Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Off Topic Take Back Every Bad Thing You Ever Said: Revenge of the Sith!

Prefaced to say this is all my humble opinion and I'm only typing it because I'm enjoying the discussion and it's 4 am so obviously I'm not sleeping...

First of all, I agree with everyone in saying that Anakin and Padme just don't cut it <g>. I don't know what he sees in her or what she sees in him. But I figure, hey, they're young, immature (he was only 19 when they got married, and he's 22 in this film; she's older but she certainly doesn't strike me as more mature <g>), they got married really quickly, etc. Teenagers fall in love and do stupid things (I say this with all humility, since I'm in my early 20s and probably still suspect to that rule ). So while I might not really believe they're in love, I do think they believe they're in love. Which is maybe all that's important.

Are they really in love? Maybe. Do they think it's special and forever and they're going to live happily ever after? Absolutely. So I can believe that Anakin would do something stupid to save his wife, despite the hollowness of the scenes we see between them, because his perception of their relationship is what's key.

Well, he had nightmares for a few weeks before his mother died, and when he finally decided to do something about them it was too late and she died in his arms. So I can see him wanting to be proactive this time, not to ignore the warnings, and try to stop his dreams from coming true.

I thought that the first time I saw it, too. On the second viewing it was a little more believable (probably because I knew what was coming and thus what to look for).

From Anakin's point of view, the Jedi don't trust him, have been lying to him to control him, withholding the information he needs to save his wife, asking him to spy on his friends, etc. Palpatine, on the other hand, has always been his friend and as far as Anakin can tell has always told him the truth.

WHen Anakin went to Yoda to ask about saving Padme, Yoda basically told him he shouldn't try to save her. When he talked to Palpatine about it, Palpatine said there was a way and he'd help him find it. So that's a pretty easy choice to make, assuming you can get over the "dark side" stigma. And if Palpatine's been a dark sider all along and still managed to be (in Anakin's experience) an upstanding guy, then maybe the dark side isn't so bad after all.

Add to that the lies Palpatine's been feeding him about the Jedi being corrupt and wanting to overthrow the Republic. And then Anakin catches Mace in an admittedly all-too-coincidental moment with Palpatine at saberpoint. Mace is ready to kill frail-old-man-Palpatine without benefit of a trial. Anakin is afraid that with Palpatine's loss so goes the knowledge he needs to save Padme. Desperate, he tries to stop Mace from killing Palpatine and ends up betraying Mace instead.

So that's one murder on his conscience. Plus Count Dooku earlier in the film. Palpatine again spins things to imply to Anakin that the Jedi were corrupt and what he did was okay. And again the promise of saving Padme. I think it's just too much too fast for him-- I've never thought Anakin was particularly mature-- and when he has to choose a side quickly, Palpatine's seems lucrative.

Admittedly, that's still a few steps away from mass murder. But I think he's on a slippery slope by then. And I think the dark side makes it very easy to rationalize that what you're doing is okay. The Jedi were all bad guys! They want to overthrow democracy and take over the galaxy! They've been brainwashing all these children!

And, once he started using the dark side, he probably started to like it. All that power he wasn't allowed to use before. All the freedom from the restrictions of the Jedi code. And then it gets easier and easier to keep using it, until it warps his entire perception of things to the point where he can actually attack Padme. He assumes Padme's having an affair with Obi-Wan. He assumes Obi-Wan has told her lies about him. If she's not with him, she's an enemy. And still he claims he's doing this for the right reasons; he's ended the war, he's going to overthrow Palpatine and restore order... Rationalization at its best.

And incidentally, Obi-Wan breaks my heart. Anakin and Padme may be passionless, but Ewan McGregor really nailed his part for me. And it's all too easy to believe he grew up into Alec Guinness.

Okay, now that I've written a novel, maybe I will try to sleep Thank you all for letting me blather on about this! I really am enjoying the conversation, especially with people who don't consider themselves 'fans' and have a different way of looking at things than... um... people like me.

Kaylle

Oh goody. I'll play!

I find Anakin and Padme to very hollow. And I know Natalie Portman is reportedly an excellent actress, but she had played Padme so very flat. That spunky, 'I'll shoot the bad guys, what kind of rescue is this?' Princess Leia could come from her is really... well, that apple fell far from the tree.

Unconvincing love scenes aside, and winch-inducing dialogue to go with it, we know Anakin loves her. We know that what he fears most is losing what he loves. That makes him vulnerable in a way no other Jedi is. And the Jedi Council has no idea how to handle such a thing.

Geek moment: this is one of the things Luke will change. When the Jedi are all but wiped-out, he will take any and all force sensitive creatures at the new Jedi Academy. (I warned you it was a geek moment!) So for the first time you'll have married Jedi, Jedi who are parents. Jedi with 'attachments.' This will include Luke, himself.

The old Jedi council, as led by Yoda and Mace, didn't allow for that. So, Anakin, with his love of his mother, first, and now of Padme, doesn't fit the bill right from the get go.

Plus, he's far more powerful than they. And frustrated with the constraints on him. And desperate to save his wife and child.

As for the slippery slope. Palpatine played it so well. From Anakin's childhood he established himself as one who was very interested in this young padawan. He was in his head early. In contrast, only Obi-wan was any sort of father figure. The rest of the Jedi kept him at arms length. They lectured, they supposedly thought he was the answer to a prophecy, but they never did anything differently with him than any other apprentice, even when it was very clear Anakin was not your usual Jedi.

Now. Here's what didn't work for me. We know Anakin has slaughtered whole tribes before. The Sandpeople after his mother's death. But that he went straight to the temple and to the younglings was too big a jump for me. I think it would have been richer, more devastating, if his first legitimate move as Darth Vader had been to cross lightsabers with Obi-wan. To turn on the one good thing that had been part of his Jedi training as the final way to turn towards the dark side.

So, yeah. The immediate 'kill them all' thing wasn't my favorite. Though once he had done what he did in the temple, I can see how he could easily, from then on, kill without remorse or forethought.

I would have liked *less.* But there's nothing in this movie that's less.

Best moment: Obi-wan, who in the pits of hell, fighting for his life, still begged Anakin not to make that jump. "I've got the high ground. Don't do it!"

The really cool thing (in a geeky way) about watching New Hope immediately after Sith. When Darth Vader marches on board Leia's ship... we have this much more layered take on things. "Oh no! It's poor Anakin! He's still trapped in that suit!" And when he sees Leia and is questioning her, we all know something he doesn't.

CC

edit: You know what I just thought of? Thus proving I need to get a life?

Obi-wan walked away from what was left of Anakin. And gads, there wasn't much and it was extra crispy. I guess he assumed Anakin was as good as dead. But if he hadn't assumed that, would he have finished him off? Coud he have? And what would the universe have looked like if he did? Hmmmmmm?

Ok. All done. Going away.

Here we get to see Lucus' greatest advantage over other movie producers. The fact that his movies fans will provide for him all the logical reasons and motivations for his characters and story that he seems unable to portray.

I friend of mine brought up a good point. He felt that the wail of despair by Anakin at the end of the movie when finding out Padme was dead was out of place. Instead, he should have reacted with a, 'Good, it's what she deserved for betraying me' type of line. This would have truly shown the destruction of 'young Skywalker' and the ascension of Darth Vader. I agree.

Tank (who agrees it was a movie worth seeing but wouldn't pay to see it a second time)

Admittedly, this is probably because the books were written before the prequels came out and told us love was forbidden . But I wholeheartedly agree that the new Jedi Order shouldn't be forbidden from emotional attachment. It seems like a hopeless endeavor from the beginning, because you know some of them will, they're only 'human.' And if it leads to resentment against the Jedi code, that's a bad thing, judging from Anakin's example <g>. [I'm writing a story about just that, actually, because I'm a nerd ]

Besides, once he found the right woman, Luke in love is so cute! And his wife is awesome.
Isn't that kind of what we do in fanfic all the time? We examine our characters' motivations, write introspection, fill in gaps between scenes/episodes, try to find a deeper understanding than what was shown on the screen? I don't see any difference just because L&C is a television show.

Admittedly, I'm a SW fan. And I have kind of a knee-jerk reaction at the implication that I'll automatically defend the movie or try to rationalize why it was good. I liked it. All I can say is why I liked it. I know some people won't. I do understand that.

But at this point, after eight years of being a fan (not as long as some; I came late to the fold , but still more than a third of my life!), SW is so much more than six movies to me. It's a set of characters and a universe that extends from the bones the six movies laid out. I don't worship George Lucas, anymore than any of us probably worship Debra Joy Levine or Robert Singer (or Shuster and Siegel, for that matter). He made lots of mistakes, as does probably any writer anywhere. Because SW is such a big name, his are more visible and obvious. But, flawed or not, I love what became of his creation.

So to me, the movie isn't the end-all and be-all. I was hugely impressed by/pleased with the movie. But the first thing I did afterwards was sit down and read the book. That gives me a different perspective, and I'm the first to admit it isn't fair to argue the merits of the movie from the book. But both versions become part of the larger tapestry, and that's the universe I play in. So I like to get all my facts straight. I think most (good) fanfic writers do that: try to absorb as much information about their show/movie/etc as they can.

Also, there were a lot of scenes cut from the movie for time. I really wish some of them had been left (especially the explanation for the Qui-Gon tag at the end; without that scene Yoda's conversation with Obi-Wan makes no sense at all). I'm hopeful that the DVD will include them as special features. In the meantime, I had to find out how they should have played out

Kaylle

I consider myself a SW geek in that I *want* to love these movies, and even though I complain about them myself, I will defend them against anyone who I think is really truly picking on them in a mean spirited way. I've seen all three of the original movies at least a dozen times each, and I've bought "Attack of the Clones" DVD ostensibly to give to my 5-year old beginner-SW geek but is really for myself.

The thing is, I want so much to believe in the love between Anakin and Padme. Despite the very bad dialogue and stiff acting between Hayden Christiansen and Natalie Portman, I thrilled and squeeed during AotC when the two of them started falling in love. I gave myself a healthy dose of suspension of disbelief and let myself fall into the story because I'm such a sucker for a romance. Heck, my favorite part of the first three movies was the Hans Solo/Princess Leia flitration.

So I wanted them to be in love, and I was even willing to ignore all the physical junk that messed up my ability to lose myself in the fantasy (bad acting, bad dialogue). Even in this episode I was ready to buy into the Anakin losing his mind after Padme dies scenario because it is oh, so romantic! I guess that's why I was disappointed in the way things were handled. If Padme had died first - before Anakin turned to the dark side, I would have bought the premise of love being a motivator much better. I could have completely bought into the idea that Anakin was raging against the light side of the force for taking his one true love away from him despite all he'd done in the name of good, deciding to embrace the dark side so as never to experience love and subsequent pain again.

As the movie was written, the love story was simply too weak. I agree with Tank's friend in that Darth Vadar's reaction after learning of Padme's death was more than a little off. Especially given how he pretty much nearly killed her himself when he believed she'd betrayed him. I would have liked to see a little bit of guilt and remorse over that.

Oh wait - I forgot. I did love the genious of Palpatine/Emperor telling Darth Vadar that he'd been the one who killed Padme. Except by this time Darth already had his mask on, and I would have given anything to watch Anakin's face as he was told this lie - agony and remorse and self-loathing, all combining to push him that final few centimeters into the dark-side of the force abyss. Instead all we got was the blank Darth Vadar mask and a scream.

I was also very frustrated that Padme, who had at one time been queen of her planet and a teenaged senator AND also fought valiantly for her life against scary alien monsters had become nothing more than a wet mop in this movie. She didn't do much more than wring her hands and grow pregnant very, very quickly. I wanted her to shake Anakin and tell him to snap out of it.

What really irritated me was her death of a supposed broken heart. What? She did not strike me as such a little simpering miss who would leave behind two babies just because her husband had taken a dive off the deep end. I won't even go into how her death completely yanked Leia's line about remembering her mother into discontinuity since according to this new development her mother died before Leia was all of five minutes old.

Again, I would have been far more pleased if Padme had realised what a threat Anakin now was, her heart broken all the same, but she spirits her children off to some distant planet and simulates her own death so that Anakin/Darth will not try to find her. That would have had the same affect on Anakin/Darth as her real death did. She could have lived for a few years in misery and then finally die of her broken heart when she learns how evil her husband had become. A lot less dramatic, sure, but more believable IMO.

Now, I don't really want to become a SW geek of the CC magnitude, but are there any SW books out there that give me a love story between Anakin and Padme that will really make me swoon? Or do I need to start looking for SW fanfic or, god forbid, start nagging CC to write some?

Lynn

Just popping in quickly to respond to something from Lynn:

Well, initially that disturbed me too, but I think I've come up with the solution.

In VI, Leia tells Luke that she remembers just "images" of her mother, because her mother died when Leia was very young. And obviously she wouldn't have any images of Padme at all.

So I assume that the "mother" Leia remembers is Organa's wife, who takes the baby in her arms when he arrives back home. All her life Leia would have thought of those two people as her parents. I haven't read the books - did she even know that she was adopted?

So the mother that she's remembering is not her biological mother, and in fact has nothing to do with Luke at all...

Kathy

I haven't yet seen the movie but nothing mentioned here is really a spoiler since all of that was known before movie #1. Just wanted to mention something I'd thought of way back in Phantom Menace.

Anakin's supposed to bring "balance to the Force." I wonder if the geniouses on the Jedi Council realized that the Force was already unbalanced in favor of the Jedi. After all, many Jedi, two or three Sith. Bringing "balance" would only mean bad things for them. Hmm, food for thought.

Lol! This has always bothered me. Lots of lightsiders, no darksiders. Why in God's name would you want balance?! But I guess they "misread" the prophecy...

It's been a long time since I read the Return of the Jedi novel, but I don't think this was ever definitively answered. I have a vague memory that Leia remembered her mother being Alderaan's minister of education or something? I've always sort of wondered how she could now, because it seems hard to believe the people would accept an adopted princess. Then again, Alderaan was supposed to be the perfect planet, so maybe they didn't mind <g>. But yes, I just assume the mother Leia remembers is the queen of Alderaan. I think she too died when Leia was very little, because the books always mention that her father and three aunts raised her.

I've mostly avoided the prequel novels like the plague . I personally don't like to read about Padme and Anakin, so I didn't finish the Attack of the Clones novelization, but I seem to remember there were a lot of romantic scenes. I can't say much more than that. CC?

Of course, if CC wants to write A/P, she might convince me to like them <g>. Until then I'll stick with Han/Leia (my favorites!) and Luke/Mara. Less squeamish all around

Although, after this movie, I'm sorely tempted to start reading Obi-Wan/(insert female here) stories

Kaylle

Okay, I'm back again because I found something else to talk about and I'm procrastinating finishing my packing

Yeah, I was really surprised at how large she was, even at the beginning of the movie. It doesn't seem like much time passes during the course of the film, and at the end of it she gives birth to babies that look full-term. So was she eight months pregnant from the beginning? Did she wait until she was eight months pregnant before she told her husband?! I can understand wanting to tell him in person, and I guess he'd been away for a long time, but there comes a point when enough is enough <g>.

I also would have liked to see more of the repercussions of her pregnancy when no one knows they're married. This was something that was mentioned in a lot of interviews beforehand, that Padme's senatorial costumes were going to get looser because she's trying to hide her pregnancy. And there's that throwaway comment about the queen of Naboo asking her to step down as senator. I would have liked to see her dealing with the real-life issues of living in secret.

I was also hoping the immaturity of their relationship would contribute somewhat to Anakin's demise. I mean, she admitted she loved him, they had a big battle, and then they got married. Not much time to consider that decision. And they've never come off as very mature. So I was hoping to see some trouble between them, some implication that maybe getting married so fast wasn't a good idea. That would have redeemed the shallowness of the romance for me, because it would have had consequences. Look kids, it's not such a great idea to jump into things! Instead they appear to be perfectly happy together, despite living in secret and never seeing each other. And that's another thing; how do they hide the fact that Anakin's apparently living with her, or at least sleeping over a lot?

On the other hand, all of that backstory/character development probably got cut for time. I'm still waiting for that DVD...

Kaylle
(really stopping now and finishing her packing...)

P.S. If anyone's interested in the books, there's a timeline of books and fan reviews on TheForce.net . I don't always agree with their reviews, but it might be a place to start, especially with the prequels where I can't offer much advice.

Just (finally) saw the movie. Still not entirely sure what I think. I asked Mom for her thoughts, but she said I had to go first. So, we've been going back and forth. We've now both stated that we're going to wait for the other. Of course, I'm right. I did ask first...

Anyway...

I agree with most of what's been said here. Not sure how much I have to add. Very good movie, but not perfect. Padme and Anakin's scenes just don't cut it for me. They're better than in the previous two movies, but still not at all convincing.

If I accept, however, that they were what Lucas thought they were (beautiful scenes of epic love), then that makes the rest fall a little more into place.

As for Haden and Anakin... Anakin's jump to murdering children was too big for me to accept, but his going to the dark side wasn't. The thing is that they've been careful to show us his darker nature in the last two movies. At this point, what I have the hardest time believing is the end of Return of the Jedi. He converts back, and is (immediately) accepted amongst the ghosts of the Jedi? That's a bit much for me. Padme thoughtthere's good in him still, but Padme thought a lot of things (or, come to that, not very many...).

The timing of the pregnancy confused me, too. Not to mention the time space between the end of this movie and the beginning of the next. Is less than 20 years really enough time for the entire galaxy to accept Palpatine's rule? For him to convert everything into a ruthless Empire? I guess it's possible, but it seems a bit of a stretch to me.

Oh, and the Jedi falling. From a thematic point of view, it works. Very well. OTOH, I couldn't help but wonder why these powerful, vaunted Jedi could go from being able to defend themselves against entire roomfulls (or squadrons) of battle droids to falling defenseless against small handfulls of (admittedly trusted) soldiers. Why couldn't they sense the danger and defend themselves or escape or something?

I guess there are plenty of nits to pick. Still, it was a very good movie, overall.

Haden made a poor whiny love-struck Anakin, but he made a chillingly convincing powerfully evil and destructive Vader.

I liked the parity between various scenes, too. The fights between Yoda and Palptaine and between Obi Wan and Anakin. The births of the twins and Vader. Unsubtle, perhaps, but still a nice touch.

The plot did explain quite a few things and it set everything up very neatly for the next three movies.

I'm not sure what to think of all the cameos, though. Chewie and... Wedge? Or was that Wedge's father? Seems like you couldn't turn around without walking into someone from the next trillogy.

It was also cool seeing the similarities between these movies and the other three. Seeing how Luke walked along the same path as his father, and where his choices differed. That also makes it more belivable, thematically at least, that he's the one to redeem Anakin.

I hadn't really thought about that "NOOOOOO" at the end, other than to think it seemed just a bit cheesy. Not sure what reaction I'd want to see there. I guess the idea is "I did all this for her, and, because of me, she's dead anyway." You'd think that'd make him give up on everything, though, not just the light side. There shouldn't be a point to anything for him now. His reason for everything (even if it's not believable that that's what she was) is dead. Is that what we saw in the next three movies? A Vader trudging on, doing his duty, because he didn't know what else to do? I don't think so, but maybe, if you account for a little over a decade and a half of doing so, and justifying it to himself as bringing peace and order.

That first breath gave me chills, by the way.

Uhm, what else do I need to ramble on about? The "order 66" sequence, even if I did wonder about it, was still very powerful. And that trusting little padawan in the council chambers...

For some reason, seeing the Corellian Corvette was very cool, even more so when we saw the familliar white halls.

Oh, does anyone know... that barren moon where everyone was gathering... Was that Yavin?

You know, I might just have to see this movie again in a better theater. The one we like didn't have a workable showtime by the time we got ourselves together, so we had to go elsewhere. That theater had a relatively small screen, and I'm wondering how much of my difficulty in following some of the dialogue was due to their sound systems and how much was actually due to all the background noise from within the movie itself. In any case, it'd be easier to immerse myself in the experience in a better theater. I think.

Something else... the fight between Obi Wan and Anakin. I was wondering how Obi Wan was managing to hold out for so long against Anakin, and then we suddenly see them pull the same move at the same time (the force push), and there it was -- a timely and firm (yet still somewhat subtle) reminder that Obi Wan trained Anakin, that they have the same style, and that he knows Anakin's moves better than anyone.

I think that's all I've got for now. Good movie. Miles better than the last two, and it wrapped everything up more neatly than I could have expected. I think I'd gotten my hopes up a bit too much because of this thread and other reviews, but I very much enjoyed it.

No, wait... a couple more random thoughts and questions...

How come Vader immediately sensed that Luke was his son, but never recognized Leia?

Did I correctly understand from Palpatine's explanation that his mentor (whom he'd killed) was the one responsible for Anakin's birth?

Paul

P.S. Back to edit in one more thing. Last one. I promise. For now.

With all the prophesising and all, who would have preferred a slightly different version of the medical droid's line?

"I'm sorry, sir. There's nothing I can do. Medically speaking, she's fine, but the script says she's about to die..."

Well Paul, I'm glad you enjoyed the movie, I wanted to address your two questions at the end.

Number one, Vader did not recognize Luke as his son at first, in A New Hope when he's chasing Luke in the Death Star trench he says the force is strong in this one, no indication he has any idea other than that Luke can use the force. And of course having the name Luke Skywalker, which could easily have been found from captured rebels or communiques didn't hide his lineage very well once Vader came into contact with him. OTOH, Leia never used the force to be sensed by Vader, and even after discovering Luke he wouldn't suspect having another child, he had no clue Padme had twins. Also, and I may be wrong on this, isn't it the Emperor who first names him as the son of Anakin Skywalker? I'd have to rewatch Empire for that.

I've read a few things positing your question there, but as far as I can tell from the offical line it's either no, or who knows, but probably not. As far as Lucas has said he's the chosen one broguht about by the force itself.

FInally a note on your P.S, I've also read it questioned wether Vader, through use of the force, drew on Padme's life to sustain his own after being injured. After rewatching the movie I don't think the timing quite fits, but it is an interesting hypothesis none the less.

Okay, it's effectively the middle of the night, but I woke up and couldn't get back to sleep. In part because I had a new question and a new observation to mull over.

The question:

How did Palpatine know about Padme? He was otherwise occupied when Anakin attacked her, wasn't he? Are we still assuming it was Force-sense? Or is it better to assume that Palpatine saw her first, before going for Anakin? Obi Wan left her, unguarded except by 3PO, and we don't know what happened to her after that. Could Palpatine have stopped to see her, sensed Anakin's attack, and then done something subtle and undetectable to her?

The observation:

I don't remember exactly how either scene goes, but I just realized that Vader's reaction at the end may well have been right, after all. Paraphrasing:

"Where is Padme? Is she safe?"
"She's dead. You killed her."
"No! That's impossible!"
"Accept it. It is the truth."
"NOOOOOOOOOO!"

-----

"Obi Wan never told you about your father..."
"He's dead. You killed him."
"No, Luke. I am your father."
"No! That's impossible!"
"Search your feelings. You know it to be true."
"NOOOOOOOOO!

Thoughts?

Paul

Note that I haven't seen the movie yet, but I can comment on this part. Vader was already in hot pursuit of Luke (mistakenly since he thought Luke was on the Millenium Falcon) before the emperor spoke these words after the Executor left the asteroid field:

"There is a grave disturbance in the Force. We have a new enemy, Luke Skywalker."

"Yes, master." (shows no surprise)

"He could destroy us."

"If he could be turned..."

"Yes, yes. Can it be done?"

"He will join us or die, my master."

(quoted completely from memory, so pardon if I screwed up a line or two)

In essence, the emperor was late to the party. Vader already knew who Luke was. I agree that Vader didn't know about Leia because up until the third movie (sixth?), she had shown little to no ability with the Force, while Luke had started training with Obi-wan. The closest Leia ever got was when she sensed Luke hanging from the antenna on the bottom of Bespin City when Luke called for her.

I suppose the Luke and Leia thing makes sense.

Wonder if the creating life thing was a reference to Greivous (or however that's spelled), since it turned out he was a cyborg. Or maybe it wasn't any of the above and the whole thing was, as presented, an ancient legend.

Anyway, new nitpicky question -- If Obi Wan was there when the twins were born and when Bail Organa adopted Leia, then why did Yoda have to tell his ghost, "There is... another... Skywalker..."?

Oh, and in case anyone is curious, Mom finally relented this afternoon and gave me a bit of her review. That was enough to start up a conversation. Mom, it seems, didn't really like it, though. She's not much for Sci-Fi in the first place, and she seems to have lost touch with all that is Star Wars (I think she was into it before...), as evidenced by the following quote, which was part of a conversation about visual effects and action sequences. "... and I thought if I saw one more flashlight laser come out, I was just going to scream." :rolleyes:

Paul

Yoda says this just before he dies - but to Luke, not Obi-Wan's ghost. Then Luke goes outside and has a conversation with the ghost, who tells him that "the other" is his twin sister. Luke realizes that his sister is, in fact, Leia.

Kathy

I always thought this little bit of insight on Luke's part was rather a no-brainer. How many prominent women had even been in the Star Wars movies up to that point? It didn't take a genius to figure out Leia was it. I think Aunt Beru was the only other woman even mentioned by name up to that point and you know she wasn't his sister.

Mon Mothma, head of the Rebel Alliance, wasn't introduced until a later scene in RotJ. And she didn't do a whole lot except mention the second Death Star and introduce Ackbar. It was left to Admiral Ackbar to run the actual campaign.

Hmm. Seems I remembered the scene wrong. Well, that helps. Guess it's been longer than I thought. Could have sworn it was Obi Wan lamenting that Luke was their last hope, but... Hmm. It's all fuzzy now. Guess I'll have to rewatch. Oh, the sacrifice...

As for Leia, that was never a surprise for me. I was just shy of 5 years old when RoJ came out.

Still, it was technically possible for another female character to be introduced. It's a big galaxy, after all. Besides, Luke had no idea how many other women had been introduced in the movie. For all he knew, we could have been seeing other scenes cut in to his story from lightyears away.

(I probably shouldn't think too much about this, or I'll start getting into Leia's "somehow, I've always known" reaction...)

Anyway, thanks for letting me ramble, especially coming so late to the party. It was a very good movie. Great visuals, some really moving scenes, and some nice touches like using X-wing, TIE, and Star Destroyer elements in the various ship designs.

So, like I said in the beginning, it wasn't perfect, but I really enjoyed it.

Paul

(For the record, this sort of thing is exactly why I see very few movies. I can't help it. Even as I'm watching it, part of me is sitting back and picking it apart. It's very hard just to let go and flow with it. It takes CC-caliber writing to do that, and that's not something I often find at the movies. So, I just end up being very picky about what I'm willing to see, making sure that there's a good chance the movie will be good enough that I'll enjoy it despite that annoying little voice in the back of my head.)

Paul wrote:
Oh man, Paul, you're absolutely right. Well, I was right about Yoda saying that exact line to Luke, not Obi-Wan, but...

there was the scene in ep.V, when Luke leaves Dagobah after he senses that Leia and Han are in danger. As Luke flies off, Obi-Wan's ghost says something like "That boy is our last hope", to which Yoda replies, "No, there is another."

I'd forgotten about that. So why wouldn't Obi-Wan remember about Leia? This does appear to be a loose end that Lucas didn't tie up so easily...

And Roger wrote:
I agree, but I will admit that it still came as a bit of a surprise to me all those years ago. Perhaps I came up with it about half a second before Luke did, despite the clue that something was up with Leia when she "sensed" Luke hanging from the cloud city.

Ok. I've seen it twice more since I last posted. And not because I'm any sort of geek, mind you. Purely for research for this thread and my Anakin/Padme fanfic<g>.

So, I've been thinking about the 'One to Restore Balance to the Force' prophecy. And if by 'restore balance' they meant 'get rid of the Sith once and for all'- and I have trouble seeing how that's a balance, but maybe I'd have to be on the Jedi Council to know?- then Anakin Skywalker does exactly that.

Since the Sith Lords come only in pairs, master and apprentice, when Vader picks up the Emperor and tosses him down the... big, long, tunnel-thingy in the final confrontation in RoJ, the Sith line ends with him.

And before his own death, brought about by that action, Vader 'remembers' his Anakin-self. Luke does echo Padme when he insists there is still good in him. Vader needed his own son to spark Anakin back to life. But once he does, Anakin ends the dark rule of the Sith once and for all. He kills the master and the apprentice is no more.

So, again, if that's what the prophey was about, then it was absolutely true, but a much longer, bloodier road than the Jedi expected, I guess.

Though, I have to say, watching Mace fly out the window... he sort of had that coming.

CC

Okay, so being the curious library bum that I am, I checked out the first two SW books (Cloak of Deception and Shadow Hunter) from Kaylle's link on the first page. My question is...well I'm not really sure what my question is lol. What's the story with these books? How do they relate to all the SW movies I've seen over the years? Are they the same storyline as in the theatre?

Gracias.
JD