Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Fun with Polls Tank Endings: To Warn, or Not To Warn?

Tank Endings are surprise/sneaky endings to stories, usually in which death and destruction ensue on a large scale. Some people love them, and love being surprised by them. Others really hate being caught by surprise. We've talked before about posting a TE with a warning attached... except that spoils the surprise. However, those who detest the whole idea should have some way to avoid the trick parts...

I've come up with a scheme that I think might work -- a separate thread for TE warnings. It'd work like this:

1. Author A is ready to post a really evil ending.
2. Author A sends a short note to the message board admins letting them know about it.
3. One of the admins updates the warning thread with either a new post, or an edit to an existing post
4. Author A posts the evil ending
5. Reader B (who hates TEs) checks the warning thread, sees that there's a TE in the works, and can decide whether or not to read it.
6. Reader C (who loves TEs) ignores the thread, and is taken by surprise.

There are still details to be worked out, but that's the basic idea. We just need to know if you guys think it's worth the effort to set it up.

My $0.02:

I love Tank Endings

well, i'm not much for TEs. i like some of them, but that's getting rarer and rarer. i think the fun's worn off for me. i can definitely see the surprise being a factor, but then, i like my TEs with more than just "surprise, it's a TE!" i like being surprised by the way it goes, by how it's a TE. the best example i can think of is mere\'s night errant TE.

so, i definitely like the idea of a seperate warning. doesn't spoil the surprise for people who'd rather be hit with it, but gives warning to those who want it. great idea, pam. i, for one, would probably check that thread daily as i worked my way up the boards.

speaking of which, i've gotten really behind on the fic section again... time to get going.

Paul

I think this is a great idea, but I just want to add that I don't think that doing this means that writers should feel obligated to always make their TEs a surprise. If you don't want to have your readers surprised by a TE, just openly label it as one. It's all up to how the writer wants to handle his/her story.

~Anna

The idea is fantastic! In the thread, you would say which is the story that has a TE or you'd only let know that there is a TE in one of the new posts?

Jose

I added italics to Pam's words above because I have to challenge the basic assertion: Tank Endings were not, originally, surprise endings. They were, and still are, "endings" in which Tank's oft-expressed love of WHAMs is taken to the extreme -- and that's fair enough if you like that sort of thing.

However, it was only subsequently that writers began to sneak in a TE without warning, and it was not a welcome development IMO. Now, it appears that TE fans want to make it standard practice, and that is completely unacceptable!

The debate over unidentified TEs (UTEs, as I shall refer to them) has been fruitless in the past and remains so due to a basic impasse: UTE fans say that specifically identifying the "fake" endings spoils the "joke"; FoLCs like me who dislike TEs, and have considerably stronger feelings about UTEs, feel that any joke that might have existed the first time a UTE was posted has now become old, tired, boring and offensive in that we are being forced to read TEs.

I am aware that the word "forced" in the last sentence might be considered inflammatory; it is not intended as such, but I don't have an acceptable synonym. What else can you can it when a reader goes to the latest part of a story s/he has been following and enjoying and finds that it's a UTE?

Frankly, I don't think there is an acceptable solution to the problem -- not while authors and TE fans insist on their "right" to surprise readers with UTEs. Pam's attempt at a solution, while well-intentioned (and I thank her for her effort), is, IMO, unreasonable because it requires active measures to avoid UTEs: authors must tell the listmoms that they're going to post a UTE, and TE-loathers have to check the list every time they want to read a new chapter of a story! Let one link in the chain fail, through accident, ignorance, resentment or just plain boredom, and the scheme falls apart.

I haven't voted in this poll because none of the options are acceptable to me. I want TEs -- all TEs -- clearly identified at all times, so that I don't have to read them. Warnings in thread titles are obviously the best way to do this, but I would accept thread titles without warnings if (and only if) the very first words to meet the reader's eye at the start of such a post were "Warning! Tank Ending!" or the like.

I know that my views will bring responses, and many of them will be opposed to my opinion, so let me emphasise once more that this is not meant to provoke a flame war; it's what I think on the subject, and I put it forward as part of the ongoing debate on this topic -- even though I doubt that an acceptable compromise can be reached.

[LATER:] I was thinking about this, and I came up with a proposal for an addition to Pam's idea (or, as I now gather, the work of the list moderators as a group -- thanks to you all) which might make it more practical (in the sense of getting people to use the TE thread regularly); if such a thread was set up, it would need to a) be permanently at the top of the thread list, which should be doable (it is in every other MB I use), and b) must clearly indicate when an addition to the list had been made -- and I'd prefer something more obvious than just the "new post" icon; given my druthers, I'd have flashing lights, bells and whistles to warn that another *&%$£! TE has been put up!

I suspect that TE fans would object to this, considering that it spoils, at least partly, the surprise, but the idea behind my suggestion is to make the use of the TE thread less of a chore for those of us who are fed up to the back teeth with that same, unwelcome surprise.

Phil

I enjoy Tank Endings. But I will qualify that and say that the Tank Endings I really like are those which are so outrageous that they're hilarious. I don't like those which are normal story parts up until a final para or two which contains death and destruction. There was a TE posted last year which was a normal story part right up until the last two lines. There was nothing humorous in it, and the author refused to admit for a couple of days that it was a TE. I can see how that will have put some people off the idea.

But that's not a true TE anyway. A true TE should be getting obvious from early on in the section, and very obvious from at least halfway. In my TE to Faux Pas, for example, about a third of the way through Clark's hand floated away into space; that clued in a lot of people. In Pam's Heartbreak Hotel, a TE to All Shook Up, the outrageousness was also very obvious from early on, and it was also hilarious. As was Mere's TE to All Stirred Up.

So it's not just death and destruction on a wide scale which makes a TE; it's humour and outrageousness.

Now, I know this doesn't address the 'hate TEs in all forms' group. And I understand that, and I can also sympathise with their feelings, even if I regret the hostility which seems to have crept into some of these discussions. I hope a compromise can be found, for the sake of people who enjoy a good TE and feel that the surprise is ruined if it's labelled, as well as for the sake of those who hate them and really loathe being taken unawares. I'd like to be able to satisfy everyone, if at all possible, and I think that Pam's suggestion does represent a way ahead.

Phil, yes, it's certainly possible to 'stick' the thread to the top of the folder. However, one thing I've noticed with the threads we currently have highlighted is that they don't show from the front of the boards; what shows there as the latest post is the thread just below the highlighted one. Now, if there's a new post in the TE warning thread, that will of course make the TE thread show up on the front of the boards; but that won't last beyond someone else posting in another thread in FF-related.

A thought: I know it makes the front of the boards bigger still, but maybe a new folder, purely for TE warning threads? That would mean that anyone who doesn't want to be warned would never risk being spoiled by accident, because they'd never need to go into that folder. As for new posts, all new posts will show up on the front of the boards; and if the mod who posts the warning uses the 'alert' triangle or something like it, that will also draw readers' attention to the new post.

Any good?


Wendy

I don't think that you have stronger feelings on the issue, Phil, although I do appreciate that you find this issue deeply offensive at a personal level and I can sympathise with that. As in all cases where there is a divide, people feel strongly about it on all sides. However, the issue will never be resolved if people approach debating it in emotive terms. What we need is calm discussion and that's why this poll was presented. I'm sure that all sides of this dispute are eager for a solution acceptable to all and that we can work together to achieve that, as much as is possible.

I don't think we would claim it's 100% foolproof or that it's an ideal solution. It's a very tricky one to solve and you may be right, there may be no solution. This was the best suggestion we could come up with and we do appreciate that it places the burden on those who don't want to be surprised and asks them to compromise, while those who do enjoy being surprised aren't really being asked to make any contribution or change their reading habits. If there was something else we could do that placed that burden more evenly, that would obviously be something we would embrace wholeheartedly. At the moment though, this seems to be the only plausible and practical solution that will go at least some way to ensuring that no one's fun is spoiled. And the feeling among the moderators was that it was better than nothing.

But perhaps if you find this solution unacceptable you could suggest another? We're not saying we have the magic wand to make everyone happy here. Compromises are going to have to be made - as in all disputes. We'll welcome any solution anyone can suggest.

This, however, is clearly a non-starter, since it's barely any different from putting an advance warning in the header. It spoils the surprise for those who want to be surprised. While, appreciating that you want to avoid being surprised, Phil - and trying to ensure that there's a way to give you that is the purpose of this poll and suggestion - there are other povs that also need to be catered to, here.

Yes, this was already part of the plan as discussed by the moderators. Any Tank Ending Warning thread would be 'stickied' to the top of the folder, so that it remains easily accessible at all times.

Any suggestions on this one welcome. I'm sure it must be possible.

I'm not sure why TE fans would object - as I understand your proposal, you're simply asking for an indication that a TE warning has been added to the thread. Which seems perfectly reasonable to me. There's no need to indicate outside the thread itself which specific post the warning applies to. So where is the spoiler? Am I missing something?

LabRat (who really doesn't have strong feelings about any type of TE either way)

Ok, there is a TE warning. A person that doesn't like TE read the post that indicates the story that has the TE posted. If you like to be surprised by the TE you don't read the TE warning thread.

It would be this way?

Jose

Yes, Jose. A specific thread would be set up, separate from the fanfic, and it would contain warnings for each TE post made. Each time an author posts a TE a warning for it would be added to the thread. Those not wanting to be surprised check out the thread, those who don't care wouldn't have to.

Again...not perfect by any manner of means and it does mean extra work for some readers. But unless someone comes up with something better...all we can really think of at the moment that might help ease the issue.

LabRat

Thanks for the explication LabRat.

Jose

This is an interesting discussion. While I am one of thoses that loves TE's and likes to read them without a warning, I can certainly symphatize with readers who don't like it.

Recently I found I like whams a lot (okay, so very surprising), and reading TE's is something I like then. The surprise element without the label is what makes it fun. Most of the TE's I read lately are also very hillarious. And that is only because you don't know in advance you're reading a TE.

I have to say that while reading the story, it should become obvious it's a TE. Just a few lines at the end doesn't work for me.

So I don't like to see them labelled. Pam's suggestion should in my opinion work pretty well. The thread is highlighted, so it's always on top of the folder, and you can easily see then if a new post has been made. I don't think it's that much extra work to check if there is a new TE.
And people who don't want to loose the surprise of the new post just don't check the thread.

Wendy's idea of a new forum sounds good to me too. Maybe we can even put a password on it. That way people who just want to read, can't even get in without the password. So it's completely up to them to be able to enter the thread.

I have this feeling I'm not making much sense anymore. I hope it's clear what mean.

Saskia

In all honesty, Phil, it's quiet easy to tell when the TE subject has been up dated ...

The date and time of the last post made to any given tread is visiable without actually clicking inside the topic.

Example, from the Fanfic Forum:

Topic: Comments - Medical Miracles 12 (13/14)
Topis Starter: Xanabee
Number of replies: 3
Date/time of last post: May 16, 2003 08:17 AM
Who posted it, which is a hyperlink: by TriciaW

That hyperlink will take you to that specific post.

When you see the thread has been updated, then you know there's a TE somewhere. For those who don't want to be spoiled, then they can have some fun trying to find it, for those who really don't want to know, click on the name of the admin who posted the warning and it will take you that very post to let you know which fic has the TE. That's two, maybe three extra clicks. We can make sure that the topic doesn't get too long over time for those on 56k modems.

As Labby pointed out, yes those not wanting the TEs are the only one's making a compromise, but your statement wanting them gone altogether is not an acceptable solution, and there really is no way for those wanting to be surprise to compromise that element ... and someone has to compromise as we are unable to please everyone and I don't expect to here.

We are more than willing to help resolve this. If you come up with some other suggestion, please let us know and we'll be more than happy to discuss it.

I was also thinking, maybe we should make this a stickied topic in the fanfic folder... minimizes the work for TE-avoiders (of which I am one!). Enter the folder, check for a new post to the stickied thread, and go from there.

And the first post in the thread can be a short explanation of what tank endings are, and how to deal with them, as an author and a reader. That'll help the newbies catch on quickly, I hope.

This plan *will* require an extra step from authors -- they'd have to send a note first, and then wait til the notice was posted before posting their TE. And I know it'll be hard to wait once you've got something that's ready to post But an e-mail to admins@lcficmbs will reach seven of us (currently) and the first one to see it will handle it, so I don't think it should be too much of a delay. And speaking as an author, I'd like to avoid offending my audience if I can

No, it's not a perfect solution... but it's the closest thing we've been able to think of. All suggestions respectfully considered

PJ

Dear Wendy, Rat, and anyone else reading this,

I hope that my previous post was not taken by anyone as "emotive" or "hostile"; it was meant to be a calm entry into a debate that I admit has had its emotional side in the past. Like this post, it is merely my attempt to put forward one side of the argument and express my feelings and reservations about the various proposed solutions to the problem. In particular, no-one should feel that I am attacking them personally, even if I disagree with what they have to say; any perceived hostility is not intended to be there, and is an artefact of the limited level of communication available through an MB like this one.

Truth be told, I do not care that much about TEs; if people want to write them and read them, and even give AltKerths for them, good luck to them all! Enjoy, and remember that, in the words of Chief Vitalstatistix, "The only thing we have to fear is the sky falling on our heads!" (or, in the case of a typical TE, Prometheus, Nightfall, massed nuclear arsenals and/or a dead Superman... ) The important point is that I don't want to read them, and at present I am not being given the choice!

It seems to me that this debate will not and cannot get anywhere as long as one fundamental principle is insisted on by the pro-TE lobby, namely that the "surprise" of a UTE is paramount and must never be spoiled by a warning. Since that very surprise is the real thing that I object to, I can hardly be expected to be sympathetic to that argument!

[A note: I refer to myself, both above and below, but I'm in no way egotistical enough to insist that my wants and concerns are the be-all and end-all of the matter (I'm not Lex Luthor; considering what I regularly do to the guy in fics, I'm hardly going to imitate him! ). I do, however, consider my attitude to this matter to be representative of those FoLCs who, like me, object to UTEs, so pardon the seeming monomania, okay?]

With that in mind, comments such as this one do not seem to me to advance the debate any, because they continue to insist on the stumbling block of the whole discussion -- that it doesn't matter what happens so long as the "surprise" of a UTE is protected. I'm afraid that I find Rat's mention of "other povs" rather ironic, because, as far as I can tell, only one pov is being given any weight -- namely that the "surprise" is everything, and those who object to it are of lesser importance than those who love it!

[I pause at this point to reiterate that no-one, and especially not our favourite Rat, should take offence at what I say here. This is intended to be a calm, rational discussion, and I have no intention of slinging mud, flaming or whatever; it is possible to agree to disagree, and I know many FoLCs do disagree with me on this -- doesn't mean we can't still be friends, I hope.]

Why do I say "lesser importance"? Because all the solutions require non-TE-fans to actively seek to avoid TEs: we must wait a few hours before reading the boards so that the author of a UTE will have time to change the thread title after the "joke" is sprung on its victims; or check a warning thread (or folder!) every time we visit the board to see who's playing the joke today; or whatever method is adopted. There is no mention of TE fans having to do anything for our convenience, so I find talk of a "compromise" rather disturbing because there is nothing of the sort. I could draw an analogy with certain political processes here, but that would really make people mad...

To use a different (and doubtful?) analogy, it's like smoking. I don't smoke, and I don't like the smell of smoke; if others want to smoke, that's their choice, but I don't want to breathe in their smoke. A smoking "compromise" along the same lines as the suprise-is-paramount TE fans insist on would leave me with no choice in the matter -- the smokers put the smoke in the air and I have to live with it, or avoid it, regardless of how much effort that may take.

Later, Rat said regarding my suggestion of a prominent Warning thread: Perhaps. My feeling that TE fans would object to my proposal is based on that same unwavering principle -- that the "surprise" should not be spoiled -- that is causing the debate. The very existence of a TE Warning thread and whatever method of indicating a new entry in it is employed can be taken as a spoiler: while I might say, "Oh, good, a TE warning -- let's see whose post I don't have to bother reading," a TE fan's reaction might be, "Oh, there's a new TE post -- must be X's new chapter. Oh, blast, now it's not a surprise!" See the problem?

To be honest, I repeat that I'm not sure that there is a solution because of this basic sticking point, which puts us all in an unfortunate position. Nonetheless, I will continue to push for all TEs to be labelled as such, with no exceptions, because all that is lost that way is the surprise factor, and that "joke", IMO, is old, tired and tedious beyond belief.

Phil

PS. While I was writing this, Annette commented on my earier post, and I'd like to respond.

First, Annette, I'm not asking for TEs to be gone (though I wouldn't miss them if they were); I just want them labelled -- identified as what they are. And, frankly, I consider my wishes no less acceptable than the view that the surprise element of a UTE is more important than any other point in this debate -- which is the underlying principle behind the pro-TE argument.

Secondly, I don't quite understand what the point you're trying to make as regards updating a TE Warning thread -- I know all of what you say; that's why I made the suggestion. The passage you quote is simply my expectation that TE fans might object to the idea, which I consider could be a logical extension of the surprise-is-all-important argument. Note that I don't accuse anyone of objecting in this manner -- yet.

I think that categorising this as a pro-TE lobby is overstating it a little, Phil and that the charges you make here and repeat elsewhere in your post are somewhat unfair.

The problem is that there are two diverging interests to be catered to here. There really isn't much that can be done - at least that we're currently aware of and if anyone knows differently please do speak up! - by those whose enjoyment of TEs will be spoiled by headers on posts to solve the problem. There is something - minimal but better than nothing - that those whose fun is spoiled reading unlabelled TEs can do to help themselves.

Yes, that means - as I've already clearly stated - that one side is being asked to go a mile further than the other. But really there's no way around that. Unless you want to work from a position that only the wishes of those who don't want to be surprised count here and should be paramount and that the requirements of the opposing pov should simply be ignored. You've already stated that this isn't your position, so we have to work to achieve some solution for both sides of the divide.

There is no agenda here to help one side of the divide over another nor is it a case that one side's pov is paramount over another's or being more sympathetically responded to. It is simply that practicalities and an acceptance of the reality of limited options dictate how the problem can be eased. Again, if you have a solution that evens the balance, please do let us hear it! We're looking for a compromise here, but we can only go so far towards that on our own. Without co-operation from both sides of the divide we'll get nowhere pretty fast.

From the comments in your last post, you seem to be missing that last point - it's the practicalities of the situation that shape the solution - not any agenda, or bias or attempts to help one side over the other. If you have a way to circumvent those practical boundaries we'll all be delighted to hear your ideas. If you don't have, then surely you have to accept - just as the rest of us do and have - that there's no other way around the problem?

Yes, I see your point. Perhaps that's simply the extra mile that the other pov will have to accept. On most days of the week, more than one story segment is posted to the fanfic folder, so being able to identify the story from the warning thread would be a fairly rare occurance. Perhaps the odd TE would be spoiled. Again, compromise doesn't mean everyone gets exactly what they want.


LabRat

The point I was trying to make is this:



This is a sample from the previous page. You can tell from here that Labby posted a comment a few mins ago. If this were the TE warning post, I'd know just by looking at this a TE must exsist some where.

Clicking on Labby's name will tell me what fanfic has a TE, so now I can aviod it if I choose.

This is a problem that, on the face of it, seems a zero-sum game. Either one half of the group is happy, or the other is; no middle ground. We've had this discussion before, and not come up with anything. Either of the two extreme solutions will be, by definition, unfair. So far, we've gone with what's wanted by a perceived majority.

I'm trying to create a middle ground that will respect *both* sides.

It's not a perfect solution. It requires an extra step for those who want to avoid TE's (and also for the authors who post them), but no extra work for those who like TE's. Unfortunately, I don't see a practical way around that.

And between you and me, if the choices are no warnings whatsoever (currently) and warnings that I have to work for a little (compromise)... I'll take the ones I can get.

My main question in this thread is, will this compromise help, or is it extra work with no practical benefit for anyone? I don't believe that the extra step of checking a special thread is an onerous burden. Is it perfectly fair? No. Is it more fair than what we've got now? Yes.

However... if anyone out there has a brilliant suggestion that will even things up, I'll be delighted to adopt it.

PJ
who personally dislikes TE's but likes to please the largest number of people possible

Oh, I don't know that they'd have to check the list *every* time they read a story. It's not like we're all cranking out a TE a day or something.

And it seems to me that the people who seriously hate TEs or UTEs are going to want to take an active measure to avoid them...it has to be better than right now where there's nothing to do but be disappointed because a reader realizes that a) it's an outrageous TE that they have no interest in or b) you reach the end of the story and Lois gets eaten by a fish or something.

And the authors probably want to keep their readers happy--the people who want to be surprised can still be surprised by leaving the folder alone, and others who might still want to read it (like myself) can read it prepared. And the people who hate TEs all together have a means of avoiding them.

The only solution that includes this way of reading fanfic is having no solution right now.

And again, it just seems to me that if there's someone out there who seriously despises TEs, checking a folder once in a while isn't that big of a deal. Me, for example, I love TEs...the more outrageous, the better, but I really do prefer to be warned first. I'm more than willing to check the folder.

But that's just my $0.02. And really, I don't see any other option besides a) doing nothing or b) making a sticky thread in a forum (or a new folder). Frankly, I'm leaning towards b. It's not perfect, but hey, nothing's perfect in life.

JD

Well, here's another idea to chuck into the pot. How about a TE register? People who want TE warnings register their preference, then whenever an author gets the urge to post a TE, they first drop a warning email to everyone on the list.

Off the top of my head:

Disadvantages - people on the register have to publish their email addresses somewhere, unless you set up a mailing list on Yahoo or something. And yes, they have to take action, whereas surprise-lovers don't.

Advantages - you don't have to do much to know that a TE is out there; just check your email. Authors could wait a day or so before posting just to be sure people had a chance to read their email.

Anything else I haven't thought of? Throw your rotten tomatoes this way...

Yvonne