Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Off Topic Help! Distributing old shows, and thoughts on the morality/legality thereof

Hi guys,

I have to write a term paper for my 'ethics and law on the digital frontier' class. We're pretty much allowed to pick our own topics; at first I was all set to write about fanfic, but someone did that last term and my professor didn't seem too keen on the idea of me covering the same ground again. So for the moment I'm considering writing about fan distribution instead, and I'm curious to see what other people think about the issue.

For instance, I downloaded copies of L&C when there were no DVDs to be had. When the copyright holder refuses to capitalize on a franchise, what harm does it do for the fans to make do with what they have? When the DVDs came out, I bought them, so personally I see no harm done. Of course, that's easy for me to say since I'm not the copyright holder

Or, for another example, I've downloaded episodes of Muppet Babies in the past. I adored that show as a child, to the point of having my own troupe of imaginary muppet babies instead of imaginary friends. But there are no DVDs or videos available and no plans to release them. Someday I'd like to be able to show Muppet Babies and the other shows I grew up with to my own children (especially if it means I can prevent them from watching some of the garbage that's on TV today), and it upsets me that they're not available. Is it wrong of me to download them? Any thoughts? Are there other shows people would like to see released? (Obviously there are a lot of shows someone somewhere would like to see, but I'm interested in the specific things people here want.)

Also, years ago I remember someone posting a link to a website that maintained a library of video tapes of shows that were no longer on the air. They would make copies for you for the cost of tapes and postage. I'm not even sure if they're in business anymore, but I wanted to see if they could tell me anything. Does anyone remember what they were called or what their web address was?

Or, since the knowledge and resources of this community never fail to amaze me, if anyone has anything else to add I'd be happy to hear it

Thanks!
Kaylle

Hm, the only website I know is Rent my DVR , although it works online with a download-client instead of sending tapes.

Well, recording a tv-show for (your own!) personal use is legal, but distributing is not. Even the use of colleagues, friends or co-workers for recording a tv-show is not legal; although there do exist broadcasting networks who allow this, see FOX.com . Regarding Rent my DVR and all shows offered via file sharing networks, I suggest you read this news.com article: Supreme Court rules against file swapping .

Oh, I'm aware it isn't legal. I'm just looking for people's thoughts on the subject (where wrong=ethically, not legally). It seems most closely analogous to abandonware, in my opinion (old games that internet users feel justified in sharing with one another because the companies that own them do not sell/support them anymore and have no intention of doing so). Abandonware, while still illegal, seems generally "tolerated" by the software community.

Anyway, I'm just trying to see what other people think. I apologize if I wasn't clear before; I posted pretty late at night Thanks for the links, I'd never heard of the RentMyDVR site

Kaylle

My personal opinion on this one is that if TV companies persist in teasing me with trailers, hype (over-hype), telling me repeatedly that I need to see this show...then tell me I have to wait several months or a year for it? I'll go download. Don't make me want a product, then make it impossible for me to pay you to see it. If you want to be that stupid, stuff you.

Take BSG, for example. I would never have thought of downloading Season 2. I expected that it would appear on SKY ONE, here in the UK, in October, just like it did last year, and I was happily willing to wait till it did and watch it there.

But, SKY decided that they didn't have 'a window' in their schedule until January. This is a schedule, incidentally, crammed to bursting point with ancient repeats of The Simpsons, Futurama, Malcolm In The Middle and so on - that's what makes up most of their evenings. And they can't find a spare hour for a first run, popular show?

So, I downloaded them. You left me with a cliffhanger, SKY. Don't expect me to wait over a year, till you can find a window, to find out what happened next! If you don't want me to download, start playing fair with your viewers.

As soon as the DVDS come out I'll buy them, so the TV companies aren't losing on this one. But that's not always the case and I'm aware that those of us who do go on to buy the DVDs after downloading a show are in the minority.

But until the TV companies stop messing us about - downloading will continue imo.

So, basically, I refuse to feel guilty about it.

LabRat

A slightly different take: on the rare occasion I'll get episodes downloaded - whether of a current series or something old - it's usually because I refuse to watch them on TV. I hate the quantity and timing of advertisements on North American TV and will always either buy the series on DVD or watch a download because there are no advertisements.

So there you go - another reason why the networks/cable channels are losing audiences to downloads. Who wants to sit through up to 20 minutes per hour of advertisements?


Wendy

Maybe you should edit the title -- you want thoughts on the morality thereof, not the legality

I tend to think that if it's something I could have videotaped, then a download is fair game. Although I admit I feel better about it if we later buy everything we've downloaded -- except of course for the stuff that's still not available. Like seasons 2, 3, and 4 of L&C. We bought the S1 box set, and I expect we'll buy the other three when (if)they're available, but in the meantime, I'll use what I've got without a qualm.

Personally, I think the studios should jump on the trend and make "official" downloads available, for a small fee, of course. Make the downloading process simpler, faster, and obviously legal, and I bet they'd rake in a lot of revenue. There'd be server costs, I guess, but then they save the cost of all the packaging and distribution. And they'd get business from people who would like to get only two or three episodes from a season, and would never spring for the box set.

I think I've wandered from the point... hopefully something in there made sense

PJ

I haven't downloaded any L&C eps, except for the Pilot, but I was a little disappointed with the quality (and slowness/availibility of the downloads), so I stopped there.

But I have been downloading Gilmore Girls every week since approximately 1,5 years. It's almost impossible to read about a television series on the net and not encounter spoilers (at least for your own country). I used to not care (I was spoiled on all the Buffy eps because of reading fan fiction), but that has changed. It's frustrating to read about a great episode, and then have to wait 1,5-2 years to see it yourself. So the only solution for me is downloading it. And the quality of HDTV downloads is superb! I have also downloaded the DVD-rips of the 1st and 2nd season of Gilmore Girls. But I have always said that when they would release the DVD box in Belgium, I'd buy it. Well, they released it today, and I am going to buy it within 3 weeks when the price has dropped a little (€ 70 is a bit too much for me) and my exams are over. So I buy the DVD when they're avaible to me AND I still watch the 'official' broadcasts on Belgian television, although I have those episodes on my laptop or DVD+R. So I personally don't see anything terribly wrong with that. I realise that legally, it isn't okay, but I refuse to wait and sit around when there is such great technology.

A friend of mine who watches the new episodes of 9 US series each week, had been trying to convince me to 'accept' Lost from him. Until a couple of months ago, they showed the pilot episode here in Belgium. My brother said to me: "Go to Dennis and get Lost!". So I did just that. And we watched the entire first season in 5 days lol. And now each week, my friend and I swap episodes. I give him Gilmore Girls, he gives me Lost. But as with Gilmore Girls, I regularly watch the official broadcasts on Belgian television. Also because of my mom watches the Belgian broadcasts and it's nice to watch it together. She has however complained about how she has already seen pieces of season 2, when she's still watching season 1

And the quality of the HDTV downloads is better than the normal television broadcasts. I always connect my laptop the the tv, so the difference is quite clear to me. Also with HDTV, the image is broader than the tv broadcast, so I can see more

I know that technically, it's illegal. But I can't imagine stopping with the downloads. It would mean no new episodes of Gilmore Girls and Lost for a very long time. So I'm kind of forced to engage in illegal downloading activities. So how the victim here? We! The fans! (Okay, now I'm partially joking )

For some reason, this reminded me of another point about TV companies making you wait months/years for US shows.

Take SG1. When the new season starts, I want to be able to watch the episodes and discuss them with other fans, right there and then. It becomes more difficult to do that when it's shown in the US in, say, July, and in the UK in October. Not impossible, but it's not the same. By the time we've seen the episode and hop onto the forum to talk about it, the US fans have long since moved on and aren't interested in the main in discussing it any more. And if you're in a country that's got even more of a delay than the UK and are years behind, you've got no chance.

So, downloading also allows me - and I'm sure many other fans - to experience the whole spectrum of fan involvement and sharing the experience to the full. Something that TV companies prevent us from doing because of the time lag in distribution.


LabRat

Try watching SG and not having cable. I'm a full year behind everyone else; well, slightly less because of the DVDs.

Speaking of which, I got the first two Atlantis DVDs from Netflix today!

Oh, I obviously have misinterpreted your posting. Sorry!

There aren't that many shows which I'm interested in enough to go through the trouble of downloading them. The total show count is a mere 3, while one isn't on air anymore.

Actually, I should be pretty lucky as I can access German and Austrian TV-stations via cable but pretty much all shows are delayed by AT LEAST 12 months and in some cases up to 24. There's the same delay for DVD's if there even are releases for a show. But that's not the only questionable thing about DVD's - lets take a closer look at the Stargate SG-1 Season 7 set which currently costs 29.98 US-Dollars for US-residents or EUR 99,00 for me. That's a ridiculous difference I'm not willing to pay!

So in the end: Yes, I am illegally downloading some episodes as there's virtually no (affordable) alternative. Do I feel bad about that? Well, at first I do but when I begin to think about a DVD-box three times as expensive as in the US, I lose my guilt instantly.

I don't do a whole lot of downloading, myself. The few times I have, the quality isn't very good, or I had one heck of a time trying to track down the correct codecs. Those times that I have, it was because I missed an episode that week and wanted to see what I missed (Lost), or it was one of those rare episodes that you won't see (rarely seen Charmed pilot, before they made changes). Other than that, I just wait for it to be on tv. And Labrat has heard me gripe when the UK gets SG1 before we do in the 2nd half of the season, but I prefer watching good quality on my 25" tv, instead of bad quality on my 17" monitor.

I understand you Bettina, DVD boxes can be pretty pricy. Take Gilmore Girls for example.

Gilmore Girls, Season 1
In Belgium + Netherlands (as of yesterday): € 70 is the lowest price I could find and I've looked everywhere, and most stores have it at € 80 or € 90.
In Germany (as of tomorrow): only € 27!! I would have loved to buy that one, but it doens't include Dutch subtitling.

Gilmore Girls, Season 5 still has to come out in the US (December 13), and is currently priced at € 39. So WHY do I have to pay almost double the amount for the first season?? I don't understand why Gilmore Girls is this expensive, and I sure hope Lois & Clark won't be this expensive when it's finally released here!

About going through the trouble of downloading a show. It's not really that hard to download new episodes of series. No longer than 12 hours after airing, most episodes are already available as torrent downloads. Downloading can take 1-3 hours (I once had it in 30 minuntes). Fortunately, I only download one show a week, because I have a bandwidth limitation of only 10GB/month (of which 1,5 GB upload). Of course, it helps when you have someone to help you with downloading, so I swap Gilmore Girls for Lost every week (tomorrow evening is my weekly appointment )

EDIT: oops, I kind of forgot this thread was about OLD tv shows, sorry. I think that for old shows that haven't been released on DVD yet, it's more acceptable to download or distribute them to your friends. However, I am totally against people who try to make profit from this and illegally sell bootleg DVD's on eBay or online shops for a lot of money. There are even 'companies' who sell nothing else than bootleg copies. When I see an eBay auction for Lois & Clark bootleg DVD's, I report the auction to eBay. And I have already reported two websites selling these DVD's to Warner Brothers. Don't know it that had any effect though. But it just angers me that some people make lots of money while duping fans who think they'll get Lois & Clark in DVD quality. Some even have the guts to ask more for the entire 4 seasons than 1/4 of the official season 1. So you pay more so you can have worse quality without any extras? Ridiculous!

Sometimes, fans distributing shows and fanfiction encourages people to buy legal copies.

Even after reading (and writing my own) Forever Knight fan fiction, I still bought season 1 & season 2 on DVD. But that's also show that's no longer rerun, like L&C (last time I checked, anyway). They do sporadically rerun FK on the Sci-fi channel, but it often goes with several years in-between with nothing.

I don't plan on buying all of the Star Trek series because the price is prohibitive and it's frequently rerun on TV, but I may buy one or two DVDs with my all-time favorite eps, like the Trouble With Tribbles and the DS9 ep, and the Voyager Captain Proton eps.

I will probably eventually buy the L&C DVD sets as well.

Anyway, I don't think it's unethical if there is no other alternative and you're not profiting from it, or if the proceeds go to charity.

I'm in a similar boat -- I'll download things that I can't get otherwise. Cartoons I watched when I was younger and would like to see again, for example; if you're really lucky, you might find an old VHS tape of one or two episodes somewhere.

Except I have nothing that plays VHS tapes. Hm.

So I have no qualms about downloading, nor about trading with friends. I'll always prefer a DVD to a download both for legality and convenience's sake. If the DVD were available, I would buy it. Since it's not, I don't.

Oh, and I don't own a TV, so the computer is the only way I can watch any of these shows.

I agree with the above -- market the downloads to the fans, we might even tolerate some form of DRM (maybe), and I think companies would find that most of us are willing to pay for what we want if they would let us.

Personally, if the companies aren't going to release DVDs, I'm all for downloading. There are a few TV shows I'd love to have, but . . . (I feel the same way about Made-for-TV movies--there are a couple I would *dearly* love to have--and if anyone had a copy for download, I'd jump on it.)

I wanted to post here quickly and say that I appreciate everyone's thoughts! My life has pretty much become Star Wars: Musical Edition the last few days, but I greatly appreciate everyone taking the time to contribute here and I'll be back asap to comment specifically

Kaylle