Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related What is a deathfic?

Yes, I know, that's a dangerous question to pose, especially given my current work, but it's something I've asked before but never received an answer. I know that there are members who don't want to read about anyone's death. I also know that there are members who will read a well-written deathfic if the circumstances justify the death and if the author treats the character's death with the respect it deserves.

(That last can vary, of course. Luthor's suicide has been described as a swan dive to the sidewalk, turning himself into a street pizza, or even a good start. Respectful? Depends on one's perspective, I suppose.)

Let me pose my own definition, then each of you who wish to do so can chime in with whatever degree of agreement or disagreement you wish.


If this is accurate, then the classification of "deathfic" becomes very subjective. Do we want to restrict this classification to any story where any character dies? Where a death, whether on-screen or off-screen, is a part of the story? Or is it one where Lois or Clark dies, whether at the end of a long, full life or not? Does a character death (any story character) which is foreshadowed or happens according to canon make a tale a deathfic (i.e., Luthor, Max Menken, Spencer Spencer, etc)?

I'm not trying to start a war or even a mild argument over this question, nor am I trying to box anyone in. I really would like to know what FoLCs think about this. It would help me in my future fic writing, and maybe it would be a good thing for each of us to solidify our own opinions on this matter.

I'm eager to read some other opinions. Please don't be shy about responding, but let's try to keep it civil without naming names or casting aspersions.

Interesting question. I can only give my opinion of course. That opinion is that a deathfic is whenever one of the main characters(Lois, Clark, Perry, Jimmy, Jonathan, Martha, Sam, Ellen, and maybe Lucy) die. That said I really don't consider this a problem unless the character's life is cut short, the shorter the more problem I have with it. As I have said before in the FDK of your current work, I did not like the character death and it was right on the edge of being a problem for me due to it the character's life being truly cut short. I still go back and forth as to whether you cut the life too short. Other times the life is a long and eventful one and the story covers the impact of that life on the rest of the characters and sometimes the world. Those stories have absolutely no problem with.

Virginia has begun using a technical capability of the new boards to put a WHAM warning in her into/opening. It is hidden behind a button and the author can put information regarding the type of WHAM under that feature and so those who want to be shocked by whatever the author has in store can not click the button and read it but those who have limits to what they want to/will read and don't mind a potential spoiler can click the button and determine whether they want to read the story or not. Warning: if you have setup your profile to get e-mails whenever a posting is made this feature does not work and the 'spoiler' is in the e-mail. I have not problem with this as the journey not the shocking WHAM is what I read for.

My two cents.

Mike

I agree with Mike, somewhat. I consider a deathfic to be when a main or beloved co-starring character (See Mike's list of characters) dies and said death is a main component of the story. While I'd add Cat Grant to his list, many others would not. Oh, wait, Bill Henderson should be added too. I might add other beloved characters known to the readers but not necessarily canon. If Batman, Wonder Woman, other main Justice League members, and previous and loved spouses to Lois and Clark, or any children of Lois and Clark were to die, it could also make the story a deathfic. This only applies, if said character were introduced to the reader within the story and died within the scope. If Batman were to die and neither Lois or Clark had known him nor were affected by his death, then I wouldn't consider it a deathfic. (Although, WE all know that Clark would be affected whether he knew Batman personally or not. )

I don't consider a story a deathfic if the villain dies (i.e Luthor, SpencerX2, Metalo, etc.) and did die in canon, UNLESS that character is the main character of the story and the story is from his/her POV. Let's say, if Miranda from PML were to die within a PML remake that wouldn't make it a deathfic, unless Lois, Clark, Jimmy, or Perry were the cause of her death.

Sometimes I read deathfics and sometimes I do not. It usually depends on my mood and the type of death and/or if the author is one I know will treat the death and the aftermath for the survivors with respect and some realism. I usually don't like to see Lois or Clark waste away by illness. If the character dies at the end of a full and long life, then it isn't as bad, IMO.

In regards to your current story, Terry:
I might also consider a story a deathfic if the story ends abruptly with someone's (see Mike's list) death. If someone dies within a story, I usually like the plot to continue on until the surviving characters have recovered (somewhat) and hope has restored. But that's me.

That being said, I might write or read a story which breaks all the above-mentioned rules, just to stretch myself as a writer or because the author is one I trust. (See Wrong Trilogy, Book 1: Another Dimension, Another Time, Another Lois... where... WHAM warning Dark comedies can also be deathfics, but not everyone has the same sense of humor and might not find the humorous way you've found to kill off Lois or Clark as funny.

Is it still a deathfic if the characters are reunited later? The afterlife, reincarnation, reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated/I was faking/it was a clone who died, etc.

Per Mike's request to refresh his memory or for anyone who doesn't know. All you need to do to hide text in the "Click to Reveal" box is surround the selected text with "spoiler" and "/spoiler" in brackets [] (without quote marks), similar to what you do when you quote stuff. Or if you switch to full screen reply / message mode it's the S" button with a diagonal slash mark through it.

Personally, I am on the side of - it depends.

I have had main characters die. In volume 2 of my Matchmaker set Lois died of old age, in her 90's. That was used as the setup for Clark to be moved forward in time by Herb to meet her next incarnation, Lorelei.

In Volume 4 Lois, actually Alt Lois, who we all were led to believe in canon had died in the Congo. In volume 3 I had her saved by Alt Clark, but like Schrodinger's cat there are 2 possible outcomes, when she survived it was because a new reality had been created. In volume 5 I had another Alt Clark die after Lois had been changed into UW so that Alt Clark and she could get together thanks to Herb.

I did put a disclaimer before the chapter involving the death of Lois as a warning even though it was old age that was the cause. Since it was a plot device and not the object of the fic I kinda glossed over it. When Alt Clark lost Alt Lois that became a major issue for him, but here again it was a plot device setting up the union with yet another Alt Lois.

As I said above - I think it depends on a number of factors. I have been having a hard time with your current story, Terry because it is like the death of Lois is the central issue. It does engender a feeling of unease because this is a character that we, as a community, have a lot of emotion invested in.

Admittedly I was treading on quicksand when I was writing the stories listed above. I justified it to myself by saying - these are alternate universe versions of the character, not canon and therefore expendable if it will move the story to the desired conclusion.

I have started doing the same thing with your fic. These are obviously not the canon characters because this is not how it went. In canon Lois is okay and forever will be.

The story would still be a deathfic for those who do not want to read deathfics. In MY opinion, your story is most definitely a deathfic for the following reasons:



Mike

It's interesting how passionately people feel about deathfic in this fandom. I've written stories in a number of fandoms, but I've seldom seen quite such strong reactions to the subject of death. I'm not sure why this is -- maybe because LnC is fairly light-hearted, whereas some other fandoms are a lot heavier on the angst.

My question about deathfic wasn't a spoiler for Panem, by the way. It was a general question that I'd been curious about, since I've seen every one of those reunification scenarios in LnC fanfic. Some of them are canon (faking death, for example, in TOGOM, though it was readily apparent to the audience that Clark wasn't dead). Of course, there's also the reappearance of Luthor, who certainly did appear dead to the audience but was brought back.

In wider Superman canon (not LnC, but the comics), there was the whole death of Superman storyline, where he appeared dead, and the characters (and readers) mourned, but then it turned out he wasn't quite dead after all. (Of course, DC Comics kills off characters and brings them back so often that it's kind of a joke -- if your favorite character dies, wait a while and they'll be back.)

I think you hit it right on the head about the light-hearted nature of LnC one of it endearing qualities to me. I joined here from reading the archives after being a LnC series fan. Of course the series is over 20 years old and Zoom's board and the archives began just after the ending of the series. This means many of the early writers/fans were older than most of the writers these days. My opinion most of the early archive stories are much much less dark than many (most) of the current stories posted here. This is probably due to the darkening of the entertainment (?) world we see today. I mean what is the chance of a "Sleepless in Seattle" being made today in the fashion it was made then? Not very likely I would think. All of this adds up to me often wondering why I am still here...


I am sorry I thought it might have been and even if it was not I did not want to spoil anyone who had not begun the story. But your clarification confirms my decision not to continue with Panem. Thanks.



Probably why I have not read the comics in decades...

Mike

In my point of view a deathfic is when some of the main (good) characters die - and stay dead. If the writer brings him/her back I don't consider it a deathfic and I'll be willing to read it.

Speaking for me, I don't like afterlife/reincarnation fanfics, so I don't read them. And I consider them as deathfics, because the afterlife/reincarnation wouldn't bring the character to life, it would be another life (my view is based on the fact that I don't believe in the concept of reincarnation).

I like the idea of a warning in spoiler format. Maybe I'm too sensible, but I can't bear deathfics or too sad stories. They make me feel bad for days and I don't want to read a story that will let me feeling depressive. If there's a warning I'll read it and decide if I'm willing to give it a try or not.

Andreia

I've noticed over the last several years that people often post heavier stories at the end/beginning of the year (Northern hemisphere winter months). It's why I suggested two years ago for a comedy challenge because I was being dragged down by the heavy, dark, although good stories, which were posting at that time. Take your Vitamin D, Mike, and know that this dark cycle will too pass and the sunshine return. (crosses fingers)

Do you recall that "Sleepless in Seattle" itself is a form of deathfic? Tom Hanks character moves from Chicago to Seattle AFTER the death of his wife from cancer. Hmmmmm. What if Clark had married Lana and she died from cancer and he moved to Metropolis (or Seattle) with his son...

Virginia,

Correct, but the story was not about her death but about Tom Hanks and Meg Ryan's developing relationship and his son's impact on it. That plus the audience never met/saw the wife (that I can recall) and hence had no attachment to her character. The death was not the focus because it was a romantic comedy. It would be like your scenario except maybe someone the readers never knew or just barely had heard of instead of Lana or Lois and Paul actually falling in love during college, marrying, having a kid, and him being killed in a airplane/auto accident. I believe there are some of those types of stories around the archive but I cannot remember any titles off the top of my head and don't have the time to research...

Anyway, I was just using it as an example (maybe a bad one) of the popular movies of the time "You Got Mail" and "Harry Met Sally" were two probably more appropriate of Meg Ryan's movies of the time.

Who knows we might see something similar (kids trying to set Clark up) in the last couple of chapters of "Not the Years".

Mike

I can only offer my perspective, Terry. I do not read deathfics.

I have lost several persons who were anchors in my life in the last few years, including my only sister, and if I don't want to spend the rest of the day in tears, I can't read about it.

Speaking as someone who has written and read a lot of death fics, I'll say that in my opinion, a deathfic is when a story revolves around a main character's death (and any character's death at that, so long as they are main to the fic they are in). The death needs to be the main point of the story, and it needs to happen in the story. There is a difference to me between a WHAM and a deathfic-- even though both can contain a death.

I'm not 100% sure that Terry's latest qualifies as a deathfic simply because
Personally, I enjoy a good deathfic. It gives a sort of cathartic release at the end of it, gives you a good cry. I've always liked them, whether it comes in the form of a fic or a movie or a book, and I'll continue to enjoy writing/reading them even if nobody else does.

What I consider to be a deathfic -

1) A story in which a main character dies.

2) AND that death must be a major plot point in the story/most of the story's focus.

So, I would say that a story in which Lois dies in the beginning but is mostly focused on Clark picking up the pieces of his life is NOT a deathfic to me. But, a story which focuses on Lois, say, getting cancer, going through treatment, and ultimately passing away IS a deathfic.

That is why we have so many different types of stories here because not everyone likes the same topics. The problem is that for people like Ultra Woman and Nan who will NOT read or tolerate deathfics how do we keep them safe from that (and still here reading) without warnings to that effect.


The warning issue remains a problem and one I believe we cannot ignore ( See Lynn's post in the Mid-Length Quiz answer thread ). Sometimes it only takes one bad (to the reader) story encounter to get someone to drop this venue totally. Now I am sure the length of time the series has been off the air and fact that we have nearly 4,000 stories in the archive (and many more here not archived) covering nearly every episode ever show from a variety of different viewpoints have a lot to do with that loss of readership due to the belief that just about every story idea has been explored(I disagree but...). I also have a suspicion that we have lost some of readers over the past few years due to the darker turn of the stories lately.

As Dennis Miller always used to say: "That's just my opinion, I could be wrong...", but it is one of the reasons I have been reading more Castle fanfics lately as the fare over there is much lighter and more my personal style.

Mike

It seems to me that it might help to restore the WHAM Warning thread in the Lois and Clark Fanfic section. It disappeared with the upgrade.

I'm mostly a lurker these days, although I've been around these boards since their beginning (and Zoom's for a while before that). It's not that I've lost interest in the show, but I do find that my priorities are frequently in flux - I may pop in a lot over a period of several weeks, but then not be here for months on end.

Well, that may be true for some readers, but not for me personally. I have always enjoyed a wide variety of themes and tones in my L&C fics. And I don't need a warning for any story, but I recognize and respect that many do.

At one time there was a wham warning thread stickied to the top of the fic section where authors could divulge warnings of main character deaths/injuries, violence, or other themes that could disturb potential readers. People sensitive to such themes could check there before starting a story. It was never required for the author to post there, but some preferred that over including the warning in the story post itself.

The problem is, as people have posted on this very thread, that the definition of a deathfic does vary in nuance for each reader. We don't want to force warnings on authors, yet we also don't want readers to face unexpected and unhappy scenarios.

One suggestion that has been made in the past has been for readers who are particularly sensitive to these issues to privately contact authors who have begun to post a story whose storyline suggests "murky waters". Authors who are reluctant to publicly post warnings have been said to be very receptive to privately assuaging a potential reader's concerns - or confirming their suspicions.

Just my two cents.

Kathy

EDIT: I just saw Annie's post where she confirmed that the wham warning thread is gone. I'm all for reinstating it, even though that won't be the perfect solution for every person...

Good Point. I didn't realize until you mentioned it that it had disappeared. I know that I posted WHAM warnings for both my first books of my Wrong Trilogy, but that was before the upgrade. It took a little searching but here's the link: WHAM Warning Thread. The last entry was Mouserocks from December 2012.

EDIT: Is there something similar to the WHAM Warning Thread over on the Nfic side, or are those author supposed to use the same thread as the Gfic?

Annie's thought is completely on point: Whatever did happen to that? I always liked the warning thread because it would give readers a more full warning about what was to come without spoiling a twist for every reader. (That's a main issue I have with posting details at the top of the story-- you don't want to ruin it for those who want to be surprised.) I vote we should bring it back too. (I tried to bump it up, but even though it shows on the main page it doesn't when you go into fanfic? Very odd.)

Originally posted by Mike M:
I can't say that's true. I've read some really dark stories involving suicide, cancer and various forms of death on Castle fanfic. But I've also read some light-hearted waff there as well. I really don't think many people are swayed to leave a fandom over it, but that's just my opinion. For example, I usually avoid reading n-fics, but if an author happens to slip something in that's a little over the T rating (this applies almost wholly to Castle fic, as I don't think I've seen it happen here), I either just go along with it or quit reading that story. It doesn't keep me from enjoying other things by that author, or turn me off of Castle fics altogether. I just move on. I think the bigger issue with LnC is that there are less fics to move on to, simply because of the smaller fanbase. (I think Castle is approaching 25k on ff.net).

Kathy:
I'm kind of in the same boat right now. Just got back from vacation, and catching up some work (yuck), but I miss it here. I want to write more, but time is killing me. And money.