OK, this topic may have been covered already, and if so, sorry. And I mean this totally and completely as a fun and entertaining exercise, not as an opportunity for anyone to say "My way is better." But I thought it would be a kick to see if we could demonstrate some of the ways that UK English differs from US English.

Now, I'm not talking about different words, such as boot vs. trunk or diapers vs. nappies. More in the way that words are ordered, used, or included/left out.

To start off, I'll list a couple of ones I've noticed.

Got vs. Gotten
UK version: Clark had got his reindeer sweater from his mother, and, as such, he was hurt when Lois laughed out loud.

US Version: Clark had gotten his reindeer sweater from his mother, and, as such, he was hurt when Lois laughed out loud.

Carers vs.Caregivers
UK version: Martha and Jonathan had been Clark's carers ever since they'd found him in Shuster's field, twenty five years ago.

US version: Martha and Jonathan had been Clark's caregivers ever since they'd found him in Shuster's field, twenty five years ago.

I know I'll think of more, but these two came to the top of my head.

Any others? This could be highly educational. Oh, and I'd love to see how other forms of English differ as well (Australian? Canadian?)

Lynn

Lynn when I saw the topic name!

On my way to work so I can come back later with more.

Maths vs Math

UK Verison Oh look, my maths is wrong. (in regards to a calculation)


US Verison Oh look, my math is wrong. (in regards to a calculation)

Sara

Excellent thread, Lynn! I almost started one like this myself after I realised I'd gone a bit OTT with the nitpicking on your HE fdk.

The UK version of that first example sounds rather clunky to my ears, and I suspect we'd be more likely to phrase it like this:

Clark had been given his reindeer sweater by his mother, and, as such, he was hurt when Lois laughed out loud.

UK version: Lex was pissed off when he saw Lois and Clark kissing.

US version: Lex was pissed when he saw Lois and Clark kissing.

(and by the way, to us UK people, 'pissed' actually means drunk )

Yvonne

I found the following on internet:

1. British English uses the present perfect tense more often, as in:

B.E. - She's lost her purse. Can you help her find it?

A.E. - She lost her purse. Can you help her find it?

B.E. - I've just received my mail.

A.E. - I just received my mail.

2. - British English tends to use 'have got' and American English 'have'.

B.E. - Have you got your pencil?

A.E. - Do you have your pencil?

3 - Americans make plurals out of nouns that are uncountable in British English.

B.E. - strands of hair

A.E. - hairs

B.E. - types of food

A.E. - foods

Actually, for all of these examples, I would say that, to an American both the British and American English are considered correct, but it is true that we tend to use the A.E. phrase more often than not.

- Vicki

Actually, I think in most cases, you could use "pissed" *or* "pissed off" in American English.

Another difference I see a lot--I hope I'm using it in the right context here.
UK version: I have done, as in, "Have you done <whatever>? Yes, I have done."
US version: I have, as in, "Have you done <whatever>? Yes, I have."

At least, I think that's the right context. There's definitely somewhere that I tend to see "have done" where I would drop the "done."

Ooops. Kind of feel stupid pointing out a difference and getting it wrong.

Is it more accurate to say:
UK Version: Clark had got angry when Lois laughed at his reindeer sweater.
vs.
US Version: Clark had gotten angry when Lois laughed at his reindeer sweater.

I do often say "pissed off" but I've seen it both ways here in the US.

But that reminds me of one:

Knock(ed) up
UK Version: It was after eleven in the morning, so we felt it was all right to knock her up and ask her to go on our picnic.
vs.
US Version: If you don't engage in safe sex with your girlfriend, you could accidentally knock her up, saddled with a baby before you're twenty.


Lynn

Really? That sounds so strange to my ears!

Another one would be the use of the adjective 'quite'. Not that it is incorrect in American English, it's just not used as frequently.

- Vicki

ROTFL! I went through these posts going, "I'd never use that. Nope, wouldn't use that. Don't ever use that..." in response to most of the UK versions...

...and then belatedly realised that this will probably come as a surprise to just about no one except me.

LabRat

I just thought of another one. Well, actually, I'm not sure if this qualifies or not. It's just that I vividly remember the first time a Brit asked me if I had a Biro. I just stared at him with this blank look on my face, and said, "A what?" He must have repeated it 3 or 4 times before finally saying, "A ball-point pen!" I had no idea what he was talking about!

- Vicki

Fascinating thread! I'm sure that I'll be adding more examples in due course, but I just had to comment on the use of 'quite'. I assume you meant it in the sense that HG Wells uses it? "Yes, quite." That would be seen as archaic in the UK now.

But when we talk of 'quite' as a qualifier, then there's a huge difference. Let's take the sentence I've seen as a comment on fic from time to time:

To my UK-English ears, that sounds like faint praise. The story was okay. It wasn't bad - but not exceptionally good either. If I were marking out of ten, a 'quite good' would get around 5.

I understand that, to an American, 'quite good' actually means 'very good' - am I right? So, to an American, telling someone that their story was quite good is actually high praise.

Okay, a few others:

• UK: We're quits. US: we're even
• UK: She's been taken to hospital; US: She's been taken to the hospital.
• UK: "Can I top up your glass?" US: "Can I top off your glass?"

Oh, and there's momentarily. I used to roll my eyes at the announcements in Disneyworld that the next tram would be along 'momentarily' - did they really mean that it would be there for only a moment? That wouldn't leave enough time for anyone to board!


Oh, and Lynn: what's a smackdown?

Wendy

LOL, Vicki!

Lynn, I struggled a bit to come up with a syntax I thought we *would* use, and I'm still not sure I got it right, so let's just say both of us are wrong. Yup, I think your second example sounds more natural, especially if you include a contraction: "He'd got angry..."

In the UK, 'knock her up' is used in the sense of your US example as well as your UK example. It's one of those multi-purpose phrases.

Sara, I wouldn't say, "I have done," in the example you used. Maybe there's another context you're thinking of.

Interesting about 'pissed'. One of those regional things, maybe.

How about 'present' and 'gift'? I think we all understand that they both mean the same thing, but I've noticed that, in the US, 'gift' appears to be used more often than 'present' whereas the opposite is true over here.

Yvonne

One difference I notice is the word "brilliant". As far as I can tell, UK english would say "That was brilliant" where we would say "That was good (or great)." I associate the word brilliant with being very intelligent.

- Laura

No, actually I meant in sentences like:

You are quite safe, now. OR, your example: Your story is quite good.

Both of those just sound 'British' to me.

I'm trying to think of just when and how I might use the word 'quite'. I can think of two circumstances. One, if you had said your story sucked, I might respond by saying "No, it's quite good, actually." Or, I might use the word 'quite' followed by 'a' or 'an', as in "That's quite an appitite you've got there!"

What do other Americans think about this word? How do you usually use it?

- Vicki

I've definitely seen the 'quite good' phrasing used by Americans, Vicki - in comment folders on these boards, actually. At one point I almost started a thread on the term, because it means such completely different things to those of us brought up on the other side of the Atlantic.

"I quite enjoyed it."

"This is quite good."

"That meal was quite nice."

- to me, all mean that the thing being described was just okay. Somewhat good. Acceptable. But I am aware that North Americans who have described a story part as 'quite good' mean it as a compliment. Go figure! As Bernard Shaw put it, two countries divided by a common language...


Wendy (who wonders how Australians interpret 'quite good' )

One thing I noticed during my brief time as a GE is that UK english involves a lot more commas than US english. I was taught in grade school that, as far as commas go, "when in doubt, leave it out!" UK english allows commas to be used for all sorts of things that look very odd to me. I still have yet to figure out the UK comma rules, actually.

As for "quite good", it's weird. I never think of it as a US phrase. It's sort of a quaint little way to say "very good," and almost has to be said with at least a trace of a british accent to make it work. ("Quaint" and "British" have an oddly large overlap in the US mind, for some reason. There are things that are quaint that are not british, and there are things that are british that are not quaint. In many cases, however, the two go hand in hand.)

I never realized that the UK meaning was so different, and now I don't know what to say. It seems like we have a US meaning/usage, but it's one that anyone in the US will tell you is of UK origin. It's probably a phrase that came over here, had its meaning changed, but somehow retained a british "flavor" in our minds.

As for pissed, it's always been my understanding that it's short for "pissed off." As I once explained to my first GE (Wendy, as it happens), it's amazing the lengths to which americans will go in order to be lazy. Save a few keystrokes and/or syllables? Great! In any case, either phrase can be used to mean the same thing. Actually, come to think, "pissed off" is generally slightly angrier than just "pissed." The "off" is almost a sign of emphasis. If the situation is bad enough to warrent using the entire phrase (with a whole extra word!), then that problably should tell you something.

I don't really agree with this one. ... Oh, now I see what the problem is. In the phrase "strands of hair," "hair" is a collective noun. It's not supposed to be plural. Same with "types of food."

I would say the following:

She brushed her hair. When she was done, she found that there were a few stray hairs left on the brush.

Looking around at the Food Court, he realized that there were many different kinds of food available. He moved around from stand to stand, collecting an assortment, then went to the nearest table, his plate brimming with food. Sitting down, he considered the all the foods on his plate. Where to start?

Momentarily can be used either to mean "in the very near future" or "for a brief time." It depends on context. Basically, it can be "in just a moment" or "for just a moment." Either works, although the former is more common.

A smackdown is a big, very hyped, fight. Probably derived from smacking your cards down on the table. These days, it's used mainly by the "pro" wrestling industry. "Monday Night Smackdown," for example. Also, somewhat rarely,
"a throw-down, smack-down fight."

Okay, that's all I have for now. I've got to get going, anyway.

Paul

What a cool idea for a thread, Lynn! I've always been interested in this topic. (Although, the more I'm able to discriminate between the two, the more I wonder which one to use while writing )

My list: ( )

First of all, the easy one:
Spelling issues:
UK behaviour vs. US behavior, UK theatre vs. US theater UK travelling vs. US traveling and so on.

Queue vs. line:

UK version: "The queue for the roller-coaster was very long."
US version: "The line for the roller-coaster was very long."

The period:

UK Dr vs. US Dr., UK Mr vs. US Mr. etc..

Also, there are some things I have seen and I don't know if they're UK vs. US differences, or it's just wrong phrasing I happened to see. Maybe someone could clarify them.

1) "Who are these flowers for?"
vs.
"For whom are these flowers?" or "These flowers are for whom?"

2) Spelling issues like dreamt/dreamed or learnt/learned.

I'm sure there are others, but I'm probably to sleepy to remember

See ya,
AnnaBtG. (non-native English speaker, please be gentle )

Interesting, Paul.

But if you want a 'quaint', British-sounding way to say 'very good', then 'rather good' would be the one to go for.


And in UK English the only acceptable meaning is 'for just a moment'.

The more I think about it, the more I realise that I actually have to learn a whole new language having moved to North America!


Wendy

I know on IRC we've had the quite good = not bad conversation, but I'll repeat it here.

If someone tells me:
Your story was quite good -> I'm happy! I think that they really liked it. On a 1 to 10 scale, I'm thinking around an 8.

Your story wasn't bad -> I'm disappointed. I think they found a lot that needed to be changed and were trying not to be rude. 3 or 4 out of 10

Your story was rather good -> I'm in the middle. I'd think they were somewhat surprised, that they'd found the story to be better than they'd expected. A 5 out of 10.

Anna, the "Who are these flowers for?" issue...I was always taught never to end a sentence with a preposition, so saying the above would be considered grammatically incorrect. However, in order to fix it, you'd go with your other two options. I think, though, that that old rule has kind of gone out the window, and we USers would probably all agree that we'd more likely say the first because it sounds much more natural.

I thought of another one, although I'm not sure how common it is. The use of the word "mind" to mean "watch" or "look out for." When we were in London bopping around on the Tube, Ken and I would get a giggle out of the announcement "Mind the gap", meaning, of course, to watch out for the gap between the platform and the subway car. I think in the US the announcement would have been something like "Watch your step".

Another one that came up recently was "Inside" versus "Inside of"
UK Version Clark could feel her heart hammering deep inside her chest.
US Version Clark could feel her heart hammering deep inside of her chest.

These are all so interesting.

And Wendy, Paul defined smackdown before I got to it, quite well (in the US sense), I might add.

Lynn

There are just some phrases that my ear perceives as 'British'. I don't know why that is, and I can't even articulate what the rule is. It's just a gut feeling.

Some are more obvious than others. "Not quite" could easily be American. "Quite nice", hmmm, not so much so. "I had quite forgotten", well now that is definitely NOT. Do not ask me why.

- Vicki

edited to remove references to the word 'quaint'

Me again. Yes, I'm feeling talkative today!

I just read Lynn's post and it reminded me of a story my sister told me. She was in London with some friends. They wanted to go across town and, not wanting to take a taxi, they asked where the subway was. A passerby pointed them to the entrance.

Down they went. The looked around, but didn't see any train or tracks or anything. So they kept walking, and the next thing they know, they are at another stairway. Up they go, and they are back on the street. They looked around, thinking, "What on earth was that all about?"

Apparently, in London, the subway is just a little tunnel designed to get pedestrians safely under and across a busy street. You learn something new every day!

- Vicki

On 'quaint', you might like to know that to these Brit ears, at least, it sounds faintly condescending:

"How quaint," said Lois, watching the Morris dancers' display in Metropolis's pedestrianised shopping precinct.

...meaning that dressing in britches, wearing bells and slapping wooden batons together is a rather pathetic activity for grown men <g>.

In fact, being referred to as both quaint and British in the same breath *definitely* feels condescending. No doubt it's not intended that way.

Yvonne

Sorry, I did not mean to sound condescending. I hope I have not offended anyone.

Quaint to me is like a cottage in the woods. Dressing in britches, wearing bells and slapping wooden batons together isn't quaint to me.

Anyway, to avoid further offense, I'm editing my previous post.

- Vicki

Funny, I'm used to hearing that. Maybe it's a Minnesota-ism. *scratches head*

OTOH, I'm fairly certain I haven't heard anyone but my grandmother say "Uff da" seriously, or anyone under 40 say "Ya sure, you betcha," at least without a trace of sarcasm. But most Minnesotans do say pop as opposed to soda.

Hey, Vicki, you didn't offend! I just thought it might be useful for you to know, that's all. It's one of those words that has a different flavour over here to over there.

Yvonne

The one that always cracks me up is the use of Sorted in the UK versus Figured out in American. I always laugh when I read one of our Brit writers compromising with Sorted out

Americans figure out the solution to a problem.
We sort our laundry (into whites and colors..or, in my house, whites and blacks .) And we sort out a mess by cleaning up the room so we can find what we're looking for.

Sherry

I'm not sure what you mean here, Sherry, as the UK expression is 'sorted out'. 'Sorted', on its own, is slang, used most often in and around London, and means 'problem taken care of'. Think New York street language of the kind which might occasionally be mimicked by a wider population, as opposed to standard American English.

Yes, we might say that we sorted out a problem, and we sort out (or clear up ) a mess, or sort our laundry. We don't tend to say 'figured out' all that much; instead, we might say 'worked out' - for example, "I worked out what was wrong with my computer." If I were then to add, "...and I sorted it out," that would mean that I also fixed it.


Wendy

LOL Labby! Have we Americanized you?

I've seen different words in books, like headmaster/headmistress vs principal, lippy vs lipstick (maybe that's just slang), and broomstick vs broom.

Canadian English has parts in it from the UK and other parts from the US, which is why I am never sure what exactly to say about it in UK vs US discussions. Let's just say it's Canadian. <g>

Our spelling, from what I've seen, is all UK. favourite, flavour, colour, honour, metre, centre, theatre. I've never noticed there was a difference in "travelling," but I think the double-L seems more Canadian to me.

I've seen 'pissed' and 'pissed off' used here, and like Paul said, pissed is just a lazy way to say 'pissed off.' I don't, however, find it more emphasizing. I use either all the time.

As for 'quite good,' it has the American meaning to my ears. Rather, though, like Lynn said, has that surprised tone I wouldn't find too complimenting.

Momentarily only means "in a moment" to me. I've never actually even thought about it too much.

About present and gift: Although I am aware of the synonymous meaning, I use present more often. I'd say "Christmas presents" and "birthday presents" as opposed to gifts, and probably in any other context. I would probably use gift only as in talent. "You can draw so well, you have such a gift!" or "You are so gifted!"

We use line and not queue. I use "dreamed" and "learned," but I remember a friend of mine correcting me once and saying I should use "dreamt." I didn't stay and argue because he's one of those people with whom the smallest arguements can last an hour and escalate to idiotic proportions, but I haven't noticed anyone else use those. All my friends use "learned" and "dreamed."

And we say "pop," never soda. Soda here is just gassed water. Soda pop, maaaybe..... but generally just pop.

This is the "Canadian English" part of the thread.

Julie

Sherry, I'm not sure what you mean, either. AFAIK, "sorted out" is also a US expression. "... just have to wait until I get it all sorted out, then..." It means something different than "figured out," though.

"Sorted" means put into proper order, squared away, etc. "Sorted out" means getting everything in its proper place, fixing the stuff that's wrong, etc.

"Figured out" is more of a mental process (although you can mentally sort things out, too). You solve the problems in your head by thinking them through. For external problems, you can figure out a plan so you know exactly how to go about sorting things out.

As for quaint... that one's kind of sticky. No offense was intended, but I realize that it is, in a way, a somewhat condescending attitude. My point was that, even if it isn't right, it is a prevelant attitude, in my experience. I was attempting to represent my understanding of the situation, rather than giving my own judgements on the matter. US culture, in general, tends to find certain aspects of UK (and, in particular, english) culture to be quaint and/or charming. The accent alone, for some reason, sounds charming and often cultured and intellectual (as one comic noted, this is true almost regardless of actual content). Now, as with most such sweeping statements, there are a fair number of holes. Things that don't strike people that way, people who aren't struck that way, etc. I think, though, that it holds true as a sort of rule of thumb.

So, when an american uses, for example, "quite" in the way we've been discussing, a hint of that attitude will be in the back of his or her mind (and probably the minds of the listeners). Kind of like playing at being Wells (rather than a modern englishman... At least, that's my impression. The hint itself is vague enough to be hard to pin down, but I think, in this case, it's more of a Victorian or Elizabethan feel.) to add a little flavor to the statement.

Julie - "pissed" and "pissed off" are pretty much interchangable, but there are cases where the "off" is added for emphasis. Like I said, often it's only a very slight difference. Sometimes, though, it's more obvious, as in "I am pissed off!"

Think that's all I've got for now.

Again, apologies if I have inadvertently offended anyone. None was intended.

Paul

Just about all Ohioans say "pop" rather than "soda". I believe most midwesterners say "pop". I never realized it was weird until a football team from Philladelphia came to play St. Ignatius at the football stadium I work at, and a bunch of people that came through the concession stand made fun of us because the word "pop" was on the price board.

- Laura

got/gotten

We use got, well at least in my circle. Ever since I was little gotten was frowned upon.

carer/caregiver

Always the latter up here.

Math/Maths

My Nana ,who is English, always uses Maths and it always sounded wrong to me, even though I found myself using that word from time to time.

Pissed....

Well I think of pissed as meaning drunk and ticked off. Pissed off to me means ticked off too. Well I'm a bit odd. Canadian but grew up in an English household.

I'd use "She lost her purse." "I just received..."

"Have you got your pencil?"
My Nana would never let me say it that way. She considered it incredibly so far from proper. Do you have your pencil sounds better to me by far. Got sounds so blah to me.

Foods - never for me. Hairs sounds gross to me. I like strand of hair.


I wouldn't say it either way.
Clark got angry - I'd say. I never use gotten. That just sounds wrong to me. LOL.

Knocked up/knock her up - all about babies and chicks to me.

Biro - I have not heard that since I was 8 or something! I heard it a few times when I went over the pond and my Nana and Gingin used it, but I guess they dropped it b/c of the blank stares they received!!!!!


I find myself using more of the UK slang/version of stuff when I'm in public and CDN at home! LOL.

I am confused with myself now. I saw that a lot. Now I don't even know what I mean b/c I just realized that my meaning changes! ACK. To me I guess it depends on the inflection I project! I'd lean towards the American usage I guess. Quite does sounds very British to me!


Totally interchangeable to me for the second one. The first well...I'd understand if my family said the first, as I've heard many times but out of my mouth I'd say we're even!

Momentarily - I always translated that as meaning soon.

I was taught that they mean different things, but I find I used them interchangeably.

Brillant - I use it for smart and that was cool.
Though, for both instances, I cannot say that word with my CDN 'accent'. I say it with an English one. HA! Some words I find I cannot say 'normally'. I'd such an oddball.

I agree.

I was taugh all the comma uages. Do I remember them? No. I only remember "use them! They're free!"



UK is used up here in these circumstances. I think here we like to try and be different from Americans as much as possbible and well you all know we CDNs where closer to the UK gang for a longer time than the US. I never get ??? for most of the usage I use like the line/queue stuff.

Me and others here - Dr.

I remember when I was 9/10 when I went over and boy did I have trouble understanding my cousin (my mum's first cousin - same age) who is from Nottingham. Ugh, I didn't have trouble with the others, but her! It was . When she came over here when I was 18 boy did I realize how much of the slang I was clueless with.



Cool Places:
UK-US dictionary!
Cornerstone\'s CDN English Page

The whole million/billion thing sends my head whrilling.

Grammar! Ugh. I could never get it right. Here is just a site.

I like the first paragraph here.
Old discussions:
one

Now if where just talking about slang or language differences I always though this one was hillarious:

BELL n. 1. Telephone call, as in, "Give us a BELL when you get there." TINKLE may also be used, as in, "Give us a TINKLE".
From - http://www.hps.com/~tpg/ukdict/index.php?file=ukdict-2

Tinkle to me means pee! To me "give me a ring when you get home" is so Nanaish/UK. "give me a call" is so CDN and American.

My friend Laura hates using .... favour. She likes favor and so on b/c it is faster to write.
She just goes with what is easier and what comes to her head first. Or how she thinks it should be spelled. Even if it is wrong.

French has issues as well. Sorry if I use the wrong words. People from France poke fun at those who speak Frech who are from Quebec. Quebecers make fun of those who speak French from the rest of Canada. It\'s all very different!!

I have such a difficult time trying to learn 'our' French.

A few that have popped up in recent fic:

"rang off" vs "hung up"

"Call" in the US means on the phone. In the UK, does it still mean physically drop by for a visit? Or is that just "call on"? Here, "call on" can mean visit, but is very rarely used that way. More commonly, it's used in the sense of summoning. "I'll have to call on my ability to..."

"Constraint." I've only ever heard this in the sense of a limitation. Webster's does list a secondary emotional definition, but it's not one I can recall having encountered anywhere but R&R. Anyone want to weigh in on this one? Is it a US/UK thing, is it just me, or is it just Mere? (I think that covers all the options...)

A couple unresolved questions I had from SoMH part 4...

"the only true way to appreciate nature's spectaculars was from inside"

In the US, a "spectacular" is a big show, a spectacale. As in "Epic Stunt Spectacular!"

This is not a sense of the word I can recall having seen, and I'm not quite sure what word I would use for it. "Glories," perhaps, or "wonders." Better yet, "the wonders of nature." "Nature's spectaculars" tells me that nature is putting on huge blockbuster shows, very likely with an admission charge, and almost certainly with some form of fireworks.

"And way, way too close to her partner's throat than she liked."

In the US, we'd say "Way, way too close for comfort," "Far closer than she liked," or just "Way too close." We would not say "Way closer than she liked" (unless we were, say, Jimmy), nor would we say "too close than she liked."

Paul

P.S. Roo -- commas may be free for you, but I recycle mine. I keep a Bin of Used Commas here on my desk. Whenever I have to take one out, it goes *plink* into the bin, for later reuse. In a pinch, I can even clip the tails and make periods, colons, or semi-colons.

, Paul!

I used to keep my Used Commas in my bin, but there aren't any in there anymore-- they keep disappearing, like my paper clips and pens. So now I use it for Ellipses... I have more of them, anyway.

~Toc (who came in late on this conversation because she spent the WHOLE day updating her Girl Scout website)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> "I quite enjoyed it."

- to me, all mean that the thing being described was just okay. Somewhat good. Acceptable. But I am aware that North Americans who have described a story part as 'quite good' mean it as a compliment. Go figure! If I said, "Wow! That was quite good," well...that would mean I'd thought about it and while it may be good, it just didn't move me all that much.

I noticed once or twice that someone (think it was Wendy ) said "on second thoughts." I wondered if maybe it was a typo at the time, but now I'm not so sure. Here in the US, we say "on second thought."

A few I learned and was quite amused with (okay...in *that* case, "quite" is a good thing ) when I met a British friend:

UK: jelly
US: jello (you know the jiggly gelatin )

UK: swimming costume
US: bathing suit

(you know...for some reason, though it makes me snicker, the UK version sounds like a more intelligent description...cause, come on, who really wears their bathing suit to take a bath? :rolleyes: )

Loving this thread, Lynn...and I was when I saw that there were 30 more posts by the time I got home! <g>

Sara (who is really *quite* sleep deprived and *should* go to bed...yeah, that'll happen! )

Can't seem to keep away from this thread. <g>

Okay, SuperRoo, you've piqued my interest. How does 'gift' differ from 'present' (excluding the use of 'gift' in the sense that someone has a talent)?

Paul, I don't personally use 'call' in the sense of visiting someone. I might 'drop by' my friend's house on my way home, or I'll 'go round to' my sister's for tea.

Toc, they mean the same thing: a school which isn't funded by the state. Mind you, I suppose it's perhaps only the older private schools like Eton and Rugby which are also referred to as public schools. We'd have never called our local private schools in Aberdeen public schools.

[quote]In the UK, you can have a drug store[quote]
All such shops, whether or not they have a pharmacy inside, are generally called chemists in the UK. No idea why. <g> Edit: Just remembered - if you want to fill a prescription in the UK, you'd look for the nearest 'dispensing chemist' and once inside, you'd head for the 'dispensary'. Who knows - this might actually be useful information, if you ever fall ill whilst holidaying in the UK. <g>

Yvonne

Boy, if you're not fast on the uptake, you end up way down in the thread!

Wendy, actually, I was not aware that "sorted" by itself was idiomatic. And that's the one that always amuses me. Paul, we aren't in disagreement. But I don't consider "sorted out" and "figured out" synonymous. And I read many times the use of "sorted out" where I would think "figured out".

Sherry

I think the most surprising thing this thread has shown me is how many phrases Americans think are commonly used today in the UK, but which - for me at least - are very old-fashioned and haven't been used for decades.

Call on is a good example. It could just be my neck of the woods, of course <G>, and other regions of the UK may vary. Language varies throughout the UK as much as it does through the various US states.

But for me - I think using call on in Paul's context was last heard in the '50's, wasn't it? It's more likely you'll hear someone say, "I visited Carol last week." or "Popped in to see John the other day."

I thought I'd dealt with the 'unresolved questions' you mention from SOMH, Paul. Apologies if I somehow missed that back there in the fdk folders. Minor UK/US variations in perception/vocabularly aside, I'm of the opinion that the meaning of both examples should be clear from the context in which they are used. So I don't anticipate there being enough reader confusion to warrant my changing anything with them.

LabRat

I, on the other hand, was initially taught not to put a preposition right before or after who/what/where etc. and put it in the end of the sentence instead. But when I grew older and my English began depending too much on what I was seeing/hearing/reading etc., I began using the other forms I suggested, as well. They sounded just as good I used to think the English I had been taught in school or by my father (who had been teaching me for a year, before I began English classes at school) were UK English, but I'm not so sure anymore.

I just remembered the realize/realise issue. Not sure if I remember it correctly, but I think the original UK spelling is with z, but, whereas it survived in the US, now the UK uses the s spelling.

Also, talking about expressions: I have an aunt (well, she's not really an aunt, but that's not our point) who's Greek but has been living for decades in the US, Philadelphia to be exact, visited us this year and we talked a lot in English. At some point, she used the phrase "I wouldn't let him get the better of (or off?) me" (=I wouldn't let him win) and said it was a purely American expression.

And, now that I mention of/off, maybe there's a UK vs. US usage there too?

a) I want to get this off my chest
b) I want to get this off of my chest

I remember asking about this on IRC, and Wendy telling me "off of my chest? Ick!" or something to that effect I'm pretty sure I've seen b) used, but then, people do make mistakes when they speak/write. (Although I'd bet that it's much more difficult to make a mistake in English than it is in Greek )

Thanks for the answers, everyone! I'm sure this thread has a long way to go yet.

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

Anna,

At some point in time, I was also taught the rule about not putting prepositions at the end of sentences. But rules are made to be broken, right? For whom are these flowers? sounds odd and stilted. Who are these flowers for? sounds natural and 'right', even though it is technically 'wrong'.

Funny you should bring up realise/realize, because just yesterday I was reading a story with that word in it (sorry, I can't remember which one), and the way it was spelled just looked funny to me. But, since I am a notoriously poor speller, I didn't think anything of it. I didn't realize that this was another UK/US thing.

The expression your aunt used was to "get the better of someone". I didn't know that this was a uniquely American expression.

Finally, I've only ever heard "off my chest", never "off of my chest".

- Vicki

PS - As long as I'm here, can anyone explain what a solicitor is? Is it just another word for lawyer, or is there a difference between the two?

PPS - What I just wrote brings something else to mind. I said "a uniquely". Would UK English use "an uniquely" or no? I know my KJV Bible says things like "an unicorn" but I don't know if that is an archaic usage or not.

Wow, this thread wasn't here when I looked yesterday! A lot of interesting discussions.

As far as quaint goes, whether it's a good thing or not, I think it all depends on the tone of voice. For instance, a tourist in Holland (Michigan) might see some clog dancers and exclaim "How quaint!" in glee and interest. Conversely, Lois might be stranded somewhere, and see an old-style phone without a dial (where you press the handle a few times to get the operator) and mutter "How quaint" in disgust. However, "quite" and "quaint" together keeps bringing to mind an episode of Tiny Toons, when Babs and Buster were saying in snooty voices, "How quaint. Quite. Quite quaint" or something along those lines.

"Clark got angry" vs "Clark had got/gotten angry" -- The other day on IRC we had a discussion on past tense, and past perfect tense. The first phrase would be used in the past tense, as in most of the stories here. The second phrase would be used when relating something in the story that had happened previously, as in a memory. The rest is up to US/UK differences.

"For whom" is grammatically correct, but not socially correct. If you say "whom" in a normal conversation, at least in the US, people will look at you oddly. This can go with eether/ayther when pronouncing either, also. I've trained myself to say ayther instead of eether because I thought it sounded better, and my boss has ragged me about it a few times.

I've heard solicitor to mean lawyer, but that was usually only in UK terms. To me, a solicitor is annoying people who try to sell you stuff. "Who was that at the door?" "Gah, just another stupid solicitor." Though, even then, I think I'd use salesman, but both will work.

I think I've read so many US, UK, and older stories, that my mind tends to translate idioms on the fly. Either that, or my brain isn't picking up all the words, and just going by context. It's only when it's really different that I get thrown.

Here's what the American Heritage Dictionary has to say about "momentarily":
I can think of tons of vocabulary differences between US and UK English - as it happens, I'm busy doing a US-to-UK translation of a book right now - but the word order/inclusion things are harder to remember. I know adverbs are occasionally placed differently, for instance, but I can't think of an example. (I blame staying up till 4:30... not age, nope.)

British English also seems to be more scrupulous about hyphenating phrases which are used as adjectives. For example, "user-defined data" rather than "user defined data".

Cool topic, Lynn!

Mere

Edited to add (didn't notice the second page till now!): "get the better of" is perfectly good UK English. And Karen - "ay-ther"? I've never heard that. I say "eye-ther", and commonly hear "ee-ther".

It's complicated, Vicki. <G> But, short summary version - originally, lawyers in the UK were separated into two distinct professions - barristers and solicitors. This was the result of an agreement made centuries back, which divided the work either was entitled to do. Solicitors, for example, did most of the paperwork, allowing barristers to concentrate more on court work.

These days, lawyer is less likely to be used. Most legal firms call themselves solicitors, and there's been a raft of legislation, proposals, accomodations over the centuries aimed at merging the two branches into one. It hasn't quite happened yet, but lawyer as a term is becoming more and more colloquial as time passes. Most members of the general public will talk about "Seeing my lawyer" or "Getting a lawyer". But they mean solicitor and the professionals generally don't call themselves lawyers at all for day to day purposes, although they won't insist no one else does and there are still the odd formal and professional occasions where the term is appropriate. <g>

Edit - after a quick search of the net, I came up with this . It's a bit longwinded, but if you're looking for more detail, you can't fault it for containing that. <G>

LabRat

Vicki, the rule for a/an, in UK as in US English, is pronunciation. If you say "you-neekly", then it's preceded by "a"; if anyone says "oo-neekly" then they should use "an".

By the same token, only people who say "'istorical" (and some educated speakers do) ought to talk about "an historical fact".

Going back to prepositions at the ends of sentences - that's one of those "rules" that was made up by the crazy Latin-loving Victorians with nothing better to do. People have always, before and since, separated prepositions from their objects. But, as a rule of thumb, either say "by whom" or "who... by" - using the formal "whom" with the less formal trailing preposition will get you funny looks anywhere in the English-speaking world.

The idea of a solicitor coming to the door (to force you to write your will, or what?) still tickles me pink.

Mere

I could say a lot here since one part of a lecture that I gave to my students was about regional differences in language and how they come about (pronounced a-boot) here in Canada but I'd like to spend my time addressing the "lawyer" issue.

My husband was called to the bar many, many years ago and he had to say two oaths--one as a barrister and the other as a solicitor. Yet, when asked what he does for a living, he says that he's a lawyer. My cousin in New York,on the other hand, when asked, says he's an attorney.

My husband's letter head identifies him as a Barrister and Solicitor. My cousin's identifies him as an Attorney-at-law.

As far as the "who/whom" issue is concerned, I'd like to say that what has happened is that the grammatically correct has been overshadowed by what sounds better. This isn't regional. I think it has more to do with the difference between writing and speaking, and in writing the purpose of the particular piece.

And when I go to the theatre, I favour good behaviour from the audience members. :rolleyes:

gerry (who's going back to lurking)

I just found a good one - it surprised me, actually. US English "4 feet x 8 feet" versus UK English "4 foot x 8 foot".

Mere

I am not religious, but I found this:

It was from someone's sermon. Like you said below so I won't go into that difference any more.
Gift is from middle English, from Old Norse. Related to ghabh from Indo-European Roots. Ghabh means to give or to recieve. Yet another text reference is to grab or to take! Also, suffixed form ghebh ti means something given or received. Gift, from Old Norse gipt, gift, a gift, from Germanic giftiz. Cool.

Present is from middle English presenten and from Old French presenter and from Latin presentre, to show, from praesns, praesent- present participle of praeesse, to be in front of. Now that's a mouth full.

From - http://westegg.com/etymology/

I just thought that was neat.

Gift [...] a general English term for a present or thing bestowed [...]
Present Also another substantive meaning a gift, and a verb meaning to bring into the presence of, to offer, to deliver. [...] The sense of gift is due to the 0. Fr. phrase mettre en present a quelquun, to bring something into the presence of a person, to offer, give.

With that said, I honestly don't know what that teacher meant, use gift for this and present for that. I wish I could remember. I looked it up in some texts and on-line, but alas I have come up empty handed!

Though gift, of couse, sounds better in some circumstances and present for others. A gift, to me, sounds more formal and present more cutsie.

I guess you go with your preference! Man, now I babbeled and have a headache. Where's my Tim Horton's ice cap (I just learned to like 'em yesterday.)

Whilst - My family used it and my Mum did use it in her essays while attending the same university as me at the same time. Yet, I had marks taken off for using it and she did not!

The phrase 'compare and contrast'. I find people use that here. To me from my UK orgins find that redundant!!! You only need the word compare. Comparing two things is to note their similarities and their differences - is it not? I get blank stares when I bring that up. Please tell me if I am wrong!

Also, another thing that always gets to me. I looked it up so I don't have to get a headache.

I find here they use it interchangeably. But over yonder they don't. Unless the group, where I have used that word is .

I found this for the whole got/gotten discussion:
This may not be entirly related, but it does come up in my mind when we are taking about words usage differences.
That has always poked at my brain. I am an American, if you go with North American. But I cringe b/c I know that means, for many, that you are from the US. And I am not, I am Canadian and North American. No offence, but up here we try really hard to seperate ourselves from the 'Americans' below us.

Oh my goodness. I am doing it again. Babbeling and of course devieating into antoher tangent!!!! I am so posting this and running away, errors and all. I am just talking too much.

This whole lawyer/solicitor thing is interesting.

First, I'm LOL over Mere's comment:
That is a very funny visual. Here, the word solicitor firmly calls to mind for me an unwanted sales person. So often stores and homes will put stickers on their doors stating "No soliciters allowed."

As for lawyer versus attorney, this might just be me, but for some reason lawyer sounds...smarmier than attorney. My brother is an attorney, and I usually state it that way - My brother is an attorney - because to say that he's a lawyer always invites images of ambulance-chasing sleaze bags. For some completely illogical and inexplicable reason, IMO attorney sounds less so. I know, silly.

I do like the word "barrister" but because it is so close to the word "bannister" I always do a double take when I see it. Your brother is a bannister? Ohhh...a barrister! LOL!

This is a wonderful conversation. Thanks to all of you for picking it up and running with it...

Lynn

That is true. There really is no other word. North American does not refer specifically to a citizen of the United States of America, but rather a resident of the continent of North America (thus, including Canadians and Mexicans).

Here in Puerto Rico, people call Americans "estadounidenses", the closest thing in English being "United Staters". I don't know why, but I hate being called that. I always tell people that they might as well call the citizens of the United States of Mexico "United Staters", too. Or citizens of the Republic of Haiti "Republicans"! But, realistically, I guess I can understand the use of the term, given we often abreviate our country's name from The United States of America to simply The United States.

Anyway, the name for our country (and its citizens) was decided upon back when the United States of America was the *only* country in the Americas, so, in a way, it is a totally reasonable name. I guess when our forefathers decided on the name they weren't anticipating all the future countries to be formed on the American continents.

- Vicki

Hey, maybe you and we should rename our countries to something less generic. <g> I mean, the United Kingdom is just about as meaningless these days as the United States of America - more meaningless, in fact, because we don't even have a country name anywhere in there. Yes, we're also Britain, which is better, but someone will shortly tell me why the UK and Britain aren't actually the same thing .

Any suggestions for new country names? The Islands To The Left Of Continental Europe? ('Tittloce' for short - pronounced tit-lo-chay, of course <g>)

Yvonne

Oh, I dunno. Kind of happy with Scotland. That's an idea. Why don't we just name the whole island, Scotland. <g> Oh, and that bit off the coast, too.

LabRat

ROFL, Rat!


Wendy

Just de-lurking (new job, fun but no free time, sorry ) to stick my oars in...

First, quaint. I grew up in Stratford-upon-Avon. Yes, that's right, half-timbered houses, roses round the door, cream teas and china cups. I don't like quaint. Particularly first thing on a Monday morning, when I'm in my school uniform. It's not quaint, it's cold, made of very nasty man-made fibres, which generate more static electricity than a small nuclear plant, and my skirt rides up as I walk. Yes, ok, the town looks lovely, it's old, and it has a fantastic theatre. But you try pushing past the hordes (none of whom are talking with local accents) to catch your bus, knowing that 'I was almost assulted by a French school teacher who thought I was one of her pupils trying to escape a head count' is not a valid excuse for being late... It's not quaint.

Sorry, I regressed a little there.

Second, public vs private schools... the difference over here is, I think, that originally way back when education wasn't compulsary, public schools where ones that anyone could go to (although you might have to pay) and private ones were restricted entry. Something like that anyway. State schools are our equivalent of US public schools.

Third, if I understand it right, you are saying that when a US film sticks in a British character and they say 'quite good' to praise something, that's taken to mean that they really liked it? From my perspective, the joke was that we Brits are uptight and never really truely express our emotions and the best praise we can give to something is 'quite good' meaning ok. Wow, amazing how your perspective can shift.

Fourth, I've just edited this post because Wendy explained it a lot clearer and shorter than I did! But just to add a little fact for today, they only came up with the name Britain for the island after unification with Scotland. Up until then no one had needed to call it anything.

Helga

You guys are loads of fun!

Roo From The Great White North. That's enuf for me.

Personally, I have a hard time getting used to saying "Great Britain" or "United Kingdom". Over here, we simply use "Anglia" (=England) in our everyday conversations. The other names are for more formal use.

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

Yvonne

Used to be sterotypically CDN - Ginned up instead of pissed. It is more of a Prairie thing.

CDN - go on a holiday AMR - go on a vacation.
hydro - electricity
hoser - idiot
grad - prom
Molson muscle - beer belly
runners - tennis shoes/sneakers
write an exam - take an exam

Question: In the U.K. does 'quite' always mean only a little bit, or only when you use it in the phrase 'quite good'? For example, I read a fanfic awhile ago where Clark told Lois she was 'quite safe'. I understood that to mean 'very safe' or 'completely safe', but that was before I read all this about 'quite good' meaning only so-so. So, did Clark mean Lois was 'relatively safe' or what?

- Vicki

Argh!!! There is England, there is Scotland, there is Northern Ireland, and there is Wales. England is neither Britain nor the UK. It is England, plain and simple.

Sorry, Anna! Your statement was like a red rag to a bull and I'm sure I just over-reacted terribly, but it's a sensitive issue with those of us who aren't English.

Yvonne

Oh, wow! You go to sleep for the day, wake up, and find a whole extra page to the thread! Impressive.

Anyway, I don't have much to add this time, but I wanted to address Labby's post at the top of this thread.

I'm sorry I didn't express myself more clearly, Lab. It's a case of poor word choice on my part, I guess. What I meant by "unresolved" is that I'm still not entirely certain that it's a US/UK difference. So, I was asking here what people thought of them.

As you say, the meanings are clear in context. I didn't mean to imply that they needed changing. I copied them here because they were recent examples with context of (aparantly) UK phrases that seemed odd to my US reader's eyes.

Sorry for the confusion and the poor phrasing.

Paul

No problem, Paul! No, I didn't think you were implying they needed changing - was just saying I didn't think they did. <g>

And certainly no need to apologise. I see what you mean now by unresolved. I'm not sure the first one 'nature's spectaculars' is so much a UK/US difference as a US/LabRat difference. It was just the way it came out on the page at the time. It's not a phrase that I've particularly heard being banded around or that even I use. Nature's splendors, maybe? That might be more commonly UK.

The second one might be more Scottish or Glaswegian phrasing than UK per se. It is a common way to phrase it, but I can only speak for my own neck of the woods. Whether it's phrased that way in England or Wales, or parts of either and not in others...is anyone's guess really.


LabRat

Vicki said
And Mere said
I know it's already been explained, but I wanted to add that I'm pretty sure that solicitor has rarely ever been used in the US to denote a lawyer/attorney. Over here, it pretty much means "unwanted salesman." And Lynn said that people put signs up that say "no solicitors"-- that's also true of businesses and the entrances to subdivisions. Nobody wants someone going door to door "soliciting" business.

(... Now that I think about it, based on Lynn's description of "lawyer", I guess they chase ambulances to solicit business.) I, too, have always thought that "attorney" sounds better. About the only place I ever see the word "barrister" outside of the UK is when we refer to "barrister bookcases"-- which, of course, are those glass-fronted bookcases attorneys use!

Here's one that's totally incorrect, but pretty common over here-- adults and children use it--
Instead of "another whole" something or other, lots of people split the word "another" and say "a whole nother" which always cracks me up. I bet that's not said in the UK?

And you guys have been saying that you might "go round to" someone's house, or that there are roses "round the door"-- we'd say "around the door" and "go around to" (althought that latter isn't used much here, I think). I hear "go round" more as a description of another "round" of whatever-- a fight, another try at something: lets have another "go round".

~Toc

Vicki, "quite" is a thoroughly ambiguous word. Over here it either means "completely" (quite right, quite safe, quite sure, quite splendid) or "somewhat" (quite nice, quite soon).

The adjective usually determines which meaning it has, but occasionally it depends on intonation and/or context. "Well... I was quite pleased with his results overall, but I think he should have done better in Maths" vs. "You thought it was horrible? Actually, I was quite pleased with it!"

I gather the US meaning is normally "very" - fairly close to our "completely".

Mere

Got it! Thanks, Mere.

Another question, this time for Labrat. Trying not to give too much away incase anyone reading this hasn't read your latest story (which I doubt but you never know):

I loved what Lois wrote, but I was a bit surprised to see the middle letter. I would have expected a +. So, was this a UK thing? A 'your neck of the woods' thing? Something you invented? OR conversly, you Americans out there, have you all seen this before and it's just me who hasn't?

- Vicki

Vicki - I know exactly what you are saying. If I had been Lois, I would have used a "+" instead of an "L". At the time I was reading this, it never occurred to me that there might be a US/UK thing going on. I just figured Lab wrote it that way because...just because <g>. But now that you mention it, Lab, any special reason or is that just the way it came out?

On the present/gift thing...after thinking about it, I realized that I tend to use "present" when speaking about a specific event/holiday. So I'd say "Christmas present" or "birthday present". I'd use "gift" when not attached to an event. So for example, I'd say/write the following:
"How did your friend like her birthday present?"
"I need to buy a gift for my friend's birthday."

I'm going to ask this to clear up my complete ignorance. Do I have this right? Correct me where I've made mistakes:

Scotland plus Wales plus England plus Northern Ireland make up the entity of the United Kingdom.

Scotland plus Wales plus England make up the entity of Britian. (??) And is Great Britain synonomous with Britian?

It is Ok to call someone from Scotland "Scottish" or "from the UK" but definitely wrong to call someone from Scotland "English". (A little side note here: my mother-in-law, who has Scottish ancestors, calls people from Scotland "scotch" and it nearly makes me purple from frustration. I have to bite my tongue to keep from screaming at her "scotch is a drink, not a person!!")

It is OK to call someone from England "English" or "from the UK".

As for the United States, if someone asks me where I'm from, I say the US. For some reason, "America" seems antiquated, like something from the Revolutionary War age. But even so, I'm pretty darn sure the official name of my country is The United States of America.

I know this isn't a grammar thing, but I'd love to have the UK folks explain to me the "shire" system. For example, is Devonshire a county? A region? A township?

This is so interesting!!!

Lynn

Re. the:

thing, the way I understood it (I think from a brief description in the story before we actually saw what Lois had written) is that Lois actually drew a heart. And, since hearts aren't characters which can be presented in standard ASCII, Rat just used L. Now, I may be completely wrong, but... well, Rat can correct me.

Lynn asked:
A shire is a county. Britain (and Ireland) is divided up into counties, which are units of local government and also regional identity. They're larger, I believe, than US counties. A shire/county will have its own elected councillors, who set local taxes and organise local services, including police, fire service, ambulance service, schools, refuse collection, social services, child protection, road maintenance... you name it. All within a national framework of minimum standards. And then towns within each county have their own town councils, to which there is more devolution of services and local taxation.

(I am generalising here quite a bit; for example, I'm ignoring unitary authorities, in case any UKer points that out! ).

Some counties are called shires: Yorkshire, Devonshire, Leicestershire, Buckinghamshire Staffordshire (where I used to work), Shropshire, Cheshire (where I used to live), and others. And others are called counties; some use 'county' in the name - eg Co. Durham - and some don't - eg Kent, Middlesex, Northumberland.

I'm sure that there is a historical explanation for the use of 'shire' rather than 'county', and I'm equally sure that someone will post it - but here's the administrative explanation anyway.

As for regional identity, it's very strong in some areas. You ask a Yorkshireman where he's from, and he will say Yorkshire before he will say England or Britain.

Oh, and you mention 'township', Lynn - before I moved to Canada I had never heard of 'township' outside places like poor parts of South Africa, and so my mental image of a township was of a shanty town, with makeshift housing and no amenities. But in the US and Canada there are townships everywhere. What is a 'township' in this part of the world? And why a township rather than a village or suburb or rural area?


Wendy

As a Canadian, I'm expected to spell with the UK spelling and use the US grammer (at least I think I am). But... Hey, wait a minute! What am I doing replying to a thread about spelling and grammer? I know nothing about either (isn't that why we have Beta readers? )

On the lawyer/attorney/barrister/solicitor issue, I would use those terms in the same way as Gerry's husband. If asked what I do for a living, I'd say I'm a lawyer (with my head bent and muttering the word in shame of course ). My letter head identifies me as a Barrister and Solicitor, although most of my work at the moment is barrister's work (court work). I would never say that I'm an Attorney. The only place I think of that I've heard it in Canada is 'Crown Attorney' which is the equivalent of the US 'District Attorney'

ML

P.S. - Wendy, I live in the Township of Ware. And I resent your implication that I live in an outback, undeveloped... Oh, wait. I do live in an outback, undeveloped region of the country. Well, okay then. Forget I said anything

http://www.wordorigins.org/histeng.htm

So England doesn't = Anglia EXACTLY but is an origin. It was once a part. So I can understand people's frustrations with the use of Anglia b/c well, it's not 100% of the story!

I have heard of other 'origins' too though.
Some people discuss that here at these boards.
I used to hate it when people use to say "We are going to America!" Ugh. Here we call it The States and hate it when is called America, b/c well... America as we have discussed doesnt' mean the USA per say.

I pictured a heart with LL luvs/loves CK inside. I didn't bat my eyes with the L and not a +. If I would have done it, it would have been loves or a +. I guess L is different to me!

Figure it out and sorted it out - they seem to not be perfectly the same to me. Just thought I'd add a tidbit to that.

I only know the geographical definition of a township b/c I took mapping and the early geographical changes in Canada blah blah blah in school. If my memory serves me right it is not the same as an American township or anyother country's.

A township is more of a mapping procedure. It is not a state or a province, it is more on a human level.

A township is a geographical division within a public land survey system that is defined by a square parcel of land bounded on the east and west by meridians six miles apart and by parallels to the north and south also six miles apart. This 36 square mile unit of land contains 36 sections, each being one square mile.

A township can also be a governmental subdivision, which may vary from the standard size and shape. There doesn't have to be a 'town'
In Canada, there are two basic ways in which land has been put in large scale surveys, the concession-lot system used in Eastern Canada (TWNSP is one form of a subdivision of a county), and the township-range system of Western Canada (exist only for purpose of land division started by the Dominion Land survey and are not administrative units!).

It was a way of dividing up land for the purpose of controlling all the farming and immigration that was occuring. The area where I live now was divided up during the period from 1880 to 1900.

Basically it was a big square divided into little squares and divided up again. Certain ones were allocated for the railway, the government a school and a church.

To me townships are no longer created here. If they are I'm sorry! We use municipalities to divide up areas that are not in the city, but can be populated with more than 100 people. Here we have the city of Winnipeg with muncipalities out side call, for example, Headingly.

You know what. I didn't do such a great job explaining. I'm dead tired. Try here.

Whoops, bad phonetic translation. I was trying for aye, which is also eye, so eye-ther is what I say.

This is something up with which I will not put

PJ
who may have time to actually contribute something to this thread tomorrow... or not...

Really, it's good that you said that. In good ole Alabama, home of the worst education system in the nation, everyone here says 'The Brits this' and 'The Brits that' when they're really only talking about England...so no one's ever actually explained this whole Britain, UK, England etc relationship.


I hear that constantly.

There are really only three things that make me cringe down by the Gulf of Mexico...and that's ain't, y'all, and fixin...as in, I'm fixin' to go to the store, or I'm fixin' to do my paperwork.

JD

Back in the early '70s, the NY State Chamber of Commerce launched a new tourism campaign, and hired a local graphic artist to come up with a catchy logo. Soon, cars all over the state were sporting bumper stickers with the brand new logo on them.

I clearly remember the day my father first saw the new logo. He looked at it for awhile, then asked, "What does iony mean?" We laughed and laughed, then explained the meaning of "I heart NY".

So, Wendy, you're saying you envisioned Lois writing "LL heart CK", and Lynn and I saw her drawing a large heart with "LL L CK" in it. Hmmm.... OK, Labby, not that it makes the least bit of difference as far as the story is concerned, but just out of curiousity, exactly what did Lois write on that window?

- Vicki

The "big island" made up of England, Wales and Scotland is called Great Britain. What's now called Brittany used to be called Less Britain (because it was settled by a bunch of Britons - Brittonic Celts - displaced by the Saxons who invaded England after the Romans left).

The word Britain was, as Helga said, brought back into use to describe the new political entity when England and Scotland were unified under James I, "King of Great Britain". I don't think anybody troubled, before then or since, to find a word to describe the English + Welsh together. :p The word British is variously used to mean from Great Britain (with or without the Isle of Man), from the UK (including Northern Ireland), or from the British Empire (including the colonies). I think the word Britain is also fairly elastic and sometimes means the UK.

And, Yvonne, I did like your Tittloce suggestion. Instead of Brits, we could be called... no, wait...

Back to Lynn, and shires... "shire" (scyre) was an Old English word for an administrative area of land, looked after by a shire-reeve (sheriff). "County" means the same thing but comes from French. The counties which were formed around cities or towns generally took on their names + shire: Oxford/Oxfordshire, York/Yorkshire, Lancaster/Lancashire, and so on. Other counties got a -shire just for the heck of it, and some of those have lost it again - it's just called "Devon" these days.

There's lots of fascinating - well, interesting - ok, amazingly nerdy information at this genealogy site . And there's a cool story here about Warner Brothers and its cohorts trying to assert rights over the word "shire", with a list of UK "shires" on the second page.

Townships in South Africa, by the way, were sub-urban developments for housing the non-white workforce near the cities but not actually living next to white people. They weren't a rural phenomenon at all. MLT, I don't know if that makes you feel better or worse about Wendy's confusion.

Picking up other bits and pieces...
I had the same problem with this as Paul, so it must be a Scottish/Glaswegian thing rather than general British. I'd say "too close for [comfort]", "too close to [bear]" or "[far] closer than she liked."

The solicitor at the door thing - yes, of course I know no one is suggesting itinerant lawyers drumming up custom on doorsteps, that's just the mental image I got when I first saw mention of a doorstep solicitor in a fic. (And I like it, so I'm hanging onto it, ok? It's even funnier if you have a clear picture of the classic English family solicitor, with thinning hair and half-moon spectacles, wearing dusty tweeds and clutching a leather briefcase.)

I think the equivalent sign over here to the US "No solicitors" would be "No vendors" - someone please correct me or add other variants.

Oh, another lovely word-nerdy topic: "a whole nother". I like it, actually, and use it deliberately. If "a napron" and "a norange" can be re-analysed to form "an apron" and "an orange", why can't "an other" become "a nother"? Anyway, the technical term is tmesis and it can also be seen in things like abso-bloody-lutely. (Although the latter's sometimes called an infix because the word doesn't split up completely.)

LOL on "iony", Vicki. Back when those messages became so very popular, and there had just been an outcry over the treatment of fur seals, someone produced a T-shirt with "I [club] baby seals" on it. I only knew one person brave/tasteless enough to wear it, though. And then there was "Nuke the gay baby whales for Satan"... but I digress.

That's probably long enough for one post - have we got to three pages yet?

Mere

You know, I have so much fanfic to catch up with and comment on, but I'm so glued to this thread and learning things I thought I knew! Fascinating....quoth Spock.

Sherry

Calling a Scot English or Scotch (that's a drink, dammit, not a nationality! <G>) are two guaranteed ways to have them coming at you fast with a claymore.

On the L thing. Actually, catching up on the overnight posts, I'll admit I was a little disappointed to see this issue being discussed here as it's a massive spoiler for my story.

Oh, well, at the end of the day, it's only a story and no one did it on purpose, mistakes happen, so...never mind.

Anyway, may as well answer it now <G>:

No, that's the way it's written in the UK. No +. But thanks for that little snippet of info. I've never heard of using a + until it was mentioned here.

Reading on further - okay Wendy surprised me by her reply, I have to say. <G> But all of you got me confused as I thought I'd mentioned in the story it was a heart. So I had to go back and check and realised where you might have been confused. A heart with the legend XX L YY inside it is so familiar to me, that it never occurred to me it wasn't something extremely common to anyone else. If you want a visual image, go to the part seven fdk folder where Lynn very helpfully provided one. Thanks, Lynn! <G>

With Wendy having entirely the wrong idea, I'm now beginning to wonder if XX L YY (XX loves YY) is something more Scottish than generally UK. And now I'm intrigued. Any other non-Scottish UKers who used to chalk this configuration on pavements and walls when they were kids? <G> And if you didn't use L, what did you use? That American +?


LabRat

My apologies, Lab, since I am the one who brought the subject up. Although I did originally try to word it in a way that wouldn't give too much away, I confess that the conversation rapidly turned into, as you say, a major spoiler.

Please accept my apologies.

- Vicki (feeling very contrite at the moment)

I am American, so Lab isn't looking for my answer, but I am going to say this anyway. I only used the + in situations like this --

LL
+
CK
4-ever

-- to make a complete sentance. If I were just to draw LL (something in the middle) CK, I would generally replace the something in the middle with a heart. But I would never do LL + CK without the 4-ever (or some other phrase) after the second set of initials. Could be the math (not maths ) geek in me that thinks the + sign indicates a mathematical expression and needs to have an answer.

Like others, I've never seen the 'L' like LL L CK.

- Laura

Vicki, please don't worry about it.

I'll admit my initial reaction on catching up with the posts was to be disappointed. But as I say it's only a story - there are more important things in the world to get wound up about - and no one deliberately set out to spoil the story to be mean. So I pretty quickly got over it. These things happen. Such is life. And other such zen karma, baby utterances. <G>

LabRat

Rat, in South Africa I always saw L, not +. So it's a good deal broader than Scottish!

Mere

Replying to Rat, who posted this... oh, at least 15 posts ago

No, I've never seen an L used in that way, Rat, which I guess is why I automatically thought that you'd been indicating that Lois wrote:

LL

CK

I've only ever seen it with a heart between the initials; never with an L or a +

Strange...


Wendy (now going back to read the rest of the thread )

I cannot believe that!

The whole 'L' thing. I thought it was just me - out of the loop kinda dealie. It totally doesn't make a difference to me. I like to see differences. The same thing all the time gets boring.

I have another theory. <G> Maybe it's just one more sign I'm getting old. It was certainly when I was in my early twenties, I think, when the whole 'heart = love' thing started up. You know "I heart New York". I wonder now if that craze overtook the old 'XX L YY' equation I'd known throughout my childhood and early teens? And I just wasn't paying attention any more. <g> Because I've never seen that 'XX heart YY' configaration you mention, Wendy, until just now in this thread. I'm sure it's more likely to be me not noticing it had become more trendy than the older version than anything else, if so.


LabRat

Well, I think a lot of FoLCs read the story as soon as it was available (I know I did, and by the looks of the comments folder, I'm not nearly the only one...), so hopefully it won't be *that* much of a spoiler. Still, I applaud your attitude, Rat.

In any case, I've never seen the L, and did find it somewhat odd. I just shrugged it off and blamed it on auto-pilot.

I have seen the heart in the middle, as Wendy posted, but that's rare.

What I see most often (on sidewalks, on TV, on tree trunks, etc) is a heart with

XX
+
YY

Sometimes with a little phrase under it, but more often not. Even when there is a phrase, it's not always directly related. Sometimes, it's just the couple's personal catchphrase (a few words of special significance to them).

I guess, as far as math is concerned, XX + YY = heart. <shrug>

Mostly, though, I think the + is there to indicate that XX goes with YY.

Anyway, while I'm posting, I'll take the opportunity to tell a vaguely related story...

When I was 12, my family went on a trip to England. We toured around the southern part of the island, starting and ending in London.

In London, we quickly discovered that there is a real reason why everyone walks around with a "brolly" (aka "umbrella"). Rain just seems to randomly come and go as it pleases. Never seen anything like it, even in New England ("Don't like the weather? Wait 15 minutes.") and Seattle ("Take a look at the mountain over there. If you can see the top, it's about to rain. If you can't, it's raining.").

To make touring around easier, we decided to get a weekly Tube Pass (in London, it's the Tube or the Underground. In NYC, it's the Subway. In Paris, it's the Metro. In Boston, it's the T... Every city I know has a different name for the same thing). I got a discount on mine because I was a kid. So, they stamped my photo ID "CHILD RATE" in red letters. Unfortunately, the background of the ID was also red, and the last letter didn't fit on the picture. So, I got a picture with "CHILD RAT" stamped on it in bold red letters.

As we were going around, we noticed a lot of language differences, and, at one point, started making a "US/UK Dictionary." It started off with obvious things like "Lorry" and "To Let," but quickly picked up other little oddities that came our way. I wish we still had it, because it'd be perfect for this thread.

Anyway, we had a lot of fun and saw a lot of cool things, but where's the amusement value in reading about that? So, I'm going to skim through things.

A day or so before we were ready to leave London, we rented a car. Dad drove us through Roundabouts (which, all too often, were part of the most direct path) and Circuses (which, sadly, had no elephants. No comment on the clowns. ) and was frequently heard muttering to himself "stayleftstayleftstayleft..." particularly when making turns. It was both amusing and disconcerting.

Leaving London, we headed out into the countryside, where we quickly found that unlike US roads (which are generally left open so that drivers can see all the mountains, valleys, forests, billboards, gas station signs, McDonald's signs, and other roadside splendors which will hopefully be interesting enough to help stave off highway hypnosis), there was very little to see off English roads. This was not because the countryside was any less scenic. Not at all. The problem was that for miles and miles the road was lined with nature's sheep fences (aka "hedges"), so that when we looked out our windows, all we could see was a continuous line of bush with an occasionaly tantalizing glimpse of rolling hills and beautiful pastures. We jotted something about this down in our "dictionary."

From time to time, we noticed things off the side of the road. Once, there was a steep hill, and, next to it, a little sign saying "Runaway Truck Ramp." I'd never heard of such a thing at the time, but Mom explained that sometimes trucks had brake problems when going down hills and that ramps were put in place to help slow them in case of emergency. In the US, however, this is depicted graphically (a yellow sign with a truck going up a hill). While we weres still considering possible implications of the words, we saw the ramp itself. It was a nice ramp, but it ended in what can only be called a small cliff, with no real barricade. I guess, if you were in a runaway truck, you just had to hope.

Later on, we passed a small turnoff. It was a little dirt road leading into what seemed like nothing in particular. Some scrub brush and such (not hedges). Wilderness, more or less. The sign next to the turnoff said "Tourist Bypass." That one cracked us up. I assume it was an analog to the US "Scenic Overlook," but it sounded to us like it was either a way to get around all those pesky tourists or a way to get all those pesky tourists to go off on a wild goose chase into the wilderness.

We had just written that one down and were still chuckling about it when we came to a place where the road had to go over a large hill (or small mountain, depending on your perspective). It wound back and forth, climbing gradually up the side of the hill. As we went higher, the switchbacks became sharper and sharper. Finally, the last one was a real hairpin. There were no lights except the car's headlights, and the only thing telling us that the road was no longer in front of us was a little sign on the edge of the cliff. "Route 3" (I think it was 3, but I'm not certain) with an arrow pointing straight down. We thought about this. As a matter of fact, we knew that Route 3 was straight down at the bottom of the cliff. That's where we'd been 10 minutes previously. Fortunately, Dad realized that the arrow was meant to be an indication of a hairpin turn, and managed to ease the car around it.

At the top of the hill, the road continued, but I noticed a tiny little sign off to the side. "Cat's Eyes Removed." That one had us for a while, as we considered exactly what kind of veterinarian's office we were passing. We didn't get the real answer until we made it to the B&B a few miles down the road. The owner laughed with us, and then explained that that's the UK name for those little road reflectors you see between lanes. (When we got home, I looked it up in the dictionary and found that there was, in fact, an entry explaining exactly this. It's just not a common term at all in the US. Usually, we don't think about them at all, and, when we do, we just call them "road reflectors.")

In the morning, we saw the breakfast menu. After we explained to the waiter that we were strange visitors from another continent who preferred to eat only the whites of the eggs ("co-less-ter-all? "), we had a family discussion about what, exactly, a kipper was. Was it a fish? Was it a way of preparing fish? Was it both? What, exactly, was involved? Was it anything like Kippered Salmon (which we had heard of, but which didn't seem to exist on that side of the Atlantic (aka "The Pond").)? Dad seemed to know, but none of us was certain. Dad was also the only one to even consider having fish for breakfast.

From there, we continued touring, and had a thoroughly enjoyable trip (and continued discussions on the nature of kippers). We even got to take a hovercraft across the channel and back. We got cheap tickets because we chose not to actually step off the craft on French soil. It was a special class of ticket designed for people who wanted to do their shopping in tax-free international waters, but it worked well for us hovercraft-deprived tourists, too. My childish enthusiasm even got us a trip up to see the cockpit and the engines, with a guided tour from the captain himself (who had nothing better to do while waiting for passengers to get on and off).

So, I just thought I'd share. Parts of the story are relevant, right?

Paul, who forgot to mention earlier that recycled commas also make handy apostrophes. If you can get them to stay up there.

P.S. "Is it more acceptable in the UK to start a sentence with a conjunction than it is in the US? Discuss."

heh. I had to comment on the kipper.. that word always brings to mind the phrase "fry me up a kipper, I'll be home for breakfast." I love Red Dwarf. According to dictionary.com..

And thanks, I now have "conjunction junction" in my head. :p

I wish I could remember my English adventures in some detail!

Going way off topic here, but following on from Paul's recounting of road sign mysteries in the UK, my favourite sign (actually *on* the road) in the US has always been:

XING
PED

Took me several days of driving around the States to figure that one out. I finally realised that the X was supposed to represent 'cross', and that 'ped' was short for 'pedestrian', but even then, that only gave me 'crossing pedestrian'.

Huh? Shouldn't it be 'pedestrian crossing', I thought.

And then the other penny dropped: in the US, you're supposed to read the words in the order you drive over them, not as you see them. Yikes, how weird is that, I thought. But then, our way probably seems just as weird to US drivers.

Yvonne

That is probably regional, Yvonne. I've only ever seem PED XING on signs on the side of the road, never on the road itself. The thing I have always found really weird is that on Ambulances, the word is written backwards. I finally figured out that when you look through your car's rearview mirror, you read 'AMBULANCE" and see the mirror image of the backwards word!

- Laura

I did try to sit on my hands, but I couldn't manage it... that's "Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast."



Mere

LOL. I knew I should have searched out the phrase, rather than relying on my poor memory!

Actually, no. I, personally, have always found it weird reading in that order.

Then there's the trick with the circles... I don't know about anywhere else, but around here, if you have three words in a circle, you're supposed to read the middle word last (or is it first...?) The most common case is automatic doors, which come with signs to tell you to watch out because the door might open by itself. So, they take the most important word, caution, and put it in the middle (along the horizontal diameter of a circle). Then they take the explanation and put it on top and bottom (around the circle). Makes sense, sort of, but you end up with:

Automatic
CAUTION
Door

At which point I scratch my head, think about it for a bit, and decide that it's really cool that they've somehow managed to make a door which is automatically cautious in nature.

Of course, come to think, I've had trouble with a lot of other US signs.

Sign:
NO LITTERING
$50 FINE

Me: Oh. Hmm. So, uh, what happens if you do litter?

Sign: DO NOT PASS

Me: Huh? Okay, that's odd. What's that supposed to mean? Clearly, it's okay that we just went zipping past it. I mean, why would they put a permanent sign like that next to a perfectly good road? Better not ask Mom. She'll just give me that look again, and then I'll have to explain that I'm serious, and then she'll laugh... <sigh> Okay, you can figure this out. It's supposed to be clear. There's another one. Look around... Ah-ha! We're coming up to a curve, and the yellow line just went from dashed to solid. There's only one lane in either direction, so... OH!

I guess I have trouble with signs everywhere...

Paul, who had forgotten about alt-Rimmer

I am really enjoying this thread.
But don't worry Wendy, here in Canada we're betwixt and between when it comes to these issues. If you say something's brilliant, everyone will know that you mean that it's terrific, or cool. And my mom always says she's chuffed about things when she's really pleased (she's from out west). And no one (well almost no one ) thinks she's talking strangely.

I have to confess most of the examples you guys have been listing as British sound more natural to my ear, though there are exceptions. And we tend to use UK spellings most of the time, though that is dying out.

A friend of mine had a funny experience in Britain this summer when he asked where he could buy candles cheaply. His colleague suggested a pound stretcher. ( Here we call them Dollar Stores). You can imagine the conversation.
Where ?
At the Pound Stretcher.
Pardon ?
the Pound Stretcher.
Huh ?
etc.

Allie

Ah!

(Reminds me of John Travolta in Pulp Fiction talking about why they don't call a Quarter Pounder by the same name in Paris, France.)

On another note, I was just now re-reading a favorite fanfic of mine and noticed a sentence in which one character is leading another "up primrose lane". I normally say, "lead [someone] down primrose lane" (likewise, "down memory lane", etc.)

Searching on internet, I found both versions used. Is this another UK/US thing? Perhaps there are regional differences even w/in the US? Or is it just a matter of personal preference?

- Vicki

Never heard of being led down primrose lane, Vicki. I've taken a trip down memory lane once or twice, and I've been driven round the bend many times over. Hey, I've even been driven up the wall (no, not like Donald O'Connor from Singing In The Rain).

Yvonne

I'm familiar with "up the primrose path", also "up the garden path". I see Google has many more hits for the "down" version of both those, so perhaps it is a UK/US thing.

Mere

WOW!

‘Pop’ is a noise or the action of breaking something. Also short for grand pop!

Then again we have mobiles not cell phones, put our gear in the boot not the trunk, and our cars run on petrol not gas. When students complete their last year of High School here (Year 12), if they want to continue studying they go to uni not college.

Tricia (Yes, uni is short for university! )

I am coming back here to respond to my esteemed beta reader .

At the concession stand we would say "What kind of drink do you want?" The customer would say, "Pop". Then we'd say, "What kind?" Then they would say the specific kind like Coke/Sprite/Diet. We don't say Grandpop -- we say Grandpa -- oh, and we don't say "mum", we say "mom".

We'd say "twelfth grade" rather than "year twelve", and we'd say "college" rather than "uni".

When my roommate came back from studying in Australia (she was at UNSW), she got into the habit of saying "Let's go to Uni" and it drove the rest of us crazy! We would say "Let's go to class," and she was using the word Uni to describe anything and everything associated with the university. I still think she was making fun of us because we all didn't get to go on Study Abroad and she did . She'd also would say "take away food" rather than "take out" food. And she also started saying, "Do you want to go straight aways" instead of "Do you want to go now?" And don't get me started on the fake Australian accent she started using to irritate us .

- Laura (who would love to visit Australia some day!)

I've always been confused about 'senior' 'junior'... Can someone please explain all that to me.

Here we just say grade 11 or grade 12, but for the last five years they have been changing the organization of grades.

Grade 7, 8 & 9 where considered Junior High when my husband went through (grad '92 I think).

me - 7 & 8 where JH and 9 - 12 where High school (grad '95). Yet while I was at that school they treated the niners differently. We where still called junior highers, but we attended a high school. Our classes where organized differently too, like a JH.

My brother who was suppose to graduate in '02 or '03 said his classmates still referred to 'grade 11' say, but the courses where now being listed as senior 1, 2, 3 or 4. Senior 1 is grade 9 (they says S1). Who knows what they say now. They where changing things so often over a 10 year period I don't know what they ended up with!

Here University is where you get degrees, for example, bachelor of arts.


Sisler High School
Red River College
Univeristy of Manitoba
University of Waterloo
Robertson College I would never go to Robertson. there are too many of these type of places popping up that don't have a solid history. You learn more office stuff and some say it isn't recognizable in other provinces or countries.

Here many say, the best education to get is a university degree and then complement it with good college diplomas or certificates.


College is somewhere you get a diploma or a certification.

You can get diplomas in an continuing education program (professional thing) at universities.

Before Colleges where looked down upon, but now they seem to get you a job faster. There they have trades, can take accounting (though 4 classes of their accounting equal one intro. class at university), child development certificates....

Now you are getting more and more interaction between all the universities and colleges where a lot of stuff is integrated for some programs like environmental geography and education.

Some people say uni here --- RARELY!!! Usually people just abbreviate the place they go to and it's a given that everyone understands.
I can understand that driving you crazy! LOL

When I went to the States for the first time (last winter) I went to North Dakota. I found it hilarious that there where so many lines on the road, sign saying no parking or pay a fee or fine. Also, there on my first visit I only saw American cars. It was soooo weird. I couldn't believe how cheap the food was and how EXPENSIVE the electronics where. So different.

The next time I saw a few non - American cars. I guess it is different there b/c well I guess it is so not 'big cityish'. I went to Minneapolis last summer for the first time. My eyes shot open wide when I saw signs I wasn't accustomed to on the doors to Mall of America. Something about you can't have firearms in there. Guns in Wal-Mart!! And yet they don't sell some CDs b/c there are 'bad' words on them. Whatever.

When I was in England I thought the squiggley lines on the side of the road where weird. I never did find out what they were for. I never did look it up. Also, how ON EARTH do those round-a-bout things work? Here they are just starting to pop up but they are only one laned. When I was in Edmonton a few years ago, my husband and I ended up in a big one. We didn't know that city had them! Luckily it was early on a weekend and there was only one other car there. Otherwise we didn't know what we could and couldn’t do! Hmmm, maybe I'll look it up if I have time.

I couldn't get over the quality of the freeways system in the States. Total thumbs up from here. I cried when I was in Edmonton b/c I was so scared. Cars going 110km/hr down a freeway. I just spent a 16 hr drive non-stop (well except for gas) and we where lost and now we had to put up with traffic. I'd never seen that before. Well I didn't know it could get worse. Well I did, I was just in denial. Luckily in Minneapolis I expected the worst. Man. People where going soooooooo fast. At least we had a car now that could get up to speed really fast. I hate driving. Oh I don't drive by the way.

I know a lot of countries are known for fast freeways, but they are built for that - as many of us know. Here in Cda, we cannot go fast b/c our roads are not engineered for such speeds. We poor. Edmonton has the luxery of having freeways b/c they are a 'have' province. I believe the most well off in Cda.

I heard they are getting rid of the double deckers in London. WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA. Discussion please!

Some of my relatives from England could never pronouce one of my old teachers name - Mr. Sisk. It always came out as Fisk. WHY???????

Why are Krispy Creams (Kreams???) so popular?

In Scotland, how vast are the accents? Many different types?

Where I live, college is synonymous with university. To distinguish between 4-year schools, we use community or technical colleges, which might be what you're thinking of. Rich people tend to look down on them because they don't cost a lot of money. They are the ones that generally offer 2-year Associate's degrees. For certain industries, they can be better than a regular university.

The advantage is that you get out faster with more useful skills, but you don't have to take the liberal arts classes you would at a regular college.

A lot of people get an Associate's degree at a community college, then find a job, and save up for a Bachelor's degree later. Some companies will help pay for college education.

I did it the other way around -- got my Bachelor's in marketing and then took night classes at a technical school because I wanted to learn computer programming.

Just out of curiousity, when were you in Minneapolis? That's my neck of the woods.

Yes, there are a lot of regional accents in Scotland. You'll find Scots from Aberdeen speak differently from those who live in Oban. Those who live in Glasgow have a different accent from those who live in Edinburgh.

In fact, it goes right down to the local area; it's not just restricted to cities and regions. My accent is a strange mix of Glaswegian and something unique to where I live in Cumbernauld (a new town set up in the sixties which was a satellite town of Glasgow and which attracted many Glasgow families out to live in). And curiously enough, for no reason I've been able to fathom, just in the past year I've started gravitating to using Glasgwegian words a lot more than I ever have in my life. I think it's another sign of getting old.


And I once spent some time with a girl from a small village called Denny during a school activities weekend and came back talking with a Denny accent for a while until it faded. So the no of Scottish accents is about as numerous as the Scots who speak them, I guess.

And it's not just accents but dialect and language too which vary from city to city, region to region.

LabRat (doing her bit to make this thread 100 posts

Wow Roo, so many questions!

Roundabouts... depends what country you're in. Rule of thumb anywhere, is figure out which exit you need before you get on it, if it's too the left then go in the left-hand lane, and if it is to the right, go in the right-hand lane. In the UK people already on the roundabout have priority.

I prefer them to traffic lights because you don't have to stop so much.

They're not getting rid of the double deckers in London. They have been replacing the old double decker fleet (some were 30+ years old) in London with ones that are better for disabled access. The new ones don't need conductors either. This has upset people. (I think conductors are fab, and should be bought back wholescale, but that's a whole other debate).

Scotland probably has too many accents to count... There are a lot of accents in the whole of the UK, 20 miles is a long way in these parts.

Not sure what you mean by squiggley lines by the side of the road... if you mean zigzags, they're usually by pedestrian crossings or schools, places where it would be ultra stupid and dangerous to park...

Helga

In my city there are many accents. Not from the immigrants, but we have the North Ender accent as they call it. It seems to be in more prevelent in Native groups and any people who .... I guess really are poor or those who live out of the city in some areas and more prevelent in blue collared work. Sometimes I find myself talking like that because I live right by that area and a lot of people I interact with are from there. A lot more 'ehs. A lot of "ya 'eh" "hey". It is more of a sterotypical Cdn accent - well one of the types. Teased as being backwoodish/backwards. The jaw is more rigid. You say things with an upward...can't think of the word. It is like you are constantly in the motion of asking a question! Almost like valley-girl speak.

"You wanna go to da Nordern, eh?
"You want to go to the Northern?" It's a bar in on Main Street. Not a good area. My bus goes through there. It used to be called one of the worst streets in Canada. A drunk lady would routinely ask me when I used to talk the bus to university. Joy.

Some people moved in next to me when I was a kid and I picked up the accent like it was nothing and my Mum got mad at me for it. She was worried about people thinking I was stupid. That is one of the sterotypes with that type of North Ender accent. You are Native, stupid and on welfare. Totally not a fair assessement.

One slight swing on that accent has it being really choppy. I think it is b/c of one of the Cree languages. I think that one was really choppy and well you know what happens with accents.

Slangs, wording ... was totally different. I wish I could remember some of them.

I'm sure everyone knows that here we have people who talk differently in Quebec to those who live in the Atlantic Provinces (different ones there). Those ones I find neat. Newfoundlanders are just crazy! It's cool. The way they say their sentences and the phrases they have are just so different. They where mostly the butt of all jokes as Cda grew up. It isn't as popular with the yonger sect.

I was told that I refer to my bathroom in an odd way. So I looked it up:

I notice that is starting to fade out. There have been articles written that voice the concern that we are losing our identity - our words, the way we say stuff and the way we talk.

Does that sounds odd to any Americans or people over the pond? The bathroom stuff I mean.

How about "ABM"? No, it doesn't stand for "A Bowel Movement" it means "Automated Banking Machine". In the USA it is referred to as an "ATM" or "Automatic Teller Machine".

I had an American penpal who thought this was weird: Anglophone: This term refers to a Canadian who's native or first language is English.

Does anyone have anything similar in their country?

I'm sorry to continue, but I really want to know!

How about:
Duo-Tang: A paper notebook, similar to a double pocket portfolio but it has 3 metal prongs in the center. Each prong has 2 pieces of metal that fit through the 3 ring paper holes. Spread the prongs apart or bend them down to hold the paper in place. Perfect for school reports!
Do you call it that?

How about: Ensuite, entree (I've heard you should say meal instead in the States or else you'll get a blank stare), homo milk, a micky, poutine, serviette.

I wanted to know about the accents b/c I didn't know if my views of accents being so vastly different where just part joke or whole truth. I always found history (and all of it's realted stuff - linguistics) so cool, so I wanted to know.

How about - I'm going to the Vendor so I can get a 2 4. You need it when you watch some shimmy.

If you are Newfoundland:
I'll be dere da rackley
means
I'll be there in a few minutes

Idn't dat fulish bye => (Isn't that foolish...and of course we Newfies say bye at the end of many phrases, instead of the eh associated with Canadians!)

I swear that Newfies have the shortest conversation in the world, all of two words, that mean a mouthful!

I want to know what this would mean to you:
Good morrow to you.

Well apparently it means "You are mistaken" in NFLD.

To me it meant - good morning.

Gee...I guess I'm trying to make this post go on forever without even trying. I'm soooo sorry I keep babbeling and going off on a tangent. I just get so excited and start to think.

The way schools work here, 9th grade can either be in the junior high or high school depending on your school district. My district had the 9th grade as part of the high school. My roommate had 9th grade as part of junior high and I had 9th grade in the high school (she went to the biggest high school in the state and I went to the smallest high school in a 3 high school district (basically, Parma = Mentor in population, but mentor has all the students in 1 high school while parma has split it up into 3 high schools)). Either way, you are a freshman in the 9th grade. 10th grade is your sophomore year. 11th grade is your junior year. And 12th grade is your senior year. The same is true for college (or University -- as Emily said, the terms are synonomous -- I believe there is a distinction in the number of schools it has. My sister goes to Baldwin Wallace College -- the population is mostly undergraduate students and there is no law school/med school or anything like that. I go to CAse Western Reserve University -- with a med school, dental school, law school, social sciences school, business school in addition to a graduate school and undergraduate school -- both split into school of engineering, college of arts and sciences, and business school). Anyway, first year = freshman, 2nd year = sophomore, 3rd year = junior, 4th year = senior. Interestingly, in graduate school, we don't have specific names for what year we are -- so I am just a 3rd year, not a junior. Hope that wasn't too confusing .

So, senior high school is not the same as being a senior in high school . The three high schools in Parma are Normandy High School (my alma mater -- class of '98 ), Parma Senior High, and Valley Forge High School. The Senior high designation was to distinguish the 9-12 grade school from the junior high school 7-8th grade when the schools were first set up (this was before even my dad went to school in the 1950's and 1960's!) and there was only 1 high school and 1 junior high. Parma was (and still is) a very heavily catholic city where many of the children went to one of the many catholic schools (which are a totally other topic).

Oh, another thing with college and university -- I would say "I'm in college" regardless of the fact I actually go to a University. Also, I would call myself a "college student" regardless fo the fact I go to a university. Actually, I would be more specific and call myself a "3rd year graduate student (or PhD student)" meaning that I am working for a degree above a bachelor's degree (in my case a BS) and also in my case, I already have a MS so i am working for a PhD (and once I pass the qualifier, i will be a PhD canidate) (it's hard to keep straight, so we usually go with College Student for nonprofessional communication). My sister is a "senior undergraduate student" she's in her 4th year of college before she has any degree -- she'll hopefully get her BA at the end of the year. Yet, we still call her a "college student", too. Oh, and anyone who spends beyond 4 years working on their bachelor's degrees are referred to as "super seniors".

Hmm, I don't know if it's only rich people who look down on community colleges. I sometimes do because I'm a snob, but not "rich", per say . No, honestly, community colleges serve a great purpose -- if nothing more than to give a two year start on your education -- the classes transfer to many universities. Plus, the one in Parma has the fireman program and a lot of technical programs. Many, many people form my high school went there. Actually, the colleges I look down on are the for-profit colleges (like the one that used to emply my dad) who provide a sub-par education for tons of money.

Weird! I drive a Toyota, and my roommate drives a Voltswagon, so it isn't a generalization that Americans drive only American cars -- in fact, Toyotas and Hondas are both made in Ohio while many traditionally "American" cars are made in Mexico and Canada.

Those are actually two of the reasons my family boycots WalMart. I know in Ohio there are no firearms signs on a lot of buildings because a concealed carry law has recently been passed so it is no longer illegal to carry a concealed fire arm (don't even get me started about that law) yet establishments are permitted to not allow concealed weapons in their specific place of business and they have signs displaying their personal regulations. However, I have never been to Minnesota, so I have no idea what their laws are.

Interesting! The only part of Canada I've been to is Ontario, but the thing we love about Canada is that EVERYTHING tends to be cheaper there! Well, food is equally expensive because of the GST/PST added, but when you do the money exchange, it is pretty similar! We LOVE shopping in Canada! The exchange rate is awesome, and if we spend enough money, we get the tax back at the border!

Okay, I know you are talking about England, but we have them in the US, too. the annoying thing is that there is no standard rule about them! The ones in northeast ohio, you are supposed to yield to incoming traffic if you are in the circle. However, in MAssechuesettes, the rules are entirely the opposite. I nearly got into several accidents in Western Mass. when i yeilded in the round about!

Because they are cheap and have a drive through? No, I don't know. I prefer Dunkin' Donuts and Tim Hortons , but yesterday while we were working at the concession stand, my roommate convinced me I wanted Krispie Kremes and we had to make a special trip after work just to get some! (but i convinced her she wanted better, closer Royal Donuts, so we didn't have to get Krispie Kreme).

I'd call it a folder. If someone said "what kind of folder", I'd say "the cool one with the prongs inside".

I've never heard of any of these -- except maybe serviette.

As for accents, there is a very interesting variation of accents just in the state of Ohio. I have a clearly northern Ohio from Cleveland accent. I sound basically like the people on TV (but I say "pop" and not "soda" ). People south of Cleveland (especially living in more rural areas) have a different accent -- it isn't a southern accent exactly, but it is clearly different from the way I speak. You can tell if a person is from Cleveland, Columbus or Cincinatti just by hearing them speak. It's really interesting. Similarly, you can tell if someone is from Pittsburgh, Pennslyvania from their accent, too.

- Laura

Woo-hoo! 100th post in this thread! Cool! <g>

Anyway, Laura explained the school system and the traffic circles (aka toundabouts), but I thought I'd address this:

Ensuite and serviette I know from my dim memories of high school French. Ensuite basically means "together" or "and then...", IIRC, and serviette is a napkin (or towel, depending on context). In the US, we'd just use the english words.

Entree is used in some (generally more upscale) restaurants to mean "the main course." It's not really used day-to-day.

We do have homogenized milk, but we don't call it "homo milk." "Homo" here is a derogatory slang term for homosexual. Generally, we just call it "milk," actually. It's all pasteurized and homogenized.

"A micky" is a drug some unscrupulous person might "slip" in a date's drink or something. The term is kind of old-fashioned, though. Just "Mickey" is a cartoon mouse.

I don't know what "poutine" is, and it seems babelfish doesn't either. Oh well.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that those folder things have a name around here. They're "three-ring binders." Generally they're just called "binders."

Paul

A mickey was short for mickey finn, which is all I knew, and I was curious enough to try finding out who Mickey Finn was. I found a couple of possibilities, but as always with the origins of phrases you can take them with a pinch of salt.

or

As Paul says, it's not a word/phrase much in use these days.

As for poutine - french fries covered with melted cheese and gravy? (oh and we call french fries chips btw, not to be confused with chips (US) which we call crisps ) No, don't think we have any equivalent to that one, Roo!!


LabRat

Couple of random bits to throw into the mix:

'homo milk', to my ears, sounds positively kinky.

Paul used 'upscale' - the UK equivalent would be 'up market'.

You may be right. We appear to be getting lots more 'bendy buses', which are single-decker buses that are twice as long as normal buses but are articulated in the middle. The joke is that these new-fangled bendy buses had to be withdrawn from service for a while because they kept catching fire. Could it be that we're rapidly losing those tedious, old-fashioned skills that no-one's interested in any more - like how to make a vehicle that doesn't kill its passengers?

Oh, and on a tangent - can you believe that my hairdresser didn't know where Canada is? "It's somewhere in America, isn't it?" she said. I asked carefully what she meant by America, just in case she meant the continent, rather than the country. Nope, she meant the country. So can I take this opportunity to apologise to Canadians for the English educational system, which seems to have omitted Canada from its geography lessons?

(Mind you, the EU forgot to include Wales in a recent map of the UK, so the English aren't the the only ones with geographically-challenged citizens...)

Yvonne

Can I just say how much I love your hairdresser, Y, given that she's just smashed my record as Queen of the Geographically-Challenged forever? There's no way I can ever mess up worse than this. Even if I get on the train to France and end up in Tibet, I'm still way ahead.

LabRat

Brava on your attitude, Lab! But I did want to let you know, I've read *most* of this thread, but I haven't gotten to read SOMH yet (high on my list of to-do, Lab!! I'm exctied to read it. ). I don't consider myself spoiled in regards to SOMH. You all are talking about such a small snippet of the story that out of context, all it tells me it that Lois ends up falling for Clark. And, well...I would have expected that eventually, right? Anyway, I like to think of it like I do movie trailers. If you watch a movie trailer *after* you've seen the movie, you think "Man, *why* would that put those clips in there?! That gives away the whole movie!" But then when you see a preview (trailer) *before* the movie, do you remember that little clip showing the guy with the gal that you didn't think would get together? Not really.

Anyway...I've veered OT, sorry.

Here in Arizona, we have words painted on the roads. And yes they're written in the order in which you drive over them, presumably for easier reading :rolleyes: . This always confused me and I remember asking my mom when I was younger why they had the words out of order. (AHEAD SCHOOL...that's for those smart kids, right? The ones who want to get ahead? )

I know a few others have answered this already, Vicki, but I thought I'd share too. To me, I use either. "He lives just up the road" or "He lives just down the road." Just whatever word comes out first I guess. For quite some time, the nearest Krispie Kreme was in Phoenix, two hours away. People would actually *pay* others to buy them a dozen KK's when they heard there was a trip to Phoenix! Weirdos! Anyway, people were *so* excited when they finally opened one here. :rolleyes:

Lab, you should talk to Mere...she thinks you can *drive* from California to Hawaii! /me ducks

Sara (who really hadn't expected to catch up with this thread, let alone post )

I'm not very good at this lurker business...

In the north of England 'chipsintgraivy' is very popular, and in the Midlands you often come across cheesey chips... so put the two together (somewhere around Chester maybe...?) and you end up with 'cheesey chipsintgraivy'.

Helga

Two thoughts on being Geographically-Challenged:

1 - I've travelled all around the world, and everywhere I go, I have to point out Puerto Rico on the globe. I'm surprised how many people I've met who thought it was "somewhere in the Pacific"!

2 - Back when I lived in the States (NY, to be exact), we had 2 visitors from Italy. (They were visiting interns at our town's hospital, and I can't remember how they ended up at our house. But I digress...) I remember they asked if we had a map of the U.S., because they were planning to go on a road trip. I guess they were used to looking at maps of Italy, and didn't realize just how much bigger the U.S. is, because they got all excited, saying, "Oh, we can drive down to Florida on Saturday, and then on Sunday we'll drive out and see the Grand Canyon, and then on Monday we'll go see Hollywood..."

- Vicki

I did that. A few years back, Stuart and I were planning a US road trip and by the time I was done we had three years worth of things to visit packed into two weeks. We kept having conversations consisting of:

Me: So we can go from there to there and that will take up Saturday afternoon...
Stuart: But that's four day's worth of driving...
Me: Oh, don't be silly - it's only a couple of inches on the map, look!

Much rolling of eyes and one more attempt to explain relative map distances from husband...

We never did make that trip in the end - which was a good thing as it turned out, because that was the year that all the national parks etc had to close down due to budget deficits meaning there was no cash to keep them open and Arizona was flooded out in the worst rains for as long as anyone could remember.


LabRat

Not to dis anyone at all for being geographically challenged, but it does always amaze me when I meet someone who can't read a map. And I mean, has no idea which way is North. Perhaps because we traveled so much when I was a child but I can get us pretty much anywhere as long as I have a good map. I love maps. Nothing more fun to look at than a brand new Rand McNally!

I'm always very saddened by the US educational system when it comes to geography. If a child is lucky, they will leave school knowing all fifty states, the continents, and the larger nations of the world. When I was in school (back in the dark ages) we had to memorize all of the countries of each continent. I've met Americans who have no idea where Ohio or Indiana is - they imagine that the US starts with New York on the east coast, skips a few dozen states and all of the sudden you are in California on the west coast. For crying out loud, it's their own country!

Just a pause to say WOW! Is this some kind of board record - the number of posts in one thread? This is so amazing!!

Lynn

Yes! I've met people like this, too! It's sad that a college friend of mine from Massetcheusets (going to school in Ohio) had a hard time distinguishing from Iowa and Ohio -- "They both have farms and are there in the middle and have lots of vowels". When she was interviewing for her job at the Cleveland Clinic, the person who was interviewing her thought Minneapolis was a city in Massecheusets! And even worse, there have been people who mistake Idaho, Ohio, and Iowa!

- Laura

Adding to the geography part of this thread... I had to learn the locations, names and capitals of all Canadian provinces and territories. Course that's 13 as opposed to 50... I can also always locate Israel - I can point out where it is even if it's not marked, which happens on small maps.

Julie

Regarding firearms laws in MN, they recently passed a law that made it legal to carry concealed weapons if you have a permit. The loophole is that business and organization owners can ban weapons on their property even if the owner has a permit -- and most do. So now everywhere you go, you see signs up saying "No Guns/Weapons Allowed."

Regarding the geography, I can read a map -- but I usually need a compass to know which way I'm going unless the road signs are well marked.

Some people seem to think that Minnesota is along the same latitude as the North Pole and we have snow all year round. It was absolutely beautiful today -- about 70 -- and the fall colors are just gorgeous.

A variety of unrelated comments here...

1) Poutine. We were completely stumped when we first saw poutine appearing on fast-food outlet menus in Canada (four years ago). It's not cheese and gravy on top of chips, Rat; it's cheese curds. It's a Québec thing. Never been tempted to try it!

2) Entrées. That term is used on many restaurant menus in the US, Paul - just about any table-service restaurant I've been to. And I can never figure out why 'entrée' is used to mean main course! It would make sense for an entrée to be a starter/appetiser, given the meaning of the word. Its use for a main course makes no sense at all!

3) College/university. While 'university' is more frequently used in the UK, people do also talk about 'college' when meaning a university. Some UK universities are organised on the 'college system' - in other words, the university is divided into several colleges. Oxford, Cambridge, Durham, the University of London and the University of Wales are among those organised that way. I did my degrees at Trinity College, Dublin, and would always say that I was going in to college, not to university, when leaving the house. But what I can't understand is why Americans refer to universities as schools. To me, a school is something one attends between the ages of 4 or 5 up to between 16-18.

There may have been more that I intended to comment on, but can't remember at the moment! Fascinating thread!


Wendy

To me, a school is any place where you can learn something with a group of people in a classroom setting. So a college/university would fall into that category.

Oh, goodie more to read but I cannot read it all right now.

Oh duo tangs are not binders. We call binders...binders! LOL Yeah, I always giggled when I was younger about homo-milk. I don't drink it now so I don't think much about it. My pen pals still tease me about it.
I thought not all milk is homo. There is Fat Free, 1%, 2% and so on. I know when I went to Starbucks I had to say whole-milk when I was in North Dakota. That was when I had my first coffee...and I drank it all. I made sure I called it that b/c I didn't want to offend anyone.

Oh I was in Minneapolis hmm....Sept of 2003. I think in the first week b/c it was a long weekend here. I shopped 'til I dropped. Clothing specifically.

Oh I realize not all Americans just drive American cars I just had mini shock when I went to Grand Forks and saw only one 'foreign' car and that was at the end of my trip. I just thought it was odd. The second time I went I saw more, but they where mostly from Minnesota.

A poutine is a French Canadian dish. It is chip (French Fries) with gravy and cheese on top. Sometimes it is cheese curds but some restaurants use graded cheese. Cheese curds are better.

I call pot. chips crisps and fries either fries or chips, but in public I call crisps potato chips. At my old work crew got confused when a customer would say chips and they would give them old Dutch pot. chips and not French fries. Ugh.

I've been on double deckers and bendy buses. the bendy's made me dizzy.

The big drive I've done a couple times is only Winnipeg to Edmonton. I almost did WPG to Jasper, but that is a total headache. When I saw the sign that said take this road to Alaska, boy was I tempted. Now, I wish I did.

OH this is a total side note, but since it is in my head and most likely won't be in a few minutes I'll spill it out here. Where on Earth are the 7-11s? I looked it up and there are non in North and South Dakota. The closest one to me is in Chicago. They are plentiful up here, they are EVERYWHERE. Winnipeg is the so-called Slurpee capital. Who knows. I just thought it was an American country and well, wouldn't they be everywhere? I was there and I needed a Slurpee BAD. Here we have Frosters at Macs, Cold Sucks at Husky, I can't remember the name for the ones at Shell and well Slurpees at Sev (sorry that's 7-11 for those who are going huh?)

Here a Mickey has to do with beer.
2 4 has to do with...beer.
Shimmy is hockeyish...and well apparently you need beer for that.
vendor is where you get....beer.

I don't like beer, but I think the old stubbies are very cute.

Another side note = I’m annoyed that no one sells mushy peas here,

When I was in school I had to learn all the prov an capital like any other poor sot, but I had to know the all the States and all the capital and American History. I learned all the countries and their capital of all those in South America, Central America and the Caribbean. We choose a couple other continents to learn, but I chose all b/c I enjoy it...while other groaned. Now meet me in French class and I'll groan. No I didn't go to a private school, I was public and it has a bad rep. Gangs...now it is finally getting it's due. It was named one of the better high schools in Cda in a national magazine. I just wanted to say I'm proud of them b/c they've been fighting the bad rap since they opened in the 1960s when my mum went there. (Side history note that I'm proud of, sorry I gotta do it. Do you know the Guess Who or Neil Young? The Guess Who gang, most of them went to my High School. I think Neil Young got kicked out and had to go to another one in the area but he lived a couple of blocks away an a few from my Mum. The Maintence guy I used to work with at McD hated Burton Cummings b/c the guy though he was all that in HS. LOL. SORRY. My school just gets teased so much. When I went to university and the teacher asked which school I was from the kids proceeded to move their desks away from me. They though I'd beat them up. Ugh, they were all from the South End and River Heights...rich kids. My husband went to the school I was afraid of. A lot of his graduating class went to jail and many are rolling in money though too. LOL FUnny he thought my school was bad. Perspective can be funny. One of the premiers of our prov went to my HS. Maybe there is hope for me yet. Fingers are crossed.....Shut up ROo.)
Sorry my typing is horrid. I'm typing in the dark on my notebook in bed w/ the screen on it's lowest light setting. Don't want to disturb the husband.

OH don't feel bad y'all who are geographically challenged. I've had a geog proff who was that. I think I've told that tale before.

Hmmm, I think it is better to be better with words personally. It's harder and well you use it more often and you need it to communicate. I wish I had that gift. I'm horrid with spelling, vocabulary, grammar.........

Hmmmmm. Guess there must be regional variations of the recipe then – this was the website I found through Google: Timon\'s Poutine No idea what cheese curds are, but sounds icky. <g> I'd actually be tempted to try the gravy and cheese thing - if chips weren't so unfriendly to my current diet and off the menu.

LabRat

I looked them up, and found: Cheese curds are fresh, young cheddar cheese in the natural, random shape and form before being processed into blocks and aged. (Cheddar cheese is typically aged from 60 days to 4 years before being sold.)

I'd never heard of them before.

French fried with gravy are the quintessential after-drinking snack back where I grew up. At 4 am the bars would close, and the diner where I worked as a waitress would fill up with people ordering coffee and fries with gravy. No one ever asked for cheese (or cheese curds) to be put on them, though!

- Vicki

I googled too, Rat, and got the site you found. Interesting - cheddar and gravy doesn't sound too bad at all. But most sites refer to cheese curds, which makes me go

For anyone who's interested, here's an article about the origins of poutine.


Wendy (wishing everyone a happy Canadian Thanksgiving )

Geography lessons depend on the school. When I was in.. um, it was Mr. Baher (Bear), so that was 7th grade, we went through and learned all the countries and their placement in Europe, and possibly Africa. I don't remember doing Africa, but since his favorite town was Djibouti, Djibouti, I'm sure we must have. Seriously, it's fun to say. Djibouti, Djibouti, Djibouti... but I digress. In other classes, I had to learn all 50 states and their capitols (which I did fairly well in, since I had a game where I had to match states and capitols a few years before that, but I can't remember them all anymore!), and learn all the counties in Pennsylvania. But don't ask me where certain counties, or even countries, are anymore. I've forgotten most of them. With Europe, I can at least usually remember what's in Western Europe, since those are the big countries. Anything else is "isn't around here somewhere?"

Driving distance in Europe seems odd to me. I know it's a 3 day trip from my place to California, and at least one full day of driving to Canada, since it's 9 hours to my dad's in Pennsylvania, another 2 hours to the PA/NY border from there, and then whereever I want to cross from beyond there. I look at a map of Europe, and boggle that it's not that much of a drive from one country to another. But I'm also a map hog, so I tend to look at distances and milage markers.

Gravy with fries just seem weird to me. But, then so do wings and gravy. We regularly go to a wing place with some friends, and my husband ordered Southern-style wings (heavily breaded and fried). They gave him brown gravy to go with it. I know we're in the south, but ew. A friend of ours looked at her cheese fries and his gravy, and then asked for the gravy. She decided that the combination was pretty good, and wiped out the rest of the gravy.

7-11's seem to be a north-eastern thing (when dividing the US into 4 quadrants, and ignoring the whole "midwest" idea). Of course, I've only really been in the eastern side of the US, so can't speak for the west, other than I remember one in Dallas-Ft. Worth. I saw a fair amount in Northern Indiana, and a few in Pennsylvania, but it's rare to see one in the south. I miss Big Gulps. *sigh*

The ones I've had, the cheese curds are put on cold and the gravy heats it up and melts it. Yum. Great now I want some! Mainstream places like New York Fries have yummy poutines. McD tried and those didn't taste so good. When I go to KFC I always get fries and gravy. OOOOH.
Thanks! Me too.

When I had Japanese relatives come over for a little while they thought they could drive over to Niagra Falls and come back in a weekend. Only Superman can do that or a lot of money by plane... My English relatives got flabbergasted when they went on a road trip to BC. I had a penpal who didn't understand why I didn't go to the Mountains to go snowboarding more often. She said she did it. Yeah, but she lived in Germany and she just had to hop over to Switzerland. Lucky gal.

This isn't related to grammar and food, but it is a US/UK difference. Tea, how do you y'all make it? My family get offended easily when tea has been poorly made. I won't go into what they really say. I thought it was just personal preference on how picky you are, but I was told no. I won't get into CDN stuff b/c I'm sure we are just a combo of it all.

Mmmm, tea. The water *has* to be boiling when it goes onto the leaves, and it's best if the pot has been warmed first so that the tea draws properly while it's still hot. I say "leaves", incidentally, but mine come in bags - my mother would never use bags, only loose tea, but the bags have come a long way in thirty years.

Then the milk has to go into the cup first. Seriously, you can taste the difference when the milk has been scalded by being added to the tea instead of the other way round. I always roll my eyes when I see actors in "British" roles pouring the tea first and then adding the milk - even Anthony Hopkins did it playing C.S. Lewis in Shadowlands. :rolleyes:

And it has to be full cream (whole) milk. Skimmed or semi-skimmed tastes thin.

(We probably shouldn't get into whether the cream or the jam goes onto the scones first...)

Mere

I wasn't going to reply, but... but... but... I couldn't let this go. (And I know it has been the subject of many a Times' letter page...)

Sorry Mere. You're wrong

If you put the milk in first, how can you be sure the tea will end up the right colour?

Helga

Well, I'm sorry ladies, but why, pray, are you adding milk at all?

(Actually, I add milk myself, being of English parentage, but many of my Scottish friends drink their tea black.)

Yvonne

But you're all wrong! The correct way to drink tea is with lemon.


Wendy

No, no, no!! Tea first, then milk. As Helga says, if you add tea to the milk, you can't be sure you won't have put too much milk to begin with. As for scones, strawberry jam definitely goes BEFORE the cream.

Kaethel (who recommends Weinholt's of Chester for the best cream tea ever - plenty of cinnamon in their scones )

I drink my tea black. No milk, no honey, nothing...unless it's chai. I'm usually more of a coffee drinker, but I like tea as well, especially in the winter months.

Since we're talking hot tea, and not iced tea, I can happily put in my two cents. Oddly, I love hot tea, but I don't really like ice tea. But when I do drink ice tea, it must have sugar in it. 1 cup sugar to two quarts tea.

It really depends on the flavor of tea. If I'm drinking Liptons (orange and black pekoe), it's 4 teaspoons of sugar first, then enough milk to turn it a nice tanish brown color. If I'm drinking other flavors (earl grey, english breakfast, irish breakfast, rose tea), it's usually about 2 and a half teaspoons, and milk depending on my mood. Milk NEVER goes into rose leaf tea. And I usually use what's in the fridge, which is usually 2% milk. At work, I have to use powdered creamer.

Rose leaf is the only loose leaf tea I have, and I use a tea ball when making that.

The kettle is usually taken off the burner soon before it whistles, unless I'm distracted, because the whistling grates on my nerves. I only use the microwave when I'm visiting somewhere. The coffee maker at work has a hot water spigot, so I use that.

I don't like lemon, so I don't use it. But I learned the hard way, being curious one time, that lemon will curdle the cream. Blech.

Good heavens, Helga... you add the right amount of milk, of course! (Sheesh - do I have to teach you English everything?)

Nope, whipped cream is far nicer. And if one absolutely has to have jam


Wendy

On the current food-related discussions...

Cheese curds, huh? Sounds awful when you say it that way, but I, for one, like cottage cheese (although I generally add maple syrup to it).

Cheese fries are yummy, but I don't generally indulge.

Anyone here familiar with potatoes au gratin?

Tea:

I keep several kinds stocked at all times, so I'm ready with the right one when the mood strikes. My faves are (in no particular order) cinnamon, mint, irish breakfast, vanilla, oolong, and a special rare kind sold only in a certain place in northern Virginia -- "Mount Vernon Blend."

I tried tea with milk on that aforementioned trip to England. I just don't get it. It's so wrong.

No lemon for me, either.

I do take plenty of sweetener, though.

Like Laura, I love hot tea, but I can't stand iced. Weird, but... <shrug>

Tea with honey is great for a sore throat, but I haven't had it in ages. Not really good for diabetics.

The water... Full rolling boil, about to boil with those little bubbles, steaming hot... It's all the same to me, really. As long as it's hot enough to steep, I'm happy. Actually, my tongue burns easily, so I prefer it to be less than boiling. Doesn't take as long to cool down enough so I can actually drink it.

Tea bags are okay. They serve well enough, most of the time. I find the quality of loose tea is generally better, though. More flavor, better steeping.

Of course, now you have me thinking about making coffee, too, which just brings to mind the conversation I started putting together in my head when half asleep a few nights ago. Don't ask me why. Timmy just started it up, which is kind of wrong, actually, because Timmy is too young for coffee, if you ask me. Anyway, the converstaion went like this (with Martha making small talk, and Lois... not):

Martha: Coffee? Oh, what kind of coffee?

Lois: Uhm... slow roasted, and finely ground.

Martha: Not instant, then?

Lois: Instant? Well... not this time, no. Instant can be good, for when you just need some quick coffee, but brewed is so much better, don't you think?

Martha: I suppose so...

Lois: It's just so much better when you take your time about it. Let the water get gradually hotter, until it starts to steam, and then boil up... And then it makes its way slowly through the grounds, until you get some nice, hot, flavorful coffee...

Martha: I never realized you felt so strongly, Lois.

Lois: ... And then, at the end, you stir in some sugar...

Martha: I thought you used artificial sweetener...

Lois: Not with Clark!

Martha: Oh. Uhm, okay... Well, then... What about creamer?

Lois: Martha!

Martha: What? What did I say?

And so on. ... Nice to get that out of my head, anyway...

Paul

I'm with Wendy on whipped cream vs clotted cream. Had clotted cream on my scones at Betty's in York, and even though it was very nice, I prefer my scones with lots of whipped cream on top.

Now, how about fish and chips? Mushy peas or no mushy peas? Malt vinegar or no malt vinegar?

For me, it's a large amount of mushy peas, and a large amount of vinegar on my chips!



Kaethel

OK, here's a question.

What, exactly, is "whipped cream" as defined by you tea-and-scones people?

Here in the US, it's heavy cream that has been whipped/beaten until very light and fluffy. Sometimes sugar is added to sweeten it, which is what I prefer. You can buy whipped cream in spray containers or you can buy Cool-Whip which isn't real whipped cream but is really, really good when spooned on to pumpkin pie. Yum!

I have no idea what clotted cream is. Sounds...like curdled milk to me. I'm sure it isn't.

Wendy - have you discovered those Canadian pastries, the butter pie? My husband loves those. Also, another Canadian dish called "pasties" always give me a big giggle. Here in the US, "pasties" (pronounced paysteez) are tiny discs a promiscous woman would "paste" on to certain parts of her anatomy. Usually they involve some sort of tassle <g>.

Lynn

Ooo, I love those! They're pronounced "pah-stees," and they're of Midieval English origin. Hard to find them around here, but they're great!

My favorite pub food.

Paul

Nope, that couldn't have been me. I don't drink anything hot, for the most part. I had jaw surgery years ago, and I still do not have feelings in my lip/gums, so I don't ever drink anything hot because I am afraid of getting a blister I wouldn't be able to feel in my mouth. I will drink iced tea, but I really am a coffee drinker (iced coffee, actually ). However, I do go out of my way to drink Starbucks' Passion Fruit Iced Tea. I put cream in my coffee. Sometimes. But milk in tea? That just seems disgusting to me for some reason. I sometimes put sugar into my tea and coffee, but not all that often.

I am a little confused about scones. Are they the same dry, kind of sweet bread-like thing that they sell in coffee shops? I sort of like the white chocolate rasperry kind, but none of the other flavors. And I can't imagine eating it with whipped cream (sugar overload!), so maybe I am picturing the wrong thing.

I think I am confusing "pub food" and "bar food". I like onion rings when I go to the bar . I am pretty sure I've never been to an English Style Pub -- well, except the Fox and the Hound (it calls itself an english pub) where I get (surprise, surprise) Onion Rings.

- Laura

Sorry, Laura. That was Karen. Memory glitch, and I was too lazy to double-check.

Yes, coffee shop scones are fairly close to English ones. They're kind of like biscuits, but dryer and a little sweeter (especially the raisin ones. Yum.). BTW, a crumpet, IIRC, is a scone with a little more milk in the batter.

As for Pubs, I have yet to see one outside the UK. They're not really bars. They're sort of bar/family restaurant hybrids, basically (weird, but it works... you just have to watch out for transition hours). With dark atmospheres and high wooden booths (for maximum privacy... so you can talk with your family or friends without being bothered by other conversations). They serve basic food like pies. Not dessert pies, but dinner pies. Pasties (meat in pastry), Shepherd's pie, Steak and Kidney Pie, etc. Sort of like hamburgers are served in some bar/restaurants here.

That all sound about right, UK FoLCs?

Paul, who has nothing better to do at the moment.

I always thought "clotted cream" was just the UK way of saying "whipped cream". I didn't know they were two separate things.

As to tea, I drink mine with milk & sugar. I also like green tea, which I drink plain. (I was going to say I drink it 'black', but that's not right. I drink it 'green'? )

- Vicki

My husband goes bonkers (in his own way) if milk does not go in first. K. This guy is 6'2", has a biker jacket and has an evil look on his face most of the time and he likes his tea. He loves Prince of Wales and English Breakfast tea. He hates Earl Grey. He says it tastes like flowers. I dislike tea, but love ice-tea. I hate coffee too, but I'm learning to like it. But so far I just like 'candy' coffee - Starbucks mocha. Can we say Big Mac in a cup! Actually a Big Mac is better for you than most of those candy coffees so I try to get mine without the cream on top and get skim milk. It knocks it down a bit. I investigated. I can so picture Lois being picky in a specialty coffee shop OR she'd come in and get the basic over and over again.

I'm sorry, but the site makes me giggle when he has his tea set on Sunday mornings.

That stuff rocks.

I often thought of a skit w/ Lois and Clark over a cup of tea or coffee. Those two always had wine and I don't know why but those scenes irritated me.

Actually, pub is a generic term which covers every kind of bar under the sun. The ones you describe above, Paul, but also the typically US bar type, workman's pubs where the stench of beer hits you in the face when you go through the door and it's all a little seedy <g>, and country pubs where the atmosphere is old horse brasses and log fires. Among many other types, up and down the country.

Although I think pub as a term is fading out of fashion these days. I still hear people saying they're "Nipping down to the local" but I hear them saying less these days, "I'm going down the pub." But that could be a regional thing.

The tea thing was interesting - and seems to be down to personal taste rather than a US/UK difference. I gave up tea a couple of years back - apparently the tanin in it is bad for your blood pressure. Now, I drink cupasoup instead. As far as I know there is no ritual about how to make that, so it's a lot more boring a subject for discussion. Funny thing is, after years of drinking tea, after not having any for a couple of months I couldn't bear the taste of it when I had to revert to it one day after running out of cupasoup. Have never been able to drink it since.


LabRat

The only way to drink tea is not at all! LOL!
I like chips plain with nothing on them. Most Aussies eat them with tomato sauce or chicken salt.

Tricia.

OK, Tricia. Now I have to ask. What is 'chicken salt'?

And when you say "tomato sauce", do you mean ketchup (or catsup as some spellings go)? I put ketchup on my french fries (chips) and on my hamburgers and hotdogs. But I put tomato sauce on top of my spaghetti (which I imagine a lot of people outside the US call marinara sauce).

So interesting!! And now I'm going to be able to travel all over and order food like a native <g>.

Lynn

No, actually, we'd call it tomato sauce or some variant of "Neopolitan". I think 'marinara' as a term for tomato sauce for spaghetti is actually a US invention. We (and probably the Italians) would expect marinara to have something marine-related in it, like fish or shell-fish.

Yvonne

Okay, I'm dropping in briefly to add my two pence worth...

Clotted cream and whipped cream are different -- and, Wendy, how can you possibly prefer whipped cream? That is a poor, poor alternative to clotted! Then again, maybe I'm showing the scars of having been brought up in the South West of England, where clotted cream is a particular specialty. (I escaped the local cider addiction, though. Thankfully.)

I can't remember the details, but I'm sure that making clotted cream involves putting pans of milk over a gentle heat. Whipped cream comes in a rather runny, liquid form and has to be, yes, whipped.

On the subject of geography, this thread reminds me of something a professor once said to me about all the geography questions in Trivial Pursuit: "That's not geography. That's general knowledge!" And another geographer once said to me that he might not know where somewhere was, but he knew how to find out. Isn't that, after all, what maps, atlases and gazeteers are for?
I will, however, spare you the discussion of just what geography is and what geographers do.

Chris (who studied geography for more years than she cares to think about)

Eek!!! Paul!! Maple syrup on cottage cheese?! Personally, I find that pineapple tidbits and a touch of cinnamon tastes *much* better. Some weird <g> people at my last job would put salsa in their cottage cheese! Blech!

Well...actually, Lynn, there is tomato sauce and there is marinara sauce...and meat sauce and...well I could go on . /me raises her hands...yeah? So what if I work at the Olive Garden? <g> Tomato sauce more smooth in texture...I imagine pureed tomatoes or tomato paste with water mixed in. Now marinara sauce OTOH, is more chunky in texture, often with diced onions and mild spices added in. But...this is what I know of US "Italian food" (though...they do say that all our recipies come from the Olive Garden Culinary Institue in Tuscany ...but I've gone on *far* too much about this ).

But at this:

Makes sense to me, Yvonne. Silly Americans!! :rolleyes:

Sara (who's now starting to wonder if she should ask El what all these Italian words on most of the wine bottles mean...then I can impress my managers )

Just thought I'd comment on this since it's what I do Those of us in the theatre world in the US spell it theatre. Now of course most people (not all) that aren't in the theatre world spell it theater and it looks wrong to me. Always has. But then I guess theatre looks wrong to non theatre people.

I'm the same on the theatre/theater remarks. Theatre is the stage, theater is the big screen. Except when I go to amctheatres.com... it's no wonder my fingers automatically type re.

Sorry, Lynn, I've just read this.

Chicken salt is a mixture of crushed bar-be-qued chicken skin and salt. It has a very salty taste. The tomato sauce we put on chips is the same as your ketchup. We also put tomato sauce on spaghetti but it is entirely different. It is usually made from fresh tomatoes, onion, garlic, other herbs, and sometimes has capsicum or mushroom in it. I know, we call both of them tomato sauce and they're nothing alike.

Anything marinara has a sea food in it.

Tricia

As salty as vegemite?

- Laura (who may still have some vegemite left in the cabinet )

On the tea issue-- we always boil the water in a teapot (tea kettle in the UK?)-- usually metal with a spout, cover, and handle and set onto the burner. Then the boiling water is poured over the teabag in the cup... or poured over the teabags or loose-tea-in-a-tea-ball in ANOTHER teapot (the ceramic kind you set on the table). My mom always put milk in our tea when I was growing up-- in northern Indiana near Chicago-- and the first time I had lemon in it was probably as a teenager. My parents were both born and raised near Chicago, never went to England, so I don't know where the milk habit came from. It was always milk into the tea, by the way. I still prefer my occasional cup of tea with milk, unless I have a sore throat... then it's honey and lemon.

My mom also used to make Russian Tea: equal parts Tang (powdered orange drink) and freeze dried tea (like Lipton's ice tea mix), about half the amount of sugar and a bit of cinnamon and cloves, and you pour boiling water over a couple of tablespoons of the mix in a mug. We drank that a lot in the winter time, to warm up.

Like Paul, I associate the words "cheese curds" with cottage cheese-- but have never, never liked anything sweet on it-- no pineapple or any of that. NEVER EVER heard of maple syrup on it-- can't imagine how that would taste, and I have no intention of ever finding out! :p I love to eat potato chips (the UK crisps) with cottage cheese-- my favorite way to eat cottage cheese is as a dip for potato chips. My 9 year old daughter likes to use Frito corn chips with cottage cheese. The 6 year old won't even taste cottage cheese.

The mushy peas thing-- ick! I like peas ok, although I'm not allowed to eat 'em anymore. (There's too much vitamin K in the dark green veggies, and vit K interferes with blood thinners. This is actually pretty rough since I'm a vegetarian-- kinda hard when you can't eat any green veggies!) Anyway-- I'd want 'em with butter and salt. The only way I'd ever ingest a mushed pea is if it's part of pea soup. :p

The Duo Tang things-- locally, we call 'em three-prong folders, or three-prong binders if they don't have the pockets.

I've heard of ensuite, entree, serviette, and mickey. Wendy's correct that many restaurants list their main dishes under the header of "Entrees"... I personally also use the word to mean "entering" ("The role was his entree into the professional world..."). And "ensuite" is used a lot to describe a room which "comes with" a bathroom-- like a "master bedroom" in real estate language. That brings me to
Yeah, never heard that... I'm familiar with 1/2 bath (sink and toilet), 3/4 bath (sink, toilet, shower) and full bath (sink, toilet, shower, and tub). As a matter of fact, my husband and I built on to our home a couple of years ago-- added a third car garage, covered the storm shelter (no longer out in the middle of the side-yard) and added a large room (currently the "playroom") and bath. WE considered it a full bath, as it allows the occupant to bathe as well as all the rest-- but because it has "only" a sink, toilet, and shower, it's considered a 3/4 bath. So I had a lot of fun with adding up our bathrooms for an imaginary real estate ad: we started with 2 and 1/2 baths, now added a 3/4 bath-- so we have how many baths? Let's see, change the "1/2" to "2/4" and add them up, that's 2/4 + 3/4 so we have 2 and 5/4 baths which is 3 and 1/4 baths ... I don't know, I can see somebody trying to figure out what, exactly, a 1/4 bath is!

~Toc (who didn't really intend to ramble on quite this long...)

Cheese curds? Aren't those the deep-fried things you get at the MN State Fair after standing in a really long line? Or in Wisconsin, take your pick.

Jelly -- to me, this is the stuff you spread on your toast, if you're so inclined. Or it can be jam, but either way, it's not jello.

Either swimming suit or swim suit is used more commonly here, but maybe it's a regional thing.

It's probably regional. I say "bathing suit". My 21 year old sister says "bay-ling suit".

I am still not sure what to say about mushy peas and cheese curds except that it kind of scares me. But I am an insanely picky eater. I generally don't eat things that are red, mushy, stringy, or dry.

- Laura

My friend's 3 year old says "baby soup".

- Vicki (who usually says "swim suit")

Janet said:

Actually, that's just a kettle. And in the UK and Ireland (can't speak for the rest of Europe) we've been using electric kettles for years. Hardly anyone uses stove-top kettles any more, and you never find electric kettles shaped to look like stove-top ones, yet these seem to be the majority of electric kettles on the American side of the Atlantic. We had a lot of difficulty finding a simple, good-quality kettle of the sort we had in the UK: cordless with a sealed element.

Like this:



Ensuite is common in the UK/Ireland too. But we only ever use the term 'bath' to refer to a bath - the thing you climb into and soak for hours while reading a good book. Otherwise it's a bathroom - but only if it has a bath or shower in it. If not, then it's just a toilet, or if one wishes to be coy, then a cloakroom. But then, coyness runs in both directions. I remember the first time I saw an advert for diahorrea medication on TV - in the US, of course; I was shocked! In the UK and Ireland, we're very reserved about such things - even advertisements for tampons never even hint at what they're used for.

Speaking of being coy, what's with 'restrooms'? Or 'washrooms' in Canada? When I'm out and need to use the toilet, it's not that I need to have a rest or to wash! Again, in the UK or Ireland, you'll see signs directing you to toilets. Or, occasionally, public conveniences.

One more thing, and changing the subject: Pasta v Noodles!

UK, Europe, I guess Australia: pasta is that Italian stuff you use to make lasagne, spaghetti Bolognese, tagliatelle, macaroni and so on. Noodles are used for chow mein and in stir-fries - ie for Chinese, Thai, Malaysian etc food. Noodles and pasta have different ingredients, according to Elena.

So I was taken aback to discover in the US/Canada something called 'pasta noodles'. As in 'place the lasagne noodles in the dish'. )

When I first came to Puerto Rico, many years ago, I was surprised to see a deodorant commercial where the model was putting the deoderant on their underarm. In the US commercials, the model would rub the stick on their forearm. (I always thought that was so silly. Do they still do that?)

- Vicki

LOL, Laura! An ensuite is usually off the main bedroom, and has a shower and toilet.

Tricia

Just caught up on the thread, there are so many things I want to comment on I had to write it down not to forget. <g>

Before starting on the whole tea/milk/whatever thing, I want to mention that I had a Russian/Ukranian upbringing - not English or American or Canadian.

My mom always made loose tea. She used teabags for a while when we came to Canada, but soon came back to loose. She uses pure ceylon tea and used to mix it with green tea - she stopped now, and I'm glad she did. <g> I like my ceylon tea with no milk, and no other kind of tea.

I am what my friends call a milkaholic (one even called me a Dairy Queen :rolleyes: ), but I don't like milk in my tea. I wasn't brought up to have it with milk, and my mom and grandmother always made my tea black with sugar (that's not what stops me from liking it - I just don't). I can't stand tea without sugar. My mother always says I put way too much sugar in - 2, sometimes 3 tea spoons to a teacup! I realize that it is a lot, and bad for me, but otherwise I don't like it very much. My cousin once tried it and went, "You got enough sugar in there to kill a horse." I was surprised, and I think it was then that I realized I was the freak in the family. <g>

I don't think it's odd at all - I completely share this opinion. I don't drink tea if it's boiling hot - I put in half a cup of boiling water and then add some cool boiled water - But I like it to be fairly hot. Nestea seems to be popular among my classmates, but I tried it once and couldn't even bring myself to finish that can. I thought it was really bad.

Tea, as I was taught, is good for eye infections. I had a pretty nasty one this summer, and my mom made me wash my eyes out with tea every night (cold tea <g>). Not sure if it helped, though, because besides that I also had eye drops. <g>

For sore throats I always had tea with lemon, and sometimes honey, but always in addition to sugar. Also, chewing on a piece of lemon with honey is good (and kind of tasty ).

As for coffee, I only have it on mornings when I am having trouble waking up, and even then I make it only caffeined enough to wake me up. I don't like the taste or smell particularly. I put in about half a tea spoon of instant coffee, 2 or 3 teaspoons of sugar, some boiling water, and lots of milk. Sometimes I put in a little bit of ice cream.

When I go to Tim Horton's, I don't order coffee, but always hot chocolate. I even order that in McDonalds sometimes. Milk chocolate and hot chocolate are my addictions since I can remember myself.

About the jam/jelly - I always considered jelly to be that thing they call Jell-O. Jell-O is not the correct name, but only the brand name of it which stuck - the technical name is jelly. Jam is what you put on toast or bread and sometimes have with peanut butter (though I never tried that combination and don't intend to).

As for fries, my friends always have them with ketchup, but I like them plain and hot. Chips are the ones that come in bags. <g> I never tried poutine, though they have it in my school's cafeteria. Sounds quite (in the US sense of the word <g>) good!

As for the binders, we call them three ring binders. Or just binders. And folders are the ones with no rings, just pockets on both sides to hold loose paper.

About bathrooms - when I lived in Israel, we had a shower, a tub, and a sink in the bathroom, and the toilet separately. I never used the shower, though - it was always just there, but we always showered in the tub. /me hopes that makes remote sense. It was really only in Canada that I realized toilets come with the bathroom. And here we have a tub, a sink, and a toilet - no shower. Not that I need it. <g> Wendy brought up another thing - a bath is where you sit for hours and soak with a good book. Just how exactly do you do that? I find that if I try to take a book in there with me it'll end up extremely wet.

As for the 711's, we've got plenty of 'em here. I like to tease my friend and say she lives in a 711, because that's her apartment number. <g>

Julie (who thinks this was more than a measely 2 cents )

Yeek. I can't even imagine using an electric kettle, but that's just me. Of course, I've never even seen one. I used to make my tea in the microwave, and still do when I go visiting, but I love my stovetop kettle. *pets it*

Restrooms are also a US thing. I guess someone, somewhere, figured it was more polite than bathrooms. Though some restaurants get creative for the men/women's signs on the door. I know instead of Women's or Ladies, Outback uses Sheilas. And I haven't figured out how to read properly in the bath yet. Even with wiping my hands on towels, the book still gets wet. I'm trying to figure out how to use the laptop there, though.

Actually, the technical name is gelatin. Jell-O Brand Gelatin. Though I prefer their chocolate pudding. Yum. To me, jelly is fruit spread with no real fruit. Jam is made with real fruit.

To me, Jello is gelatin. Jelly is fruit and sugar, boiled to a mash, then strained and allowed to gel. Jam is fruit and sugar, boiled to a mash and allowed to gel without straining first.

People in Puerto Rico use 'jelly' to refer to gelatin. I thought they were just mis-translating. I didn't know there were places in the English-speaking world that used the word like this. So, I learn something new everyday. (By the way, they also call hair-gel 'jelly' here.)

A rest room is the polite way to say bathroom. (The super-polite way, I suppose, would be to say 'powder room'.) A bathroom may or may not have a bathtub. It always has a toilet. Toilet, of course, being a flushable seat-like device, not the room itself.

- Vicki

Ohhh, I can tell my restroom story!

I grew up in Stratford-upon-Avon, and when I was at school I had a weekend job as a waitress in one of the tearooms there (touristy name for cafe/restaurant). As you can imagine we got lots of tourists, often from abroad, and often American, you developed a nack for dealing with cultural differences.

It was Tom's first day (not his real name), and this American man walks in, obviously fairly well-to-do (Several big cameras/camcorders slung round his neck). He walks up to Tom and asks if he could use the restroom. Tom innocently replies:

"I'm sorry we don't have one of those, but you can take a seat at the table in the corner if you like."

The man's face was a picture!

This incident beat my 'Bubble and Squeak' woman, another American I'm afraid. She asked me what bubble and squeak was (fair enough - it's fried mashed potatoes and leaks), but then couldn't grasp the idea that bubble and squeak was one complete dish. She kept saying "So that's the bubble, but what's the squeak?", and so it went on for several minutes...

Just to balance it out, we had our fair share of Brits who didn't get it. Such as the guy who sent back the clotted cream because it had 'gone off' (no, it's supposed to look like that), and prefered to have squirty cream out of a can (the only other alternative we had to give him).

Helga

Helga!! Your restroom story is *too* funny!

- Vicki

LOL, Helga. Thanks for sharing.

About the noodles... I'm not sure what happened on which side.

Dictionary.com says this about "noodle":

It further notes that the word comes from the German "Nudel," but, since I don't speak German, I don't know how that word is used.

Now, as far as I'm concerned, "pasta" is a subset of "noodles." All pasta is noodles, but there are noodles that are not pasta. The definition above clearly includes pasta, as far as I'm concerned.

Their definition of "pasta" is:

Glancing through history, this makes sense. Pasta was created when Marco Pollo went to China and discovered noodles. He brought the idea back, and tried to reproduce it with local grain. Those efforts led to pasta, a more or less new type of noodle.

In China, there are many different kinds of noodle, but the main distinctions are regional. In some areas, noodles are made with wheat flour, as they are in Italy (although the Italians use Semolina, which, IIRC, is a variety of wheat native to the area). Lo Mein noodles, for example, are very similar to spaghetti. In other areas, the most common grain is rice, and in those regions, you see rice noodles. Chow Mein noodles, glass noodles, etc.

In all cases, the idea is the same. It's just a matter of using rice or different kinds of wheat to make the flour.

So, Lo Mein, Chow Fun, Chow Mein, Spaghetti, Linguini, etc etc... All are noodles. Pasta are Italian-style noodles. Chinese noodles are an equally large subset, which includes rice noodles as well as some more pasta-like varieties.

Like I said, I don't know why the meaning is different in the UK than in the US and Canada, but I wonder if the change this time was made on the UK side.

Paul

This leads me to wonder whether we also have different definitions of 'gelatin'. Over here, gelatin is powder (made from bones) which comes in little packets. You mix it with water, which produces a spongy goo, and then you add it to things to make them gel (ie to fruit juice to produce a jelly, or to eggs and cream to produce a cold mousse).

Yvonne
(keeping out of the pasta/noodle debate <g>)

We call that 'gelatin', too. Unflavored gelatin, to be exact.

- Vicki

I'm with Paul on the noodle/pasta issue. Noodles are things made out of flour paste; pasta is a subset of noodles, with Italian origins.

Oxford has this as the entry for "noodle": "A thin strip or ring of pasta served in soup, with a sauce, etc." (Though I'm not sure where that leaves shell noodles. )

This may be more of a Midwestern thing, but when someone says noodles, egg noodles are what come to mind first. I grew up eating them with butter or gravy and meatballs. Asian food comes to mind second.

I consider pasta either macaroni or spaghetti-type stuff -- linguini, angel-hair, etc. Pretty much anything Italian as opposed to Asian noodles.

Okay, I can't keep quiet.


No way! That's just a legend. And to prove it I looked for dates (and found many other interesting things).

Marco Polo came back from China in 1292, but there's document dated 1244 written by a doctor from Bergamo (a town near Milan) where he tells one of his patients that in order to get well he doesn't have to eat pasta ( Non debes comedare aliquo frutamine neque de carne, bovina nec de sicca neque de pasta lissa nec de caulis ).

This alone shows you that if in 1244 people were eating pasta in Italy, Marco Polo can't be considered the person who introduced it if he came back from China almost fifty years later.

As for pasta itself, its name comes from ancient greek (paste, I think...but Anna can correct me ) which means "a mix of flour and water". The Romans used this food too, in fact in De re coquinaria libri Apicius gives the recipe for a làgana pie, which is basically what we now call lasagne (and we're talking 200 A.D.).

Some even say Marco Polo introduced spaghetti (if not really pasta), but that's not true either. (sorry, Paul )

In fact spaghetti were probably invented in Sicily in a little town called Trabìa. There are references to a dish that looked like very thin stripes of a dough made of flour and water called itriyya. That's actually an Arabic name (Sicily was ruled by Arabs) and even today some Sicilians call spaghetti vermicelli di Tria.

As for Dictionary.com's definition of noodle (A narrow, ribbonlike strip of dried dough, usually made of flour, eggs, and water.), well, this makes me think of tagliatelle more than anything else. And in fact tagliolini, tagliatelle, fettuccine, etc. are usually made with eggs.

On the other hand, pasta is made only with durum wheat semolina [Triticum durum], whereas "noodles" are made with wheat [Triticum vulgare] and usually eggs.

Okay, that's probably more than you ever wanted to know about pasta. Sorry it got so long.

As for marinara sauce, what Yvonne said.

Elena

In Hebrew, we call noodles itriyot (singular, itriyya).

Julie

I've wondered for a long time how I could pull that off, too! When I decide to take a bath instead of a shower, I always take a book and a drink along. I just keep the hand with the book out of the water, and there's always a towel hanging nearby to dry my other hand. One thing I have learned-- it's probably not a good idea to turn on the jets unless you're going to hold the book way up, or the spray'll get it. :p

I've always called 'em all noodles, too-- pasta and noodles are pretty interchangeable around here, although I too tend to call the Italian noodles "pasta", which leaves us with the other category, Chinese noodles. (Then you've got couscous, your Moroccan... um, noodle? Or pasta? Actually, in order to get my 6 y.o. to eat couscous, we call it "mini noodles." Whatever works, right? :p )

I've never seen an electric kettle, either-- although they're a standard kitchen appliance in most of the England-set books I've ever read. I've seen coffee machines with hot water spigots in (7-11 type) gas stations and cafeterias, but have never seen anything but stovetop teapots in people's houses. Interesting, really, because those same houses all use electric coffee pots-- I guess it's because tea isn't the national drink over here that it is in the UK, huh? That so few people use electric kettles, I mean.

Yeah, it's pretty funny, isn't it, that in the US we use euphemisms for bathrooms, such as "restroom" or "washroom" (a lot of elderly folks use the latter). And yet, we have commercials that discuss diarrhea and tampons and personal lubricants, etc., in an awful lot of detail...

~Toc

Ah, but that doesn't explain why we find electric kettles all over the place here in France. Tea is certainly not a national drink here.

Kaethel

Vicki...oddly enough, the last deodorant commercial I remember had Randy Johnson (a big time baseball pitcher) throwing dodge balls at some poor guys. Guess it was supposed to parallel the strength of the deodorant against...well...odor. :rolleyes:

As for tea, I don't drink it much myself, but I know that my friend's dad (of Arab decent, though I'm not sure if that's why ) *EATS* his tea bag! Blech!

Totally OT, but I *had* to comment

Julie?! Having trouble getting up?!?! No!! /me ducks and runs...

Sara

Well, we use our kettles for a lot more than just making tea. An electric kettle heats up water much faster than heating it on the stove, you see, so we use a kettle whenever we want hot drinking water quickly. For example, I boil the kettle and then pour the contents into a pan on the stove in which I'm going to cook my rice or potatoees. Last week, my hot tap broke in the kitchen, so I was boiling water in the kettle for doing the washing up. If I want to make stock with a stock cube, I boil the water in the kettle. And so on. Kettles are great for impatient people.

Yvonne

Ok folcs... About the pasta/noodle thing... calm down, archaeologist here.

Here's how it goes. You get some grass seeds, hit them with a big stone until they're powder, mix them with something to bind them (egg/water/milk/I don't know I buy mine in a packet), make the mix into shapes, then drop them in a pan of boiling water.

It's not exactly rocket science, or baked alaska. Probably eaten way before 1200-whenever, the world over (Sorry El).

The technical term is independant invention. The idea that two people (or more) can come up with the same idea in different places, even in different times, without coming into contact with each other.

Don't ask me about the lingustics of the pasta/noodle stuff though... I call it pasta unless it says noodles on the packet, in which case I use it in stir-fry.

Helga

/me nods sagely. Yup. I use mine for making cupasoup. Oh, and pot noodles. Yes, I know. I like them, okay? :rolleyes:

LabRat (still finding interesting things to read instead of going to bed like she was supposed to twenty minutes back...)

Well, I didn't go back to the beginning of this thread, but I thought I would throw in some thoughts. I liked the kettles in the Australian/NZ/English/Scottish hotels so much, I bought a Krups for home and have it next to the coffee pot. My Irish descended family always used a kettle on the stove, but the electric kettle is so much faster and doesn't waste heat heating the kitchen.
Purists die, but we use tea bags. And artifcial sweetner.
Spaghetti sauce is composed of tomatoe paste (or sauce) and water and spices. I put ground meat in my sauce (not meatballs), but you don't have to.
All you want to know about pasta can be found here: http://www.ilovepasta.org/shapes.html
Jello is a brand of gelatin that sets up when refrigerated and comes in fruit flavors. There is a gelatin drink to strengthen bones and make joints flexible that comes unflavored and in orange flavor.
Jam or jelly are fruit preserves. They even come sugar-free (yay Smuckers!)
Nowhere in the US can you get clotted cream unless it is at a British festival. Only sweetned whipped cream is available. I had clotted cream in Cornwall and it was heaven.
American bacon is not nearly as good as Canadian or English bacon.
Polenta is a porridge made from corn.

Artemis

Had to chime in on these two.

Hey, I faintly resemble that remark! As a kid I used to put Ketchup on my Cottage Cheese, just to drive my Dad nuts. He also hated strawberry milk. He grew up on a dairy farm and apparently sometimes the cows would have an ulcer in their udder which would cause it to turn pink...

Paul, if I had read your comment about Maple Syrup on Cottage Cheese before going on Atkins, I would have definitely tried it.

The other...
Not as much anymore, but the reason for putting it on the forearm was because up until recently, it was taboo to show the armpit.

James, who must say that he is totally enjoying this thread! I am learning all kinds of interesting triva...

Hmmm... wonder where "cloakroom" came from... anybody know?

Wendy, Kaethel, Yvonne, and Labrat have convinced me that I want an electric kettle, too!! Right now! Or at least, really soon. Fast is good (at least when it pertains to hot water!).


Lab, what's a pot noodle? Is it what we call "dumplings"?

So if Wendy had moved to the US instead of Canada, she'd have to import it? (Wendy, do you like clotted cream? Since I just used you as an example?)

Oh, ick! <insert sickly green, nauseous-looking graemlin here>

~Toc

It's a UK institution and fast food meal, Toc. It's a plastic pot containing 'dehydrated mixture of wide noodles, textured soya pieces, and vegetables, available impregnated with a variety of seasoning powders (Beef and Tomato, Chicken and Sweetcorn) and accompanied by a sachet of sauce (Soy, tomato, curry.' You tear off the foil top, fill with boiling water from the kettle, stir, add the sauce, and, hey presto, a hot meal ready to be eaten.

I actually only love the beef and tomato flavour, I have to say. :p And having just read the above description, I'm wondering why I like even that. I won't tell you what Stuart calls them, but it's pretty gross.

They were first introduced in 1979, IIRC, and have a very bad press. They were satirized on TV comedy shows and were generally given the reputation of only being eaten by very, very sad people who didn't have a life and students who couldn't afford to eat better. A website I found said they were a 'Raman-style snack' if that helps. No idea what Raman is.

The current ad campaign for Pot Noodles actually captitalises on this reputation, showing people being ashamed of the fact that they can't resist eating them.

And in recent years they've expanded the range with things like Pot Snack, Pot Rice and so on.

Dave Lister (of Red Dwarf fame) maintains that Pot Noodles don't qualify as foodstuffs.

LabRat

Oh, I think that's overstating the case. He *would* have eaten the Pot Noodle eventually - he just preferred to eat the dogfood first...

And Ramen noodles are the thin, squiggly, dried Chinese noodles that you revitalise with boiling water for a couple of minutes before tossing them in the stir-fry.

Mere

I wonder if they meant Ramen. Ramen noodles are a package of packed wavy noodles with a packet of seasonings, that comes in a variety of flavors . Boil water, throw the noodles in, boil for 3 minutes, add the packet of seasoning, and it's done. Quick, easy, and the perfect food for college students, since right now I think they're selling 8 packages for 1 dollar.

I ate them a lot as a kid, since they were so easy to make. Now, I love the smell, but the taste isn't so appealing. *blech*

Okay, I've been reading this topic with much interest, but haven't contributed at all because in Singapore, we use a mixture of both UK and US words. UK because it's traditional, but certainly lots of US words have filtered into our speech and writing as we watch more US television productions.

Actually, that's not what Ramen is. Ramen is a Japanese term for a specific type of noodles, the Chinese equivalent being "La Mian". Basically, you start with a wheat dough. At least, I think it's wheat. It could be some other grain. The chef works on the dough, kneads it, thumps on it, pulls it so it stretches (hence the term La Mian "To pull on the dough"), and twists it. After working on the dough for some time, it breakes apart and begins to form numerous noodles about 0.3 cm in diameter. That is La Mian, or using its Japanese term, Ramen. The texture of the noodles is tougher and more chewy than normal noodles, because of all that kneading. Good chefs don't use a machine to crank out their ramen. Unlike pasta, I think, which is cranked out using a machines, isn't it? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Traditional Japanese ramen is served in a rich broth that's made with pork ribs, and the broth is simmered hours and hours, so much so that the soup turns milky white. It takes a lot of work and skill to produce a bowl of good ramen. A good bowl of ramen is a treat fit for kings and queens, or as Alton Brown would say, Good Eats.

There is a brand of instant noodles called "Ramen". I think that's what Karen's refering to. There are tons and tons of brands of instant noodles, and they come in compact packets and are wavy. Instant noodles are extremely unhealthy, but they are very popular because they are so tasty and convenient. There are 2 things you can do if you want to up the health value of those noodles. 1) Boil a saucepan full of water, put the noodles in and let the noodles loosen into a mess of... well.. noodles. Then *pour* the water away. Yep. If you want to use the seasoning, boil a smaller batch of fresh water and use that. Do *not* use the water that noodles were boiling in. This may be an urban myth, but apparently wax is used to keep the noodles in its compact shape. 2) Better still, ditch the seasoning. Just reading the contents of the seasoning should be enough for you to lose all appetite. There are chemicals in there that have been proven to be carcinogenic.

Almost all forms of Chinese noodles that are available in the market come in the dehydrated form. You hydrate it (as you would with pasta) and either use it as stir fry, as Meredith mentions, or serve it in a stock/broth/soup. But no, they are not ramen.

EDIT: This is a response to Wendy's post that's below.... There are 2 types of instant noodles, the type when you end up with noodles in soup, and the type that Wendy's ddescribed below. Both are available in North America, if you know where to look. My gut feeling is that the soupy version is more commonly seen in N.America though.


metwin1

Janet said:

Well, I really don't know how people manage without them! I'm always amazed to see people boiling water in the microwave instead of using a kettle - kettles boil more accurately and you can boil more water at a time.

Amazon.com sells electric kettles - this one is a good make, cordless, with a sealed element.

For those of you not used to electric kettles, here's a few more features to ponder: automatic shut-off once it's boiled (no need to wait and watch), a hinged lid which is easy to open and close with one hand, and the better ones also have built-in water filters.

Hate clotted cream! I do like whipped cream, however. Not the stuff out of cans - yuck! - but fresh cream, whipped.

Oh, as for Ramen noodles (US-style): they do exist in the UK, but they're cooked differently. From talking to Americans, and from reading the instructions on the packs here, it seems that they're supposed to be made with lots of water, so that the result is like soup. In the UK, they're made with just enough water to soften the noodles: all the water is absorbed once they're cooked. And then they're served as a side dish. Interesting differences!


Wendy

I've had them both ways... both with a lot of water (good with Ritz (buttery) crackers) and with no or little water at all. Still can't eat them, though.

I don't know how people manage without electric kettles at all. Then again, I'm sure North Americans drink their water straight from the tap. I always boil my tap water before using it as drinking water. But it's a matter of taste. To me, boiled water just tastes less "chemical-ly". Only the plants get their water straight from the tap.

Then again, I also like tea, which prabably also explains the fondness for my kettle. Although I've never quite looked at tea in the same way after reading George Mikes' "How to be an Alien".

--meclone2--

I have never seen an electric tea kettle. Then again, I'd never seen a tea kettle at ALL until I moved into my apartment. I don't drink anything hot anyway. Iced Coffee, Iced tea, water either bottled or that's gone through the purifier (NEVER right from the tap! But I know people who do drink right from that tap).

And I don't like Raman, but we always at them as noodles, not as soup. But I know you can make them as soup. If I remember a friend of mine actually ate the ramen dry. I don't like it and I don't care if they are 10/$1. LOL.

- Laura

, but I like couscous much better! Now, see, there's an example of a really good advertising agency! Take that negative publicity and turn it to your advantage, after all!
Yep, most of the time-- although lots of people have those water cooler machine thingies that use those big jugs of water upended into the top, and that keep the water nice and cold-- and lots more just buy their drinking water by the case.

Oh, yeah, and the whole "pot" thing, is, I think, pretty different here in the US versus in the UK. You guys call any little tub a pot, right? When I hear the word "pot" I think of those big metal pots ("saucepans") you cook stuff in on the stove-- little ones for soup and couscous, big ones for noodles and green beans (etc). (Hence my thinking pot noodles might be dumpllings!) Our paints come in paint jars, our makeup comes in tubs or jars or bottles or containers, and our microwave individual meals come in little plastic containers (or we might say something like, "when you finish that mac and cheese, put the package in the recycling bin").

~Toc

Here's my mega-post with question and comments from the start of the thread. (James just said, "Oy!" Wonder what he means by that. Anywho...)

Compare and contrast are not the same thing. Compare points out similarities; contrast points out differances.

A question about the UK term "call." I'd been told that Dominoes changed their slogan, "One call does it all," when advertising in the UK, because call in the UK referred to a ... ahem... visit from a prostitute. True? Or is somebody yanking my chain?

My favorite US road sign is, "Cross traffic does not stop," as I tend to drive poorly when I'm angry, too.

In my neck of the woods (St. Louis), junior highs are being phased out. The older schools had 7th and 8th grades togethor (rarely 9th anymore). About 15 or 20 years ago they started replacing them with middle schools (6th, 7th, and 8th grades.)

Cheese curds aqre a yummy, albeit regional, favorite. Of course, I come from a cheese curd kind of background. Once while we were waiting for a funeral to begin, my cousin withdrew a large stash of cheese from the front pocket of his bib overalls and offered it around to the other mourners at the church.

(Oh, yeah. Dad says, "Uf da," all the time. He only says, "Yeah, sure. You betcha'," when he's joking, though.)

There are 7-11s in the Midwest. Lots and lots of 7-11s in St. Louis. (Well, I suppose they're starting to be edged out by QTs, anymore. But I grew up in 7-11 heaven.)

And my own personal bathroom story. We moved here from Oshkosh, Wisconsin, 30+ years ago when I was just a tadpole. Just after arriving, my mom asked a passerby, "Where's the bubbler?" She was chagrined to follow the directions and find herself at the men's room. Did he think she wanted to use the urinal? (For all those who've never lived in dear--may I even say quaint--Oshkosh, a bubbler is a drinking fountain. Hmm... I bet it has a different name in the UK, not to mention Canada and Australia.)

Elisabeth
who adds up all her 2 cents worth to around 14 cents plus tax

(Wendy, Woot! on becoming bilingual)

Hi Elisabeth

Just had to respond...

ROFLMAO!!! Give me good old pear crumble or cherry pie any day!

Hmmm... yes, 'pot' is a multi-purpose word, I think. Plant-pot, yoghurt-pot, pot noodle, cooking pot (though there we usually use 'saucepan'), marijuana... The one thing we 'don't talk about is 'pot pie' - I remember asking in bemusement what a 'chicken pot pie' was (is it a pie made in a saucepan? ) and realised that it was just an ordinary chicken pie. Weird!


Wendy

The only ads I've ever seen for Dominos is during The Simpsons on SKY ONE, because they're a sponsor. Despite this, and the fact that sometimes it appears that The Simpsons is the only show that SKY ONE has in its catalogue, I haven't the first dashed idea what their slogan is either...

Ah...the power of advertising...


LabRat

That's ok, at least you remember Pot Noodles' hook!

)... no equivalent to pot noodle (other than the previously discussed Ramen Noodles), same, and same. Pot pies-- staple of my husband's diet!

~Toc

Okay, someone convinced me to go to Boston Market to get a pot pie for dinner!

I've heard about "meat pies". My roommate tried a kosher one when she had dinner in Australia at her boyfriend's house. From the way she talked, it seriously scared me. I am kind of curious, what is a meat pia? If it is like a pot pie (I only eat chicken), what are they like? To me, the word pie has the connotation of being a sweet desert -- i.e. cherry, apple, chocolate, etc.

- Laura

On the European side of the Atlantic, Laura, a pie can be savoury or sweet. A meat pie would usually be with beef, but equally could be with lamb - but you'd rarely see something advertised as simply a 'meat pie'. You can have a steak and kidney pie, a beef and onion pie, a lamb and gravy pie, a chicken and mushroom pie, and so on. These can be large (serves 3-4) or individual. If you visit a fish and chip shop in the UK, an alternative to fish is a pie.

And, yes, of course we also have apple, cherry, rhubarb, blackberry and so on pies.

A 'pot pie', however, means nothing to us and sounds weird. I really did think that it was made in a saucepan! (Which reminds me: I still haven't figured out what a 'pot roast' is...)

Oh, and one further addition on 'pies': shepherd's and cottage pies are completely different. No pastry; they're covered in mashed potato, which can be cheesy or not. One is made with minced (US: ground) beef, the other with lamb. And I can never remember which is which!


Wendy

Electric kettles: you have to remember that the US has 110 volt mains, rather than 220/240 volt. Half the voltage, a quarter of the power - it'll take four times as long to boil your kettle. (Unless you double the current, which causes its own problems.)

Laura - a pie is normally any filling wrapped in pastry, with the exceptions Wendy mentioned.

And, Wendy... you can't remember whether shepherds would make their pie with beef or lamb?

Mere

Good point on the kettle - I had been wondering, with others, why the Americans hadn't embraced this shiny, modern labour-saving device along with all the others. But this explains it.

LabRat

Everyone here uses an electric kettle. I can’t imagine not having one.

From LabRat’s description, ‘pot noodles’ are what we call ‘2 minute noodles’. Pull back the lid, add boiling water, stir and in 2 minutes they’re ready to eat.

Our pies are exactly the same as Wendy stated. They can be savoury or sweet. One of my favourite desserts is apricot pie.

Dominos is quite a big takeaway pizza chain here. They advertise extensively on all media. And call girls are also prostitutes here, but they are usually referred to as hookers.

Tricia

And I had been wondering why everyone else would wait forever for water to boil in an electric kettle, when they could have a cup of boiling water in less than a minute in their microwave! Yes, the difference in voltage does explain things!

- Vicki

Since someone asked what a pot pie was.. A pot pie is a pastry filled with meat, veggies, and some type of sauce, usually something like gravy. They can be made either as individual portions, or family size. They're cooked in a pie dish, just like a regular pie. I don't know where the "pot" comes in at, though.

Pot roast is usually some type of roast cut (rump roast, flank roast) that's actually made in a pot, on the stove top instead of being baked/roasted/broiled. My dad used to make it in his cast-iron pot.. brown the top and bottom, and then boil it for about 3 hours until it's fully cooked, nice and juicy. The leftover liquid is used to make gravy. When made right, it's usually pretty good.

Mmmm, pot roast! I love pot roast. And yes, it is basically made just as Karen says, although it is not so much boiled as simmered until cooked. When done properly, it is so tender you don't even need a knife to cut it - the meat just falls apart. Delicious!

- Vicki

Just a few random food-related additions...

James said:

I forgot about this. I've been diabetic for more than half my life. I almost never have real maple syrup. There are several companies who make sugar-free approximations. Many of them, as far as I'm concerned, are little more than artificial sugar water, but there are a couple good brands out there. Carey's is good as well as one or two others, but, IMHO, Smucker's is the best. The sugar-free syrups are smoother in texture than pure maple syrup and, of course, lack that peculiar bite which is unique to maple sugar. The latter is a good thing as far as I'm concerned, but is completely unforgivable according to my brother-in-law. Depends on your tastes, I guess.

About Shepherd's Pie -- In the US, we don't really eat that much lamb. For some reason, we don't use the term "Cottage Pie" here, either. Possibly marketing reasons. The only popular "cottage" food we have here is cottage cheese. Not something you want associated with Shepherd's Pie. So, Shepherd's Pie here is generally made with beef.

Dictionary.com has the following definitions:

In both definitions, they decline to pin down a specific type of meat.

Webster's online lists much the same definition for Shepherd's Pie, but says this about Cottage Pie:

As for pot pies, I'm not certain, but I believe the term refers to the fact that the pie's filling is stewed together in a simgle pot before being put into the crust and baked. Another, less likely, possibility is that, since the pies are traditionally large and deep (individual portion pot pies are a relatively new thing), they might once have been baked inside of a pot instead of a pie pan.

I did stumble on this link in my attempts to resolve the pot pie question. It's all about the pasty, including recipies, history, quotes, and interviews.

As for water, microwaving is the most efficient means of heating it that I know. It's quick and effective. There are, however, two main problems with doing so.

First, microwaves don't heat evenly, so you need to be sure to stir any liquids you microwave. Most people know that these days, but Mom's very careful about warning us. Back in the early days of microwaves, she heated up baby bottles in the microwave. She felt the formula in the bottle, and it seemed good. What she didn't realize is that the microwave had created hot spots, so that the milk the baby was getting would suddenly turn from comfortably warm to scaldingly hot. Oops. Luckily, we all turned out okay anyway.

Second, in some rare cases, small pockets of steam can get trapped inside tiny nooks formed by uneven container walls (clay mugs, for example). They can become superheated, and, when you begin to stir the water, they can then literally explode out. A friend of a friend was seriously scalded in this way. There's a more detailed explanation on Snopes.

Back on topic... a minor interesting point came up on IRC last night. Consider these two sentences:

What else could I possibly have meant?

What else could I have possibly meant?

I don't want to speak for the whole country on this one, but I'd use either, more or less interchangably. It depends on context and emphasis. I think. Generally, I'd tend towards "have possibly." US FoLCs, which would you use?

I'm told that only "possibly have" is used in UK English. Is that right?

Does the answer change if the sentence is different?

What could she possibly have meant by that?
What could she have possibly meant by that?

What do you think that could have possibly meant?
What do you think that could possibly have meant?

Could that possibly have been more awkward?
Could that have possibly been more awkward?

Now I'm getting tired and confused. I'm not sure what I'd say where. Anyone else?

Paul

Believe it or not, Paul, some of that last little bit did actually make some sense to me because I can see tiniest shadings of different meanings. A lot of it depends, though, on inflection. Let me see if I can wrap my brain around it enough to explain.

First, I would tend to say:
What else could I have possibly meant?

It just seems to roll off my tongue more easily.

As for the other examples you use - in the first one, I can see a slight difference in meaning if the inflection is changed as well as the order of the words. And I would change the order along with the inflection:

What could she possibly have meant by that?
For me, this sentence implies incredulity and sarcasm. She said something. It was pretty clear what she meant. There is no way to misconstrue it. So, What could she possibly have meant by that? expresses confirmation of the original interpretation.

What could she have possibly meant by that?
For me, this sentence asks a serious question. I'm confused. What was she trying to say? No sarcasm implied, but genuine uncertainty.

As for the other two examples, I would always go with "have possibly" so I'm guessing that confirms my US-ishness.

Lynn

I know. A post after a post. But this is unrelated to the last, so I figured it deserved its own box.

I have certain difficulties using some adverbs because they don't sound right to my ears. In other words, I don't think I use them in every-day speech, so when I write them, they just seem awkward.

For example:
"Clark, what are you doing?" Lois asked hurriedly. "We need to get to work before we're late!"

I cannot for the life of me make hurriedly roll off my tongue.

Same thing with the word easier when used in certain ways. I can't read this without wanting to change it:
"Well," said Clark, "it just seems that when you help me, the suit comes off easier."
"Well," said Clark, "it just seems that when you help me, the suit comes off more easily."

Is this just a weird Lynn-issue or is it something else?

Lynn

You are not the only one. I agree with you with those two things that you brought up Lynn.

EDIT -- OH MY GOODNESS! Last time I looked at this thread it was no were near this high! One off 200. Who shall it be?........

EDIT -- Re: Ramen/instant noodles. My grandma (she's Japanese) thought the stuff they sold in pkgs where 'candy'. Full of bads she says. I know the ones in pkgs as opposed to the real stuff that isn't massed produced rocks. I know too much of anything is bad for you, but I love the ones that you fry in a pan and you add seaweed and a power. BAM tons of calories but MUHAHA does it taste devine. I cannot remember the name. Sigh. The Korean ones blow me off my seat. Too hot.

As the person who expressed opinions on UK English on IRC...

Both of those are *possible* in UK English. The first sentence strongly emphasises the "possibly"; the second almost completely de-emphasises it. As a writer, my feeling is that in the second sentence, the "possibly" should just be dropped, since it's not pulling its weight. For that reason, the second sentence sounds odd to me, and I'd only use the first.

I certainly feel that the first sentence is the one that trips more easily off the tongue.

Mere

I love my electic kettle for tea water!
True. But with an automatic off, the water still boils and waits for you to come back. It's only a few minutes more. So 110 isn't that much longer than 220. A benefit of 110 volts is that we don't have circuit breakers on every line as a safety measure. We have circuit breakers for sections of the house.
As to pot noodles, they're sold here in the US as "Cup of Noodles" (dessicated noodles with seasonings in a little packet) or Top Ramen, which comes instant (boiled water poured into styrofoam cup) or boil-on the stove. They were lifesavers in the office when you could have a hot meal with your tea water pot. The main objection as I understood it was that they are high in salt content and thus not good for you.
Also at McDonalds in Hawaii you can get Saimin there with your meal. It's a noodle-based soup oriental style and very good. Look here: http://www.aloha-hawaii.com/dining/saimin/

Artemis

Oh they are definitely of no nutritional value whatsoever. <G> Even if you discount high salt content. Which is why I always feel guilty when I put them on the shopping list. (Only do that every so often though.)

LabRat

On the voltage/kettle debate, I was dismayed to discover that my dual voltage travel hairdryer delivers no more than a pathetic puff of air when plugged into a Canadian power socket. Took me about 4 times longer than it usually does to get my hair dry! I wonder whether a hairdryer designed for the lower voltage would somehow manage to be more efficient - any thoughts?

Yvonne

This discussion made me hungry for pot noodles, so I just had some for lunch. It was Albertson's (think Sainsbury's) Ramen Noodle Soup in beef flavor. But by the time it steeped in the cup (3 min), it wasn't soup, it was flavored noodles. Then I remembered I always added more hot water halfway through to make it a soup. Oh, and my electric tea pot heats a full pot in less than a minute.
As to hairdryers, it's the watts that count. Mine is 1500 watts, but not dual voltage. I remember burning up a non-dual voltage dryer on my first trip to London (England) some 20 years ago. So I think the fan isn't going to blow as hard going from 220 V to 110 V. On the cruise ship we were just on (built in Germany for Star Cruises) there was one 110 outlet, but it had a 500 watt maximum limit. We were warned some hairdryers would blow the circuits on the ship. So I dried my hair by going outside on the balcony (O.K. I just had to sneak in the fact we had a balcony stateroom). Anyway, the bottom line is that I think dual voltage is just going to give less air blow. The option would be to buy a dedicated one for 110 volts and if you travel enough it might be worth it. They are quite cheap here.

Artemis

ok I'm coming really late to the convo and I've only read the last three pages. I was suprised to discover Americans don't use electric kettles, and the voltage argument just isn't working for me. Why not just design them with step up transformers?

ok so a couple of things:
'swim suits' I call bathers, swimmers or even cozzies.

Kae, that pic of the chips and mushy peas nearly made me puke

and why would anyone put cream on their scones before jam? And when we're talking scones, you mean the food made from self-raising flour, butter and milk right? I wouldn't consider them anything like crumpets.

Also, I've often wondered why americans put cream in their coffee? I only ever have milk in coffee, adding cream just seams like adding fat for no reason. Again with the cream thing, I have no idea what clotted cream is. I've only ever had whipped cream (u whip it yourself, the stuff from the can is sick and wrong ) or thickened cream.

I just had to butt in. Ramen used to be a staple of family dinners when I was a kid and had softball practice in the evenings (or my brother had baseball). It's quick and easy and all that. We often had it with sandwiches. And we made it the "American" way, keeping the water and making soup out of it. It's still one of my favorite kinds of soup, despite everything.

My husband, when he was in school, ate a lot of the stuff, but he basically skipped all the steps. He ate the noodles raw out of the package. Scary, isn't it? But it was apparently one of the main staples of his diet for a few years. It's a wonder he's still around to tell about it.

What about peanut butter and banana sandwiches, or bologne and relish sandwiches?

Hi FM:
They do. In this case a step-down transformer from 220v to 110v. But you don't get something for nothing. Again, its the watts, a measure of the energy going into the hairdryer. Watts = Volts x Amps. A hairdryer basically coverts electric energy to evaporation energy (airblowing plus heat). So in the U.S. we have 110 volts, which is half the volts in the UK. You could compensate by increasing the current, the amps, but we don't because high amps are dangerous. So Yvonne's hairdryer had less energy going into it in Canada than it did in the UK, thus the hair took longer to dry. Things are a little more complex with regard to the fact it's an AC circuit and the exact coil design in the hairdryer.

Artemis

Artemis, I think we got our wires crossed I was referring to the kettles. A kettle uses your typical heating element (conductor) which uses electrical resistance to heat the water. The more current you pass through the element the hotter it gets. So the amount of time it takes to heat would depend on the amount of current, the resistance of the conductor and the duration of current flow.
If it takes longer to heat water using 110V wouldn’t that same argument apply to the any other appliance? It’s just a matter of conversion. The reason why Yvonne’s hair dryer was so pathetic using 110V was because it wasn’t designed for it, so if you design an appliance to use 110V you can get the same results.
BTW Australia uses 240V, 50Hz.

FM:
Yeah, same arguement with the kettles. Supposedly my Krups should take longer with 110V at 60 Hz to heat the water, but I can't see that it does. The thing is that a given appliance design is optimized for the country it is built for. When you have the travel variety of anything it won't perform as well when you take it to countries using the other system. Yvonne's hairdryer was optimized for the UK and didn't perform as well at the lower voltage. Hot water kettles are not very common in the US. Coffee pots are ubiquitous. You can make a tea pot by throwing out the coffee perculator hardware before the first use, by my Krups was designed as a tea pot and that is very new here.

Artemis

I got this in today's New York Times headlines email, and just had to share... Excerpt from the article itself:
Mere

So can any of you language experts out there help me with a UK cooking term ?

I have some recipes from my Scottish Grannie, and the one for shortbread cookies calls for
castor sugar.

What the heck is that ?
Is it the fine powdered sugar that we call icing sugar ? Or something else ?

Thanks

Allie

Hi Allie, and welcome to the boards!

Caster sugar isn't icing sugar, but it is a very fine sugar, and according to a Google search it is called 'superfine sugar' in the US.

See here and here for help with understanding what caster/superfine sugar is and where to find it.


Wendy