendly and lively discussion.

[Moderator hat off]

Yvonne

Other reasons are that it is irksome for those with slower internet access. Others who save story segments to their pcs were also irritated by getting a mass of FDK with it. They wanted to be able to save just the story segment and nothing else. There were other reasons, but I can't recall what they were this far down the road. Their origins are lost in the midsts of Zoomway's boards, which is where the format was set up. We simply carried it over when we set these boards up because it never occurred to us to use anything else than the one we were used to.

In fact, Zoomway began by using the adding FDK to the story segment thread. Then there was a bit of discussion about how many people it annoyed and the format was switched to the current one, which suited the majority better.

I'm afraid that once a week is all that I'm prepared to do on updating the TOCs. I simply don't have the free time to update them every day or every hour, so that they are always immediately up to date. So if you want more regular updates than that, you're going to have to start begging the authors to take the time to set up/update their own TOCs whenever they post a story segment.

As far as I'm aware, there's no missing information in the TOC folder. But if you spot anything missing please do email me (or the author). Using the search function is good advice though. It can be very helpful.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'mislabelled' story parts, Arawn. I don't think I've experienced that. One thing that I do find hampers my updating TOCs is FDK threads which have commentary at the start in their headers and the story title second. I usually miss the one I'm looking for several times before I spot it because I don't recognise it and half the time I end up giving up in frustration and having to search for it. Putting the story title first and the commentary second would go a long way to cutting down the time I spend on updating the TOCs!

LabRat

Oooh, I hadn't thought about how that would affect the TOCs Labby. Sorry for any of those I contributed to starting I certainly don't want to cause you any extra work... so I'll keep that in mind the next time I start a FDK thread.

<DJ - who is definitely still a newbie because she keeps learning new things about how to post>

Thanks, DJ. I find the various headers deeply amusing, so don't think I don't appreciate them. . I only start cursing your name <g> when I've spent five minutes searching for a fdk thread I know is right under my dang nose and it's playing at being invisible. But I get over it. <g>

But there's no denying that swapping the title and commentary around on a header would help me out a fair bit. So any move towards that is much appreciated.

LabRat

I wanted to just chime in on this one point. I have not read all the posts in this tread but I feel that I should defend our decision regarding this.

The password protection is there for a reason. My name is associated with this domain, this web host, and this site. I live in the United States where there are laws that I must follow regardless of what country you as the member are from. Let's not forget to mention that there's also a term of service agreement (TOS) for the web host.

In reality there is no password protection on the forums we just allow certain members access to them. It just so happens that those members must be over 18.

I understand how it must be an inconvenience to the users to apply for access to those forums; however that is something that is never going to change no matter how much complaining there is over it.

Weigh that against a complaining parent who accuses me of allowing a minor to access "porn". Who will win this fight? Especially when I am able to provide proof that their innocent child lied to gain access.

I also know that most nfic authors would not post their fanfic if that protection was not in place.

Some rules of the site were agreed upon by the original moderators and admins as a group and may certainly be debatable. However, this is one rule that we have no choice about, it will forever stand, and will never be up for debate. I ask that you do not question it and accept is for what it is.

Thank you,

Not that mine would have been any great loss... but, yes, Annette, you are correct. I for one would not have posted in there if that were the case.

-- DJ

I think Arawn was referring to a previous conversation . We discussed the passwords-for-nfic question about a month ago.

Psst, Labrat... this is the perfect time to ask people to help you with the TOC's. ^_~ I want to help you... I was fighting with myself in the car this morning to volunteer, but as I run 2 websites, a live journal community, have a cross stitch I have to finish by february, and I also run a staff of about 100 people for another hobby I have... I don't think it is wise. LOL

On another note... I know some people were talking about the slow down of the IRC channel. Who owns it? X decided that the "Manager" hadn't logged in for a while and has decided that the ops level 400 and above should pick a new manager. So.... someone should look into that.

Also, taking a second to tell the staff of the site that they are awesome and thank them for giving us a place to play. You are a very organized bunch and the amount of time you put into everything is amazing.

Seconded!

LabRat, I know I am really new and therefore could be, so far as you know, a crazy loon, but if you need admin help, you've got a willing volunteer here. I can help with TOCs or whatever else, just let me know.

DSD,

Well thank you for the suggestion I keep it in mind, but I think it further illustrate that the presentation could be easier.

Mrs Mosley,

I hadn’t considered that. But still the fact that half of the threads would disappear should go a long way into making it more manageable.

Labrat,

And I hope you realize (and as I said the last time) that this isn’t a complaint about you not doing a good enough job. I certainly don’t expect someone to check the board every five minutes to make an update. But as I understand it, the purpose of the TOC is to make the jumble of threads in the fic section more manageable. Now imagine that some feature could make the fic section so easy to operate that the TOC wasn’t really necessary. Then you would have less job.

Sometimes, the authors don’t use the blue arrows, sometimes there is a tag that I just throws me off a feedback thread.

Annette,

Very well, if you don’t want to be associated with smut for personal reasons, or the general hassle I can understand that. But if you are referring to American obscenity laws this site would have nothing to fear, or so I’ve been told by American lawyers I know.

AFAIK I’m the only one who complained about it, and virtually everybody else thought it was a bad idea so my expectation weren’t that high, that was why I mentioned it in this context, as a joke at my own expense, the forum tends to shoot down my ideas. But I have no problem with that, people thinks differently.

And I didn’t consider it as much a complaint as a suggestion to make the board more accessible. To someone like me, that has a password it’s no hassle. I was just thinking about casual browsers that might me sucked into the fandom by easier access.

Fair enough, if it’s your board, it’s your rules. I didn’t see anything in FAQ that mentioned that this subject was taboo.

Yvonne,

If this was also directed at me it appears I come across as a whiner rather then the dynamic groundbreaker I imagine myself to be. I’m very sorry.
May I ask what is the difference between suggestions for improvement and unbridled criticism? (I’m not being flip, I genuinely seem to have a problem with it.)

Oh, we're supposed to change the message icon when we post a story?

I'd just been doing the same thing I always do when I post on the boards--copy/paste the story into the thread, add the title to the subject line with the chapter number, and hit the button to post it.

I don't even really pay attention to anything above the field for the subject--on any board I visit--and didn't realize that when I post a story (or chapter) I was supposed to change the message icon. Was I?

It's not a requirement, no. It's recommended that an author use the blue arrow message icon when posting a story or story part, to help distinguish it from the feedback threads. And it is mentioned in the FAQs, but not everyone reads those (or remembers everything that's in them )

It's certainly not mandatory.

Kathy

It's not that I don't my name associated with smut it's that I don't want to be put to task because I've allowed minors to access it. While most of the fanfic can be compared to a Harlequin romance there is that small percentage that can't be.

It's not a risk I'm willing to take and I thank you for understanding that.

If you're refering to #loisclark it's true I haven't been on channel in a while but I do log in enough to make sure that X stays with us. I can't transfer ownership to someone else, it would require the creation of a new channel.

There are a number of users with 400 access and above that can help out with commands but there cannot be another 500, like I am.

If I am needed for anything I'm usually just an email away.

Thanks!

Nono, what I mean is that X changed the topic about two days ago saying that the manager hadn't logged in and that the people with level 400 access and above needed to email undernet with their decision on a new manager. I'm not personally asking for a new manager undernet is through X. I'm just saying it is being wonky and maybe someone needs to go do something about it and I wasn't sure who that was.

I just wanted to say, Anne, that I personally love that you have it password protected. I'm all for freedom of speech, but kids are a different story in my book.

And I'd be devastated if some legal mumbo jumbo shut down all the work you've done!

Just my opinion -- I like the protection for the nfic forum. I don't write nfic, and my kids are grown, but I have an awfully smart 9-year old grandson, and I have the feeling that my son would be annoyed if he managed to get into the nfic -- especially considering the custody fight going on between my son and his ex.

As to the way the message board is handled, stories separate from the feedback, I remember the way it used to be when the feedback was attached. If you have a dial-up, it can take a huge amount of time for a story with lots of feedback to load, and my time at the computer is a lot more limited than it used to be. I like the system as it is, but that's just my humble opinion.

As a rule, unless I'm in a rush and forget, I try to post a TOC to each part as I go, so that all anyone has to do is go to the TOC to find all the parts. I still haven't figured out how to make it fancy (changing the url link to a word or two) but that's just because I have trouble following written instructions. I have to be *shown*. But my method seems to work, even if it isn't as elegant as some other people's.

Nan

Thanks for letting me know that. I'm a little put out that no one has alerted me to this before now.

I'm on the channel now.

Thanks.

The thing about joining a new fandom is that there are always people who were there before you, who set up systems and habits and their own way of doing things, and these systems all had reasons and logic behind them when they were established. Sometimes because it suited the constraints people had - eg dialup, or people wanting to save story segments to their hard drive. Sometimes because it seemed to be the most sensible system anyone could think of at the time. Sometimes just because someone started doing it that way and everyone followed.

Yes, we began maintaining a separate feedback thread because doing it the other way (as attached to the story) was inconvenient for a lot of people. I remember many requests for feedback to go separately. Then TOCs emerged because - as you're noticing - it became difficult to catch up with all parts of a story. In the beginning, not too many people were posting fic here, and it wasn't posted in instalments - you'd get an entire fic posted at once, because that's the way the Archive accepts fic. And then we moved to instalments, and it became difficult to find earlier instalments, so the fanfic index was set up - have you found that? If not, then click on the big Fanfic Index link at the top of the fanfic folder. There, you'll find all fic listed by title, with a link to the TOC. And, of course, then TOCs came - someone came up with the idea for a table of contents, and it took off.

So that's why we do what we do. Now, it's a system the old-timers are used to, so I can certainly see why some people are looking surprised that it doesn't work for others and wondering what the problem is. We're in a situation where there are a lot of new members here (which is wonderful, by the way), and it's only natural that you're thinking about ways it could be done differently.

So, what are you thinking of? I'm not sure, personally, that having the feedback threads in a different folder would work especially well, or be popular. Posting each subsequent part of a story in the same folder? That might work. I think the reason it wasn't done originally was that it would take too long to load for those on dialup. Maybe, also, it would be a pain to scroll through to find the newest chapters? I don't know. Also, I'm not sure but there may be a limit to how long (not number of responses but number of characters) a thread can be. Don't know there.

Anyway, the admins are always open to suggestions - these are your boards! I do have to say that in some fandoms any attempt to change the way things are done will get people completely slapped down. That's not the way we work here and I don't think it's ever been. But, as Yvonne hinted, it can feel like a bit of a slap in the teeth if the approach seems to be 'this is crap and it needs to be better'. But do suggest changes or improvements all you like, though!


Wendy
Boards Admin Team

Hyperlinks are one of those things that look really complicated when you don't know how to do them, but are actually very simple, Nan. Just:

Right-click on the header of your story segment/fdk thread and choose "copy link location" (or whatever equivalent your browser names it). That will copy the url of your post for you. Or you can open up the post and just highlight and copy the url from the top of your screen.

In your TOC post, click on the url button at the bottom of the page.

When the little url screen pops up, paste your copied url into it.

Hit ok.

Type whatever you want to call it ("Part One", "Comments", whatever) into the blank screen that comes up next.

Hit ok.

And that's you. When you then make the post you should find that the link is shown as whatever you named it – Part One, Comments, etc.

LOL! Hardly, Lisa. I don't have time to get back to you properly on this just now, but I'll be back in the morning. (And I have to do some thinking on how to circumvent some possible logistical difficulties, which I'm sure can be got around). Meantime, thanks for the offer – much appreciated.

LabRat

One idea I've had from time to time is the idea of having only one feedback thread per story - no matter how many parts there are. It would certainly cut down on the number of folders and then if you get a good discussion going, it wouldn't get cut off by posting a new part. Just a thought.

ML

I kind of like this as an idea - and Caroline's similiar idea from earlier - but logicstically I think Wendy may be right. It would probably end up a very long thread and be a nightmare to download for those with a slow internet connection.

I know that Sue's feedback over in the nfic folder isn't exactly the norm, but could you imagine all of those fdk threads combined into just one? Yowsa! It would probably take three years to download.

Even fairly standard fdk would probably add up to quite a long thread if the story was fairly lengthy.

So it's probably not a flier for that reason. Pity though, I think.

LabRat (who shouldn't really be back here, but couldn't resist checking her pc on the way back from the loo. I so have to get out of that habit... <G>)

Well, I don’t mind hearing this. I rather thought that Alcyone’s statement was talking about folks that say, “I’m not gonna read your story any more if you don’t do such and such and such… In other words, they expect you to change your story to fit their needs. I don’t mind being told by someone that they aren’t reading or are going to stop reading and why (I truly want to know.), but there’s a difference between telling you politely and ramming it down your throat about how much they hate what you have written. I’ve had both happen.


Yes, I totally agree.


Oh, Yvonne, I hope you don't think I was one of those who haven't been friendly. I promise that wasn't my intention. I think I've caused enough of a firestorm as it is. I don't want to be seen as rude on top of that.


I would never have thought that I could do my own TOC’s until I tried, so I’d encourage other authors to do the same. And, Labby, I appreciate all you do for us. (How do you do it all anyway?)


Well, when I start feedback headers, they are usually pretty boring, but I’ll remember this Labby and make sure that I don’t do this. Anything I can do to make your job easier, I’ll do. Again, thanks…


I’ve only posted one of those, and I agree. I would not want a minor to have read it.


Well said, Annette.


Hear, hear!!


You know one thing that might make the TOC’s easier to navigate is if they were alphabetically driven instead of date driven. But I have no idea if that’s possible. I have a feeling that it would too much hassle for you admins. (I can usually find what I’m looking for by using a search anyway.)

It probably still would take too long for those with dial-up. (Thank goodness, I was able to stop the dial-up a month or so ago.)


Maybe if authors could be conscientious about posting a URL to just the previous part of their story that would help folks. (I’ll do that.)


Oh, my, I don’t think that would work. Just take a look at Sue S. Faustian Bargain feedback threads. I just looked and one of them (at least one) has 115 replys.


Hehe... Glad to know I'm not the only one that does that kind of thing...

Alphabetical can't be done because the UBB software orders threads by date of post. That's the way it works.

If you want alphabetical, though, use the fanfic message board index


Wendy

Yeah, I kind of figured it wasn't possible.

I don’t think that same feedback for multiple parts would work very well. There are many stories that have many parts, I think it would be difficult to navigate.( Then again maybe it’s nice for the authors to have all their feedback in the same place for that particular story.)

Not knowing if you have read the story or not (with feedback and story as the same thread that jumps up and down) wouldn’t be a problem I think, since read topics change colour.

Another idea I have (that I hope isn’t unbridled criticism) would be to have some kind of autolink feature so that a feedback thread is automatically attached to the each story, and you just can click between them.
But that might not be technically possible. and would require extra work on somebody’s part.

Arawn, I'm sorry you appear to have such difficulty in understanding my request. Perhaps a few illustrative examples will help:

Unbridled criticism:

"I’m glad that I’m not the only person that thinks that the current fic layout board is a nuisance."

"Hunting down all the part of a new story that quite often is mislabelled is most often a pain."

"Even finding my favourite authors can take minutes."


Suggestion for improvement:

"might be nice if the fics were set off some other way than by blue arrows."

"You know one thing that might make the TOC’s easier to navigate is if they were alphabetically driven instead of date driven."


I'm sorry that all the examples of unbridled criticism come from your posts but, unfortunately, you do seem to be the most talented at this form of discourse.

Yvonne

Yvonne, I’m grateful that you took the time to explain what bothered you. I can (often) be rather dense.
I much rather have people tell me that my zipper is down then trying to hint at it in some oblique fashion.

I’m sorry about that too. I’ve have never on this board deliberately tried to be offensive.
I enjoy heated discussion, but I get my fill of that in other places. I come to this board to soak up the fluffy bunny atmosphere, at the same time I want to give something back to you and the other writers who have given me so many hours of entertainment. So I raise issues and suggest things that I think might give you more recognition.
Since it so relaxed around here, I wasn’t that circumspect when I brought up the password issue, but I have understood that it hit a nerve. Since the material is so good I thought I would do the writers a service by suggesting a more open access. I’m sorry if I stepped on any toes.

I also wanted to say that I hold this board in great esteem. Perhaps you recall when I raised the issue of uncommon organization? While my experience with fanfic is limited, everything I know of the internet suggests that this board is well run and that the administration does an excellent job.
For me, criticism is most often a sign of respect. If I find something mediocre or hopeless I would never bother to type something down(The exception would be if my life depended on it or something). Really, nothing in this world is so good that it can’t be better.

"I’m glad that I’m not the only person that thinks that the current fic layout board is a nuisance."

You know, I’m actually embarrassed reading that. It was in relation to the next sentence, but even so I perfectly understand if you find it offensive. When you find something a problem and discover that no one else agrees with you, you start to wonder if it's you, hence the “joy” that I wasn’t the only one that found it problematic. I never saw it as vindication that I gotten one over the administration, as it can be perceived, and I apologize most profusely if it was taken that way.


"Hunting down all the part of a new story that quite often is mislabelled is most often a pain."

I thought this was what you meant. And I miswrote this sentence. it would be more true say “sometimes” instead of “most often” nuisance instead of pain.
It didn’t accurately describe my views and was perhaps coming on to strong. I’m sorry.

"Even finding my favourite authors can take minutes."

Perhaps it would be more polite without the "even" otherwise this is simply an observation and is quite correct, I find it relevant in the context.

Well if I’m quite happy that you took me as an example, I asked for it, and it gives me a valuable opportunity to reflect on how I express myself.
I’m not sure "talent" is a word I would use for abrasiveness (at least when it’s not intentional), I see it as more of a handicap. By your sentence I take it that you consider it a pattern in my posts?

I had no idea this was a problem! I used to make tons of such threads. I'm so sorry!



Annette, I can't speak for anyone else, but I rarely make it to IRC these days, and on those rare occasions that I do, I almost never see any "oldbies." It is quite likely that the only people who have been in IRC lately are people who didn't know what to DO about the message they were seeing.

Hey, no problem. There was absolutely no reason why you would think of it. It's the kind of thing that just wouldn't occur to you unless you were actually updating the TOCs.

LabRat

I've got to say that I've seen something interesting happening in the last couple of days - actually two somethings.

First, I've noticed the mention of 'icons' in other threads.

Second, I've noticed at least two people have posted feedback that say they were previous lurkers and hadn't always posted feedback... I'm glad to see those shy folks posting feedback.

I just caught up with this thread and I'm throwing my two cents in.

First, password for nfic is sensible and prudent. The ones advocating no password do not have their butts on the line if and when minors would gain access to the site.

Second, I come here for relaxation, to read a good story, and to meet a few new people that I wouldn't have had the opportunity to meet otherwise. If this board did not exist, that would not be possible. I can see by the way this board is set up and run that there's a lot of effort that goes into this site. Gratitude, not criticism, would seem to be appropriate in light of the time commitment that is devoted to the maintenance of this board for our enjoyment.

I have not been here all that long, but I've sure had a lot of fun since I arrived. Whether FDK is posted with the story, by itself, with an arrow, updated weekly, monthly, whether the TOC's are complete, incomplete, whatever, are details that I, quite frankly, don't care about. I've never had a problem locating what I've wanted to read or view. This site is so easy to navigate, I really enjoy it. So, thank you to everybody out there who takes time out of their busy day to keep this site operational. Your efforts are appreciated.

Cheryl, I have to give you a hearty ditto! I find it amazing that I've known some people here and elsewhere since...high school. :p No matter what happens around here or there, the bigger picture is that the last 6 or so years of my life wouldn't be *nearly* as interesting! Or supportive, but I'll save the mushy for another time, and just say a big THANKS to the volunteers.

JD

I agree, too, Cheryl.

And I actually think there was only one person who questioned the use of the nfic password (and he freely admits that he was probably the only one). There was a whole other thread about this.

And this board is extremely well organized and easy to use. And if there's something you don't understand, folks are eager and willing to help. You don't always see that on other boards.

This is a bit delayed, but I only just read this whole thread from beginning to current end on page 4.

I forget who said this:
I liked that this was mentioned, because with so many very promising - but long - stories, it makes sense. I do it, too - sort of "save" the story for a future day (like hoarding chocolate, although that's hard for me to do! ).

Because for me, Real Life sort of comes in waves. Sometimes I feel like I'm careening from one thing to another over the course of a week or two. I'll have a sort of calm spell, then something will come up - commitments somewhere else, a holiday, or my Muse kicks in (also mentioned here, I think by James - I don't read much other than short stories, or finished ones of just a few parts, when I'm writing).

---

This was also a good point - and it makes sense. Graduating from school, having a child, getting a new job - many life changes bring changes in hobbies and interests as well - maybe you meet someone new who has an interest that is new to you, or whatever. And personal reasons, sometimes sad ones, like Nan's a while ago, can drag you away for a while.

---

I'm in this group. I'm spending most of my time here working on my increasingly long epic, and again, that means I'm only reading short stuff. But - I've looked in on a few stories, and have put them on my "gonna read it when I'm done with my own story" because they look promising.

---

Caroline said:
I am in the class of "doesn't respond much to FDK" and I most humbly and sincerely apologize for it. In the beginning, I had this stupid idea that if I responded after the FDK thread was way down at the bottom of a page, or even on page 2, of a folder, then I would be too "self-promoting" if I replied and therefore placed the FDK back at the top of a folder. Weird, but there it is. It was why I responded at the top of each section of the story that I posted, instead.

Lately, I've come to realize that that idea is just plain wrong, and you who take the time to tell me outright that you like my ideas and stories deserve a reply. So I'm trying to overcome this idea that I shouldn't be pushing my FDK to the top. With this in mind, I'd love to reply to all my previous FDK threads, but can't get past the stupid self-promotion idea.

So instead, I will just start fresh now, and tell you all "thank you" when you post me FDK.

---

Me too! Isn't it funny how you can be around for awhile but still be a newbie in some areas? Real Life is like that, too, though.

For instance, I didn't know this:
until a few story segments ago. I've started to do it now, though. It's a good idea.

And this:
I didn't know this at all, but boy, I like it now that I know about it. Another option to finding a story you're following.

'Toc