I'm currently betaing a fic, which has made brief use of the word "f..."

I've censored the word in this post, but my question is, is that a requirement for the Archives and these mbs?

When I was writing Yesterday Upon the Stair, I was told I couldn't use that particular word in an Archives fic, and so I didn't.

But I'm thinking times have changed somewhat since then. Yvonne used the word "shit" which I personally find a stronger expletive than "f...", and I've noticed "bugger" in a couple of fics (can't remember which, sorry).

So shall I tell the author it's okay? It really is a good little scene.

c.

The F word is not acceptable anywhere on this forum, other than in the nfic folder, Carol. Actually, I believe it's included here in the automatic system which censors out unacceptable words. So even if you had used it in your post, it probably wouldn't have appeared.

Nor is it accepted as being within the PG13 rating on the Archive and it would certainly be edited out by a GE upon submission.

And, just for the record, as EIC of the Archive, I wouldn't consider 'shit' to be acceptable either. If there is an instance of it being on the Archive, then all I can think of is that it slipped through in error. And I believe, IIRC, that Yvonne was advised that it couldn't be used in her stories here on the mbs.

Bugger...that would depend on the context and may well be a cultural divide. It's not considered a strong word at all here in the UK. In fact, it's considered very mild. I have no idea what the status of it is outside the UK, however, and it may well be that elsewhere it's considered stronger.

That's part of the problem with drawing a dividing line. The variation in offence taken around the world by various words. I know that recently I was quite shocked to see a particular word appear in a post here on this forum. I'd been told in very strong terms years ago that it was on a par with the F word when I inadvertantly used it, thinking it was something mild. However, I discovered when I brought it up with the other admins that in the US it's not considered terribly awful at all.

But I think most cultures are in agreement about the F word being beyond PG13. I wouldn't be surprised if that's probably about the only one we agree on.


LabRat

I remember that the word 'shit' appeared in Yvonne's 'Addicted', Labby. It's the last word of the story, in fact But Googling the Archive for this word brings up twelve mentions of it.

I have no further comments on the subject:D

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

Hmmm... I always thought that that was a rather strong swear word in the UK, akin to the F word since when I first heard of it it was associated with perverted sex.

Just did a yahoo search and the first thing it brings up is Bugger - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Same results with Google.

So, it has a broader meaning. Still, I would find it surprising if it turned up in a FOLC FanFic.

James


.

What you should look at, Anna, is the dates on those stories. There are always some things which slip through the cracks, and there was a time, too, when stories on the Archive weren't GEd.

It's very, very difficult for any EIC to give GEs a definitive list of what's acceptable and what isn't. GEs largely have to use their own common sense, taking advice from the EIC as appropriate, and where necessary try to establish precedent from what's already on the Archive. Sometimes new policy will be made, either because a pattern seems to be established or some reader will point out something that slipped through the cracks and it's felt that GEs need to be updated on what's acceptable and what isn't.

With the s-word example, a couple of years ago (or maybe not quite that long; I can't remember exactly) LabRat in her capacity as EIC emailed all GEs to tell us that it's Archive policy that the s-word is not acceptable - I think before then most of us were working to the principle that it wasn't, but maybe one or two GEs didn't realise, or didn't see the word as quite beyond the PG13 line. Now, we all know what the policy is so we're working to the same standards on that one.

But in general you have to remember that editing stories for PG13 content is very much a judgement call. And some things are clear-cut (the f-word, for example), while others are less so. And often things will only get clarified if someone points out a potential problem. We're only human, after all.


And editing to comment on 'bugger' - yes, James, that's the literal meaning, but it's actually almost never used in that context in the UK. It's just used as a fairly mild swear-word, maybe something akin to 'dammit'. Anyway, it's not that uncommon for words to depart from their original meaning and become somewhat more acceptable - I was surprised to discover that 'jerk' is considered pretty inoffensive, given its original meaning; I wouldn't expect to see a British slang term with a similar meaning (beginning with W, for anyone wondering) to appear in a PG13 fic.


Wendy

Well, now when I see it in other UK-centric fandoms, I will have to think twice about their use of it. Thank you Wendy!

As for the change in meaning of words, like jerk, I totally understand. In the states, it basically means a rude person or someone being 'chumpy'

However, from Elisabeth's background, it totally means something else. To her and hers, it brings to mind a 'soda jerk', which is someone that works at one of those old-fashioned ice cream parlors where they make soda/pop by combining flavorings with soda water.

Words are strange and wonderful things!

James

Yes, exactly, that's why I said it depended on the context. If it's used in the normal way for the UK, it's really a very mild expletive. Dammit is a very good comparison, Wendy. I had in mind 'bloody', but dammit is a better one. If someone was to use it in its literal sense, it would probably be unsuitable for PG13.

And, of course, 'sod' is another example. You certainly wouldn't want to use it in its original sense. But that's another one that's been downgraded over time, come adrift from its literal meaning, and become a mild, even comedic, expletive. As in 'sod off'.

LabRat (who finds the origins of and changes in words fascinating...)

I posted a story in the nfic folder, using alternate term for someone's rear end and it showed up as "***" so I went back and edited to make it "a**" just so anyone reading it wouldn't wonder what the heck I was trying to say. I find it curious and funny that blatant sex gets through fine but one mere word (used in the context of teasing and not as part of a sexual description) gets edited out.

Heh. The reason for that, Sue, is that the board filters can't tell context. There's a list of words that are filtered out, no matter what the context is. And, if I remember correctly, the filter can't be turned off for one section of the board. It's either on or off.

Thanks for the explanation, Labrat.

Wendy, you're right about the timing with respect to 'S...'. I just googled the archive, and only 2 of those listed as containing the word were posted within the last 2 years - Damaged and Addicted. The others were all earlier. So Lab's memo to GEs seems to have had some effect.

About 'f... - interesting how these words are used differently. I think in North America 'f...' is more likely used in those situations where UK usage would be 'b.....'. In origin, the two words mean essentially (loosely interpreted ) the same thing.

Btw, back in the very early 20th century, "rock and roll" was orginally a slang term for the sex act (back in the very early 20th century. It then got redefined.

Although ... to use the phrase "Sex, drugs, and rock and roll" is a tad redundant. (way off topic now)

Anyway, I'll pass this on to the author of the story I'm betaing - she'll have to cut the scene, which is too bad because it was funny.

c

Really? She'll have to cut the whole scene? Seems to me she'd want to find a way to rephrase, instead -- there are milder versions of the "f" word. (Unless of course the context is a limerick and she needs a rhyme for "duck" Then she might be stuck.) English is a wonderful language like that -- tons of different words for basically the same thing, with slightly different connotations. But of course it's totally up to her.

PJ

lol, Pam!

It's a very short scene, though, and it wouldn't be nearly as funny - it depends on the word.

But generally I agree with you about finding other words to get across an idea or mood or whatever.

c.

That's right, Karen. No one went in and edited your story, Sue - it's an automatic system, set to guard the pg forums against any taboo words being posted. As Karen says, the unfortunate downside is that you can't exempt the nfic folder from the system, so the same words get automatically **** there, too. Which has led to some creative attempts to get around it in the nfic folder from authors over the years.

LabRat

Oh I never thought someone was editing the story - I knew it was a filter. It just amuses me. I guess I'm sick like that.

Well, you know what they say -- one man's "funny" is another man's "offensive." So of course we try to tilt away from the offensive side.

You know, if your author really likes the scene as is, and doesn't want to change it, there's no rule stating she has to have it on these boards or on the archives, or to have it *only* at those places. She could put it up on Annesplace instead/as well, or publish it herself on another website. No matter how much we might wish to, the boards admin staff and the archive EIC do *not* rule the whole Internet

PJ

And don't forget that's the entire purpose of the nfic folder and the nfic archive at Annesplace. Your author gets the best of both worlds. A gfic version they can post here on the mbs and submit to the Fanfic Archive and an nfic version they can post to the nfic folder and Annesplace.

Never let it be said we don't cover all bases.

That's it! That's the word I've been searching for all day. Thanks, Sue.


LabRat

lol

all this reminds me of recent controversy regarging advertisements by the Australian Tourism board enticing (or trying to entice) visitors from english speaking countries to visit..

In The last sentence in the add a blond in a bikini calls out
"where the Bloody hell are you"
Various countries decided this was too crass even for the 7-11 time slot, Canada edited out "bloody" and england edited out "hell" (or something of the sort)
The whole episode created huge controversy in Aus, nd it was hillarious to read all the editorials lambasting freedom of speech and dictatorial sensorship.
regarding whetherr or not you use a certain phrase/word in your written words all depends on what that phrase means in your culture
in Aus... Bloody= a general superlative such as damn or sugar or whatever... and in the US F### has taken on the same meaning...in Canada Bloody means litterally coverred in blood, which can be taken to the extent of menstral blood....

There was an incident at the Australian Embasy in Washington DC (during the Clinton Admin.) when the embasador held a large function in the form of the good old Aussie Barbie....(BBQ)....on the invite it was casually mentioned in the mannor of good will and friendship that the dignatories were to come in "shortsleeves, shorts and their thongs"... suprise suprise no-one turned up.... why may you ask

well the US thong is more akin to the G-String bikini.... whereas the aussie thong is what you would call a flip-flop (i dont kno sandle, Jesus' foot wear... you get the picture)

English is a wonderful language in that respect, increasingly maleable etc. It provides for many instances of intercultural confusion.... but what is more amusing is the adorable use of english coloquialisms adapted by those speaking E as a 2nd language... aka chinglish


but it is only in the active use of language that words take their meaning... so we must step back from heated arguments over who insulted who and remember
"the boy wrote on the fish lovingly, sitting next to the big, purple stiped, baby banana-tusked elephant, under the light of the dark green antelope, he then wished for a bugle with which he could tie up the fish and post it to his bedroom in order that he could watch the elephant bombard the book with mind-altering secnd helpings of penguin"
this sentence is grammatically correct in terms of verb and subject... but it only has a meaning if we asign meaning to the words.

Wow, I didn't think the f-word was *that* common just yet. Maybe I just lead a sheltered life but it's the one word I won't say and I don't know many people who use it that casually.

I understand that "bloody" has different meaning depending on which side of the Atlantic you're on and I take care *not* to use it when I'm in the UK.

Not that knowing I was saying the wrong thing stopped me from asking for a napkin in a cafe in England. Oh the look on that guy's face! "Serviette, I meant serviette..." but the damage was done. <sigh> At least I managed to refrain from calling a bum bag a "fanny pack".

I love the semantics of language! In my next life I want to be a linguist.

Sue
(who still calls flip-flops "thongs" even though she knows everyone will think she's referring to underwear.)

Why do you say that? It's used all the time in the UK, as a pretty mild swear-word. No-one's offended by its use. But it will also be used for a blood-stained item. Everything's context!


Wendy

Y'all, we shouldn't be too tough on any language where 'fat chance' and 'slim chance' mean essentially the same thing.

lol
that has to be the best post ive seen ever

well maybe that was exadgerated a bit...but it still tasted better than sex...

I call'em bum bags... F$#@$ is used here quite commonly though it is frowned apon....and i hate when i slip into the crass lowerclss usage of the word as a supurlative... i mean i am an intelegent person, why should i use a wqord like F(*&$ when it is in no way expresses my feeling of frustrations

i too would love to be a linguist or etamologist in my next life ... there just isnt enough time, and i suppose it is more profitable to be an amator linguist than an amator psychiatrist

http://www.silverladder.com/literature/chinglish/light2.jpg
is one great example of chinglish in action.... the whole site is great

i guess i have a headache now, so will continue this later (unless i get distracted)

gosh my grammer is crap...

F*&^* in no way expresses my frustrations

(delete the extra IS from -in no way IS exresses... or change expresses to expressing.)

i should be better than this but as i said i have a headache and am rambling....

Just FYI, beethoven - if you want to edit a post just click on the little pad and pen icon in the post header and that will let you back in to make any changes you want.

LabRat

The f word is quite an all encompasing word. F is worse than s to me. F can also be more directed at a person, which feels worse.

Growing up I was never allowed to say sod, buggar or bloody and my mum grew was in the UK until she was a teenager.

About the s-word...well, I was going through my personal movie collection (of about three movies ) and I noticed that my Back to the Future movie was rated "unsuitable for kids under 11", which I'm rather sure is somewhat equal to your rating pg13. And the thought struck me; Marty must use the s-word more often than I use semmicolons in a fic (ask poor Labby. I overuse them constantly...I love them so much I even have them in my tea). So, err, shouldn't the Back to the Future movie(s) be rated higher if the s-word is so harch?

Back to the Future is rated PG in the US. I think the S word is considered fairly benign in this country. My parents, who were extremely conservative in what we were allowed to watch as kids, never had a problem letting us watch the Back to the Future films . Alhough admittedly I think my mom was more concerned about our exposure to violence, etc, than profanity.

I don't think that's really true. I certainly hear the F word around here, on a college campus, but if you said it in front of your average six year old I bet her mother would be more annoyed than if you'd said damn To me, the F word is always offensive, on a level above all the rest. In any context. It's used like there's no tomorrow by the college students around me, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. I swear more these days than I did in high school, but that is definitely where I draw the line.

It's interesting to see how these things change from country to country, though!

Kaylle

(who is reminded of a formal dance at her school a couple years ago where the first song she remembers being played had a chorus of women singing "F*** me" every so many bars. Because that's romantic )

interesting - such a diversity of opinion. I'm not going to defend the use of either the S word or the F word, but I find the former much more offensive, probably because the f-word is colloquial for something rather pleasant, and the S word is, well, not.

Probably much better it we all stick to the Latin.

c

Well, sort of. Until fairly recently, it had a strong implication of nasty/tawdry, and possibly even assault. In fact, the first time I heard it used in a "nice" manner, I was shocked. (Admittedly, I grew up pretty sheltered. I was at least 12 or 13 before I found out that "snafu" didn't stand for System Normal, All Fouled Up. )

I suppose this is probably why my mother refused to let me use either one, ever. Same goes for basically any other word that is considered offensive in any English speaking country. I still remember the time a native French speaker I knew walked into a room full of elderly, American Southern Baptists and said cheerfully (and too loudly), "F***ing good day isn't it?"

You could have heard a pin drop. That was a definite conversation killer, poor guy.

Although you wouldn't catch me saying "oh sugar" either, because that just cracks me up.

Ehh... forgive a poor Swedish slob here, but what's wrong with "oh sugar"?

Ann

I think one of the most interesting elements to come out of this discussion is how many false perceptions we have about how taboo (or not) a particular word is in a particular country. I've certainly had a few surprises.

SNAFU - haven't heard that one in years. LOL. I was always a little fond of using FUBAR myself. (F%£$%£ Up Beyond All Recognition). Or for polite company, you could substitue 'Fouled'. <g> Just doesn't have the same resonance somehow, though.

My lawyer boss had a good sense of humour and I used to scrawl that one a lot on cases that had gone awry when I left them on his desk for his attention. (Although he was rather more fond of seeing 'This one's a SOBP' (Some Other Bugger's Problem) )

LabRat

The f- word...

I certainly don't use it in English. Never, ever.

But there's this word, its Greek equivalent. It's considered a very bad curseword; telling someone to 'f#$% off' is one of the worst things you can tell them.

But there's an exception. In Greek, when something goes wrong, you can say 'Oh, f#$% it!' (as if you were saying 'Oh, f#$%!' in English) and, while I avoid using it in front of parents/teachers, it's pretty much acceptable. Now, if you were to replace 'it' with anything else (which is something that many people do), it would become a very heavy curseword again.

When you think about it, it's weird.

(I don't swear much - in fact, I swear much less than most people I know. But 'f#$% it' is something I do say. Always with 'it', though.)

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

I think we had the same mother.

As well on my mom's list. callling anyone 'Stupid'.

Re the meaning of the F word - read Lady Chatterly's Lover when a teen and that pretty much shaped my perceptioin of the word. Oddly, it's only since the words' overuse in the last decade have I come also to see it as a violent word.

Back to my orginal query at the start: my author was using it satirically - her little riff made the point about the word.

As for the S -word I've always thought the only people who could find pleasure in the word were rubber-gloved CSI guys scouring a crime scene.

c

ive heard two theories of the F word's origen
1. Fornication Under Consent of the King (F.#.*.K)
the initials were posted above the first legal brothels in england ... but i cant remember which king legallised prostitution as long as it was "controlled" in a brothel

2. the other is from the saxon part of our ANGLO-SAXON heriitage. originally it meant something similar...

I am not sure how you wouldd phrase the word in a satirical way... perhaps even the most sheltered 13yr olds have heard the word at least once, so by alluding to it in a similar way as in F@#$% etc. could be enough

This, I believe, has been debunked in recent years as popular myth.

The word definitely has Anglo-Saxon origins, but beyond that, I have no clue.

LabRat

yeah well these were just two theories... i never said either were 100% accurate...

i still think the word is use nowdays far more for its shock value, which adds to the superlative nature of the word

There's nothing wrong with that expression, actually. As you probably already know, it's used instead of a different S word sometimes, and at least where I live, usually by elderly women who are more genteel. I was just stating that, while I didn't find it offensive, I would feel like my grandmother if I used that expression.

Sorry for the confusion there

Oxford dictionary lists no clear etymology, but given that the first recorded written instance of it (as a verb) in 1503 was spelled with two "k"s an "i" and a "t", I'd guess it's a myth after all. Then again... the didn't really spell so well back then.

Sara

No, honestly, Capes, I don't know what S word you are referring to. Do you mean that four-letter X-rated S word that has already been discussed here? What other S word could you possibly be talking about? Sweetheart? Stupid? Silly me? Suck, as in "It sucks"? Please enlighten me.

Ann

That's the one.

Thanks for enlightening me, C_A! Wow, what a euphemism. "Oh, sugar" instead of s***. It can't be too frequently used, can it?

Ann

Actually, among (primarily) Southern women of a certain age, it's quite common.

Years ago, I worked with someone who employed sugar all the time for that purpose. Can't say I've heard anyone use it lately in this neck of the woods, but it did used to be fairly common.

Nowadays, I think, profanity has become so much in common useage that most people of my generation would probably just say s*** and not think twice about it. It's become a fairly mild expletive, although not as mild as damn or bugger.

LabRat

sugar is used quite commonly here in aus by at least my mothers generation (40-65 yr olds... she is 48)

those who grew up with the brady bunch (although she never watched)

another expression is:
Sugar, Honey, Iced Tea... an annogram for....
that is said as a way to change course after one finds one-self begining to pronounce S***... in orde to sound not so crass

i guess it works better when said then when written, so i wouldne use it much in a fanfic (perhaps martha or Jonathon would say it... ellen is too prim and propper to mutter any crass laguage and sam is too sophisticated i guess to need superlatives...

Wow. All this just because of one little scene that I wrote. I already knew I couldn't use it and keep the story PG. But I left it in because I suspected my beta readers would enjoy it (and they apparently did).

But Carol is right. It really doesn't work without the 'f' word - and the reason for that is because it really is the most inappropriate word in the English language .

Of course, I end my innappropriate section with these paragraphs (I'll let the boards edit it for me ):

“It’s okay,” Lois said, cutting him off. “It’s just... well, in the future you might want to run words like that past me. I mean, ML can’t even keep this section in the story since it’s rated pg-13. So you’ve got to watch what you say.”

“Oh.... oops. Sorry, everyone. I’m new here and don’t know the rules. I certainly didn’t mean to offend anyone.” He looked back at Lois. “So... what exactly does ‘****’ mean?” he asked.

ML

If you're wondering about the origin of the F word, I found this page quite interesting.

What a Freaking interesting topic<g> Yes Freaking or Frickan is another way of not saying the F word. But I had no idea Bugger was a bad word. We usually use it to say something like "He is a cute little bugger" Not meaning he is a cute little Fu**er. I thought it was more like a bug as in cute as a bug. LOL Holy cow! You learn something new everyday over here<g> Laura

Eh... ML.... Might I ask exactly who is asking Lois to enlighten him as to the meaning of ****?

Ann

LOL, ML!

Yvonne

Sorry, Ann. I made very sure the section didn't say the name of the man. I figured that would give too much away about my latest story .

ML

<sulks>

Well, hurry up and post your story then, hmmm, ML?

Ann

I agree with Laurach- calling a kid a little bugger either means they're squirmy and a tad annoying (won't sit still) but cute, they're imitating a parent or older sib in an adorable way ( "Just look at the little Bugger!" _____said proudly), or are just plain adorable- though I haven't really even heard it used lately.

Bloody isn't even a swear word over here- at least not really. I don't think I've ever really heard it spoken in a conversation- just in a movie or two.
I don't like the F word at all- but you hear it a lot in school- maybe around 8 times a day -(and my friends don't say it- so that's from overheard conversations, like at lunch when people talk too loud to be ignored.) so I've sorta become desensitized- it pretty much has no shock value anymore. I still won't use it though, and don't much like reading it- if I actually realize it's that word and not just a swear word in general- I've read it so much my mind really doesn't notice it- unless it's repeated a lot.

As to the thong/sandals- they're called flipflops here and the thong is what you call the plastic thing that goes between two of your toes- though I believe calling it that over here originated after the actual thong- we even have book thongs now (Bookmarks) named after it

Sh-- really has little impact. It's still a bad word so I don't use it, but people use it like it is a generic mild bad word. Unless someone's suprised, shocked, or in trouble and says oh s--- it's not used too much. It even seems to be phasing out a little here- people tend to use oh F--- instead. It's still pretty common in writing though- in stories I find on the internet- and it passes just fine though editors and moniters for kids to teens stuff.