Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related UK versus US English: Smackdown 2004

Vicki, "quite" is a thoroughly ambiguous word. Over here it either means "completely" (quite right, quite safe, quite sure, quite splendid) or "somewhat" (quite nice, quite soon).

The adjective usually determines which meaning it has, but occasionally it depends on intonation and/or context. "Well... I was quite pleased with his results overall, but I think he should have done better in Maths" vs. "You thought it was horrible? Actually, I was quite pleased with it!"

I gather the US meaning is normally "very" - fairly close to our "completely".

Mere

Got it! Thanks, Mere.

Another question, this time for Labrat. Trying not to give too much away incase anyone reading this hasn't read your latest story (which I doubt but you never know):

I loved what Lois wrote, but I was a bit surprised to see the middle letter. I would have expected a +. So, was this a UK thing? A 'your neck of the woods' thing? Something you invented? OR conversly, you Americans out there, have you all seen this before and it's just me who hasn't?

- Vicki

Vicki - I know exactly what you are saying. If I had been Lois, I would have used a "+" instead of an "L". At the time I was reading this, it never occurred to me that there might be a US/UK thing going on. I just figured Lab wrote it that way because...just because <g>. But now that you mention it, Lab, any special reason or is that just the way it came out?

On the present/gift thing...after thinking about it, I realized that I tend to use "present" when speaking about a specific event/holiday. So I'd say "Christmas present" or "birthday present". I'd use "gift" when not attached to an event. So for example, I'd say/write the following:
"How did your friend like her birthday present?"
"I need to buy a gift for my friend's birthday."

I'm going to ask this to clear up my complete ignorance. Do I have this right? Correct me where I've made mistakes:

Scotland plus Wales plus England plus Northern Ireland make up the entity of the United Kingdom.

Scotland plus Wales plus England make up the entity of Britian. (??) And is Great Britain synonomous with Britian?

It is Ok to call someone from Scotland "Scottish" or "from the UK" but definitely wrong to call someone from Scotland "English". (A little side note here: my mother-in-law, who has Scottish ancestors, calls people from Scotland "scotch" and it nearly makes me purple from frustration. I have to bite my tongue to keep from screaming at her "scotch is a drink, not a person!!")

It is OK to call someone from England "English" or "from the UK".

As for the United States, if someone asks me where I'm from, I say the US. For some reason, "America" seems antiquated, like something from the Revolutionary War age. But even so, I'm pretty darn sure the official name of my country is The United States of America.

I know this isn't a grammar thing, but I'd love to have the UK folks explain to me the "shire" system. For example, is Devonshire a county? A region? A township?

This is so interesting!!!

Lynn

Re. the:

thing, the way I understood it (I think from a brief description in the story before we actually saw what Lois had written) is that Lois actually drew a heart. And, since hearts aren't characters which can be presented in standard ASCII, Rat just used L. Now, I may be completely wrong, but... well, Rat can correct me.

Lynn asked:
A shire is a county. Britain (and Ireland) is divided up into counties, which are units of local government and also regional identity. They're larger, I believe, than US counties. A shire/county will have its own elected councillors, who set local taxes and organise local services, including police, fire service, ambulance service, schools, refuse collection, social services, child protection, road maintenance... you name it. All within a national framework of minimum standards. And then towns within each county have their own town councils, to which there is more devolution of services and local taxation.

(I am generalising here quite a bit; for example, I'm ignoring unitary authorities, in case any UKer points that out! ).

Some counties are called shires: Yorkshire, Devonshire, Leicestershire, Buckinghamshire Staffordshire (where I used to work), Shropshire, Cheshire (where I used to live), and others. And others are called counties; some use 'county' in the name - eg Co. Durham - and some don't - eg Kent, Middlesex, Northumberland.

I'm sure that there is a historical explanation for the use of 'shire' rather than 'county', and I'm equally sure that someone will post it - but here's the administrative explanation anyway.

As for regional identity, it's very strong in some areas. You ask a Yorkshireman where he's from, and he will say Yorkshire before he will say England or Britain.

Oh, and you mention 'township', Lynn - before I moved to Canada I had never heard of 'township' outside places like poor parts of South Africa, and so my mental image of a township was of a shanty town, with makeshift housing and no amenities. But in the US and Canada there are townships everywhere. What is a 'township' in this part of the world? And why a township rather than a village or suburb or rural area?


Wendy

As a Canadian, I'm expected to spell with the UK spelling and use the US grammer (at least I think I am). But... Hey, wait a minute! What am I doing replying to a thread about spelling and grammer? I know nothing about either (isn't that why we have Beta readers? )

On the lawyer/attorney/barrister/solicitor issue, I would use those terms in the same way as Gerry's husband. If asked what I do for a living, I'd say I'm a lawyer (with my head bent and muttering the word in shame of course ). My letter head identifies me as a Barrister and Solicitor, although most of my work at the moment is barrister's work (court work). I would never say that I'm an Attorney. The only place I think of that I've heard it in Canada is 'Crown Attorney' which is the equivalent of the US 'District Attorney'

ML

P.S. - Wendy, I live in the Township of Ware. And I resent your implication that I live in an outback, undeveloped... Oh, wait. I do live in an outback, undeveloped region of the country. Well, okay then. Forget I said anything

http://www.wordorigins.org/histeng.htm

So England doesn't = Anglia EXACTLY but is an origin. It was once a part. So I can understand people's frustrations with the use of Anglia b/c well, it's not 100% of the story!

I have heard of other 'origins' too though.
Some people discuss that here at these boards.
I used to hate it when people use to say "We are going to America!" Ugh. Here we call it The States and hate it when is called America, b/c well... America as we have discussed doesnt' mean the USA per say.

I pictured a heart with LL luvs/loves CK inside. I didn't bat my eyes with the L and not a +. If I would have done it, it would have been loves or a +. I guess L is different to me!

Figure it out and sorted it out - they seem to not be perfectly the same to me. Just thought I'd add a tidbit to that.

I only know the geographical definition of a township b/c I took mapping and the early geographical changes in Canada blah blah blah in school. If my memory serves me right it is not the same as an American township or anyother country's.

A township is more of a mapping procedure. It is not a state or a province, it is more on a human level.

A township is a geographical division within a public land survey system that is defined by a square parcel of land bounded on the east and west by meridians six miles apart and by parallels to the north and south also six miles apart. This 36 square mile unit of land contains 36 sections, each being one square mile.

A township can also be a governmental subdivision, which may vary from the standard size and shape. There doesn't have to be a 'town'
In Canada, there are two basic ways in which land has been put in large scale surveys, the concession-lot system used in Eastern Canada (TWNSP is one form of a subdivision of a county), and the township-range system of Western Canada (exist only for purpose of land division started by the Dominion Land survey and are not administrative units!).

It was a way of dividing up land for the purpose of controlling all the farming and immigration that was occuring. The area where I live now was divided up during the period from 1880 to 1900.

Basically it was a big square divided into little squares and divided up again. Certain ones were allocated for the railway, the government a school and a church.

To me townships are no longer created here. If they are I'm sorry! We use municipalities to divide up areas that are not in the city, but can be populated with more than 100 people. Here we have the city of Winnipeg with muncipalities out side call, for example, Headingly.

You know what. I didn't do such a great job explaining. I'm dead tired. Try here.

Whoops, bad phonetic translation. I was trying for aye, which is also eye, so eye-ther is what I say.

This is something up with which I will not put

PJ
who may have time to actually contribute something to this thread tomorrow... or not...

Really, it's good that you said that. In good ole Alabama, home of the worst education system in the nation, everyone here says 'The Brits this' and 'The Brits that' when they're really only talking about England...so no one's ever actually explained this whole Britain, UK, England etc relationship.


I hear that constantly.

There are really only three things that make me cringe down by the Gulf of Mexico...and that's ain't, y'all, and fixin...as in, I'm fixin' to go to the store, or I'm fixin' to do my paperwork.

JD

Back in the early '70s, the NY State Chamber of Commerce launched a new tourism campaign, and hired a local graphic artist to come up with a catchy logo. Soon, cars all over the state were sporting bumper stickers with the brand new logo on them.

I clearly remember the day my father first saw the new logo. He looked at it for awhile, then asked, "What does iony mean?" We laughed and laughed, then explained the meaning of "I heart NY".

So, Wendy, you're saying you envisioned Lois writing "LL heart CK", and Lynn and I saw her drawing a large heart with "LL L CK" in it. Hmmm.... OK, Labby, not that it makes the least bit of difference as far as the story is concerned, but just out of curiousity, exactly what did Lois write on that window?

- Vicki

The "big island" made up of England, Wales and Scotland is called Great Britain. What's now called Brittany used to be called Less Britain (because it was settled by a bunch of Britons - Brittonic Celts - displaced by the Saxons who invaded England after the Romans left).

The word Britain was, as Helga said, brought back into use to describe the new political entity when England and Scotland were unified under James I, "King of Great Britain". I don't think anybody troubled, before then or since, to find a word to describe the English + Welsh together. :p The word British is variously used to mean from Great Britain (with or without the Isle of Man), from the UK (including Northern Ireland), or from the British Empire (including the colonies). I think the word Britain is also fairly elastic and sometimes means the UK.

And, Yvonne, I did like your Tittloce suggestion. Instead of Brits, we could be called... no, wait...

Back to Lynn, and shires... "shire" (scyre) was an Old English word for an administrative area of land, looked after by a shire-reeve (sheriff). "County" means the same thing but comes from French. The counties which were formed around cities or towns generally took on their names + shire: Oxford/Oxfordshire, York/Yorkshire, Lancaster/Lancashire, and so on. Other counties got a -shire just for the heck of it, and some of those have lost it again - it's just called "Devon" these days.

There's lots of fascinating - well, interesting - ok, amazingly nerdy information at this genealogy site . And there's a cool story here about Warner Brothers and its cohorts trying to assert rights over the word "shire", with a list of UK "shires" on the second page.

Townships in South Africa, by the way, were sub-urban developments for housing the non-white workforce near the cities but not actually living next to white people. They weren't a rural phenomenon at all. MLT, I don't know if that makes you feel better or worse about Wendy's confusion.

Picking up other bits and pieces...
I had the same problem with this as Paul, so it must be a Scottish/Glaswegian thing rather than general British. I'd say "too close for [comfort]", "too close to [bear]" or "[far] closer than she liked."

The solicitor at the door thing - yes, of course I know no one is suggesting itinerant lawyers drumming up custom on doorsteps, that's just the mental image I got when I first saw mention of a doorstep solicitor in a fic. (And I like it, so I'm hanging onto it, ok? It's even funnier if you have a clear picture of the classic English family solicitor, with thinning hair and half-moon spectacles, wearing dusty tweeds and clutching a leather briefcase.)

I think the equivalent sign over here to the US "No solicitors" would be "No vendors" - someone please correct me or add other variants.

Oh, another lovely word-nerdy topic: "a whole nother". I like it, actually, and use it deliberately. If "a napron" and "a norange" can be re-analysed to form "an apron" and "an orange", why can't "an other" become "a nother"? Anyway, the technical term is tmesis and it can also be seen in things like abso-bloody-lutely. (Although the latter's sometimes called an infix because the word doesn't split up completely.)

LOL on "iony", Vicki. Back when those messages became so very popular, and there had just been an outcry over the treatment of fur seals, someone produced a T-shirt with "I [club] baby seals" on it. I only knew one person brave/tasteless enough to wear it, though. And then there was "Nuke the gay baby whales for Satan"... but I digress.

That's probably long enough for one post - have we got to three pages yet?

Mere

You know, I have so much fanfic to catch up with and comment on, but I'm so glued to this thread and learning things I thought I knew! Fascinating....quoth Spock.

Sherry

Calling a Scot English or Scotch (that's a drink, dammit, not a nationality! <G>) are two guaranteed ways to have them coming at you fast with a claymore.

On the L thing. Actually, catching up on the overnight posts, I'll admit I was a little disappointed to see this issue being discussed here as it's a massive spoiler for my story.

Oh, well, at the end of the day, it's only a story and no one did it on purpose, mistakes happen, so...never mind.

Anyway, may as well answer it now <G>:

No, that's the way it's written in the UK. No +. But thanks for that little snippet of info. I've never heard of using a + until it was mentioned here.

Reading on further - okay Wendy surprised me by her reply, I have to say. <G> But all of you got me confused as I thought I'd mentioned in the story it was a heart. So I had to go back and check and realised where you might have been confused. A heart with the legend XX L YY inside it is so familiar to me, that it never occurred to me it wasn't something extremely common to anyone else. If you want a visual image, go to the part seven fdk folder where Lynn very helpfully provided one. Thanks, Lynn! <G>

With Wendy having entirely the wrong idea, I'm now beginning to wonder if XX L YY (XX loves YY) is something more Scottish than generally UK. And now I'm intrigued. Any other non-Scottish UKers who used to chalk this configuration on pavements and walls when they were kids? <G> And if you didn't use L, what did you use? That American +?


LabRat

My apologies, Lab, since I am the one who brought the subject up. Although I did originally try to word it in a way that wouldn't give too much away, I confess that the conversation rapidly turned into, as you say, a major spoiler.

Please accept my apologies.

- Vicki (feeling very contrite at the moment)

I am American, so Lab isn't looking for my answer, but I am going to say this anyway. I only used the + in situations like this --

LL
+
CK
4-ever

-- to make a complete sentance. If I were just to draw LL (something in the middle) CK, I would generally replace the something in the middle with a heart. But I would never do LL + CK without the 4-ever (or some other phrase) after the second set of initials. Could be the math (not maths ) geek in me that thinks the + sign indicates a mathematical expression and needs to have an answer.

Like others, I've never seen the 'L' like LL L CK.

- Laura

Vicki, please don't worry about it.

I'll admit my initial reaction on catching up with the posts was to be disappointed. But as I say it's only a story - there are more important things in the world to get wound up about - and no one deliberately set out to spoil the story to be mean. So I pretty quickly got over it. These things happen. Such is life. And other such zen karma, baby utterances. <G>

LabRat

Rat, in South Africa I always saw L, not +. So it's a good deal broader than Scottish!

Mere

Replying to Rat, who posted this... oh, at least 15 posts ago

No, I've never seen an L used in that way, Rat, which I guess is why I automatically thought that you'd been indicating that Lois wrote:

LL

CK

I've only ever seen it with a heart between the initials; never with an L or a +

Strange...


Wendy (now going back to read the rest of the thread )

I cannot believe that!

The whole 'L' thing. I thought it was just me - out of the loop kinda dealie. It totally doesn't make a difference to me. I like to see differences. The same thing all the time gets boring.

I have another theory. <G> Maybe it's just one more sign I'm getting old. It was certainly when I was in my early twenties, I think, when the whole 'heart = love' thing started up. You know "I heart New York". I wonder now if that craze overtook the old 'XX L YY' equation I'd known throughout my childhood and early teens? And I just wasn't paying attention any more. <g> Because I've never seen that 'XX heart YY' configaration you mention, Wendy, until just now in this thread. I'm sure it's more likely to be me not noticing it had become more trendy than the older version than anything else, if so.


LabRat