Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Fun with Polls Popularity and Feedback.

Hi FoLCs

Recently I have been thinking about what makes a writer or a video maker popular.

There are some new authors and video makers that, due to lack of feedback, lose interest or give up on sharing their ideas.

Some readers claim they don't have time to post FDK, others that they don't have time to watch more than one video. However, there are some writers and video makers that are rewarded with comments.

Comments are something very necessary for a writer or video maker's improvement, but right now I'm more interested in getting to know why this phenomenon of lack of feedback for some and plenty for others exist.

Thanks for stopping by, and if you wanna vote, be my guest

I voted other to both questions.

Popularity is how well liked someone is, but in terms of this context I'm not sure what it means.

And for the second question, I write fdk for stories that really capture my attention, and I usually email it or send it over IRC if the person happens to be on. I do post "fdk" - short notes of encouragment on the boards occasionally, but not frequently. I'm slack, I know, but I don't expect much fdk for anything I do.

It depends. I try and read as much as I can. Sometimes I just don't get around to some stories. Even with my favorite authors, I still haven't read everything by them. When it comes to feedback, I'll admit the type of story has a lot to do with it. I love to pick apart stories with a bunch of parts. I think I've had just as much fun in some of the FDK threads as in the stories themselves sometimes LOL. I do try and make the rounds on various stories, though. I don't always leave feedback on other stories just because a meager "Nice story" sounds kinda lame coming out of my mouth. Sometimes I'd rather wait until I can either say something constructive or at least something longer than 2 words.

Ultimately what I read has everything to do with quality. If it's decent, I will (eventually) come. If it's not, well, I'll try again if you write another story. God knows we're all not going to get an award nom for every story we write. I've seen way too many people flip out over the Kerths, and some of my favorite stories were never even nominated. Whether or not you have an icon next to your story isn't the wham-bam, end-all of success. If it is, I clearly need to be extending my two-year hiatus everytime I write something.

The videos are a different story. My internet connection is a huge issue. Jesuit schools, you'd think for the outrageous tuition we pay, we'd get a better hook up.

Interesting poll!
JD

I think it's an unfortunate fact of life, Erica, that if people have only limited time to read/watch then they will tend to choose which stories/videos they read/watch out of the masses posted.

In many cases, this means that they will tend to naturally gravitate towards authors/vidders whose projects they have enjoyed in the past and who they can be reasonably assured they will enjoy now. The reliable option. They don't want to risk wasting that precious time taking a chance on something/someone new.

It is sad that they will tend not to venture into new, untested territory, but unfortunely it happens and you can understand why it does. I don't blame anyone for that, but it is discouraging for the new talent, I know. It is something that bothers me, personally, and if I get the chance to encourage new talent, I will. But, speaking personally, I just don't have the time (and it has to be said the inclination) to read long stories these days, so my comments are mostly confined to vignettes and shorts in the stories. But I am an equal opportunities ignorer. I'll fail to read and comment on stories by my favourite authors these days as well as new talent if the story is too long for my current 'schedule'.

It may make new talent feel a little better if I mention that it's been my experience - particularly lately - that it's not just a problem for them. I've heard some very well-known authors express their discouragement at the lack of feedback on their stories, too. So it's not confined to new talent alone.

I have been able to catch up periodically with videos and I was delighted to be able to offer feedback to new vidders there. I'll admit I was very surprised and a little dismayed to see that some new talent had received no feedback - in the case of one particular vidder who had produced some excellent videos, the best I've yet seen imo, this was particularly discouraging for me. I'm sure even more so for them.

I think though, in many ways, we have a problem in this fandom with expectation of feedback. That the bar has been raised too high over the years and now it's become a problem often rather than anything else. I often get the impression that I'm expected to read everything that is posted and comment on it and can often be made to feel very guilty if I haven't. It's become, it seems, unacceptable that readers might not read a story simply because it doesn't suit their own personal bias/tastes (and we all have those) or because they've skimmed the first segment and decided they just plain don't like it. Or a multitude of other reasons why they simply don't read.

This phenomenum only becomes truly apparent when you visit other fandoms and realise that expectation just isn't there. In the Stargate community, for instance, stories are dumped in great numbers onto the main story archive each day/week and the general expectation of authors seems to be that if they are read and feedback offered that's great; if they aren't, they aren't, it was worth writing them just for the fun of doing so.

I kind of regret, sometimes, that new authors/vidders here aren't able to share that same experience. It seems to me they miss out on so much that we, older <g>, authors used to take for granted. The difference between FoLCdom and most other fandoms I've visited on the net, of course, is that our system of posting stories in parts on a forum and getting feedback on each segment is I've found, pretty rare. And it's that system that's led to this expectation that projects must generate a response from the audience they're presented to and that feedback, often, seems to be the only worthwhile reason to produce something.

It saddens me because it means authors/vidders seem to be missing out on the pure, simple pleasure of producing something simply because it's fun to do and they enjoy it. An experience which dominated my writing career for years before the internet came into play and feedback became not just the norm, but the expected. I remember so vividly the days of paper zines, when fdk was practically non-existent and an author had zero contact with their readers. I remember the delight, but also the complete shock when I received a letter in the mail from a reader who'd read one of my stories. I think that letter was the only feedback I got in an entire decade. Think on that!

Not that I'm at all saying that new talent - or any talent - shouldn't have those expectations. They've sadly become an inevitable part of the system we've created and that's no one's fault really. And I realise, too, that things have moved on and that expectations are very different now from my early writing days, and in many ways this is a Very Good Thing. I've taken a lot of pleasure and delight over the years in the fact that I can post a story at 3am in the UK and have readers commenting on it from Israel or Canada or wherever two hours later. That's a wonder that's always stayed fresh for me.

And I know, too, that it's easy for someone who's been fortunate in the feedback they've received to say 'it doesn't matter if you don't get feedback, write/produce for you, because it's fun and you take pleasure in it'. But, I do wish sometimes, all the same, that feedback hadn't become so much the be all and end all, the sole reason for and the sole reward for writing and producing. The sole measure of success. Technology and progress have brought great benefits, but they also seem to have taken away some of the sheer joy in it, too. And that's just...sad.

Well, this seems to have become something of a maudlin meandering <g>. Basically, boiled down, imo there can be a whole host of reasons why some stories get feedback and some don't and if there was a solution to that and a way to ensure that new talent got the encouragement they need I'd jump on it. I really wish there was a simple answer. It does distress me that there must be so much talent out there that becomes discouraged and gives up because of lack of attention/feedback. It is a problem I would like to see solved - but as to the solution, well, I have no more answers than anyone else, I'm afraid. And it's not for lack of thinking about it.

Unfortunately in many ways, I think we're the victims of our own success. We have such a wealth of talent in this fandom, and that talent is so prolific that there often just aren't enough hours in the day for many of us to ensure that they all get a share of the attention.

I had a thought on this a time back actually - was considering suggesting an 'Adopt A New Talent' policy. <g> Whereby, readers would give consideration to chosing the offering of a new talent to read/watch each week, along with that favourite, safe, realiable author. Just one. Think of the difference that would make to new talent if each of us who don't have time to read everything chose just one out of the masses to try. It wouldn't take that much longer out of our time, but would make a huge difference in encouraging new talent, I suspect.

Can you tell this is a problem that's been on my mind a lot for some time? :rolleyes:

LabRat

I often slip into the habit of not posting feedback unless I have something constructive to say, or at least something more than just, "Hey, I'm reading this and I enjoyed it." Mostly because I think it sounds kind of weak.

However, lately, I'm really trying to post more, despite my misgivings, because I know how much *I* enjoy receiving even the simple little messages. When there's a slew of things being posted, I try and get at least one up for each particular author, even if it's just a simple three words. I tend to send a lot of my longer more in-depth FDK by e-mail, but I usually only do that when I both have the time, and am stirred so much by a story that I really, really *want* to.

I kind of have to agree with Lab, though, about the feedback. It's a shame that people are getting discouraged, but really, feedback should be a wonderful bonus, not an expectation.

I think the "other" option was the most popular <wink>.

I think some authors get feedback because of popularity, their stories and writing style have become well known and the readers can generally count on getting a good read in by sticking with Folcs who get good reviews. And I think most people post on stories they read, even if it is just to say "great story" and leave it at that.

Thus you have the most popular writers getting the most feedback.

TEEEEEEJ

I haven't looked at the poll yet or read all the responses here, but I wanted to remind people of the poll I recently ran on who's reading CKTIYL. A staggering 76 people responded, out of which 56 said they were reading the story.

A whopping 56 readers! Wow!

Yet, out of those 56, how many have posted feedback? I'd estimate around 12.

So, take heart, writers and video-makers! There's a very large invisible audience out there. Don't ever assume that low feedback equates to low readership.

I know your question focuses on feedback, Erica, but I saw that Labrat's response began with an observation of why people choose to *read* certain stories, rather than why they post feedback on them, so I thought the information from my poll would be relevant.

Edit: Okay, I did the poll. You didn't define whether the popularity question related to the writer/video-maker or the work they create. I assumed you meant the person rather than their works, so chose other: popularity to me is how well liked you are as a person. Whether I post feedback depends mostly on whether I have something to say or not. I'm not a hugely chatty person and I don't like to just repeat what others have said before me, so it's fairly rare that I can think of something to post.

Yvonne

Question 1:
I chose 'other'. I think that most of these factors are interrelated, one way or another, and that the best answer is 'all of the above'.

Question 2:
I chose 'I post feedback to anyone'. When reading something on the boards, I always post feedback (unless I have nothing nice to say, which happens very rarely, if ever). When reading from the Archive, if it's a story I enjoyed, I'll most likely email my feedback.

I would like to comment on something LabRat said:
I see your point, LabRat, and I partly agree.

The thing is, if one writes just for their own pleasure, they can very well keep their work in their hard disk and the pleasure remains the same. The moment they decide to post it in the Internet or otherwise show it to someone, it means that (at least somewhere deep inside) they want other people's opinions on it.

I do write for pleasure. When I joined the FoLCdom, I'd already been writing for years. When I want to feel that pleasure, I open Word and start writing something.

However, I also find pleasure in receiving feedback for something I created - and when I want to feel that pleasure, I post my story here (if it's an L&C one) or I give it to a friend of mine (if it's something original).

I admit I feel kind of jealous of the writers who receive lots of feedback. I may be wrong, but I have the impression that the amount of feedback is strongly connected with the number of readers (in an analogies sort of way). And, well, when I post a story (or a video, for that matter) that receives very few or no comments at all, it's only natural to think that my work either sucks (and people didn't want to say that, so they preferred not to comment at all) or that very few people took the time to actually take a look at it. Both are discouraging.

Now, I've never been so discouraged as to stop writing altogether - and I suspect this is mainly because I love writing anyway, and because I'm very self-confident (sometimes bordering on stubborn and arrogant). But someone less confident, in my position, might give up. And I'm not trying to sound like a martyr by saying that; just saying that I have personal experience on how hard the lack of feedback can be for a writer.

Lastly, about the videos: I have a slow connection and don't download plenty. Also, I prefer trailers than music videos, so I'm more likely to download a trailer than a music video. And, since it takes me much time to download something new (which is old news by the time I've finished downloading) I rarely post comments on the boards and rely most on emails for that.

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

I'll read anything that catches my attention and seems to have a premise I'll like. When it's an author whose work I've read before, I have a headstart on figuring out if I'll like the new thing or not. There are very few authors that I will read *every* *single* *thing* they write; even authors I like will sometimes tackle premises I don't. And vice versa.

Sometimes, I admit, I form opinions on a pretty shaky basis -- I heard people raving about how wonderful and angsty "When the World Finds Out" was, for example, and saw some snippets quoted, and decided I did *not* want to go anywhere near that story <g> But I know that's not very reliable; when I finally read the story off the archive, I loved it.

Even if I do read something, I might not comment -- I would like to always leave a comment on everything, but some days I just don't have the emotional energy to find something interesting to say. When I read something by a new(ish) author, I do make more of an effort to comment and say encouraging things.

Videos are a little different -- for reasons I do not fully understand, I'm always a little reluctant to open a new vid. So there are lots of vids I haven't commented on. Which I feel guilty about, since I *make* vids and I really want people to watch & comment on *my* stuff...

I have no idea if any of that made any sort of sense. Today's one of those low-brain-wattage days...

PJ

I have to admit that I was disappointed to see the title of this poll. Why? Because I've seen this claim made many times before: that feedback is linked to popularity. Only 'popular' people get feedback. If you don't have lots of friends in FoLCdom, if you're not part of some 'clique' or other, you don't get feedback even if your work is excellent.

I've never believed that to be true. I would hate to think that I only get feedback on my stories because I'm somehow part of the 'in-crowd'. Did CC get shedloads of feedback on In A Better Place because she hangs with the cool guys?

I've heard it suggested - even wondered if it were true myself - that writers who rarely post feedback on other people's stories are less likely to get feedback themselves. I've no idea if that's true. It doesn't enter into my own calculations, though - I don't look at a story and try to remember if the author has ever posted feedback to me or to others. Whether it works that way for some people, I don't know.

Only posting feedback on friends' stories? Again, that's not true for me - one of my closest friends is currently posting a story and I've commented on very little of it. Sure, I'm her BR and so she's already heard what I have to say, but I'm not deliberately going in and posting because she's my friend.

So why else don't I post feedback on stories?(I'll come to videos in a minute). First, the story might not appeal to me. If it's on a theme I really don't care for (New Krypton, a crossover, a pregnancy or baby story, an all-action story, or a fluffy PWP nothing-happens story, for example) then I'm unlikely to read it. I'll read the first part. (If it's one-part only and hasn't really appealed, I won't post feedback). I might skim the second. If it hasn't caught my attention sufficiently to overcome my adverse reaction to the subject-matter, I don't read on. Second, the story might go in a direction I don't care for. Maybe I find the actions of a lead character out of character. Or just not to my taste. Or something happens I don't like. Maybe then I should say so - but then, if others are enjoying it what right do I have to criticise? I did actually post to say to one author, relatively recently, that her story was heading in a direction I couldn't accept so I was bowing out. Again, other readers seem perfectly happy with what's happening. So do authors want to be told when they've crossed a line preventing some readers from enjoying their story? Especially if they're perfectly happy with the direction they're taking?

For a few stories, it is related to quality - once or twice I have tried to be kind to a struggling author and suggest that she use a spellchecker, try to learn some grammar, get a beta-reader. That's not always appreciated, and posting a comment like that is always a risk. Is it going to scare the author off? Or will s/he respond positively and ask for help? Sometimes it's just easier to stay quiet.

If I just plain don't like a story? Find it boring/badly written/too many problems in it to know where to begin? That's rare on these boards. But where that is the case I certainly won't post feedback - what's the point in posting to say 'I really didn't like this story' or 'your writing needs lots of improvement'? Thankfully, that kind of situation is rare - but nobody's going to post feedback to say that. Not unless they're just plain nasty. If I'm going to post a comment, I want to be able to say something positive before I go on to something critical - not much hurts an author more than getting a feedback post which is only critical. Especially if it's the only post that person has made on their story.

But sometimes it really is just inertia. Even with stories I'm really enjoying. And that's true of all of us. I could notice that someone who's commented regularly on instalments of a longer story of mine simply disappears for a few instalments. I'll start wondering if she's just got bored with it. It'll turn out that she's been away, or that she just hasn't the time, or energy, or plain impetus to post comments for a while.

I said I'd come to videos. Someone asked about comments on videos once before, and several people said that a lot of the time it's about the song. If I don't know the song, or don't like it, I won't watch the video. I have to be honest too and say that, even though I've now made some videos myself, I prefer trailers to videos. I'm a fanfic lover at heart. So if it's a choice between watching a new trailer and watching a new video, the trailer wins every time. If it's a new video or a new fic, the fic wins every time.

Do I post feedback on every video or trailer I watch? Almost every trailer. Something more than half of the videos. Fairly or unfairly, the art of videos just appeals to me less. And, yes, that's pretty hypocritical given I've made videos and want feedback on them.

How do I choose which videos to watch? First and foremost, the song. Then if I've heard that the video is something different - for example, Rachel's Inspector Gadget, which was a lot of fun. Videos made by my friends? Well, if Kaethel makes a video I'll watch it, but then she's taught me everything I know, so it's a small quid pro quo. But - as she knows - I haven't liked/posted feedback on everything she's made. I didn't care for her Broken video, because I don't like the song.

Videos made by 'popular' video-makers? Well, I went off one 'popular' maker's videos some time ago because she started using far too many fancy transitions, which just made me feel that my eyes and brain were being jerked around. They were worse than distracting. Other 'popular' makers have lots of videos I've never watched, not because I don't like their videos - I do - but I'm an occasional video-watcher. I don't go on a watching spree - for me at least, watching several together tends to make them all blur into one. Especially where the same scenes are used in lots of videos.

LabRat correctly points out that there are lots of new video-makers, and I really should watch some by them. And if I get the time and feel in the mood for it, I will.


Bottom line on feedback, for me? It depends. If I have the time and the inclination to read/watch. Then if I have the time/inclination to post - and not posting depends on too many factors to pin it down to just one.

But the one thing it's not is popularity-based. I try not to feel offended when that's suggested - as if I choose what to post on on the basis of popularity, or I only get feedback on the basis of popularity. And if it really was 'popularity', then how would new authors ever get feedback?


Wendy

Yes, but, see, that was the point I was making earlier, Anna - I just don't think that's necessarily true all of the time. At least - it never used to be.

Before the internet came along there was a hugely healthy and productive writing community busy churning out stories by the truckload. But at that time there was also zero feedback and none of us had any expectation of ever hearing from a single soul who read our stories. We were literally working in a vaccum.

If it's true that people only put their stories out in the world to get people's opinions and would otherwise not share them at all, then fanfic would have died a slow, lonely strangulated death long since and we wouldn't be here today. Yes, we wanted to share. We wanted others to read what we'd written. We hoped that they enjoyed them as much as we had writing them. But we could never be sure of that because there was no communication whatsoever between author and readers. We were working in the dark.

And yet. Stories were written and published all the same.

So, logically, there had/has to be other reasons besides wanting opinions and feedback that encouraged fans to write fanfic and not just keep them on their hd but send them out into the world.

I can only speak for myself of course, but I can give you my reason. During that time, I wrote stories to please myself. They were the put-on-paper renditions of the stories in my head. The 'But what if...?' and 'I wonder..." When I had them completed I wanted to share them with fellow fans. Maybe some of them would get pleasure from them as I had. So I submitted them to the appropriate zine for the fandom which was being produced at that time and then I was happy in the (reasonable) knowledge that someone, somewhere was reading my story and (hopefully) enjoying it.

Actually getting confirmation that someone had read it or Feedback or readers' opinions wasn't something I even thought about. Never entered my head I'd ever hear from anyone who'd read one of my stories. Because it just simply wasn't an option. It wasn't something that happened, so it wasn't something that occurred to any of us to hanker after or expect.

Although, I should say here that there was probably one exception to that. You could sometimes get readers' opinions when you attended conventions. But you had to be a fairly recognisable name before that happened. Con attendees had to put your face or namebadge together with that author whose story they'd read in a zine six months ago. And there were fewer of those around then than there are now, so it was probably on the rare event side of ever happening. Which was still marginally better odds than ever hearing from a reader outside of a con.

Of course, that was then and this is now. And lots of things have changed inbetween the two. It is possible, I guess, that today the sole reason now for an author to share their work is to get opinions and there are never any other reasons. Which, again, I would understand, given the way the culture/system has progressed over the years, but just be very sad that the internet had brought us to that.

Having said all that, I suspect that you may be right that, today, there are no more authors who simply write just for the pleasure of writing and share just for the pleasure of sharing, as we all did back then, and that loss is something to be regretted, I think. Certainly, I'd find it somewhat sad if that was true, right across the board and sorry for today's authors who've had the misfortune to miss out on that writing culture of the past.

LabRat (Yes, I think I changed my mind halfway through that post...that's what you get when you think it out on the hoof as you type )

Ah, the good old days... I wrote fanfic for paper zines, too, way back when. Yeah, I wrote the stories because I had an idea and I wanted to see how it came out. But I do remember being absolutely ecstatic when I got that first copy of a zine with *my* story in it. Printed on paper, along with other great stories, with my name and everything! No, I never got feedback from any readers, but the editor of the zine said she liked it <g> and at the time, that was quite a thrill. Actually, "it" was a series in four parts; they were printed in two editions of the zine. The coolest part might have been that for the last two stories, in the the second zine (which came out later), she had gotten a fan artist to draw illustrations for my story.

So, um, said all that to say this -- it wasn't always pure art for art's sake, and I, at least, got some rewards back from writing. I don't see posting on a message boards as that much different.

Maybe the difference is, when we wrote for 'zines, we never expected to hear much of anything back, so any reaction we got was a huge bonus. Here, where it's so much easier to get comments, there's an expectation that the universe *owes* us feedback, and if we don't get any we're being deprived.

Or not Just a few thoughts...

PJ
who thinks that hand-drawn illustrations for specific fanfic stories would still be way cool...

Fascinating questions and discussion.

I answered "Popularity = quality" for the first question, assuming that popularity applied to a person's work and not that person him or herself. I think fanfic works like any other form of art - if people are pleased with what they read/see/hear/whatever by a particular person, they will come back for more. Over time, that particular writer/vidder/artist will develop a fanbase and his/her name will become well-known. His/her stories will be sought out and read by a healthy portion of people.

Perfect example - CC Aiken. From her very first story, CC's work has been admired because she writes very well and tells great stories. Now the mere mention that CC has begun posting a new story or has one ready is enough to send many people scurrying to the MBs. CC is a popular writer because she's delivered a quality product. And when you have a large quantity of people reading your story, you end up with large amounts of feedback.

That being said, I don't think a lack of feedback means that no one is reading. Yvonne's poll proved that.

I'll put out these theories as to why even good stories sometimes garner slow feedback threats, but they might be hogwash. Perhaps the people who like certain types of stories aren't the kinds of people who leave loads of feedback.

Perhaps the tone of the story - for example, a story that is dark or sad or angsty - doesn't garner as much feedback as one that is WAFFY because it is harder to think of things to say - to put your feelings into words. I mean, it's easy for me to type off a "Wow, I'm all melty inside! That was so cute " response to a sweet, kissy story and a lot harder to say "I'm crying because ..... and I'm scared to death that this....is going to happen...."

Perhaps people have only enough time to read but not enough time to post feedback and have every intention of returning later, but when they return later, another segment has been posted and they want to read that.

Lots of reasons I can see why people read but remain quiet that have nothing to do with how good the story is or how popular the writer.

And I 100% agree with Lab's view that in a world where people have a limited amount of time, they tend to use that time to read/watch a proven entity. There simply isn't enough time to "risk" trying a new writer, therefore people turn to writers they are fairly certain will deliver up a sure thing.

In the real world, look at the Harry Potter phenomenon. People will be lined up all over the world to get the next installment this summer because JK Rowling has consistently delivered a great story, and people know they will be getting more of the same.

As for feedback, I chose "Other". I rarely read fanfic these days, even the fanfic by writers whose work I've loved in the past. I simply don't have the time (and I'm sad about that).

Honestly, if I'm not leaving feedback, it's because I'm not reading the story. In addition to lack of time, I might not be reading the story because either the theme/premise didn't appeal to me or I started but found something about the story that caused me a problem (poor grammar, spelling, OOC behaviour, etc.) and I quickly stopped. Again, my time limitations mean I can't spend time on stories that I'm not pretty darned sure I will love. Too, I admit a reluctance these days to begin stories that will be long because I know it will be hard to keep up with them. Sometimes I go a few days without getting to the MBs, and by then if I've missed a few posts, I feel like it will be too hard to catch up.

But when I do read a story, I try to leave feedback because I know how much I appreciate feedback when I'm posting.

But going back to what Lab said about expectations for feedback. I think she's right, that at least in this fandom, the expectation for feedback is pretty high. When I wrote and posted my first story, it was because I had this idea in my head that I wanted to get out for myself. I posted it because I thought it would be fun to share it, but in a million years I never expected to get feedback. I admit, though, that the feedback I received was what kept me writing. I honestly can't say what I would have done had I gotten no feedback whatsoever. I like to think it wouldn't have mattered because the writing part was the reward.

I think any writer outside of the realm of fanfiction understands that feedback for the stuff they manage to get out there will be at best minimal and at worst, negative. Only the most famous of writers have fans that provide constant feedback, and most writers are lucky to receive a positive review here and there and usually tempered by several negative reviews, if any reviews at all.

Honestly, IMO, if you are writing fanfic purely for the feedback, you'd be better off spending your time doing something else. Since fanfic is a labor of love - something you do because you love the show and you have stories you'd like to see explored - the writing has to be enough of a payback.

As for videos, I'm just like Wendy in that it is all about the music. If I don't love the song, I won't watch the video. I admit that some of the videos on the short list for Alt-Kerths are hard for me to watch. Not because the video is badly made - far from it. I just don't like the music and can't manage to get over that to enjoy the video.

Kind of like reading a well-written story about a topic that I don't like. I know Stephen King is an excellent writer, but I won't read his books because I don't like to be scared.

Lynn

This is not necessarily true all the time, but I have noticed that stories written here by people who have been around a long time(part of the clique, and there IS a clique, don't deny it)and write choppy storylines or even have major grammatical errors still get HUGE positive feedback lists, even though the story is mediocre in subject and format.

Now of course most people aren't going to write in and say "Man that story sucked" or even "well it was so-so" but I get real cynical about feedback when I read something along those lines, yet see rave reviews from all the same people.

Totally brings me back to highschool, where the popular kids' posters were voted best in class even though their artwork was done in 2nd grade crayon and most of it was done by their moms.

...Whoa flashback!! Talk me down Carrie!!

TEEEEEJ

Hi FoLCs

First off, I'd like to thank everybody who is answering this poll.

Now, I'd like to give my cent on this topic, commenting on some postings.

It saddens me too, Labby. I usually make twisted simple vignettes and I have nothing to complain about my Fdk rate because I feel very afortunate when I get one or two comments.

Aria, what may sound weak for you, may sound sweet in other ears. I mean... Just the fact that someone says s/he is reading or read it, makes you feel someone actually took the time to read what you had to say. Yvonne just said she was surprised when she found out 56 people were reading and she was getting around 12 fdk postings. Isnt it something rewarding to know that eventhough a few are posting fdk, lots of others are reading too?

Actually Anna, this poll was for you. I felt awful when I saw your challenge story didn't receive any feedback. It was not the best you have ever written, but it still deserved comments!!! I'm sure anyone can find something good in a story and if s/he doesn't.. well, then say it!!! who said feedback is only about positive comments? This is supposed to be about improvement and sharing opinion and not praising only the good sides.

Anna, you are a great author. Don't let lack of feedback let you down. if it is up to me, you wont ever have to start your own feedback thread and ask for feedback.

Don't be disappointed, Wendy. It was just curiosity. We have talked about it, but I felt like hearing what other people have to say. By no means I want to point out great authors and say they should be ashamed for getting so many comments while others get so few. I do think what you have gotten is part quality of work, part reputation, and most of all, talent.

You are talented (period).

In my opinion, you should.. I mean, I am a foreigner and I do crave for corrections most of the time.

So, if you by any chance read any of my silly stuff and you see a mistake like Kaethel found in my MLTVs or when like others did, I'd appreciate that.

I hope you don't get offended by my silly questions. Again, nothing was intended here besides a geniune curiosity.

I am just concerned that other talents like CC will be lost just because their first work wasn't the best. Potential we all have. Limitations too, of course.

This means you havent been reading my stuff. But it's good you keep finding time to read.

I agree. Feedback is addictive.

Fans... fans are cool!

I agree. But when I see authors like Anna starting their own thread because no one could say something about her work, it upsets me.

I like the scary ones, but I never really understood the geniality of Stephen King.

I'm quite familiar with the expression (I heard it a few times around), though I'm not sure if this brings any benefits to anyone except true friendships.


MDL

Obviously no-one's going to name names here, but I've been around from the start of these boards and I'm racking my brains, TJ, to think of even one person this could remotely apply to.

As for cliques, I'm sure there are several of them. That's the way it always worked in school, too.

Erica:

I wasn't talking about pointing out errors - I meant that where events in a story go in a direction which doesn't appeal to me, or something happens that I find unlikely or out of character. Let's say - for an absolutely ludicrous example - it's a story about Clark being high on red Kryptonite. Now, that was done very well by Yvonne. But then let's say the author has him go out and rape someone just for the sheer hell of it because he's high. Now, that would be enough to stop me reading right there. I might post to say so; I might just never open a post of that story again.

Now, we're not talking here of anything that ludicrously out of character, but there have been a small number of occasions when a story I've been reading goes in a direction I wasn't expecting and don't care for. Well, most of the time other readers are still enjoying it, so who am I to object? Let them enjoy it. I don't think it helps the author to know that maybe one reader was put off, if her other readers still love the story, so I won't say anything. I'll just stop reading. If I'm asked directly 'why did you stop posting comments on my story?' I'll tend to explain why, but not otherwise.

So it's not just about correcting errors! And I'll say again here, Erica and Anna, I really admire you guys and others - Kaethel, Cherry and many more - who write in languages not your own. You do an absolutely amazing job.


Wendy

I know this poll is about "popularity", but I will mainly respond to how I leave comments/read stories.

I told Erica that this would ruffle some feathers, but my Evi-Dog friend posted anyway . Good for her, I say!

First, when it comes to videos/trailers, I don't really watch them. Sorry. I don't really like either Dean Cain or Teri Hatcher, so watching them to music just doesn't really do anything for me. I am not really a visual person. I like reading and being able to imagine how the characters I love would act. I admit that I have trouble forming images of the characters even when I read. So the rest of this post really only applies to fanfic for me.

I have been writing Lois and Clark fanfic (and fanfic for several other shows) since I was 16 and first found out what fanfic was. I didn't (and still don't) consider myself a writer. A mathematician? An engineer? Sure. A writer? No way.

When I was younger, I used to be *so* jealous of the people who would post one story segment and get tons of comments and while I could post an entire story and not have the sum of the comments add up to someone else's one story part. I didn't start out writing for comments. I began writing because I saw something in the show that i didn't like and I thought that my way was better. And I thought maybe some other people might think so, too. But then I realized FDK is a drug. Once you get a small taste, you want more and more and more. I know, in my case, I wasn't getting very much at all. I thought it was because I didn't go on IRC. That was probably not true, though, because looking back now, I realized that my writing wasn't all that good. So I left the fandom entirely. When I came back, I had an idea for a story that would only work with the characters from Lois and Clark. So I wrote the story, not caring at all about the feedback I got.

Yes, it still bothers me to see that some authors don't get fdk. I tend to get more than my fair share of fdk now, and for that, I am so grateful.

I admit that I am sorely remiss on reading and leaving fdk. I do like to encourage younger/newer authors, but I also have the problem that I am sort of too mean when I post. If I don't like something about a story, I am generally too outspoken about it.

If I am reading something, chances are very good that I will post feedback about it. Either that, or I will send fdk in a private email. Since my mom was sick, I have had a hard time keeping up with what's been posted, so I know that I am sorely remiss on my fdk.

Now, regarding TJ's post --

Yes, I believe there are cliques in folc-dom. Maybe not cliques, but groups of similar interests or similar ages or similar geographic location or whatever else in common. And there is nothing wrong with that.

I know that I have a small group of friends who are writers. I don't know if the reason I especially like their stories is because I am friends with them or if because I am friedns with them, we have some similar views on the way the characters believe and similar tastes in plots we like.

Similarly, if someone annoys me personally, I am not very likely to read their stories. I feel that one's personality is often reflected in their writing style. And if you bother me through the way you behave in other areas, I will not waste my time reading your story.


I am curious which stories/authors you are talking about.

Just popping in quickly...

I know, it's just hard to remind myself of that sometimes. Like I said, I'm trying to get better about these things because I know how much enjoyment *I* get out of just a simple "Loved it." Two words are so much better than silence in that case.


As for cliques... Show me a organization composed of humans ANYWHERE that does not have a clique somewhere in it. The word is used with such stigma, but really... It is human nature to socialize, and through socializing we find common interests with others, and through those common interests we form close bonds with other human beings. You can't *not* have groups. It's the way of communication. They will always happen, and they aren't necessarily bad.

I may be blatantly honest, but I'm not mean.

Yes, cliques are a part of life and similar interests draw people together. I come to this board because I like LNC and quite enjoy the discussion topics, so I guess that puts me in the LNC fanfic clique <see good backpedaling there> but my cynicism didn't just pop out of nowhere either, so I won't back down off that stance entirely.

And I know this was just meant as a figure of speech, but to use the pronoun "you" could be taken personally. Might want to check that in the future. Unless of course the statement was meant personally.

TEEEEEEJ

You know I was just about to reply to TJ on the clique thing when you saved me the trouble by saying just precisely what I was going to, Aria. Almost word for word what I was planning to type. Uncanny.

I don't think we need feel any urge to defend ourselves for being normal.

LabRat

For me, when it comes to fanfic and videos, quality = popularity. You read something, you like it, you're impressed. That person posts something else, you'll remember the first one and go look at the new one. So on and so forth, and you have a popular author/poster. On the same scale, you can also get the infamous.. the ones that you've read/seen one of, wasn't impressed, gave them a few more chances, and then stayed as far away as you could.

For posting feedback.. I admit it, I'm slack. I'll read something, be really impressed, and then move on. If I guilt-trip myself enough, I'll post feedback, or if something really impressed me. If it's one of the authors I talk with regularly, I'll make a comment straight to them. Otherwise, it's on to the next fic (I'm such an addict).

Actually, I have to say I feel very guilty about this. It's something I noticed I was doing just recently and hadn't realised I was doing until then. But I have developed - for no good reason that I can think of - a habit of hardly going into the Challenge forum these days. Absolutely no idea why. I think maybe I got into this bad habit during a period when not much was happening in there or there were only long stories I didn't have time to read and I stopped checking what was new as a result.

Anyway - gist of this - very, very bad Rat. Bad! /me slaps herself on the wrist. I'll try to do better in future.

Yvonne - sorry, I meant to respond earlier to your comment about my focusing on reading rather than feedback. I think this was because of what I was talking about earlier - this sense that feedback when you read a story is somehow expected these days. Because of that, I think the two have become inexorably linked in my brain as a result and are interchangable. So you should probably just read feedback for read and vice versa in my previous posts. <g>

LabRat (who says 'Ow! That wrist thing really hurt!' )

Here's a few random comments:

1. If it's enough for you ('you' being any writer) to know that there are people are out there reading your story, how about posting a poll like mine when you start posting your story? A simple 'Are you reading my story' would be enough. I guess we probably wouldn't want polls like that to become the norm, but now and then I think it might be educational.

2. Popular authors, whether that popularity is down to their attractive personality or their entertaining stories, were all newbies once - ie, they earned their popularity just as newbies do today. Yesterday's new author can easily turn into tomorrow's runaway success.

3. Erica mentioned poor Anna, who had to start her own feedback thread. Well, once upon a time, most of us, including me, had to start every single one of our feedback threads. It seemed like the only way to get any comments whatsoever, and we looked on with wonder (and yes, jealousy) at those handful of authors who commanded such respect and popularity that a feedback thread would pop up of its own accord mere minutes after they posted. So take heart, Anna and any others in a similar position - things do get better.

4. More on the 'getting better' theme - Laura is a shining example of an author who has progressed steadily up the ranks of popularity, due largely, at her own admission, to the improvement in the quality of her work. Yay, Laura! So, as Wendy says, it's a fact that quality and popularity go hand in hand.

5. Which is not to say that quality doesn't sometimes get overlooked, so you authors who just read that last paragraph and are now feeling miffed because I more or less just told you your writing sucks - not necessarily.

6. I wonder what MLThompson's take on all of this is? She's a popular writer yet she seldom posts any WIPs here - she sends most things straight to the archive and thus never gets any feedback on these boards.

7. Unlike Laura, my opinions about a writer's character never influence my opinions about their work. You could be an axe-murder and I'd still read your work if it entertained me. In fact, I've never understood this blurring of the lines between the artist and the work they create. For example, I'm pretty certain I wouldn't have liked Beethoven if I'd ever met him, but I love his music. I've a hunch I wouldn't really like Terry Pratchet, but I've read an awful lot of his books. Van Gogh? I'll pass on anyone who chops their own ear off, thank you very much, but I like a lot of his paintings.

Here endeth my ramblings.

Yvonne

YOU have a generous nature Yvonne; you're honest and take things at face value. Unfortunately, there are those that take one or two aspects of a writer's point of view and allow that to taint their own view of everything that writer produces.

TEEEEEEJ

All of this discussion about guilt is very interesting.

I know myself that I feel very guilty for a) not reading as much fanfic as I feel I should which leads to b) not leaving feedback as I feel I should.

But the question is, why do I feel guilt? Or rather, why do I feel "I should" do anything? Isn't reading fanfic something that people do for pleasure? At least, I don't know anyone who reads fanfic as part of their job or to get paid. Fanfic reading (and writing) is just one thing on a list of millions of ways that people spend their leisure time - a hobby.

But once a hobby becomes an obligation, it's no longer enjoyable. Once you feel that you *have* to read fanfic and then you *have* to leave feedback, the whole enterprise becomes another chore of your life, right?

Even so, I think the fact that feedback is the only *payment* fanfic writers receive has something to do with it. When you go to a bookstore or on-line and plunk down your $6.99 plus tax and shipping, you've done your part in the contract between reader and writer - they've written a story, you've paid them for allowing you to read it. After the check clears, the writer expects nothing more from the reader, nor does the reader feel she owes anything more to the writer.

Not so in fanfic-dom. Writers get no cash, yet readers get the enjoyment of the stories writers spend their time and energy writing. There is an extreme imbalance, and I think readers feel guilty. Writers may start off expecting nothing in return for sharing their stories; the act of writing was why they are in it in the first place.

But when some writers get lots of feedback and other writers get little to none, this imabalance is magnified. I mean, writer of Book A and writer of Book B both get their $6.99 per copy regardless of what the readers think about the respective quality. Not so in fanfic - if people like Fanfic A better than Fanfic B, they will leave feedback (read: pay) more for it than they will Fanfic B, and everyone, including the writer, can see this. Fanfic B writer feels devalued. She put in just as much time and effort into her story, yet Fanfic A writer is getting "paid" more.

I think the only way this situation will ever get any better is if fanfic writers go back to understanding that they are not getting paid in any way to write their stories, including in feedback currency. Readers shouldn't have to feel guilty if they've read a story and don't leave feedback - there is no law anywhere that states that this is an equitable agreement. Writers write stories that they can choose to share - freely - with readers. Readers can choose to read a story or not - guilt free.

We writers have to decide why we are writing and if we can be satisfied with a feeling of accomplishment or if we need the feedback as payment. If that payment is required, then fanfic has to be looked at as a business and writers will have to taylor their product to the marketplace, which means improving, offering stories that people want to read, and being willing to bend quite a bit.

I'm not saying wanting feedback is wrong - heck, I crave it as much as the next person. Just that we have to remember that this is not a job, this is a labor of love.

I think a good reason I don't make more time to read fanfic is because I feel guilty if I choose to read Story A over Story B and even more guilty if I don't leave feedback. I have too many obligations in my life and don't want another one coming out of something that is supposed to be fun. If I leave feedback for someone because I'm inspired to do so for whatever reason, I sure hate that I feel bad that I didn't do the same for everyone else.

Lynn

Fascinating discussion, y'all Erica said:

and that jumped out at me because I pretty much always start my own feedback thread. That's getting to be less common these days, I guess, but I think of it as a courtesy to my readers.

I don't know if this is true for anybody else, but for me, starting a comments thread is more work than replying to a comments thread. Maybe it's because I have to come up with a folder title, and find it slightly intimidating -- those have been getting pretty elaborate lately! And then the first post of a thread has more visibility than any of the replies so I want to say something really clever or deep, which is not always possible. And then there's the worry that while I'm starting a comments thread, somebody else is *also* starting a thread for that story, and then we'll have two of them, which is just sloppy and (for me, anyway) embarrassing. Some days I don't let any of that worry me, but other days, it will hold me back, and I'll wait 'til somebody else starts it.

Anyway, I do find that I'm more likely to comment if the thread has already been started by somebody. And I don't see any reason why an author shouldn't start their own comments thread.

As for cliques... yeah, we have groups of friends who tend to hang out together, beta-read each other's stories, and have in-jokes. It's hard for me to judge, 'cause I'm on the inside, but I like to think that our group is very friendly and open to new people. The bad part of a clique, IMO, is when it becomes exclusive, and anyone not in the group is snubbed. I don't believe that's the case here. If someone thinks it is, I'd like to hear about it -- either on this thread or by email -- because I really hate that kind of behavior.

And as another random comment, looking back over a decade of fanfic-reading, I can think of at least two authors who really severely got on my nerves, but whose stories I still really enjoy. And I've had friends whose stories I wouldn't read or didn't like. Reactions to authors vs. their work tend to correlate, but not always.

PJ

I have read pretty much every story on the archive and have sent fdk to some although not all since that would require alot more time then I have. As for posting fdk on the board, if I am reading a story I almost always post fdk.

On the poll I chose that popularity had to do with success of past stories. If I have enjoyed an author's previous stories I am very likely to read anything new they have written. However, it doesn't mean I don't read stories by new authors or others I have never heard of. I can't really explain why I do or don't read certain stories on the board. I've never thought about it too much because those I don't read in parts I usually read on the archive once it's finished.

As for MVs, my connection (although claiming to be fast) is quite slow. I download them when I have the time and will post fdk for those I watch.
I usually decide which ones to watch by the title. I mostly like sappy videos so I mainly stick to those.

I hope that all authors/video makers out there who do not receive much fdk don't get discouraged. I have read/seen many great stories/mvs that have gotten hardly any fdk. It is unfortunate and I know if I ever get the courage to post one of my stories I would be hurt by not receiving any comments, which is why I do my best to always post.

Jackie (aka Kaylle, who thinks this is her longest post yet!)

TJ, the problem with blanket statements like you made there is that they're completely unspecific. You could be referring to anyone. And that leaves everyone wondering if you're talking about them or someone they know. Everyone. Yes, I wondered if you meant me. I'm talking to a friend on IRC, and she wondered if you meant her.

Thankfully, I realised that I couldn't think of anybody who fits the bill. My friend reassured me that my grammar's not bad even when I don't get my stuff pre-edited, so it can't be me!

Those who said popularity comes from quality summed up my opinion about popularity in general, so I won't ditto them. But I'll just say their opinion on the subject is "popular" with me.

Kaethel

First of all: Erica, thank you so much for your words They really mean a lot to me.

Moving on to other stuff now:

Well, I don't have personal knowledge of how things used to be "back then". But for me (I don't know if others would agree with me), the pleasure of sharing is a synonym to the pleasure of having people read your work. A professional writer may only get negative comments from the critics and never receive a feedback letter from a fan (although I'm sure many fans try to contact their favourite authors), but a) even if only the critics have read it, then it *has* been shared because someone *did* read it, for one reason or another, and b) they know how their book sells. So, even if they don't receive comments about it, they know that some people have taken the time to read it.

In FoLCdom, however (I don't know of any other fandoms), there's no such way of knowing a story is being read. We don't have people criticizing stories, and our boards don't have the "Viewed *that many* times" function. So the only way of knowing that the sharing we do is really sharing and not giving something no one wants to take, is seeing what feedback our story/video gets.

Unless that's just the Internet girl in me speaking

Now, there's a difference between what different people consider feedback and what they think its role is. I, personally, consider feedback any kind of comments - good, bad, you name it - which is why I give it the role I explained above. Other people have other views on feedback and thus give it different roles. But, since a story of mine and its lack of feedback were the inspiration for this poll, I'd like to talk about it specifically. (Or, I'd like to try, although I'm finding it hard to put my thoughts into words.)

Well, I posted this story, and for the next two or three days it hadn't received any feedback at all. In this case, I wasn't waiting for feedback as confirmation that someone had read it; its being a challenge response made me think that some people interested in the challenge would read it anyway. Besides, it really is a weird story *and* it has a big part with a Charmed villain I didn't take the time to present properly, so I wasn't that much disappointed by the lack of feedback. The thing is, I found myself in a position where I knew some people had read it and deliberately were not posting feedback. I was neither fishing for nice words about it nor for more readers, but I wanted to know *why* people who had read it were not posting feedback. So I opened a fdk folder and told the readers I wanted to hear *any* comment they might have. And, when Erica posted, I was proven right: someone *had* read the story and had something to comment on it; something I can take into account the next time I write something.

Had it not been a challenge-response fic, I wouldn't have started a fdk folder prodding people to post comments. It's one thing encouraging the readers to post feedback, and another, much different, encouraging people to become your readers. And, really (I don't know how that's gonna sound but I'll say it anyway), if there was a non-challenge-response that wasn't getting any comments at all, mine or not, I would think that no one read it - or maybe no one read it till the end. (Now, what I would do about it is a different story and I don't think I need to go there.) Which is why I like leaving a post behind when I've read a story (and have more than just bad comments to say).

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

EDIT: Just read Pam and Yvonne's posts, and I would like to point out that the writers who start their own fdk thread usually do it the moment they post their story/part, and not a couple of days later (like I did in that instance)
And, I don't usually start my own fdk threads in case anyone likes coming up with original ideas for the title.

And yet the problem with me saying "so and so's storys are usually choppy with weak endings" may alienate me even further than saying there are cliques on the board and confessing that I am a Republican.

Tell you what, if anybody seriously wants to know what I think of their stories they can email me, but you know I got a funny feeling that the clique I'm refering to doesn't give a flip.

For your own peace of mind Kaethel, I've loved every story of yours that I have read even if I haven't posted a fdk.

TEEEEEEEJ

Yep, me too.

Yvonne

'Member this one, Yvonne? Not posted lightly. Meant every word. How about Addicted, Damaged? Are you remembering my feedbacks? wouldn't have typed it if I hadn't meant it.

TEEEEEJ

<shock> A Republican????? We'll never speak to you again! I mean, we certainly can't have your kind around here... oh, wait... I'm a Republican. So never mind

PJ
ducking and running very very fast...

TJ, I do remember those posts and really appreciated them. I'm just naturally a rather insecure person who goes into self-doubt mode at the slightest opportunity. Stupid, I know.

Yvonne

LOL! You may think it's a joke Pam but I took some heat over making Kerry a bad guy in one of my stories. Felt the burn for about 2 stories over.

TEEEEEEEJ/ saying pass the Calamine lotion.

TJ, if I remember correctly that had a lot less to do with you being a Republican than it had to do with maligning the character of a real life person in your story without any evidence that he was the way you portrayed him to be (making him an adulterer and philanderer)

As I recall, that's what many people objected to rather than your being a Republican per se. I think the response would have been the same no matter which politician you'd used, quite frankly.

I think people feel a little uneasy about using real people in that way, that's all. Certainly, I'm NOT a Republican (/me watches Pam be shocked at this revelation <G>), but had you used George Bush in the same way as you used John Kerry, I'd have felt just as uneasy with the portrayal to be honest.

LabRat

Honestly, I don't wonder. And who knows, I could be in that last of the Mohicans group who just writes to enjoy writing, but I've found the other piece of that puzzle is the fact that bottom line is, I don't care what people think of my work. And maybe that stems from the fact that as an artist, I can't afford to care. The thicker skin you have, the easier it is to jump back into the game when someone decides not to pick your ad or buy your painting. I think it's wonderful when someone leaves me a post or an email saying they liked my story, but it's not my wham-bam success story. Success is in the eye of the beholder.

No complaints from me!

JD

Nope, pretty certain politics have been an issue, because there is honest feedback happening and then there is "blowing sunshine" based on friendship/"similar interests".

However citing examples would be hurtful and discouraging.

Damn, what was this poll about again?

I gotta go get my hubby his Soprano's DVD, I'll come back in two hours.

TEEEEEEJ

I was asking myself the same thing, but if you like to keep sharing your ideas, I don't mind at all!!

MDL.

Hi

i just read a 1/3 of the first page of comments, sorry guys.

I didn't take the poll.

For me I have not posted my writing b/c I know they are horrid and I don't want to see the FDK

I put my videos up, not b/c I wanted FDK, but b/c I wanted to contribute something to the community - to keep it alive. I was nervous about what people would say, but I wasn't out to get comments.

I have said in the past why I don't comment as much as I used to:
-Too tired***, I injured my wrists for a few months, school, trips, LIFE!, working out, moved, too many pets, a husband, a pet that is too old and too sick and keeps living, BRing, I hate typing b/c I do that all day, I don't have the patience anymore...

With that said, why am I always saying I am bored and feel like I'm not accomplishing anything with my life...hmmm <me thinks>

Well there's part of my whinning list.

At least now I have a job where I am only asked to work 37.5 hrs a day (plus lunch = 8 :p ) so that has kicked in some free time.
I'm moving again, but a 5 min walking distance from work *yay* so that should free up some time!

My fingers feel like they are going to fall off - it is just too cold in this basement (no I cannot turn on the heat it's hot outside). I wish I could think of some great things to put in the FDK folder, but often I put it and I feel like I sound very dumb so I don't post it. And for some reason for the past few months when I do write something big, it doesn't get posted b/c my computer freezes or something...watch it's going to happen **now**....no... maybe **now!***

Well any ways - this is souding dumb now -

I supposed no feedback may not effect some and yet some gets affected by it. I give feedback as much as I can, but in another word, I have given up writing Lois and Clark. Not just lack of feedback but mostly lack of idea and esteem.

Well, I said enough. I'm going back into my corner to sulk about my other problems.

Nah, that should do, I'm sorry I hijacked this thread a bit, I had an itch I needed scratched and it was selfish of me to go this route. Still I appreciate being "heard". Thanks ya'll.

TEEEEEEEJ

For the love of cheese - what clique!!??!! - someone please e-mail me and shine some light one me.

(as you can see I read more)

Sometimes I feel left out and not part of the bigger LnC picture b/c I don't make vids, talk on IRC or write, but that is just my stupid part of my brain bringing me down. Well I think it is anyways. I try and ignore that degenerative part of me.

When I read some posts (FDK or not), I feel kinda of pathetic. I guess that feeling resulsts from the way people 'talk'. I try to chalk it up to 'it's just me', but sometimes it doesn't work. Some pple I feel write a certain way like they are talking to a child or a student that is waisting a teacher's time. When I interpret stuff that way, then I feel left out. At work we are very careful in how we send our e-mails b/c we have to watch out that we do not come off that way even though it is in none of our personalities to act that way. It's almost obsessive how careful we all are. Weird accountants.

Ok that is confusing.

MDL:
Oh, and I can see how feedback can be addictive!!!!


Chief Pam

Meeeeeeee too. Sometimes I wish I could talk and the computer would type my words. Sigh.

Wendy

I feel this way frequently.

Yes. I even feel bad about the quality of the post I'm leaving right now.

Aria

Exactly.

It's just sad when a clique gets mean - like the Plastics in Mean Girls. I havn't seen that here.

Yeah I see one or two authors almost ignored, but I think it is so b/c they lash out and people get confused over what they desire from the rest of the gang in folcdom. So instead of saying anything they back away slowly. I'm not saying you Teeeeej!

All I can say people are just too sensitive, myself included. But I don't let it out and I never really have a strong opinion and I unfortunately *can* see everyone else's views. It's just sad that there are those who are out there.


Me too.

Gee I gotta go.

later ma peeps :p

p.s. Teeeeeeeeeeeeeeeej - I alway thought of you as one of the pple in the 'in' crowd. - always in the known about the low-down.


edit - huh?

I'm not an American so I can't be either. Even if I was I dislike both and I still don't understand why there are *usually* only two choices - bleah....yes I studied American gov't and history. We have to in Cda.

Y'know, I think what we need is a catchy acronym or phrase that people can use that means "Yes, I'm reading (watching) this, and I'm enjoying it, so keep up the good work, but I can't think of anything original to say."

yirtaieiskutgwbictoaots? Seems a bit... bulky...

WMPM, pronounced "wom-pom" for "write more, post more"?

So when you've got no time or no inspiration, you can just post and type those few letters, just to let the author know you're there...

PJ

hehe. I like that.

Makes me think of wampum... which, I guess, is fitting. "For this fic, I shall give you wampum!"

Still giggling!

<giggle> can I borrow your rose colored glasses Roo?

TEEEEEEJ

Thank you, Yvonne. I love the fact that you refer to me as a popular writer - although I’m not exactly sure that’s true, especially compared to someone like you . But I’ll tuck that comment away as a little bit of encouragement to use the next time I’m wondering why I write LnC fic .

But you’re right. I do get some feedback by email on my stories - and I cherish every single email I get on a story whether it’s sent the day after a story is posted or three years later. I agree with those who say that feedback is addictive. But I seldom get any feedback on these boards. And because I don’t hang out on IRC, I don’t get feedback there. At times that leaves me wondering if people are even reading what I write - let alone whether or not they liked something I wrote.

But the reasons I don’t post WIPs (at least usually) are 1/ when I write, I have no outline and so don’t know where the story is going. That means I have to write the whole story before I know if the first part of my story will end up working when I finally get to the end or if it will need to be changed. I don’t even know if I will be able to find an ending. I have dozens of uncompleted stories on my hard drive. So I can’t post as I write. And then 2/ when I finally am ready to post, it tends to be less nerve-wracking if I send it to the archives because I’m always so nervous about letting people see a story that it’s usually just easier to get it over with in one swoop .

I also don’t post feedback on the boards because I don’t read stories on the boards. There are two reasons for this: 1/ I don’t read stories in parts because if I like a story, I don’t have the patience to wait until the person posts the next part and 2/ I’ve decided that I’m a jinx. If I start reading a story in parts, the person’s muse usually decides to take a powder (I think the muse god hates me ). So it’s a good thing that I don’t read fics in parts - otherwise none of them would ever get finished .

One thing I have noticed, however, is that the amount of feedback I receive on stories has declined since I first started writing. Maybe that’s because at first, people were trying to encourage a new author. Maybe people just aren’t sending feedback as much any more. Or maybe people aren’t enjoying my stories as much. I don’t know if others have noticed a decline in the inclination to send email or not - but that’s my experience.

Would I keep writing if I didn't get any feedback? Yes. Absolutely. I write because... well, I can't not write anymore. But would I write and post LnC fic if I didn't get any feedback? I'm not sure. It's an interesting question. I do know it would sure get discouraging fast.

MLT Said...
There could be another reason for the drop in feedback from Archived stories. Maybe they aren't being read...

Now, before the cyber-tomatos fly, let me explain that. I no longer read stories from the archive unless I am directed to them from these boards.

I find it much easier to pop in, see if anything I am reading has a new installment and pop out. I have gotten out of the habit of going to the archive to see what is new.

And even when I do, I rarely send FDK by email. FDKing by section seems easier than trying to FDK an entire story.

I can't even tell you the last time I went to the Archive to look at What's New. The last time I visited was to download all of Nan's Dagger series to refresh my memory for her latest installment for that series(210 pages Arial 8pt font, four columns, maxed margins!)

So, that is another possibility.

James

Not being a Republican , I think that if I read something the least I can do is give the writer feedback. My posts are not always 'Wow! That was wonderful!' and I think that my honest feedback has irritated a couple of the authors but I figure they should be glad to know someone was interested enough in their idea to read the work and comment on it.

That's an interesting point about honest feedback, Ethnica. When you're the author of a story, it's very difficult to stand back and remain detached when someone's posted something critical. Now, I'm not saying here that no-one should ever post any critical comments - quite the opposite. It's just that I've noticed this with myself a couple of times. Someone will post something quite critical - disagreeing strongly with a plot choice, questioning a character's behaviour or something - and, much as I like to think that I'm a grown-up and capable of taking it on the chin, I can get defensive. :p

And then, a few months later, I can read the same feedback thread and think: this is what I got so upset about? And I can realise that the poster actually had a point, even if I don't fully agree, or I'll realise that I over-reacted in my defensiveness.

So let's call that first response a knee-jerk reaction, Ethnica. Sometimes constructive criticism is very easy to take - sometimes it makes us slap ourselves on the forehead and exclaim, Why didn't I see that? And at other times it just makes us run for cover. Why? Because we're all human. But, please, carry on being constructively critical!


Wendy

ML, I'd definitely say you're a popular writer, with good reason! I have thoroughly enjoyed every one of your stories that I've read.

Unfortunately, I find, for some strange reason, that I'm intimidated by longer stories. I happily go to the library and check out and slowly read books which are 400 or more page long, yet 100 pages of fic on a computer screen is daunting to me. Printing would probably help with that psychological barrier, but then I'd have to feel guilty about using up all those pages...

That's why I like reading on the boards. I can read in small chunks. Far less intimidating.

Obviously, that's just me. I don't think, however, that James and I are alone in doing our primary reading on the boards.

Now, reading on the boards doesn't work well for you. That's fine. Yet another reason we should be glad the archive exists.

I don't think that's a good reason, however, to cut yourself off from a chunk of your potential audience.

I'll tell you for myself that I've often been disappointed that you don't choose to post your fics here. I love reading them, and it would be a lot easier for me to do so in this format. I keep telling myself I have to go to the Archive to read them (and a whole bunch of others), but somehow, even though I know I'd enjoy it, I just never get around to doing so. Heck, I still need to finish Lifeflight. I was really into the first half of it before RL forced me to drop off the face of the boards.

Anyway...

The reasons you list for not posting on the boards are:

1. You're not ready to start posting until you've already finished the story.

That's fine. Think of us as Gamma Readers. Finish the story, then start posting in chunks. It works. Trust me. I'm fairly sure there are other authors who do the same. You'll get feedback on each part, and maybe someone will say something that will spark a new thought and you'll find yourself with an even better story. I've seen that happen, too. Most recently, I saw it happen in CC's In a Better Place, where reader discussion picked up a minor plot hole, and patching that hole gave CC an opportunity to create a very cool moment of characterization. I've also seen cases of "wow, this is great, but wouldn't it be even better if..."

2. You're nervous about getting (or not getting) feedback.

Well, this takes us right back to the topic of this thread. My reading and posting habits are based largely on quality. I'll read a story if I like it, and I'll post if I really like it. I'm more likely to post if I have something original to say (I hate "me too" posts. Even though I know saying something is better than saying nothing at all, it's still a barrier I have to overcome before I'm willing and ready to post), but "how good is the story?" is the biggest factor to me.

Now, whether or not I've enjoyed an author's work and style before does influence my decisions on whether or not to try a new story. Subject matter counts, too. Yvonne is one of the best writers in the fandom in terms of quality, but I simply don't like reading tearjerkers. There's enough pain in RL for me that I look for my leisure reading to be of a generally happier tone. So, knowing that I appreciate Yvonne's quality of writing, I'll be more likely to give her stories a look. Knowing that she tends to write stories which deal with subjects I find less than pleasant means that I'm also more ready to pass them up after giving them a try.

Going briefly back to ML in specific, I can say that I honestly don't think FDK would be a problem for you. If you don't believe me, let me point out the number of ribbons below your name on the archive, and that's with the reduced readership from not posting on the boards.

Now, I'm not saying you have to post here. If you're really not comfortable with it, that's your decision. I think, though, that if you gave it a try, you'd be pleasantly surprised. I, for one, would like to see it happen.

Back to the subject of the thread... Actually, I think everything I wanted to say has been said by someone else. (Which is, in part, why I hadn't posted ealier.) It's about the story first and foremost. Quality, style, content. If I like it, I'll read it. If I have something to say, I'll say it. (Though less so if that something is negative or has already been said.) If I don't like something, I'll stop reading. If I don't like the author, I'll admit that that knowledge can color my perceptions of the story. Ideally, it shouldn't, but I'm not perfect. Fortunately, there aren't many FoLCs whom I dislike.

Paul, posting from what appears to be the fringes of the "in crowd"

James and Paul, thanks for your comments. I'll consider posting my next story in parts. No promises. But I'll consider it.

Paul, it's not a concern about feedback that prevents me from posting in parts. I figure one or two people will probably enjoy my stories enough to post feedback. It's because I tend to get feeling sick to my stomach from the time I hear from Labby that my story has been sent for posting until about a week after it comes out. If I post on the boards, the sick feeling lasts that much longer .

I should also say a word about videos and trailers. I've loved the few I've seen. But I'm on dial-up (too cheap to pay for highspeed ), as a result, it takes a long time to download videos and trailers. So I seldom watch them. I know I'm missing a lot as a result. But I guess that's one of the disadvantages of being cheap .

James said:

Not going to lob tomatoes at you, James. But I do think stories on the archive are being read.

The archive home page gets more than 500 unique visitors daily, and on Sunday, the traditional update day, the count spikes close to 800. For those curious there's a free stats package tracking visits to the home page, and you can check out the numbers yourself. (Scroll to the bottom of the archive home page and click on the globe icon.)

A poll we did in 2002 asked archive visitors what other things they did online related to Lois & Clark. Options included things like "Visit other Lois & Clark fanfic Web sites" and "Participate in LnC fanfic message board discussions." Out of 1,121 responses, 252 said they visited other fanfic sites, and only 101 said they participated in fanfic message board discussions.

It's been three years, so those numbers probably don't accurately reflect the current archive readership, but I think the poll does show that most archive readers are lurkers. And unless they've ventured into message board threads like this one, they probably haven't digested how important feedback is to writers. And of those who do know, maybe they have very good intentions of sending feedback, but bad follow-through. (Nervous cough)

I just logged into the archive's server and downloaded this month's raw log file -- which is 89 megabytes and growing -- to poke around in. Among other things, the log file shows how many times each file on the archive has been accessed. Because of its size, I hardly ever look at it. (And my computer, which likes to hang onto as many of its system resources as possible, thanks me.)

So, are ML Thompson's archived stories being read? Drumroll, please.

So far this month, "Curiosity Killed the Reporter" has been accessed 690 times. And her "Cause and Effect" (one of my all-time faves!) more than 80 times. I was going to look up some more stories and authors, but my computer threw in the towel and demanded a reboot.

Lurkers read. A lot! And they must really like what they read because they KEEP ... COMING ... BACK. They love the stories but end up neglecting to send feedback, for whatever reason, even though they may have good intentions of doing so. As one of the most well-intentioned lurkers (and worst feedback-givers) around, I can say that with some conviction -- and a lot of embarrassment.

I hope authors aren't getting discouraged, thinking that they're pitching their stories out into the void, because that's not the case. 89 megabytes and my gasping system resources are begging to differ.

Maybe what we need is some kind of Feedback Amnesty Day.

Best wishes,

-- Lauren

ROTFL, Lauren. And wow! Even I didn't realise that many people read the Archive stories. I mean I knew they were being read, but...690?!

Holy cow!

LabRat

690 times? Wow! I guess one or two people are reading my story. It's also amazing to think that a story that is several years old is still being accessed 80 times a month. That's really encouraging, Lauren. Thanks for the information.

I do remember back before I ever posted my first story, back when I was an official lurker, reading on the top of some stories: 'feedback welcome' and thinking to myself: 'what could I possibly say that this great author would want to hear? I'm nobody.' And so it went until after I got my first feedback . Funny how your perspective can change .

REM

Reading, Enjoying -- MORE!

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

REM... I like that! Thanks, twin!

PJ

I JUST now got to this thread--though now that I saw it, I see what the discussion was on IRC the other night. I voted Other for both, and my explanation is below.

I don't think popularity is based on any one thing. I lean more towards quality, but then I'll have to also add in Kerths, not because of the award per se, but because they are advertising. Someone who only has time for so many might choose to check out a story that won a Kerth because it has to have some real quality to it to get the award. The names are familiar, then, to anyone who was at the ceremony, and so on the awareness level of that writer's work and existence grows. Personal attitude may have something to do with it, but I can separate that completely from what I read. There are people I've had good conversations with whose fics I'm not fond of, and people I've never talked to, or haven't gotten the greatest impression of, whose fics I really like. That said, my favorite authors still are that mostly because of the high quality of their work, and only partially because of the good impression I had of them. And due to the high quality of the work of many authors, my favorite authors stand out from the rest because of the type of stories they produce. I'll give an example: Wendy is one of my favorite authors not only because of the exceptionally high quality of her writing, and a tiny bit because she's a neat person, but also because her stories are so intense--I like them for what they make me feel, how I feel immersed in the world she's writing. They tend to be emotional, and several of them deal with my favorite premises for L&C fanfic. It's obvious, therefore, why I read her work whenever I see it--immediately.

As for fdk, that comes down to one thing: I am just plain BUSY. Trying to do too much all the time--mostly the problem is that I don't pay enough attention to real life, and too much to the Internet, so I am always catching up with what I *should* be doing. Thus said, I tend to focus more on activities for my enjoyment to the exclusion of anything that wouldn't be pure enjoyment (a bit selfishly). Giving fdk is not just enjoyment, for I do like giving it, it's also work, and most of the time I'm reading fanfic because I'm tired or I don't *want* to do what I should be doing. So that's really my fault. If the author's on IRC at the time I finish the fic, I will almost always say something to them, about whatever I loved about it. Some authors I started fdk-ing whenever they came on--going through all their fics and telling them why I liked each one. But anything else is too much work. I feel like in this fandom I have to say something more than "great story, PWMS!" And since I seldom, if ever, read fanfics on the board, and then only ones from my favorite authors 'cause I can't wait for them to be on the Archive, I rarely post fdk.

Reading isn't a problem, though. I read very fast, and except for cases of very poor quality, I've read up through the letter K on the Archive, and am now working my way through L when time permits. I keep an eye on the newly posted fics and read every one of those, whether I am fond of that premise or not (with a few exceptions). Again, I will probably not seek their fdk threads out on the board, or write an e-mail to the author, unless I was *really* moved by the fic. I just don't have time for it.

And there's my ramble on this subject . . .

/me stands up and nervously addresses the group

My name is Helga and I am a serial lurker.

I remember, way back when, being blown away Labby's first fics.

I post now though. Or at least I try too, time isn't always on my side. (Hence me being late to this particular meeting of FARCE).

I liked lurking, it was safe and cosy, and I thought there was enough life in this fandom that it didn't need little old me in there too. I didn't have anything to say that wasn't already being said.

There are two reason why I stopped lurking. The first I've already told before, but I'll tell it again, cause it was an important lesson for me:

(And I'm being really lazy here and copying and pasting from the original thread...)

About 4 years ago, as well as lurking here, I lurked on another email list as well, connected to an organisation I volunteer for. It is a very high volume list and lurking is acceptable there because the list was mostly for passing information on to people who needed it. However, there was a core group of people who posted regularly, and would frequently post off topic, which was also acceptable.

One of these members was pregnant and the baby was overdue, and whilst she was waiting to go into labour she sent a lot of emails to the group; several a day. She was getting more and more impatient, and everyone else sent her loads of messages of support and suggestions that might encourage the baby to show it's face anytime soon. There were a lot of old wife's tales being thrown around, and it was all lots of fun.

Then her emails stopped and she wasn't heard from for a while. I guess everyone assumed that she'd had the baby and was too busy enjoying being a mum to send an email. A few weeks later she finally did post, the baby had died a few hours after being born.

Then I suddenly realised why lurking was wrong. Through their emails I had got to know the people on the group well, but they had no idea who I was. And now I wanted to tell this person how sorry I was to hear about her baby, but I was a complete stranger to her. Would I make it worse for her if I did send a message? I was a stranger intruding on a very personal, private moment.

I didn't send an email in the end, I didn't want to take the chance that I could make it worse. As if it could be any worse. I still don't know if I did the right thing.

Well, I decided to stop lurking then.

Especially here... Lois and Clark was the first thing I looked up on the internet. I had been lurking online in the fandom for years. Since Zoom's boards were created I had got to know a lot of the people in the fandom, from their posts, their discussions and the fics they wrote. But none of them knew me from Adam. And aside from anything else, when I put it like that, it sounded a bit creepy. (And I don't want people who lurk to get upset about that, I'm not calling you creeps, and I know people have really good reason why they do it, it's just my take on things )

The second reason why I post feedback is because I get a huge amount of enjoyment out of fanfic, and the writers get very little in return. They're not professionals, this is their hobby. The very least I can do is let them know that I enjoyed reading the story.

And that's also why I try to read every story, and I'm not too bothered about quality of writing. Because people write for fun. This isn't school, I'm not going to pick apart their grammar and spelling.

I always say thank you when I give feedback. My Gran would be very proud

Time is an issue for me, and that's one reason why I usually only post feedback when the story's been completed.

I'll stop talking now. I've got a Reader's Choice Questionnaire to complete that's been sitting on my hard drive for two years.

Today I'm going for immersion therapy as part of my FARCE recovery plan...

Helga

Yes, late to this one, but I was otherwise occupied in Europe.

I do have a bit to say on this matter, though, so if you'll excuse me for being late...

I'll address the stuff more relevant to the poll first, then I have a bit to say about the popularity issue.

I have to agree with Wendy here. As most of you know, at times I spent a great deal of time on my feedback. I'd be far less likely to leave feedback at all if I didn't have any idea whether or not the author even appreciated it. That's not to say that I expect the author to give me such a detailed response, but I do have to say just a "Thanks, Sara" is really good to read.

I leave feedback for a few reasons.

1- I know that I appreciate (though can't say I expect) feedback when I write something, so I like to give that back to the authors when I read their stories.

2 - I've found I can't help it now. I like to feel as if I'm interacting with the author and/or characters as I'm reading. How can I not yell at Clark and call him a lunkhead when he does something stupid? How can I not tell Lois, "Don't worry! Trust him!! I promise it'll work out okay! "? And what I enjoy doing the most is letting the author know just how effective his or her writing is. I'll proudly snuffle, sob and grab the tissues when something hits me right in the heart. Shouldn't the author know that s/he made someone cry real tears (or even just coming close) when s/he put so much work into creating such emotions? Shouldn't the author know when the reader honestly laughed out loud (or nearly fell out of a chair )? Or how about that one sentence (or one of many) that an author writes and is just so darned proud of, hoping that it will stand out to someone else as well?

Well, that's just me. And now that I've veered dangerously off topic...

What I choose to read/watch and why:

I used to have the mindset of not reading anything until it hit the archive because, honestly, I was a little lost when it came to keeping track of all the different stories. And it was daunting to see so many. Not to mention the fact that I knew I'd have trouble keeping all the stories straight in my head.

Then came the day that I saw one of my favourite authors had written a sequel to one of my favourite stories. She wasn't finished with it and she was posting it on the boards to start with. I was a goner then.

Gradually, I got over my fears <g> and started reading the stories from authors that I knew I loved. I was disappointed once by an author that still hasn't finished the story, but other than that, I've been pretty satisfied in that department.

I'll be honest and say that I only read posted stories on the basis of who the author is and whether or not I've like his/her work in the past. I just don't have time to read them all. There are times when a title will catch my eye and I'll open that up and usually get sucked in. Other times, if my schedule allows, I'll open up the stories that are one part long, knowing that I can finish that easily and not feel committed to something longer. On occasion, I'll try to look at newer authors' work to help encourage more writers. I wish I had time for them all! (I'm still behind on even the Best New Author nominees for the past few years... *sigh*)

Another factor will influence whether or not I read a story on the boards - recommendations, usually from friends on IRC. I'm not usually disappointed by those, as my friends and I tend to share the same taste in stories.

One more factor... which I believe ties into the stigma of popularity that's been mentioned in this thread... I admittedly will tend to read stories written by friends. Not only for support, but also because, as I said earlier, we tend to share like interests in the types of stories that we read... which of course extends to the kind of stories that we write. This isn't always true. I can't say I'd read a crossover story written by a friend if I didn't have the time; I just don't care for them.

As for the popularity issue...

I'm one that's well aware of "in crowds", mostly from having been on the fringes and also completely outside of the realm of the "cool, popular" people. To be honest, I felt a little of that "clique" atmosphere when I first got to these boards. Well... hanging out for a bit longer, and getting to know everyone a little better, I find that's just not true. That clique feeling I got wasn't really what it appeared. What I realized was that there are hundreds of people on these boards and there are a few different groups of people that are fortunate enough to have found great friendships here in this folcdom. I count myself among those people and I'm grateful for it. If that makes me now part of one clique or another in other people's eyes, that's unfortunate, and I'm sorry if anyone feels excluded.

All I have to say about that is - if you want more folc friends, email someone who made a post or a video or story that you liked or agreed with. Helga made an excellent point. If you feel you're on the outside of a group, don't lurk. Be involved. This isn't to say that lurkers aren't cool. Not at all, but think of it this way: You can't be a wallflower at a school dance and complain that you never had any fun. Be proactive. (This coming from the insecure girl who did just that ). On the other hand, there are some that are perfectly happy watching everyone else dance.

TJ said this:

I can only speak from my observations on this one, but I don't think that's true. I sure hope my friends would respect me enough to be honest when giving feedback, and I believe they are. There's no point in posting feedback for your friends if you're just doing it to up their post count or what have you. It'd be as bad as telling your friend that she looks really great in a dress that's too small for her simply because your friend is proud of the 10 pounds she just lost. It isn't right, and I'd like to think better of our folcdom.

As for the "similar interests" you mention, I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Sorry for the late response, but this is an issue that still kinda bugs me.

Sara

This is where I feel that cliques are misunderstood. I think there are very few of us out there who don't get that feeling when they join a new forum. Or new group or new society or new club or whatever. It's an entirely natural thing and why it would be any different here on the mbs, I have no idea.

Obviously, if a group of people have been hanging out together for a long time they'll have amassed a shared history and it's a rare group that can keep that entirely out of the equation when posting.

When I first joined a Stargate forum, I was puzzled by constant references in posts to someone called Luke. There was no SG1 character called Luke that I was aware of. What the heck were these people talking about?

Did this make me feel out of some strange loop that everyone else was in? Of course. The solution? I asked what it meant. Turned out to be a character in one regular and well-known poster's fanfic. Mystery solved and I no longer felt on the outside looking in. Gradually, as I spent more time there, I felt less like the 'new girl'.

I think that experience is one that's also more than common. It would be a rare person indeed who didn't feel strange and awkward and out of step joining a new community. Most get over it naturally as time goes by and they grow into sharing that history with their fellow board members.

I think the important thing is how you react to new members who ask the questions. That's the only difference I really see around the net. There are forums who are incredibly mean to newbies - quite unnecessarily imo and that's something that really ticks me off when I see it happening. The ones who bark that this post is in the wrong place. Or who complain that this question has been asked ten times before and why didn't they read through 10,000 posts to check that before posting?

On these mbs, I think we've proved more than once in the past that generally speaking we treat newbies with respect and welcome. And that's the important difference for me. The thing that really matters. Making it easy for new members to ask the questions that make them feel less out of the loop without making them feel silly or that they're about to be jumped on.


LabRat

You know, the more I think about this the more offensive it sounds. Maybe you didn't mean it that way, TJ, but it's not just offensive to whichever writer you were talking about (and, trust me, you have dozens of writers wondering if you meant them ), but it's also offensive to everyone who posts feedback on these boards.

Speaking personally, I have never posted feedback I didn't honestly mean. I just couldn't - I find it impossible to say I like something if I don't. I've never been the kind of person who'll say she loves a friend's new outfit if I hate it. (That cost me a lot of brownie points with friends when I was a teenager. ). I'm too bluntly honest for my own good. Plus, if I raved about a story I thought was okay at best, sooner or later I'd get found out. I run into a lot of people on IRC. The author would ask me what I particularly liked, or ask my opinion of some part of the story. I couldn't keep up the pretence of loving it if I didn't.

I have a lot of friends in FoLCdom - people I consider my friends through chatting to them on IRC, exchanging emails with them and even meeting them. Recently, one friend posted a story after a long hiatus. It just wasn't the type of story to appeal to me so, even though I was delighted to see her writing again, I couldn't post to say I loved it because... I didn't. If a story doesn't appeal to me, I won't post feedback - once or twice in the past I've explained why a story doesn't appeal, but I'm never sure if authors want to hear that, and anyway, if lots of other people like the story just the way it is who am I to disagree?


I find it hard to believe that anyone else here would post feedback they don't mean, either. Life's too short; there are too many great stories to read to waste time raving about any which appeal less. Maybe what appears to be undeserved feedback is simply the consequence of different tastes? I've seen rave feedback on stories which don't appeal so much to me - all it means is that a story I don't care for really appeals to other readers. Just like movies I haven't liked are at the top of other people's favourites list. That's the way tastes work - and wouldn't it be boring if we all liked the same things?


Wendy

Then you should probably stop thinking about it. My thinking is that we've poked this dog to death, and it's not biting anymore.

TJ

Well, you know, the trouble with throwing stones into ponds (to change the metaphor) is that it makes ripples. And those ripples keep on going whether you throw in any more rocks or not. Simple physics. It does damp down after a while, of course (faster when everyone else stops throwing rocks, too *coughwendycough*), but... If you don't want to deal with the ripples, TJ, you might want to be more careful about throwing that first rock.

PJ

Requested emails were replied to, I don't know what else is required of me to "cool things down" as was suggested in the nKerth thread. Did you guys get said emails?

TJ/who's starting to think this continuance is a matter of getting the last word in, and, since I got my point said, is now officially concluding her posting on this poll topic for now and forever, so whoever comes next...it's all yours!! Enjoy!!

I know I'm coming into this topic pretty late, but I don't check the boards very often anymore and just happened to run across it today.

I don't really have any desire to address the "popularity contest" issue that is really what started the topic (sorry, MDL). But others have much more eloquently said my piece: every group has groups (note the plural - there is not only one clique within this or any fandom) within it. Cliques are not inherently evil. And I really do believe that the vast majority of readers (in or out of whatever "cliques" there may be) read the stories they like and leave feedback whenever they feel inspired to do so. That is just how it should be. No one is required to read anything. No one is required to leave feedback for any story - no matter how they feel about it. The point of all of this is supposed to be recreation. And I can think of no one who purposely leaves inflated feedback for "the cool kids" or refuses to leave feedback for "the uncool kids".

What I'm more interested in is the issue that LabRat brought up about feedback in general, when she said:

My perspective is a little different here, as someone who came into the fandom at a time when feedback was spiking at unprecedented amounts. When we first opened these boards (which was not long after I joined the fandom - and the world of fandoms in general), it seemed like feedback was coming in faster than we knew what to do with it. I was very lucky to have had some of my earliest stories bring in an amazing number of comments per section. I had started writing purely for my own entertainment, but once the siren song of feedback began, I couldn't resist the incessant clicking of the "refresh" button.

Then there was a slowing down. We settled into our new home and became less frantic. Feedback was still comparatively abundant, but not quite as abundant as it had been. And so I (and so many others) wondered if it was the quality of our work that was suffering. I began comparing the amount of feedback I got to the amount I'd received on previous stories, and then to the amount that other authors were currently receiving. Suddenly - through no one's fault but my own - what used to be fun, became stressful.

Eventually, I faded away from the fandom. (Just for the record, this had nothing to do with feedback <G>) My interests shifted to other shows and, for the first time, I began exploring other fandoms. And, for the first time, I really appreciated the incredible amount of unity in the LnC fandom. Our archive in unlike ANYTHING else out there. (Those of you who have never done so, please go check out some of the archives for other fandoms. Then come back and thank LabRat and Lauren and all the GEs and everyone else involved in the archive.) I was overwhelmed trying to figure out where to submit stories. And once I did, I was underwhelmed with the response I got. I went from receiving dozens of comments per section to a handful of emails for an entire story. I was quite discouraged and considered giving up writing for that fandom. And then I realized that I didn't want to quit. I liked the fandom, I liked writing the stories, and I although I cherished what feedback I did get, I didn't NEED it. Just writing it made me happy.

Since then I've moved on to yet another fandom or two. And in the last few months I've written one story and made at least half a dozen videos that I haven't submitted anywhere. I send them to friends who I think will appreciate them, and I watch them myself quite frequently. There are places I could submit them, and maybe someday I will. But for now, I'm quite happy enjoying them this way.

I discovered what Rat is talking about, the joy of creation for creation's sake. And it's very sweet.

I will always love this fandom for giving me my start and teaching me so many things about writing. (Not to mention all the wonderful friends I made.) But I have to say that I am almost glad to be writing for fandoms now that don't have such a great community, because now I do things entirely for my own edification. I certainly am not advocating everyone abandon feedback altogether - it's a wonderful thing. I just hope that everyone who feels neglected, will try to look past the lack of feedback and remember why the started creating in the first place.


Annie (who apparently decided that she would make up for months of silence by writing a ridiculously long post. My sincerest apologies.)

Well, I'm a lurker. Additionally, I don't see the dates on your posts or your avatars. I never look at the author, at least not until I read the first part of the story. I don't post feedback, because I'm still trying to build up the never and originally I planned that my first post would be a beta-request, alas, it didn't come to pass. Btw, I usually never read the FDK folders.
Authors I already read stories by are more likly to get picked up on archive updates, but on the board only the stories influence whether I'll continue reading or not.

Not responding makes me feel I bit guilty, too, since I do enjoy getting feedback myself, but L&C isn't my primary fandom and I'd rather put my energy into a fandom that is a lot less explored.
In the fandom I usually haunt I'm currently the most prolific writer, but feedback usually comes by two or three people, and currently even they don't say anything. I started writing because I didn't like the three or so stories available in my fandom. I didn't really get feedback to the first stories I wrote, although that might have been due to the fact, that the stories were up in English on a French site, while the oneswho actually would respond were all German (fandom is small you got to make do with what you have).
I made it a premise to write for me and not for the feedback and I want honest feedback, too. I once commented on a story and got told by another person that I shouldn't critique, because the author had struggled so to write something and would know better than I which words she wanted to use - I ran into three ambiguities on the first page alone - story is currently down for reworking (and the author of said story never even responded to our heated debate) Such things make me question feedbacks, it is nice to get 'Oh, my gosh, that's so great', but I saw this really big logical flaw in my story after posting, and nobody picked up on it. They all just cheered, I considered holding the story hostage till I got some negative feedback, the story couldn't have been that great.
I know that my stories get read, but I really would like to know whether people like them or whether they think the premise to outlandish. When I start to write, I had decided that the first kiss would come after at least 50,000 words and that I would write no next-gen stories (while the fandom didn't have the next-gens, it had the much to fast romances, that relationship can't be easy to resolve), well, within the first two hundred words I had not only implied that the two of them had slept together practically the show ended, no I also wriggled in a daughter. So much for good intention.
Feedback usually doesn't discourage or encourage me, it just sometimes gives me new ideas.
And I expect to get some feedback on my 10,000 words story, because parts of the fandom are really gentle and I'm not very nice with the story. (Okay, feedback does encourage me, I really do want to see what they have to say when they see the sequel to that story, it'll be even worse.)

So, I do like feedbacl, but I didn't write because of the feedback (unless I want to provoke a reaction), I usually try to post feedback (just not for L&C), and while giving feedback, I try to keep the author in mind, since some of them have to be treated more gently then others.


I have a few old videos, but nothing new; reasons: slow connection, no real interest in videos, enough other stuff to watch.

Greetings,
Chaos

Well, welcome, Chaos - and congrats on delurking. <g>

I found your post very interesting, but this in particular struck me:

Oh, I wouldn't necessarily draw that conclusion. Readers and feedback come in many variations and some of your more undemanding readers just won't care about plot holes at all. So you will get some who won't pick up on that kind of thing - it doesn't have to mean that your story is bad.

You might also want to consider that as your fandom is so small you're not getting a spread of feedback that would give you a better picture - for example if you had 30 readers offering fdk it's more likely that one of them would be the type of reader who would pick you up on a plot hole, whereas only getting two or three comments in total narrows the odds of finding a demanding reader. Also, from the rest of your post, it seems as though your fandom currently has a culture of not critiquing stories, but simply offering praise. A reader may have noticed your plot hole but been afraid to say so, for fear of provoking the same reaction you did.

Nor do plot holes necessarily mean a bad story. There are few authors out there who haven't, in the heat of the moment, sunk deep into telling their story, failed to see the wood for the trees and made some booboo. That's why beta readers - who usually point these things out before you embarrass yourself in public - are worth their weight in gold.

LabRat

Usually, I read here OR on the Archive. I used to just read the Archive; then I came to the boards for a while. Then there wasn't anything being posted at the moment that I really cared much about reading as soon as possible (sorry!), so I went back to just hitting the Archive every week. Then something was being posted (Nan's new Home story, I think -- the series that got me into fanfic, what can I say?) that drew me back to the boards and I started reading here again.... But since most things going to the Archive show up here first, now I'm back to not visiting the Archive.

And consequently didn't even notice there was a new MLT story. Hm.

Maybe authors who choose not to post story parts to the boards should instead post an announcement that they've got something new up?

As to feedback, I leave it if I've got something to say -- I'm usually quiet when I'm just reading and enjoying. Now, I'll post when something leaps out at me -- the nFic story where L&C had been making love every four minutes for eight years, and Clark couldn't figure out why Lois was tired, for example.