Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Fun with Polls Popularity and Feedback.

For me, when it comes to fanfic and videos, quality = popularity. You read something, you like it, you're impressed. That person posts something else, you'll remember the first one and go look at the new one. So on and so forth, and you have a popular author/poster. On the same scale, you can also get the infamous.. the ones that you've read/seen one of, wasn't impressed, gave them a few more chances, and then stayed as far away as you could.

For posting feedback.. I admit it, I'm slack. I'll read something, be really impressed, and then move on. If I guilt-trip myself enough, I'll post feedback, or if something really impressed me. If it's one of the authors I talk with regularly, I'll make a comment straight to them. Otherwise, it's on to the next fic (I'm such an addict).

Actually, I have to say I feel very guilty about this. It's something I noticed I was doing just recently and hadn't realised I was doing until then. But I have developed - for no good reason that I can think of - a habit of hardly going into the Challenge forum these days. Absolutely no idea why. I think maybe I got into this bad habit during a period when not much was happening in there or there were only long stories I didn't have time to read and I stopped checking what was new as a result.

Anyway - gist of this - very, very bad Rat. Bad! /me slaps herself on the wrist. I'll try to do better in future.

Yvonne - sorry, I meant to respond earlier to your comment about my focusing on reading rather than feedback. I think this was because of what I was talking about earlier - this sense that feedback when you read a story is somehow expected these days. Because of that, I think the two have become inexorably linked in my brain as a result and are interchangable. So you should probably just read feedback for read and vice versa in my previous posts. <g>

LabRat (who says 'Ow! That wrist thing really hurt!' )

Here's a few random comments:

1. If it's enough for you ('you' being any writer) to know that there are people are out there reading your story, how about posting a poll like mine when you start posting your story? A simple 'Are you reading my story' would be enough. I guess we probably wouldn't want polls like that to become the norm, but now and then I think it might be educational.

2. Popular authors, whether that popularity is down to their attractive personality or their entertaining stories, were all newbies once - ie, they earned their popularity just as newbies do today. Yesterday's new author can easily turn into tomorrow's runaway success.

3. Erica mentioned poor Anna, who had to start her own feedback thread. Well, once upon a time, most of us, including me, had to start every single one of our feedback threads. It seemed like the only way to get any comments whatsoever, and we looked on with wonder (and yes, jealousy) at those handful of authors who commanded such respect and popularity that a feedback thread would pop up of its own accord mere minutes after they posted. So take heart, Anna and any others in a similar position - things do get better.

4. More on the 'getting better' theme - Laura is a shining example of an author who has progressed steadily up the ranks of popularity, due largely, at her own admission, to the improvement in the quality of her work. Yay, Laura! So, as Wendy says, it's a fact that quality and popularity go hand in hand.

5. Which is not to say that quality doesn't sometimes get overlooked, so you authors who just read that last paragraph and are now feeling miffed because I more or less just told you your writing sucks - not necessarily.

6. I wonder what MLThompson's take on all of this is? She's a popular writer yet she seldom posts any WIPs here - she sends most things straight to the archive and thus never gets any feedback on these boards.

7. Unlike Laura, my opinions about a writer's character never influence my opinions about their work. You could be an axe-murder and I'd still read your work if it entertained me. In fact, I've never understood this blurring of the lines between the artist and the work they create. For example, I'm pretty certain I wouldn't have liked Beethoven if I'd ever met him, but I love his music. I've a hunch I wouldn't really like Terry Pratchet, but I've read an awful lot of his books. Van Gogh? I'll pass on anyone who chops their own ear off, thank you very much, but I like a lot of his paintings.

Here endeth my ramblings.

Yvonne

YOU have a generous nature Yvonne; you're honest and take things at face value. Unfortunately, there are those that take one or two aspects of a writer's point of view and allow that to taint their own view of everything that writer produces.

TEEEEEEJ

All of this discussion about guilt is very interesting.

I know myself that I feel very guilty for a) not reading as much fanfic as I feel I should which leads to b) not leaving feedback as I feel I should.

But the question is, why do I feel guilt? Or rather, why do I feel "I should" do anything? Isn't reading fanfic something that people do for pleasure? At least, I don't know anyone who reads fanfic as part of their job or to get paid. Fanfic reading (and writing) is just one thing on a list of millions of ways that people spend their leisure time - a hobby.

But once a hobby becomes an obligation, it's no longer enjoyable. Once you feel that you *have* to read fanfic and then you *have* to leave feedback, the whole enterprise becomes another chore of your life, right?

Even so, I think the fact that feedback is the only *payment* fanfic writers receive has something to do with it. When you go to a bookstore or on-line and plunk down your $6.99 plus tax and shipping, you've done your part in the contract between reader and writer - they've written a story, you've paid them for allowing you to read it. After the check clears, the writer expects nothing more from the reader, nor does the reader feel she owes anything more to the writer.

Not so in fanfic-dom. Writers get no cash, yet readers get the enjoyment of the stories writers spend their time and energy writing. There is an extreme imbalance, and I think readers feel guilty. Writers may start off expecting nothing in return for sharing their stories; the act of writing was why they are in it in the first place.

But when some writers get lots of feedback and other writers get little to none, this imabalance is magnified. I mean, writer of Book A and writer of Book B both get their $6.99 per copy regardless of what the readers think about the respective quality. Not so in fanfic - if people like Fanfic A better than Fanfic B, they will leave feedback (read: pay) more for it than they will Fanfic B, and everyone, including the writer, can see this. Fanfic B writer feels devalued. She put in just as much time and effort into her story, yet Fanfic A writer is getting "paid" more.

I think the only way this situation will ever get any better is if fanfic writers go back to understanding that they are not getting paid in any way to write their stories, including in feedback currency. Readers shouldn't have to feel guilty if they've read a story and don't leave feedback - there is no law anywhere that states that this is an equitable agreement. Writers write stories that they can choose to share - freely - with readers. Readers can choose to read a story or not - guilt free.

We writers have to decide why we are writing and if we can be satisfied with a feeling of accomplishment or if we need the feedback as payment. If that payment is required, then fanfic has to be looked at as a business and writers will have to taylor their product to the marketplace, which means improving, offering stories that people want to read, and being willing to bend quite a bit.

I'm not saying wanting feedback is wrong - heck, I crave it as much as the next person. Just that we have to remember that this is not a job, this is a labor of love.

I think a good reason I don't make more time to read fanfic is because I feel guilty if I choose to read Story A over Story B and even more guilty if I don't leave feedback. I have too many obligations in my life and don't want another one coming out of something that is supposed to be fun. If I leave feedback for someone because I'm inspired to do so for whatever reason, I sure hate that I feel bad that I didn't do the same for everyone else.

Lynn

Fascinating discussion, y'all Erica said:

and that jumped out at me because I pretty much always start my own feedback thread. That's getting to be less common these days, I guess, but I think of it as a courtesy to my readers.

I don't know if this is true for anybody else, but for me, starting a comments thread is more work than replying to a comments thread. Maybe it's because I have to come up with a folder title, and find it slightly intimidating -- those have been getting pretty elaborate lately! And then the first post of a thread has more visibility than any of the replies so I want to say something really clever or deep, which is not always possible. And then there's the worry that while I'm starting a comments thread, somebody else is *also* starting a thread for that story, and then we'll have two of them, which is just sloppy and (for me, anyway) embarrassing. Some days I don't let any of that worry me, but other days, it will hold me back, and I'll wait 'til somebody else starts it.

Anyway, I do find that I'm more likely to comment if the thread has already been started by somebody. And I don't see any reason why an author shouldn't start their own comments thread.

As for cliques... yeah, we have groups of friends who tend to hang out together, beta-read each other's stories, and have in-jokes. It's hard for me to judge, 'cause I'm on the inside, but I like to think that our group is very friendly and open to new people. The bad part of a clique, IMO, is when it becomes exclusive, and anyone not in the group is snubbed. I don't believe that's the case here. If someone thinks it is, I'd like to hear about it -- either on this thread or by email -- because I really hate that kind of behavior.

And as another random comment, looking back over a decade of fanfic-reading, I can think of at least two authors who really severely got on my nerves, but whose stories I still really enjoy. And I've had friends whose stories I wouldn't read or didn't like. Reactions to authors vs. their work tend to correlate, but not always.

PJ

I have read pretty much every story on the archive and have sent fdk to some although not all since that would require alot more time then I have. As for posting fdk on the board, if I am reading a story I almost always post fdk.

On the poll I chose that popularity had to do with success of past stories. If I have enjoyed an author's previous stories I am very likely to read anything new they have written. However, it doesn't mean I don't read stories by new authors or others I have never heard of. I can't really explain why I do or don't read certain stories on the board. I've never thought about it too much because those I don't read in parts I usually read on the archive once it's finished.

As for MVs, my connection (although claiming to be fast) is quite slow. I download them when I have the time and will post fdk for those I watch.
I usually decide which ones to watch by the title. I mostly like sappy videos so I mainly stick to those.

I hope that all authors/video makers out there who do not receive much fdk don't get discouraged. I have read/seen many great stories/mvs that have gotten hardly any fdk. It is unfortunate and I know if I ever get the courage to post one of my stories I would be hurt by not receiving any comments, which is why I do my best to always post.

Jackie (aka Kaylle, who thinks this is her longest post yet!)

TJ, the problem with blanket statements like you made there is that they're completely unspecific. You could be referring to anyone. And that leaves everyone wondering if you're talking about them or someone they know. Everyone. Yes, I wondered if you meant me. I'm talking to a friend on IRC, and she wondered if you meant her.

Thankfully, I realised that I couldn't think of anybody who fits the bill. My friend reassured me that my grammar's not bad even when I don't get my stuff pre-edited, so it can't be me!

Those who said popularity comes from quality summed up my opinion about popularity in general, so I won't ditto them. But I'll just say their opinion on the subject is "popular" with me.

Kaethel

First of all: Erica, thank you so much for your words They really mean a lot to me.

Moving on to other stuff now:

Well, I don't have personal knowledge of how things used to be "back then". But for me (I don't know if others would agree with me), the pleasure of sharing is a synonym to the pleasure of having people read your work. A professional writer may only get negative comments from the critics and never receive a feedback letter from a fan (although I'm sure many fans try to contact their favourite authors), but a) even if only the critics have read it, then it *has* been shared because someone *did* read it, for one reason or another, and b) they know how their book sells. So, even if they don't receive comments about it, they know that some people have taken the time to read it.

In FoLCdom, however (I don't know of any other fandoms), there's no such way of knowing a story is being read. We don't have people criticizing stories, and our boards don't have the "Viewed *that many* times" function. So the only way of knowing that the sharing we do is really sharing and not giving something no one wants to take, is seeing what feedback our story/video gets.

Unless that's just the Internet girl in me speaking

Now, there's a difference between what different people consider feedback and what they think its role is. I, personally, consider feedback any kind of comments - good, bad, you name it - which is why I give it the role I explained above. Other people have other views on feedback and thus give it different roles. But, since a story of mine and its lack of feedback were the inspiration for this poll, I'd like to talk about it specifically. (Or, I'd like to try, although I'm finding it hard to put my thoughts into words.)

Well, I posted this story, and for the next two or three days it hadn't received any feedback at all. In this case, I wasn't waiting for feedback as confirmation that someone had read it; its being a challenge response made me think that some people interested in the challenge would read it anyway. Besides, it really is a weird story *and* it has a big part with a Charmed villain I didn't take the time to present properly, so I wasn't that much disappointed by the lack of feedback. The thing is, I found myself in a position where I knew some people had read it and deliberately were not posting feedback. I was neither fishing for nice words about it nor for more readers, but I wanted to know *why* people who had read it were not posting feedback. So I opened a fdk folder and told the readers I wanted to hear *any* comment they might have. And, when Erica posted, I was proven right: someone *had* read the story and had something to comment on it; something I can take into account the next time I write something.

Had it not been a challenge-response fic, I wouldn't have started a fdk folder prodding people to post comments. It's one thing encouraging the readers to post feedback, and another, much different, encouraging people to become your readers. And, really (I don't know how that's gonna sound but I'll say it anyway), if there was a non-challenge-response that wasn't getting any comments at all, mine or not, I would think that no one read it - or maybe no one read it till the end. (Now, what I would do about it is a different story and I don't think I need to go there.) Which is why I like leaving a post behind when I've read a story (and have more than just bad comments to say).

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

EDIT: Just read Pam and Yvonne's posts, and I would like to point out that the writers who start their own fdk thread usually do it the moment they post their story/part, and not a couple of days later (like I did in that instance)
And, I don't usually start my own fdk threads in case anyone likes coming up with original ideas for the title.

And yet the problem with me saying "so and so's storys are usually choppy with weak endings" may alienate me even further than saying there are cliques on the board and confessing that I am a Republican.

Tell you what, if anybody seriously wants to know what I think of their stories they can email me, but you know I got a funny feeling that the clique I'm refering to doesn't give a flip.

For your own peace of mind Kaethel, I've loved every story of yours that I have read even if I haven't posted a fdk.

TEEEEEEEJ

Yep, me too.

Yvonne

'Member this one, Yvonne? Not posted lightly. Meant every word. How about Addicted, Damaged? Are you remembering my feedbacks? wouldn't have typed it if I hadn't meant it.

TEEEEEJ

<shock> A Republican????? We'll never speak to you again! I mean, we certainly can't have your kind around here... oh, wait... I'm a Republican. So never mind

PJ
ducking and running very very fast...

TJ, I do remember those posts and really appreciated them. I'm just naturally a rather insecure person who goes into self-doubt mode at the slightest opportunity. Stupid, I know.

Yvonne

LOL! You may think it's a joke Pam but I took some heat over making Kerry a bad guy in one of my stories. Felt the burn for about 2 stories over.

TEEEEEEEJ/ saying pass the Calamine lotion.

TJ, if I remember correctly that had a lot less to do with you being a Republican than it had to do with maligning the character of a real life person in your story without any evidence that he was the way you portrayed him to be (making him an adulterer and philanderer)

As I recall, that's what many people objected to rather than your being a Republican per se. I think the response would have been the same no matter which politician you'd used, quite frankly.

I think people feel a little uneasy about using real people in that way, that's all. Certainly, I'm NOT a Republican (/me watches Pam be shocked at this revelation <G>), but had you used George Bush in the same way as you used John Kerry, I'd have felt just as uneasy with the portrayal to be honest.

LabRat

Honestly, I don't wonder. And who knows, I could be in that last of the Mohicans group who just writes to enjoy writing, but I've found the other piece of that puzzle is the fact that bottom line is, I don't care what people think of my work. And maybe that stems from the fact that as an artist, I can't afford to care. The thicker skin you have, the easier it is to jump back into the game when someone decides not to pick your ad or buy your painting. I think it's wonderful when someone leaves me a post or an email saying they liked my story, but it's not my wham-bam success story. Success is in the eye of the beholder.

No complaints from me!

JD

Nope, pretty certain politics have been an issue, because there is honest feedback happening and then there is "blowing sunshine" based on friendship/"similar interests".

However citing examples would be hurtful and discouraging.

Damn, what was this poll about again?

I gotta go get my hubby his Soprano's DVD, I'll come back in two hours.

TEEEEEEJ

I was asking myself the same thing, but if you like to keep sharing your ideas, I don't mind at all!!

MDL.

Hi

i just read a 1/3 of the first page of comments, sorry guys.

I didn't take the poll.

For me I have not posted my writing b/c I know they are horrid and I don't want to see the FDK

I put my videos up, not b/c I wanted FDK, but b/c I wanted to contribute something to the community - to keep it alive. I was nervous about what people would say, but I wasn't out to get comments.

I have said in the past why I don't comment as much as I used to:
-Too tired***, I injured my wrists for a few months, school, trips, LIFE!, working out, moved, too many pets, a husband, a pet that is too old and too sick and keeps living, BRing, I hate typing b/c I do that all day, I don't have the patience anymore...

With that said, why am I always saying I am bored and feel like I'm not accomplishing anything with my life...hmmm <me thinks>

Well there's part of my whinning list.

At least now I have a job where I am only asked to work 37.5 hrs a day (plus lunch = 8 :p ) so that has kicked in some free time.
I'm moving again, but a 5 min walking distance from work *yay* so that should free up some time!

My fingers feel like they are going to fall off - it is just too cold in this basement (no I cannot turn on the heat it's hot outside). I wish I could think of some great things to put in the FDK folder, but often I put it and I feel like I sound very dumb so I don't post it. And for some reason for the past few months when I do write something big, it doesn't get posted b/c my computer freezes or something...watch it's going to happen **now**....no... maybe **now!***

Well any ways - this is souding dumb now -