Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Off Topic Way Too Dependent!

Yes, this has been my impression. That it isn't people who are naturally or normally without manners who are behaving in this way. And that's what makes it so odd that it's become a normal part of using mobiles.

It seems that mobile phones have engendered a whole new breed of habits and ways of thinking that seem perfectly normal to thousands of people who use them - who don't seem to realise they're being rude at all. And that puzzles me, because I have no idea why that would be.

Actually, in a lot of ways, the same thing seems to have happened with the net. I often encounter behaviour on the net which I am absolutely sure the people doing it would be horrified to do in 'real life'. Would never think of doing in 'real life'. Yet, somehow, because it's online it's not considered to be rude or obnoxious or mean or plain wrong in the same way as it would be offline.

I mean, when you think about it - let's take multi-tasking. You're on irc. As well as chatting to your buddies, you're off surfing the web, reading email, writing, beta reading...which when you get right down to it really means you're being terribly rude and leaving the channel and then coming back to pick up the conversation later.

I remember being quite taken aback when someone - a newbie to irc - told me that this was like being in a group of people at a party and suddenly wandering off in the middle of the conversation, without an 'excuse me'. And you know - she was right. It's exactly like that. And yet...none of us think about it. It seems a perfectly natural thing to do. Something we don't question and don't get offended by.

And then there's the number of people who seem to believe that if you cheat on an exam using information from the net it's not cheating at all. Where did that one come from?

It's very weird. <G>

LabRat (who loves the net though, for all its quirks and faults <g> )

Lab, I'm totally with you on the convenience of having the cell phone while at the grocery so you can pick up those little slips - a forgotten item or a substitution question. Ken often calls me to tell me he's stopping and do I need him to pick up anything. It's those people walking up and down the aisle pushing their carts and chatting about all sorts of non-grocery issues that make me want to scream. It looks to me like they couldn't find a buddy to go shopping with and can't stand not having someone to talk to, so they just call someone.

Totally agree with Tank here. Something that initially was intended to help people gain back some free time has been put to use in such a way that it's done exactly the opposite. I mean, originally, what a great concept. Instead of going into the office on a slow work day, someone could go to the park, take along his cell phone in case of an emergency and enjoy some time away without worry that problems couldn't be handled. But instead employers seem to think that if they issue employees cell phones, the employees are then accessible for all manner of work items 24/7. Heck, even if the cell phone isn't employer-provided, the employer feels free to call. Maybe the key is to never give your employer your cell phone number.

Ken never takes his full vacation time earned. It's next to impossible because he rarely has a string of days that he doesn't have some critical deadline. Causes me no end of grief since I'm of the opinion that unless workers start to stand up and complain (dare I say - we need a return of the Unions?), things will only get worse. So when he gets calls on his very rare vacation days I get quite upset. Needless to say he doesn't let me answer his cell phone.

It's like Federal Express. Funny how twenty years ago we all managed just fine using normal post. Now everything - regardless of urgency - absolutely must be had the next day simply because it can now be done. Thus a whole new pressure on companies and their employees to meet insane deadlines, to do more work in less time. What started off as a time-saver to help relieve stress has actually added to the stress.

Which then supports what Yvonne is saying about people being less organized. Because you *can* ship something out for receipt next day, you *can* push projects to their very last possible minute. You don't have to plan ahead or manage time carefully, or, god forbid, actually say no to new projects simply because you already have a full docket. Except, instead of filling that time you gain by not being organized (those five extra minutes you didn't spend looking at the train schedule) with leisure activities, we simply shove more work into the slot. People no longer procrastinate on projects because they are lazy, it's because they have too many other things that must be done first. I know that's exactly the way I used to work. Everything shipped out via FedEx because we had no choice but to work on it only after it became the most critical project on the table.

I think you could say it's the case for almost every modern invention today. Faxes. Laptops. All of this stuff that is supposed to lighten work loads and make life easier. But life hasn't gotten easier. It's just gotten faster and thus more full with more expectations.

As for the rudeness factor, I do agree that it's rude to take a cell phone call while in company of another person. I suppose if you answered your phone and it was important, a simple "Do you mind if I take this call?" is good manners, and I'd have no problem with it. But like Yvonne, I'd be feeling a bit used if I was nothing more than a warm body steering the car.

It doesn't bother me as much the technically bad manners on IRC though. I guess because chatting on channel and multi-tasking is something that can be done without others knowing it is happening if the doer pays a bit of attention. However, I admit to being one of those people who finds it very hard to multitask on IRC because I do feel like I'm ignoring the crowd while I surf or write or whatever. That's why I don't go on very often anymore - as much as I loved talking to everyone, I simply couldn't afford the time it took.

Lynn

I don't have a phone other than my cell phone

I turn off the ringer when I'm at work and I don't answer it when I'm busy, but it is the only personal phone I have, so it is the best way to reach me. I resisted getting a cell phone until I started law school (my philosophy was that only doctors and drug dealers need to be that accessible). The school's phone plan was so limited and so expensive that the cell phone was significantly cheaper. Now, I'm pretty much expected to have a cell phone so that work can always reach me and I have absolutely no use for a land line.

My job also provides me with a Blackberry, so I'm always getting my work emails, no matter where I am. It is a bit annoying being that connected to work, since it seems I can never escape it. On the other hand, If I'm not busy, I can always leave and know that if anyone needs me, they'll be able to get in touch with me.

Okay, the grocery store thing. I used to work 8 hour shifts at my neighborhood grocery store to earn money for college. It's like a prison, for one thing. It was the only job that would have fit into my schedule this summer, but I've done my time. I'd rather be poor and unemployed than...wait, halting this tangent.

Anywho, I absolutely hated it when my customers were chatting away on their cell phones about everything under the sun while I was trying to check them out. I always felt like I had to interrupt their conversations to get them to pay, inform them their coupon expired, sorry I'm out of stamps you'll have to get them at customer service, etc etc. Yes, I'll be the first one to say specially trained monkeys could have done my job, but those poeple gossiping on their cell phones kinda needed to be front and center. Maybe not quite as much as the elderly people who watched the price of every item I rang and then started whining about such-n-such not being on sale anymore. But I shouldn't have run into obstacles while doing my job just because Mary Sue assumed that she could ignore me. Not to mention the fact that during an 8 hour shift, even one customer that took the time to talk to me made my day!

Jen

Well, that's just another example of being plain rude, Jen. Shame on them.

LabRat (who now remembers why she hated working with the public...and that was way before mobiles hove into view... )

I have a cellphone which I usually have with me when I go outside. Not because I have to be reachable at all times, nope. It's just i use my cellphone as a watch. I don't feel comfortable with something clinging to my arm anymore, so...

And, I usually use around $13 per month, and I'm the one who pays that bill, so. Well, it's not that bad, I think. I mean, most of my friends uses around $13 on one-two weeks... Myah!

Well, I'm of the opinion that if a company can't resist calling its employees when they're not at work, then someone is doing a very poor job of managing and the company is heading for disaster. What if one of these indispensible employees falls under the proverbial bus? What will the company do then? Run around like headless chickens for two months until a replacement can be found?

Personally, when I'm not working, I'm not available. Full stop, end of story. Like Lynn, the building has to have blown up or burned down for work to justify contacting me out of hours. I've always worked that way and always will.

Yvonne

In my line of work, unfortunately it is not possible to limit ourselves to the hours that would be convenient for us. Lawyers are in a client-service profession and if our client gets served with a subpoena after hours, we have to deal with it. On the corporate law side, if our client wants a deal done in three days and that means enlisting our California and Asia office attorneys to work on it so that the client can get round the clock service and have the work done on time, we do it.

It's not a civilized way to do business and I believe it is the by-product of firms and corporations treating each other like entities and not groups of people who have families and lives. To me, my client is an investment bank, not an analyst who would really like to get home early enough to attend her daughter's ballet recital, or a banker who has dinner plans with his fiancee that he doesn't want to break for the third night in a row. Similarly, their lawyer is an entity that bears the name of three long-dead white men, not someone trying to plan her roommate's surprise birthday party while working until past midnight on a Friday. Like I said, this isn't a civilized way to do business, but it is the way American business is done and other parts of the world are moving more toward our model, as opposed to us moving toward theirs. If you have money in a pension, 401K, or IRA, it is the fund managers handling your money who are putting the pressure on our clients to burn the candle at both ends to achieve results. Our clients cannot succeed if their advisors don't work the same obscene hours they do.

Companies can fall apart and thousands of people could lose their jobs if a legal problem is dealt with improperly. Our clients pay us rather handsomely to ensure that that is not the case. As a result, we're expected to work until the job is done and to make sure it is done right the first time. We wouldn't be worth our salaries were that not the case. We all knew when we accepted the job and the perks that went with it, that long hours were expected. People who don't want to put that sort of strain on themselves and their families go part time or leave the firm. It's not a fair trade off, but work in finance is unlikely to get kinder and gentler unless shareholders decide that they are happy with smaller returns.

Well, in my case, the landline exists purely because I have to have it to get DSL; I almost never use it. The cell phone is my normal means of communication, in part because the long distance is included; that means I don't have to worry about budgeting myself when I call my sweetheart at night. (Given that we talk for at least an hour per night and frequently two or three, that makes a difference. Our conversations usually end when the battery gives out. ) Not to mention being able to reach my parents on theirs without having to dig up their itenerary to see what hotel they're in right now, or when they hadn't found a hotel at the time they sent me the list.....

So far as answering during another conversation, it depends on relative priorities; unless we're in Bible Study praying (phone doesn't go to church), I'll usually answer for Emi or my parents to see if it's anything urgent and let them know I'll call back later. I wouldn't hold an actual conversation around someone else in most cases -- though if I'm with Emi and my parents call, she usually tells me to talk to them immediately rather than promising to call back.

I hear what you're saying Rac, I really do. I also work in a service-oriented profession - IT - and have the bags under my eyes to prove it <g>. We stay until the thing is fixed, even if that means overnight and into the next day. We wait until the users have gone home so that they don't have to suffer any downtime. We work the weekends, the public holidays and any other holidays normal people get. None of that is anything special, I know - lots of other professions have to do the same.

But when I finally do go home for some downtime, that's sacrosanct. When I book holiday, that's my time, not the company's.

I guess that's a discipline that's not so easy for you to impose if a client discovers s/he needs you at 3am in the morning.

Actually, the worst type of working is when you're on call. I did that for a few years on Sundays, and while it's great to be able to remain at home instead of babysitting the computers at work, it doesn't half put a blight on your social life. You can't have a glass of wine with your lunch in case you're called in the afternoon. You have to remain within reasonable travelling distance of the office, so no jaunts to the seaside if it's a sunny day. You have to answer the phone even if it's not the person you're on call for but some other jerk who's got hold of your number.

Anyway, what was the subject again? Oh, yeah, mobile phones. Oops. Sorry about the rant.

Yvonne

One thing that drives me crazy...

I work as a librarian at a largish county public library. Frequently, a customer comes up to my desk, gets my attention, and starts to ask for help (finding a book, signing up to use the computer, etc.). Suddenly, in the middle of the conversation, they get a cell phone call. They hold a finger up to me (indicating "just a minute) and then start talking on their cell phone.

It's especially a pain because I can't really concentrate on the other work I'm doing while they're standing at my desk, but I don't have enough information from them yet to start the book search... I do my absolute best to make my displeasure known by tapping my fingers on the desk or giving them impatient looks. My favorite is, after giving them a minute in case they just want to tell the person that they're at the library and will call them right back, then I just continue our conversation where we left off, as if I haven't noticed that they're on the cell phone. Usually that will make them stalk off to the lobby to have their conversation... and good riddance!

Rac, like Yvonne I do understand what you're saying about the necessity of being able to get ahold of certain people in order to keep things running smoothly or even keep things from becoming critical. Certain professions kind of come with the disclaimer that work hours will not be 9 to 5 or five days a week but more like 24/7 - professions such as doctors, lawyers, IT professionals, etc. And when you add to the mix the fact that it's a global market where half the world is awake and working while the other half is sleeping, there seems to be no such thing as a normal work week any longer.

But I think what always stumps me is that it wasn't always like this. There was a time not that long ago when cell phones did not exist. Or beepers for that matter. Doctors had answering services who could reach them in emergency situations. Clients understood that a person was on vacation and out of the office until Monday and therefore were not available. Companies covered the absences of employees with other employees. And the world turned around rather nicely.

Now, however, companies lead you to believe that if you were to be unavailable for consultation even long enough to take a shower, the entire capatilistic structure would collapse. No one is ever willing to wait any longer. (Again, I do understand that certain situations cannot be postponed, but I'd argue they are in the minority by far.) Everyone *must* have what they need now. No one is willing to wait, and it's a situation we've inadvertently created by making it possible for people to have everything with a phone call at any time of the day or night.

So it's exactly as Rac has described. Companies are no longer made up of workers with lives. And sadly, it's no longer the demanding and paying-for-service clients who take advantage of people but the very employers themselves. They demand that employees sacrifice everything or else risk losing a good job. That's pretty sad.

I guess if I agree to work for a company for a certain salary, I want to know how much of my life that company now owns. And if it turns out the company owns my entire life - every single minute I must be available for consultation - then I want to renegotiate my salary substantially upward. Companies reap the benefit in the way of happy clients and more money gotten off the sacrifice of employees' personal lives. Seems a tad bit inequitable if you ask me.

Like I'm always saying to Ken, no one lies on his or her deathbed and wishes he/she had spent more time at the office. But I have a feeling that our generation and the ones to follow will really bear the burden of the now blurry line between being in the office and being unavailable.

Meerkat, I think if I were you the minute it becomes clear that the person is not just answering to say "Call you back later" I'd gather up the stuff in a neat pile, back my computer out of this person's records, and call for the next person in line to step forward. Pretend that rude cell phone call taker is no longer even standing there!

Lynn

And the crazy thing is that people with lives generally make better workers. Drones are great for stamping out widgets and sticking labels on boxes, but if you want some original thinking, a little creativity, an understanding of human nature, or up-to-date knowledge of world affairs, then you need someone who's plugged into life, not a robot who's divorced from it.

Yvonne

This is one of those blue moons when I dropped in to read "off topic" and I've been rewarded. I think some really good points have been made all around. I'd like to add one final strong belief of mine--having been both workaholic and 'lazy bum' at various times in my career. I thought that the 'job owned me'...but the truth is that I let it.

It is each of our individual responsibilities to prioritize our lives in such a way that we live in our values first and our needs second. Let's not kid ourselves--coming home late and missing a child's school activity is a "choice". It means that I/you/he/she's values are more oriented toward whatever the "work" brings than the particular family activity for example. Are we willing to pay the price of leaving the office by--enduring a late night tomorrow, lost brownie points, whatever? Or, if we're paid an hourly wage, and the extra time is truly the difference between paying bills and not,it helps to acknowledge that "the job isn't making me" stay...it's that "my responsibility to pay the bills" is something I value. Taking back control of the situation can help one feel less frustrated by being "on call". I have a dear friend who travels a great deal and tries like heck to be home to tuck his three sons in. Sometimes he's away a good part of the week. But he makes up the time by giving them his full attention when he *is* home and he let's them know that the only reason he stays away is so they can have fun things.

I find that my blackberry has been instrumental in enabling me to conduct both my life and my work with no one the wiser. But I exercise discipline by NOT having it with me on social occasions--or in announcing to my companion 'I apologize for leaving this on, but there is one phone call I expect that I will have to take. Forgive me.' Usually, my companions are accommodating because the alternative is that we'd NEVER be able to have a social engagement in the first place. On the flip side, I've been known to be with a customer and answer the phone for a family member saying "Are you dead or dying?. Because if not I have to hang up on you now." That invariably gets a laugh while sending a message to my customer that I CHOOSE to take a phone call if I know it's a family member calling.

So, as with so many things, we can demonize the tool. But it's only rude/foolish/too much etc. in the hands of an individual.

My two cents. Have fun watching the Jackson verdict!

Sherry

Well, I never expected my mini-rant to breed such a fascinating thread. It's been so interesting reading all your posts.

Meercat, I'd ask why cell phones are allowed the sacrilege of ruining all that blessed library silence - except that I worked as an assistant librarian for ten years and know that one has long since been abandoned. And that was before cell phones were invented.

If it were me though, I'd be sorely tempted to leave the room and let them stand there for at least ten minutes after they finished their call before I came back to attend to them. Or, as Lynn says, yell 'Next!'. Perhaps that would buck their ideas up. Or at the very least point up to them how mannerless they're being.


LabRat

I used to believe that too. I'm a lawyer after all. And I used to give out my home phone number to clients (in the days before the surpremecy of the cell phone). Yep. I worked 24/7. When I wasn't in the office, I'd be taking calls from clients or bringing work home. But then I worked long hours in school, too. So I thought it was just part of the practice.

I believed that right up until I had my nervous break-down. I can remember sitting out on the steps of a friend's house, tears streaming down my cheeks, with a friend who told me that I was killing myself - that I needed to take some time off. I told her that I couldn't - I had to be available at all times for my clients. The remainder of the conversation went as follows:

"What would happen if you died of a heart attack tonight? You wouldn't be much good to your clients then."

"I'm not going to die of a heart attack tonight."

"But what would happen then?"

"I don't know. I guess I'd have to call Mike and ask him to take the matters I have in court tomorrow. And I'd need to call Paula and tell her..."

"ML, you're dead. You can't call anyone."

Two weeks later, I had a complete breakdown. I couldn't get groceries without bursting into tears (deciding between butter and margarine is very stressful, you know ). I had to quit my job and take stress leave.

That took place during the second season of Lois and Clark (nice how I worked that in, eh? ). Since that time, I guard my 'me time' as precious. I refuse to carry a cell phone or even wear a watch. And I write Lois and Clark stories to keep from allowing work to clog up my brain in the evening.

Maybe there are people out there who can work 24/7. But I'm not one of them. If you need a lawyer and I'm not available, please call someone else. I won't be at all offended. I'd rather be sane than be your lawyer.

And you know what? Since I took that attitude, I've been a much better lawyer. More is not always better.

ML

You go, ML!!

He's got a new job now, in Canada. And he doesn't do that any more. He works 9-5 - sometimes to 6 - and gets much more job satisfaction. He's still in a relatively senior position. Sure, he's taken a pay cut compared to what he used to earn in the UK - but hour for hour he's paid more now. The company doesn't have our cellphone number. They have the home number but, since he started, have never used it. And in fact no-one in this company works later than around 6, other than dire emergency. He says the place is like a ghost town come 5.15!

And his health has improved. But not before he had a mini-stroke and lost some of the vision in one eye - directly attributable to work-related stress. Be warned - like ML's experience (and I'm so glad you're better now, ML!), working too hard can seriously injure your health. It can even kill you.

The long hours culture is dangerous, bad for us and actually bad for the economy - stressed and demotivated workers mean lower productivity, more days lost through illness, higher staff turnover and so on. (When I was an academic, I carried out a survey on this three years running - always, there was a very high correlation between long hours, stress and illness).


Wendy

As for the library thing, I'm often sort of trapped. Most of the time there *is* no other person in line (even at a busy library, with four people on the desk the line goes fast most of the time), and I have to stay at my computer. But I do generally ignore them or try to force them to realize how rude they're being. Though, you know, I find much of how I react to such situations depends on what kind of mood I'm in... if I'm in a bad mood, I refuse to give an *inch* on the rules, etc.

And as for libraries being bastions (is that the word I mean?) of silence... that is no more. Our rules officially changed from "Cell phone use is not permitted in the library" to "cell phones are only permitted in the library if conversations are brief and quiet and the ringer is set to silent." Even that doesn't hold, much. Although some of our worst offenders are... the police. They come in to use the computer, and I don't know if they're on duty or what, but they have these radios (walkie-talkies, cell phones, something) that every 30 seconds or so give off a little ring and you can hear somebody talking as if they're on speaker phone. Ugh, it's *such* a pain in the butt. Of course, they help with discipline, so we tolerate them.

I'm glad to hear the stories of people who were workaholics and found their way out of it. We actually had a sermon at church the other day that talked about the dangers of workaholism, how it can be a disease almost as much as alcoholism, how it can destroy families to the same degree, etc.

The kids/teens who need to be in constant contact with their friends worry me as much as the adults, honestly. It's almost as addicting as television or the computer... constant entertainment with no real value. Chatting constantly about nothing, etc. And having your friends to entertain you while you walk to classes, grocery shop, or do chores keeps people from having to think, look around, enjoy the weather, daydream, and experience all of the other private enjoyments of solitude. It somehow seems a loss to me, even though I do the same thing (okay, maybe it's walking around reading a book, but still).

I do have a cell phone, but half the time I forget to charge it. I always figure that I can recharge it in the car, although if my battery died that wouldn't happen. I can change my own tires, however.

Fascinating discussion, this. In the military there's an axiom: "If the the government wanted you to have a life, they'd issue you one."
But, even given that, there is some attention to designating one person "on call" for a set time to handle urgent matters.
I remember going into work at 5 a.m. my time to talk to Washington where it was 8 a.m. Interestingly, they left at 5 or 6 p.m. their time, so things would quiet down on my end after 2 p.m. I remember phone calls at home around midnight, but it really was urgent and the next day's operation hinged on a decision. So I did it. All this was before cell phones.
Now we are retired and have a cell phone and like Rac's parents, the kids can reach us anytime, anywhere, any hotel/condo/airport. But we don't spend a lot of time chatting on it. I spend more time here on the boards and irc.
I do have a favorite story of mine about the excesses of cell phone use. I had just finished a meeting in Tucson, Az and was at the airport to fly home. The line at America West was out the door with people like me, tired and wanting to get home. A lady with 2 kids finally gets up to an agent and she's talking to a friend/sister/whatever on her cell phone. She keeps talking while she is in front of the agent. He is waiting to hear the flight she wants to go on. She keeps talking on her cell and gestures to her 10 year old son to give the agent the tickets. He says "I don't have any tickets".
The line starts to get restless. Departure time is approaching for a lot of us. Finally the agent says to the woman, "Ma'am. I need your full attention. You need to put down the cell phone."
She says "Just a minute" to the cell phone, then starts yelling at her son "I told you to go into the den to get the tickets!" Now the success of the whole trip is riding on the shoulders of a 10 year old boy with the mother taking no responsibility. She continues talking to her friend about a dress for some occasion. The agent still doesn't even know the flight she wants. He repeats, "Put down the cell phone." She doesn't. He gets the supervisor over, she hauls the family away to get their tickets taken care of and the agent gets to the next person in line. The woman is still talking about the dress on the cell phone.
This was all very loud and we in the line turned and eyed each other and shook our heads in mystery.
And yes, I made the plane just fine.

Artemis

Not at the library I go to! (Although admittedly, I haven't been there in quite a while. Hoping to this summer.) They have a no-cell policy, and while I've occasionally spied people in the stacks or study areas (it's a BIG place) quietly on phones, trying to do so in the face of one of the librarians would almost certainly get you tossed out.