|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,797
Nobel Peace Prize Winner
|
OP
Nobel Peace Prize Winner
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,797 |
I saw this column in New York Times today, and I just had to share. And I'll quote the beginning of the column right here, too: The other day I had a conversation with a Beijing friend and I mentioned that Barack Obama was leading in the presidential race:
She: Obama? But he's the black man, isn't he?
Me: Yes, exactly.
She: But surely a black man couldn't become president of the United States?
Me: It looks as if he'll be elected.
She: But president? That's such an important job! In America, I thought blacks were janitors and laborers.
Me: No, blacks have all kinds of jobs.
She: What do white people think about that, about getting a black president? Are they upset? Are they angry?
Me: No, of course not! If Obama is elected, it'll be because white people voted for him.
[Long pause.]
She: Really? Unbelievable! What an amazing country! Ann
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 9,362
Boards Chief Administrator Emeritus Nobel Peace Prize Winner
|
|
Boards Chief Administrator Emeritus Nobel Peace Prize Winner
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 9,362 |
I had a wry chuckle the other evening while watching CNN. They were talking about the row over remarks that Virginians were 'racist' and the commentator referred to 'culturally conservative voters'. That's a new way of putting it.  I guess racist isn't PC these days.  LabRat 
Athos: If you'd told us what you were doing, we might have been able to plan this properly.
Aramis: Yes, sorry.
Athos: No, no, by all means, let's keep things suicidal.
The Musketeers
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 273
Hack from Nowheresville
|
|
Hack from Nowheresville
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 273 |
Doesn't it just show how far America has come in 50 years....
I still find it amazing that people would judge someone purely because of the colour of their skin. I don't understand why that would even weigh into a debate of why/why not to vote for someone.
The same goes for the female issue too. Why is it that 'not being a man' makes someone less capable of representing the people?
It is nice to know attitudes are changing enough in the US that equality gives people choice.
"He's my best friend, best of all best friends
Do you have a best friend too
It tickles in my tummy
He's so Yummy Yummy
Hey you should get a best friend too" - Toy Box
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,627
Pulitzer
|
|
Pulitzer
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,627 |
I still find it amazing that people would judge someone purely because of the colour of their skin. I don't understand why that would even weigh into a debate of why/why not to vote for someone. Oh, it makes me hide my face. I lived in a small town in Alabama for a number of years, and it recently got into an edition of...I think either the NY Times or Washington Post...because some of the people interviewed admitted to making their voting decision based on race.  JD
"Meg...who let you back in the house?" -Family Guy
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 145
Hack from Nowheresville
|
|
Hack from Nowheresville
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 145 |
I'm not naive enough to think that racism doesn't exist because it definitely does and I've encountered it numerous times.
The thing though I hate is that so many people are assumed to be racist just because they wouldn't vote for Obama. I remember reading a column in the Huffington Post a couple of months ago where the writer commented that if people (in both parties he specified) didn't vote for Obama then they were racist.
That brought me up short. I thought, "What the...?!" The writer couldn't conceive of anyone not choosing the candidate he endorsed unless they were doing so simply from the point of racism. He wouldn't even consider that the Republican Party didn't even have a black candidate. For him it was (pardon the pun) a black and white issue. Either you're an Obama supporter or you're a racist.
I know some people won’t vote for him due to racial issues, but I hate that everyone who doesn’t vote for him is instantly suspect.
I do have to admit though, that from a psychological standpoint the entire issue has been interesting to watch. I’ve observed co-workers engaged in political discussions and when the topic of people’s opposition to Obama is brought up racism is often one of the first things mentioned as to why they believed people refused to vote for him. This was the case no matter how thoughtful, well presented, or polite the argument against Obama was made.
The reason this was amusing is that a couple of months ago we had a very well spoken and intelligent medical student do a rotation in our department. He was Republican and was well versed in political thought. He made many arguments against Obama that were well thought out, backed up with facts to support his opinions, and were thoughtfully presented. And do you know that not once did someone mention racism to him. Not even when discussing why thought others would not vote for Obama.
The medical student, of course, was African-American. He didn’t say anything that anyone else hadn’t said before, but by virtue of his race the tradition rebuttals from those with differing viewpoints were never mentioned and it was actually funny to see people trying to scramble to find a well thought out response to his criticisms without resorting to the “R” word. They actually had to think and debate rather than pigeonhole the opposition.
It was somewhat fun to see the political correctness crowd hoisted by their own petard, so to speak.
Did is a word of achievement
Won't is a word of retreat
Might is a word of bereavement
Can't is a word of defeat
Ought is a word of duty
Try is a word of each hour
Will is a word of beauty
Can is a word of power
--Author Unknown
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 9,362
Boards Chief Administrator Emeritus Nobel Peace Prize Winner
|
|
Boards Chief Administrator Emeritus Nobel Peace Prize Winner
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 9,362 |
Such conclusions are just as racist as the other kind, imo, Michael. It's the same perception I hear implied constantly on US TV programs - that a huge vote from African-Americans is good for Obama. So, what...every African-American who cast a vote did so for Obama? When did they become a block vote, unable to choose for themselves but only voting for the black man because of his colour, rather than being individuals who could vote either way for a whole host of reasons? There was an interesting article on the BBC news website today on this issue. I just shook my head, open-mouthed, at the waitress. And as for the plastic surgery guy...words fail me. How do you counter such ignorance? Still, guess no one ever said that only the intelligent and informed could vote.  "I'm not voting for Obama, he's black."
Charles is a registered Democrat in Uniontown, Pennsylvania.
"If it wasn't for Obama I would vote Democrat. Blacks just cause trouble, that's the taste I've got in my mouth."
Race is the question mark hanging over this election.
Barack Obama is ahead in the polls. There's a widespread feeling now that the election is his to lose.
But there is something that is worrying Democrats. How accurate are the polls? How many voters are saying they will vote for Mr Obama because they do not want to be perceived as racist?
Once they enter the polling booth will it be an entirely different story?
Simply put, how many people out there think like Charles but are not admitting it?
Charles said the vast majority of his friends felt the same way as him.
Uniontown is a rural town in south-west Pennsylvania. Its countryside is breathtaking, particularly now as the leaves change their colour from green to gold to burnt red.
But the area is poor and unemployment is high. Traditionally it is staunchly Democrat - but race is an election issue.
At a local restaurant a friendly waitress started chatting to us. The conversation turned to politics.
She shrugged, she was not even sure when the election was to be held, she could not pronounce Mr Obama's name.
"I like McCain because I can say his name, so I'll probably vote for McCain."
She was not well informed, but her views were clear.
"He's from Africa or something. I don't even know where he's from. I know he grew up here, but he's not from here. I think American presidents should be from America."
These are not isolated opinions - just not often voiced publicly.
In the primaries 12% of voters across the state said race was a factor - and that is close to Mr Obama's current lead in the polls here.
Recently, Congressman John Murtha had this to say about his home state: "There is no question that western Pennsylvania is a racist area".
He did, however, predict that Mr Obama would still win the state, and he later apologised for the remarks.
The polls show Mr Obama is ahead in Pennsylvania, which also has a Democratic governor and traditionally huge Democratic majorities in the major cities - Pittsburgh and Philadelphia.
In Uniontown, of course I met Democrats who are voting for Mr Obama, and I also met a couple of Republicans who said they were voting Obama.
This is not about a town being racist, but rather how much the race issue is reflected in the polls.
At a local hunting shop there were a variety of opinions. Registered Democrat Tom Currens said he would vote for the Republican candidate John McCain, but not because he had a problem with Mr Obama's racial background.
Todd Hackley, a registered Republican said he would vote for Mr McCain and had this to say on the race question:
"Race is an issue, it has to be, not that we want it to be. My thoughts are that Obama will get as many votes from the blacks, as he will not get from the whites.
"I do believe there are a lot of whites who won't vote for him because of the colour of his skin, but I believe there are a lot of blacks who will vote for him because of his colour."
Todd has always voted Republican and when I asked him if colour was an issue for him he said it might have been years ago, but not now.
Brandon Hafield said said he was undecided who to vote for, but when I asked if Mr Obama was a patriot he said no.
When I asked if he was American, he said: "I think he tried to be, I don't think he is, he tries to put a good show for the people, but I don't think he is."
Local radio presenter Bob Fultz, who hosts a regular talk show, says prejudice is definitely present, even though few callers are willing to discuss it openly.
"White voters aren't saying what they really think, whether that's here in Fayette County or nationally. I had one caller who said he thinks Obama is Osama with plastic surgery."
However, Mr Obama has gained points for his perceived ability to handle the credit crunch - and Uniontown has its own financial woes.
Russ Mechling is a retired engineer who used to be the president of the local company Fayette Engineering. He is a registered Democrat who will be voting for Mr Obama.
"There is a little bit of a racial backlash, but I think it's becoming less and less as the economic situation gets worse and worse.
"I think that will probably cost McCain more votes than any other single factor." There are, of course, culturally historic reasons why a large number of Americans today are racist, it's an inevitable part of US history. I would like to believe those who say that it's dying out, that it's now mostly the older generation, that the new generation coming up makes it fade into obscurity each year. But what's shocked me during this election coverage has been just how blatant some of it is.  It would be an enormous shame if the Bradley Effect held sway - if only for the fact that it would be a shameful perversion of democracy - and I tend to think no one who wants to vote for Obama should believe the polls. If you want your man in office - get out and vote. Don't believe the hype! LabRat
Athos: If you'd told us what you were doing, we might have been able to plan this properly.
Aramis: Yes, sorry.
Athos: No, no, by all means, let's keep things suicidal.
The Musketeers
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,644
Pulitzer
|
|
Pulitzer
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,644 |
It's the same perception I hear implied constantly on US TV programs - that a huge vote from African-Americans is good for Obama. So, what...every African-American who cast a vote did so for Obama? When did they become a block vote, unable to choose for themselves but only voting for the black man because of his colour, rather than being individuals who could vote either way for a whole host of reasons? I'm all in favor of viewing people on their merits and expecting them to make up their own minds on things. It's been my perception, though, that to a large segment of the Democratic party, identity (race, gender, whatever) trumps everything. During the primaries, I saw articles exploring the dilemma of black women -- should they vote their race or their gender? The concept of voting for policies didn't even appear. And individuals who go against the official group position are traitors. Just ask Clarence Thomas. Or Sarah Palin, who last month was said to be "not really a woman." Identity politics (block voting) has been huge in the Democrat party for decades. This isn't new, but it's getting a lot more attention this time around than usual. Voting against a person simply because of their skin color is racist. And so is voting *for* someone for that same reason. It annoys me how the media condemns the first and celebrates the second. PJ
"You told me you weren't like other men," she said, shaking her head at him when the storm of laughter had passed.
He grinned at her - a goofy, Clark Kent kind of a grin. "I have a gift for understatement."
"You can say that again," she told him.
"I have a...."
"Oh, shut up."
--Stardust, Caroline K
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,994
Pulitzer
|
|
Pulitzer
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,994 |
Personally, I don't care what they look like, I just want a competent person in the White House.
Obama is too young & too liberal for my tastes (gee, I bet that last one didn't shock anyone, did it?)
James
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 145
Hack from Nowheresville
|
|
Hack from Nowheresville
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 145 |
It may simply be idealism as to the American people or perhaps cynicism regarding the news, but I have to wonder about the coverage of some issues. For instance, the article LabRat mentioned stated that 12% of the voters in the primaries had reported that race was a factor. When I read this a couple of things instantly came to mind.
1) That means 88% stated that it wasn’t a factor yet was the coverage the matter received representative of that percentage split or did the racist slant receive the bulk of the coverage thus creating a misperception of the issue? Unfortunately, not everyone hears the 12% qualifier. All they see is the heavy coverage of the racism issue and it gives the perception that it is larger than it is. Now bear in mind I’m not saying that 12% is acceptable as it’s certainly something that needs correction in the long term. I’m just saying that the 88% shouldn’t be downplayed and I feel that too often it is.
For example, look at the article at the beginning of this thread. That person obviously viewed the US as a racist nation. With potentially 88% not being racist (if you used Pennsylvania as a national representation) then where would they have gotten that perception? I would imagine that most citizens of other countries get their information about the US from our news programs. If the news is light on “news” and heavy on “slant” then the information they’re receiving that contributes to that perception is a prime example of the G.I.G.O. principle. Unfortunately, the axiom “If it bleeds, it leads” is still in play with most news organizations.
2) Having spent too much of my education engaged in research classes (which made both my head and my teeth hurt) I’m all too aware of how studies or polls can be influenced. Data gathering and data interpretation are often the two key points that get the most “spin” when it comes down to a study. For example, a question of patriotism might be included in a poll on potential racism in regards to Obama. The reasoning behind this might appear sound on the surface because the researcher is aware of the amount of misinformation out there regarding Obama’s religious beliefs as well as the negative connotations attached to his name thereby giving the matter a more “racial” slant. However, a person responding in the negative regarding a patriotism question might not be referring to race at all, but rather have issue with a particular ideology they may have interpreted as being espoused by Sen. Obama. Would that particular response be readily identified and thus excluded from the poll? Or, lacking any way to differentiate would it instead be included in the negative percentage and therefore inflate the results? It’s all in the methodology and that’s usually something we get only the sketchiest of information about if any at all.
I’ll use the ACORN issue as an example. There are some people that feel that ACORN as a whole is corrupt and other people who state that it was just individual ACORN employees who were being lazy and sloppy in their work that created the voter registration issues. If the latter is the case then could perhaps the same thing be possible with poll workers?
All I’m saying is that with the absence of Tim Russert I see very, very few news people left these days that just provide news. The vast majority of them are much more commentators and spin jockeys for their own ideologies than objective journalists.
My recommendation is to listen carefully to whatever is said and with a few grains of salt handy for when you spot flaws in the logic. Of course, I also recommend turning off the TV whenever one news personality begins interviewing another news personality. That’s always been a clue to me that all “news” regarding the subject has been exhausted and all that’s left is the spin.
Did is a word of achievement
Won't is a word of retreat
Might is a word of bereavement
Can't is a word of defeat
Ought is a word of duty
Try is a word of each hour
Will is a word of beauty
Can is a word of power
--Author Unknown
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,797
Nobel Peace Prize Winner
|
|
OP
Nobel Peace Prize Winner
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,797 |
Well... let me weigh in and say that I'm not aware that any Western European country has elected a Prime Minister or a President with a black or a brown face. Sure there is racism in the United States, but there most certainly is racism in Europe, too.
If Obama is elected, I am going to celebrate that as a triumph against racism - an American triumph against racism, I might add. But of course I dearly hope that Obama will prove himself to be a capable President, so that he didn't just get elected as a 'token black'. But actually, I think the American people have better discernment and better judgement than that.
Ann
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,384
Top Banana
|
|
Top Banana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,384 |
What I don’t understand is that everyone agrees it is a sign of ignorance and prejudice to assume that being a Muslim equates to being anti-American, or to being a terrorist. If a reporter for a small-town conservative newspaper were to go into some local area mosque and find a few people with radical anti-American views, and use these quotes in a newspaper article with the intent of “proving” that Muslims are all terrorists, this would only be held up as proof of the reporter’s own prejudice. Indeed, the reporter would most probably be called an Islamophobe and a hate-monger. Why, then, does no-one find this report equally reprehensible? Why is it considered legitimate to seek out those who harbor racism, and portray them as representative? Why is this not hate-mongering? Where is the indignation at the author of this piece of garbage? How dare he set about, in all his self-righteous liberalism, to prove that the rest of American is racist, based on a few anecdotal stories and quotes?
[Note: before posting this, I happened to go back to the original thread, and read Michael's second post. I found it interesting that I am one of those you talk about, Michael. I did not pick up on the 12% figure cited. Your point is well taken. This article leaves one with the impression that America is a very racist nation indeed.]
Regarding the Bradley Effect, the media has only served to increase this problem. Voters who have valid reasons for not voting for Obama (reasons which have nothing to do with his race), know that if they admit they will not be voting for Obama, they will be falsely accused as racists.
One final comment – regarding the woman who is quoted as saying, "He's from Africa or something. I don't even know where he's from. I know he grew up here, but he's not from here. I think American presidents should be from America." The writer makes the snide comment that this woman may not be well informed, but her opinions are clear. Actually, the woman is probably better informed than the majority of voters in America. There is currently a suit in federal court, brought against Obama by a fellow Democrat during the primaries. The suit claims that there is reason to believe Obama was born in Kenya. It is interesting to note that the judge ordered Obama to submit a copy of his birth certificate. Rather than comply, Obama instead hired a legal firm to submit a motion to dismiss. I have no idea why he doesn’t simply submit his proof of citizenship, but it certainly does make it look like he has something to hide. And as far as the woman’s claim that “I think American presidents should be from America,” this is not an example of ignorant xenophobia, as the article would seem to suggest. Rather, that is exactly what the Constitution of the United States says. Article II, Section I, No person except a natural born Citizen … shall be eligible to the Office of President.
"Hold on, my friends, to the Constitution and to the Republic for which it stands. Miracles do not cluster and what has happened once in 6,000 years, may not happen again. Hold on to the Constitution" - Daniel Webster
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,644
Pulitzer
|
|
Pulitzer
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,644 |
About the "not from here" part -- that's at least partially true. He had his first school years in Indonesia. My kids are in elementary school these days, and they're learning a ton about American history, geography, civics, etc. There's no particular reason an Indonesian school would cover much if any of that. (We don't teach much about their country, at least not in grade school, and fair's fair  ) I think this explains the "57 states" gaffe, and some others. I'm certain he's quite aware that there are only 50 states, but it's not reflexive, so when he's tired, he loses track. Anyway, in grade school he was presumably learning about Indonesia, and we know he attended Koran classes. That's a very different world-view than what my kids are getting. Whether any of that matters is a separate issue. But I don't see any reason it shouldn't be discussed. PJ
"You told me you weren't like other men," she said, shaking her head at him when the storm of laughter had passed.
He grinned at her - a goofy, Clark Kent kind of a grin. "I have a gift for understatement."
"You can say that again," she told him.
"I have a...."
"Oh, shut up."
--Stardust, Caroline K
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 378
Beat Reporter
|
|
Beat Reporter
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 378 |
PJ said: My kids are in elementary school these days, and they're learning a ton about American history, geography, civics, etc. I guess I can see why someone would want to discuss it, but I don't feel being educated abroad would negate Obama's knowledge about America. As a US citizen educated completely abroad until college, I am quite certain I know more about the history and politics of this country than many a person educated in this country their whole lives--Jay Leno's Streetwalking segments could testify to that. All of the knowledge one could learn in grade school could certainly be learned by someone who majored in polisci at Colombia. Not to mention, any of that information could be learned by someone who was literate enough to pick up a book and read. In addition, given that he was a college professor of constitutional law, it's pretty much a guarantee that he knows the constitution better than the majority of us. To me, personally, that's not a particularly good argument against his presidency for the reasons outlined above. Sarah Palin was a communications/journalism major who jumped from college to college until she found the right one for her, but I don't understand why lack of resolve for her future career disqualifies her from trying to be VP either and I'm sure all her supporters would agree. It's about your track record, what you say you stand for, the policies you propose and so forth. What disgusts me most about this campaign is how people feel like personal lives should enter in. I don't care if McCain has three houses or 20. If his wife wants to buy him houses, then she can go ahead and do it. And whether Obama did drugs as a youngster doesn't matter to me either. He apparently doesn't do them now, so moving on. I care what they say they're going to do in office now and what their track record in the past supports. That's what matters to me.
**~~**
Swoosh --->
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,644
Pulitzer
|
|
Pulitzer
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,644 |
I don't feel being educated abroad would negate Obama's knowledge about America. As a US citizen educated completely abroad until college, I am quite certain I know more about the history and politics of this country than many a person educated in this country their whole lives--Jay Leno's Streetwalking segments could testify to that. All of the knowledge one could learn in grade school could certainly be learned by someone who majored in polisci at Colombia. Not to mention, any of that information could be learned by someone who was literate enough to pick up a book and read. Oh, definitely. The facts can be and are learned by millions, one way or another. I guess what I was getting at might be more of a gut-level thing; for me, patriotism isn't intellectual, it's an emotion. (I work hard to be reasonable, but at a gut level, insulting my country is only slightly less objectionable than insulting my mother) Immigrants to the US learn the facts, too, and many of them have a highly-developed love of their adopted country. I don't see that in Obama, though, so I wondered if his grade school years in Indonesia might be a factor. I'm interested in this partly because my husband, a native US citizen, was brought up entirely in Canada, and it's colored (coloured? ) his responses on some things. So where were you educated abroad? Sounds like it was in a number of places, but yeah, it was probably a better education than what's available to kids in some parts of America. PJ
"You told me you weren't like other men," she said, shaking her head at him when the storm of laughter had passed.
He grinned at her - a goofy, Clark Kent kind of a grin. "I have a gift for understatement."
"You can say that again," she told him.
"I have a...."
"Oh, shut up."
--Stardust, Caroline K
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,206
Top Banana
|
|
Top Banana
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,206 |
You know what the irony is? Neither candidate for president may have been born in the United States.
While the evidence on Obama is murky with some evidence that he may have been born in Kenya or possibly Indonesia, the evidence on McCain is very clear. He was definitely not born in the United States, but rather he was born on a military base in Panama, at the time a US territory.
The Senate passed a non-binding resolution affirming their support for McCain's right to run for president since he was born on US soil technically, one of the aye votes coming from Barack Obama.
-- Roger
"The Constitution only gives people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself." -- Benjamin Franklin
|
|
|
|
