Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Off Topic Take Back Every Bad Thing You Ever Said: Revenge of the Sith!

Edited to add: This thread contains some spoilers!

Sorry, CC, I couldn't resist stealing your title

Am I the only person who saw the new Star Wars movie this week? (Yes, I saw it at midnight, despite having an exam at 9 the next morning . In costume. Yes, I am a nerd But, you know, if you're going to a midnight showing, you have to go all out...)

Now, I didn't hate the last two SW movies. I don't love them, and they'll certainly never be as beloved as the original three, but I tolerated them. But a lot of people, a lot of people, hated them. A lot of people figured this one would be just as big a disappointment as the last two, a disgrace to the SW legacy, etc etc etc. Fans can be very melodramatic when predicting doom and gloom

Anyway, lots of people had doubts. But this time they were wrong. Revenge of the Sith is exactly what the prequels needed all along, and I might even go so far as to say it makes up for the first two. I saw it again today and I don't think I was overimpressed on Thursday morning. It really is a great movie.

I don't want to go into spoilers, since I don't know if people have seen it or not, but there were so many moments that blew me away.

I still don't love Anakin, although I'm a lot closer to understanding him, and Hayden does a lovely job. Ewan McGregor and Yoda break my heart. And there's such a sick sense of inevitability about the whole thing. Despite knowing exactly what has to happen and how badly everything has to go, I watched it all unfold and I couldn't take my eyes off of it. It's like watching a train wreck, I guess. A really big train with a whole civilization on its back . That's mowing down a bunch of innocent people on the way.

Okay, I'm going to stop now in case I'm the only one who cares Did anyone else see the movie? Any reactions, good or bad or ugly? <g>

Kaylle

Well, as someone who once attended a midnight showing of The Rocky Horror Show dressed in a gorilla suit (don't ask), it seems perfectly normal behaviour to me.

As for the movie...well. I adored the first three. I was one of those sad individuals who went to see Star Wars every weekend for months when it was on in the cinema. :rolleyes:

But I loathed the first two of these - complete waste of space imo - and that killed any interest I had, so I won't exactly be rushing to see this one. Stuart will probably get it on DVD at some point and I might watch it then, since you reckon it's much better.

It's had less than favourable reviews here, which doesn't exactly make me more interested. <g> Most every review I've seen says that the cast look embarrassed to be in it and they single out Ewan MacGregor for skating his way through without once getting involved.

But I've never been one for listening to what professional critics say. Half the time I never agree with them anyway. Much more prepared to take your word for it than theirs. So I'll give it a go...eventually.

LabRat

I saw it. And I did something I will never ever ever ever do again. I went to the midnight showing. And then went to work at 7am. I'm blaming it on the hubby, whose first movie was Star Wars, and wanted to go.

But I was disappointed. HUGELY disappointed -- I only saw 3 people dressed up. Really, what kind of fans were they? (No, I did not dress up. The decision to go was made at about 5pm. I did take my camera, but took no pictures)

The movie, I liked. Lucas seriously needs to work on his dialogue, though, especially between Padme and Anakin. This is a common complaint I heard. The fight scenes were great, though. A bunch of people awwed when the wookies came on screen, saying "I want one!" I just want R2-D2.. I've already got a wookie.

Overall, the movie was great. I have some issues with it, but the good outweigh the bad. And I loved that pretty much most of my questions were answered by the end.

Omg, I loved it. When Eric first told me he wanted to see it last Saturday, I was kind of hesitant at first just because well a) I didn't see Episodes I and II and of course b) I heard I and II weren't that great. But I love the trilogy with Harrison Ford and Mark Hamill, so what the heck, off to the theatre we went.

Loved it! I agree the dialogue was pretty much a snore...really stilted and all. But the fight scenes made up for it so well! PS, I want a lightsaber. And I loved Yoda. He's my new icon for my instant messenger. Also, I haven't seen Episodes IV-VI in about...8 years, so I'd forgotten some things about the plot until stuff came up. Basically, everything that happened with Anakin pole-axed me.

Isn't that fun?


Jen
/me runs around with an imaginary lightsaber
(not kidding, I did it in the parking lot after the movie)

Ok. Well. I'm so geeked up on Star Wars it would be embarrassing if I had any shame at all. Which I don't. But I'm deep into all the novels. They are stacked beside my bed, close to a hundred, and it's a universe I adore.

Having said that, the first two movies, which I went to as soon as they opened, were fine for me because I was going to enjoy them no matter what. What they weren't was memorable. They didn't stay with me and before Sith I had to rewatch them to remind myself who was who and which side the clones and droids played for.

Oh, but this one... Man.

This one I'm still hung over from. In that 'just saw the movie Titanic' sort of way.

You know the ending. You know it's inevitable. And yet up until Anakin hits the iceberg, you can't help but wish, wish, wish one tiny variable would change.

I think that's what makes this one so good, though. You watch as bit by bit it all clicks into place. And it's tragic because it didn't have to be that way.

Things I loved:

Ewan. Though, in general, that goes without saying. Really warmed up to Hayden's Anakin, too. And his motivation- his fear of losing his love- worked for me, even if his scenes with Padme still really don't.

(Dear George, please call me. I'll write your dialogue! For free! No one has to know!!)

Loved the last scene in hell and the nighmarish images which went with it.'You were my brother.' The picking up of Anakin's lightsaber, which we know we'll next see handed off to Luke. The first breath that comes from behind the mask.

And the very last shot, the twin suns, bringing us around full circle and I think a really hopeful way to end a hopeless movie.

Of course I had to come home and watch A New Hope, ESB, still the best sci-fi movie ever, and I'm working on Return of the Jedi.

(I told you. Geeked up. No shame!)

It could have been richer, it could have been less frantic. But Lucas doesn't do subtle and quiet, does he? What he did do, though, really worked for me.

CC

Stuart mentioned the other day that this had been singled out for attention in a lot of the less enthralled reviews.

But, to be honest, the first three movies had some absolutely cringe-making dialogue in them too. So I don't think it's necesarily something that would put me off, certainly. Didn't seem to matter when the characters and plots were enthralling.

LabRat

Ohh I can't wait to go!! (darn it I need to find a babysitter in town!)

Add me to the unashamed SW geek club!

~Liz

Labrat, your comment made me think of a review I read this morning on CNN:

Article:



I thought the article was pretty good, and even came from a SW fan.

LOL! Too true, Karen. Especially the Harrison Ford bit.

LabRat

Lol! Yes, well, the first three can be forgiven all sorts of sins just for Harrison Ford . I'm not at all a fan of Anakin and Padme. They make me roll my eyes every time they try to be romantic. But I adore Han and Leia. I try to tell myself it's because they were cooler characters, that they were written better, etc etc etc, but I think ultimately it comes down to the fact that they had better actors. I mean, I like Hayden's Anakin well enough, but Harrison he will never be And Padme... Natalie may be fine in other movies (and at the rate she's going she may have a better movie career than Carrie did), but she does absolutely nothing for this character (IMHO). Then again, Padme doesn't have the same spirit Leia did to begin with (and her scenes tend to be boring anyway) so maybe she had less to work with.

At any rate, it always strikes me as telling that Han and Leia can bicker and still sound like adults when Anakin and Padme's angsty whining make them sound like teenagers. Then again, look where A/P's relationship ended up

Labby, I hope you find a chance to see it sometime, even if it means waiting for the DVD. (And who knows, we're all hoping the DVD will have the deleted scenes, so maybe it'll be better than the theater version anyway!) I honestly do think this one's head and shoulders above the other two. In my completely unbiased opinion

(/me tries picturing a lab rat in a gorilla costume and fails horribly )

And Karen, I was disappointed by how few people were in costume too! This is the last SW movie ever! Where are (the rest of) the diehard fans? <g> On the boards for the Boston fanclub several people claimed they'd be in costumes, but I don't think I saw more than five in the whole theater, and most of the costumes were half-hearted at best.

Oh, and CC, you may be my new best friend You'll have to teach me the no shame bit! /me hides shelf full of novels...

Kaylle

P.S. My absolute favorite scene: The "Order 66" montage. Yoda stumbles and falls... Oh, and poor Ewan begging Yoda not to make him do this... If I didn't love him already for Moulin Rouge, this would have sealed the deal

P.P.S. Liz, if you want to ship your kids to Ohio, I'd be happy to watch them so you can go

Well, you're definitely making me more keen to see this one than I was when I got up this morning, Kaylle. <G>

Re Anakin and Padme - I just find it hard to find romance in watching someone called Padme smooching. Natalie Portman though will be forever ingrained on my soul as a stunning actress for her role in Leon.

As for the gorilla suit - the most fascinating thing about that was the way it seemed to bring out random acts of 'test your strength' violence in guys I'd never met before.

I was walking down the stairs in the theatre after the show, when a complete stranger behind me punched me between the shoulderblades! When I turned around and loudly protested this, he was shocked to find I was a woman and full of shame-faced apologies.

I've been left wondering to this day why it would have been okay to punch a strange male wearing a gorilla costume between the shoulderblades.

Men. They don't half have funny ideas sometimes.

LabRat

I went to LA to see Star Wars with my brother over the weekend. It was by far the best of the prequels, the only one that came even remotely close to capturing some of the feel of the original trilogy. I loved the action, and I felt the movie did everything it needed to and brought it full circle to set up the original trilogy. I couldn't help but feel the Jedi council played a large part in Anakin's fall, by giving into their own fear of the Sith (as Yoda say's, fear leads to the darkside, but then again it seems just about everything leads to the darkside it seems ). I loved the battle between Anakis and Obi-Wan, and when Obi-Wan cut off Anakins legs I almost burst out laughing, I was reminded of Monty Python's Quest for the Holy Grail . And I thought some of the best dialogue in the movie was what Obi-Wan then said to Anakin. Anyway, watching it made me want to rewatch them all, and to read the books (which it's been nearly a decade since I read any of them I need to find and read them now ). Sorry for the run on, but it's how I tedn to write when I don't have a real plan .

OMG!! I *so* loved it!

Elena

Well, I haven't seen it yet (somehow, my sister's birthday and her pregnancy and my cousin's new baby and a bunch of other random stuff ended up taking priority. Go figure. ), but I'm glad to hear people are thinking so highly of it. After the last two movies, I was starting to consider not seeing this one (though I kind of felt I had to). All these reviews (here, at the Onion's AV Club , and a few other places), though, have really turned me around. I'm still trying not to get my hopes up too much, but I'm definitely liking what I'm hearing.

So, thanks for sharing, guys, and for keeping this thread (relatively) spoiler-free.

I do have to agree with the Anakin/Padme thing. Their scenes together in Attack of the Clones were, IMO, hands down the worst part of the movie.

I don't have much else to add (costumes are cool, but rare, and I know I'm not doing my part there), but I did want to share this:



It's today's (May 24) Unshelved strip. (Unshelved is an internet comic strip that takes place in a library. I've been a regular reader since Sarah aka Meerkat pointed it out to me.)

Guess that's all for now. I'll probably be back after I've actually managed to go see it.

Paul

I hated ep.I - if there were good things in that movie, I can't see past Jar Jar to find them. II was better, but the love story between Anakin and Padme was definitely a lot to swallow.

III - excellent. Not as good as the original three, but darned close. There are still dialogue issues, and Hayden still can't act...but looking back at the original ones, I'm not particularly impressed by Harrison's acting either. I guess it's what Kaylle said: he's Harrison Ford, so you'll forgive a lot in his case...

When I saw II, I figured it would be impossible for Lucas to finish the war *and* show the progression of Anakin into Vader in less than 2-1/2 hours. I was convinced that he'd end up sacrificing part of the Vader story to showcase battle scenes, special effects, etc.

I'm so glad I was wrong. Sure, I would have been happier to see even more of that storyline, but there was enough to satisfy me.

Now my son wants to do what CC did: watch I & II, then go again this weekend with my husband (he's been out of town, so we went without him), followed by a marathon session of IV, V and VI.

Not a bad idea. If I can manage to stomach Jar Jar again, I think we'll try it. And I'll pay to see III again. Definitely worth it.

Kathy

I still have to see the film, I remember very little of the First one and I never saw the Second. I'm not the number one fan of the SW saga but I have the IV-VI on tape, see them sometimes and I like them very much. Reading your comments I decided to give it a try, but this evening my best friend (a First Class SW fan, she was a fan club member in the Eighties and she used to write fanfics)spoke so bad about it that I almost felt embarassed to have thought to see it! Something about awful dialogues, ridiculous fight scenes (a "flying" Yoda vs. a monster with four lightsabers? I didn't understand this part very well) and, in the most dramatic moment, when Anakin discovers the Power of the Dark Side, the actor making a very poor job with his acting (I think she said that with his closed fists, shouting NOOOO he seemed a desperate kid crying because his little brother broke his favourite toy).
You can say that I'm not so eager to see it now, if you look also to the poor critic comments on newspapers and TVs, which almost generally painted it like a gigantic videogame.
Did someone else see the film during theese days? What do you think? I'm searching for new good reasons to see it, I had decided I'd have liked Part III!
Hopefully,

simona

Hmmm, Yoda did some hardcore tumbling and stuff, but nothint I would have constituted as actual flying. Just kickin' martial arts-ish...

re the monster: Obi Wan did fight a monster with four lightsabers, but...it had mechanical looking arms...and it just looked really cool to me lol.

I personally thought the dialogue didn't flow at all. Really stilted, but looking back now, I guess it was tolerable. Plus, Obi Wan said some things to Anakin towards the end that almost made up for it, for me, at least. But as others have said, was the dialogue really outstanding in any of the other SW movies? <g>

JD

Is that the definition of fanhood? Well, I don't fit... well, there was the Boston club ... and the Luke and Mara... but... um... look over there!


Kaylle
(/me really needs to take those no-shame classes from CC)

Just got home from the theatre.

CC, CC, CC. *sigh*

How can someone who thinks so much like me be so wrong?

Well, I agree about the scenes with Padme. I didn't thing they were as stiff in RotS as they were in AotC, but yes, they were forced.

Which was why the first words out of my mouth to Ken as we left the theatre were "Of all the motivations for Anakin to turn to the dark side, I think love was probably the least believable."

There simply wasn't enough emphasis placed on Padme and Anakin's relationship for me to buy that it was an epical love, capable of destroying galactical orders. Too, I never saw before this movie that Anakin's abilities to see the future were such that he would make decisions like this based on dreams.

Add my disbelief of Anakin's initial reasons (and granted, by the end I did see that perhaps there was more to it than simply his desire to save Padme) to the fact that he turned to the dark side pretty much in a heart beat and I was kind of bumming. I guess I just feel like after all we've been through - five movies, one of which was a painful experience to watch - the reasons for Darth Vadar were a little too easy and thin. I mean, Anakin went from telling the Jedi Council that Palpatine was evil immediately to performing mass murder. That's quite a jump.

But if I let go of those plot holes and just sit back with my bucket of popcorn, I did indeed enjoy this film. I loved how they brought everything full circle, the set up for A New Hope now in place. And I do have an intense desire to watch that film now.

One thing I really loved was at the end, the Emperor and Darth Vadar were looking on the construction of the Death Star (except this leads us to believe it takes 19 or so years to build it).

This one I'll need to rent on DVD to really have a good second look.

Lynn

Having seen all of the Star Wars movies (though I don't consider myself a big fan by any account) I had to see this one as well.

It was... okay.

It was like eating a candy bar. It was pleasant enough while watching it, but you don't take anything away from the theater with you. Empty calories.

Visually it was impressive, if not a bit overdone. The visual overload actually diminished the effect because you couldn't possibly take it all in.

The script had a story of sorts, but the dialog was unconvincing and poorly written. The acting was weak but then, as has been pointed out, if one looks back at the original three, the acting there was pretty amatuerish also.

Padme served no purpose in the story other than to be the vessel for the 'wonder twins' to come. At no time were you convinced that these two people had any real emotions let alone some epic love for each other.

The effects were stunning as usual, and the combat scenes were very good. The fact that JarJar was reduced to little more than a cameo was especially nice.

If your expectations aren't too high, and you wish to kill a couple of hours watching a visual spectacle, then it's worth seeing.

Tank (who found the Darth Vader as Frankenstein ending rather amusing)

Prefaced to say this is all my humble opinion and I'm only typing it because I'm enjoying the discussion and it's 4 am so obviously I'm not sleeping...

First of all, I agree with everyone in saying that Anakin and Padme just don't cut it <g>. I don't know what he sees in her or what she sees in him. But I figure, hey, they're young, immature (he was only 19 when they got married, and he's 22 in this film; she's older but she certainly doesn't strike me as more mature <g>), they got married really quickly, etc. Teenagers fall in love and do stupid things (I say this with all humility, since I'm in my early 20s and probably still suspect to that rule ). So while I might not really believe they're in love, I do think they believe they're in love. Which is maybe all that's important.

Are they really in love? Maybe. Do they think it's special and forever and they're going to live happily ever after? Absolutely. So I can believe that Anakin would do something stupid to save his wife, despite the hollowness of the scenes we see between them, because his perception of their relationship is what's key.

Well, he had nightmares for a few weeks before his mother died, and when he finally decided to do something about them it was too late and she died in his arms. So I can see him wanting to be proactive this time, not to ignore the warnings, and try to stop his dreams from coming true.

I thought that the first time I saw it, too. On the second viewing it was a little more believable (probably because I knew what was coming and thus what to look for).

From Anakin's point of view, the Jedi don't trust him, have been lying to him to control him, withholding the information he needs to save his wife, asking him to spy on his friends, etc. Palpatine, on the other hand, has always been his friend and as far as Anakin can tell has always told him the truth.

WHen Anakin went to Yoda to ask about saving Padme, Yoda basically told him he shouldn't try to save her. When he talked to Palpatine about it, Palpatine said there was a way and he'd help him find it. So that's a pretty easy choice to make, assuming you can get over the "dark side" stigma. And if Palpatine's been a dark sider all along and still managed to be (in Anakin's experience) an upstanding guy, then maybe the dark side isn't so bad after all.

Add to that the lies Palpatine's been feeding him about the Jedi being corrupt and wanting to overthrow the Republic. And then Anakin catches Mace in an admittedly all-too-coincidental moment with Palpatine at saberpoint. Mace is ready to kill frail-old-man-Palpatine without benefit of a trial. Anakin is afraid that with Palpatine's loss so goes the knowledge he needs to save Padme. Desperate, he tries to stop Mace from killing Palpatine and ends up betraying Mace instead.

So that's one murder on his conscience. Plus Count Dooku earlier in the film. Palpatine again spins things to imply to Anakin that the Jedi were corrupt and what he did was okay. And again the promise of saving Padme. I think it's just too much too fast for him-- I've never thought Anakin was particularly mature-- and when he has to choose a side quickly, Palpatine's seems lucrative.

Admittedly, that's still a few steps away from mass murder. But I think he's on a slippery slope by then. And I think the dark side makes it very easy to rationalize that what you're doing is okay. The Jedi were all bad guys! They want to overthrow democracy and take over the galaxy! They've been brainwashing all these children!

And, once he started using the dark side, he probably started to like it. All that power he wasn't allowed to use before. All the freedom from the restrictions of the Jedi code. And then it gets easier and easier to keep using it, until it warps his entire perception of things to the point where he can actually attack Padme. He assumes Padme's having an affair with Obi-Wan. He assumes Obi-Wan has told her lies about him. If she's not with him, she's an enemy. And still he claims he's doing this for the right reasons; he's ended the war, he's going to overthrow Palpatine and restore order... Rationalization at its best.

And incidentally, Obi-Wan breaks my heart. Anakin and Padme may be passionless, but Ewan McGregor really nailed his part for me. And it's all too easy to believe he grew up into Alec Guinness.

Okay, now that I've written a novel, maybe I will try to sleep Thank you all for letting me blather on about this! I really am enjoying the conversation, especially with people who don't consider themselves 'fans' and have a different way of looking at things than... um... people like me.

Kaylle

Oh goody. I'll play!

I find Anakin and Padme to very hollow. And I know Natalie Portman is reportedly an excellent actress, but she had played Padme so very flat. That spunky, 'I'll shoot the bad guys, what kind of rescue is this?' Princess Leia could come from her is really... well, that apple fell far from the tree.

Unconvincing love scenes aside, and winch-inducing dialogue to go with it, we know Anakin loves her. We know that what he fears most is losing what he loves. That makes him vulnerable in a way no other Jedi is. And the Jedi Council has no idea how to handle such a thing.

Geek moment: this is one of the things Luke will change. When the Jedi are all but wiped-out, he will take any and all force sensitive creatures at the new Jedi Academy. (I warned you it was a geek moment!) So for the first time you'll have married Jedi, Jedi who are parents. Jedi with 'attachments.' This will include Luke, himself.

The old Jedi council, as led by Yoda and Mace, didn't allow for that. So, Anakin, with his love of his mother, first, and now of Padme, doesn't fit the bill right from the get go.

Plus, he's far more powerful than they. And frustrated with the constraints on him. And desperate to save his wife and child.

As for the slippery slope. Palpatine played it so well. From Anakin's childhood he established himself as one who was very interested in this young padawan. He was in his head early. In contrast, only Obi-wan was any sort of father figure. The rest of the Jedi kept him at arms length. They lectured, they supposedly thought he was the answer to a prophecy, but they never did anything differently with him than any other apprentice, even when it was very clear Anakin was not your usual Jedi.

Now. Here's what didn't work for me. We know Anakin has slaughtered whole tribes before. The Sandpeople after his mother's death. But that he went straight to the temple and to the younglings was too big a jump for me. I think it would have been richer, more devastating, if his first legitimate move as Darth Vader had been to cross lightsabers with Obi-wan. To turn on the one good thing that had been part of his Jedi training as the final way to turn towards the dark side.

So, yeah. The immediate 'kill them all' thing wasn't my favorite. Though once he had done what he did in the temple, I can see how he could easily, from then on, kill without remorse or forethought.

I would have liked *less.* But there's nothing in this movie that's less.

Best moment: Obi-wan, who in the pits of hell, fighting for his life, still begged Anakin not to make that jump. "I've got the high ground. Don't do it!"

The really cool thing (in a geeky way) about watching New Hope immediately after Sith. When Darth Vader marches on board Leia's ship... we have this much more layered take on things. "Oh no! It's poor Anakin! He's still trapped in that suit!" And when he sees Leia and is questioning her, we all know something he doesn't.

CC

edit: You know what I just thought of? Thus proving I need to get a life?

Obi-wan walked away from what was left of Anakin. And gads, there wasn't much and it was extra crispy. I guess he assumed Anakin was as good as dead. But if he hadn't assumed that, would he have finished him off? Coud he have? And what would the universe have looked like if he did? Hmmmmmm?

Ok. All done. Going away.

Here we get to see Lucus' greatest advantage over other movie producers. The fact that his movies fans will provide for him all the logical reasons and motivations for his characters and story that he seems unable to portray.

I friend of mine brought up a good point. He felt that the wail of despair by Anakin at the end of the movie when finding out Padme was dead was out of place. Instead, he should have reacted with a, 'Good, it's what she deserved for betraying me' type of line. This would have truly shown the destruction of 'young Skywalker' and the ascension of Darth Vader. I agree.

Tank (who agrees it was a movie worth seeing but wouldn't pay to see it a second time)

Admittedly, this is probably because the books were written before the prequels came out and told us love was forbidden . But I wholeheartedly agree that the new Jedi Order shouldn't be forbidden from emotional attachment. It seems like a hopeless endeavor from the beginning, because you know some of them will, they're only 'human.' And if it leads to resentment against the Jedi code, that's a bad thing, judging from Anakin's example <g>. [I'm writing a story about just that, actually, because I'm a nerd ]

Besides, once he found the right woman, Luke in love is so cute! And his wife is awesome.
Isn't that kind of what we do in fanfic all the time? We examine our characters' motivations, write introspection, fill in gaps between scenes/episodes, try to find a deeper understanding than what was shown on the screen? I don't see any difference just because L&C is a television show.

Admittedly, I'm a SW fan. And I have kind of a knee-jerk reaction at the implication that I'll automatically defend the movie or try to rationalize why it was good. I liked it. All I can say is why I liked it. I know some people won't. I do understand that.

But at this point, after eight years of being a fan (not as long as some; I came late to the fold , but still more than a third of my life!), SW is so much more than six movies to me. It's a set of characters and a universe that extends from the bones the six movies laid out. I don't worship George Lucas, anymore than any of us probably worship Debra Joy Levine or Robert Singer (or Shuster and Siegel, for that matter). He made lots of mistakes, as does probably any writer anywhere. Because SW is such a big name, his are more visible and obvious. But, flawed or not, I love what became of his creation.

So to me, the movie isn't the end-all and be-all. I was hugely impressed by/pleased with the movie. But the first thing I did afterwards was sit down and read the book. That gives me a different perspective, and I'm the first to admit it isn't fair to argue the merits of the movie from the book. But both versions become part of the larger tapestry, and that's the universe I play in. So I like to get all my facts straight. I think most (good) fanfic writers do that: try to absorb as much information about their show/movie/etc as they can.

Also, there were a lot of scenes cut from the movie for time. I really wish some of them had been left (especially the explanation for the Qui-Gon tag at the end; without that scene Yoda's conversation with Obi-Wan makes no sense at all). I'm hopeful that the DVD will include them as special features. In the meantime, I had to find out how they should have played out

Kaylle

I consider myself a SW geek in that I *want* to love these movies, and even though I complain about them myself, I will defend them against anyone who I think is really truly picking on them in a mean spirited way. I've seen all three of the original movies at least a dozen times each, and I've bought "Attack of the Clones" DVD ostensibly to give to my 5-year old beginner-SW geek but is really for myself.

The thing is, I want so much to believe in the love between Anakin and Padme. Despite the very bad dialogue and stiff acting between Hayden Christiansen and Natalie Portman, I thrilled and squeeed during AotC when the two of them started falling in love. I gave myself a healthy dose of suspension of disbelief and let myself fall into the story because I'm such a sucker for a romance. Heck, my favorite part of the first three movies was the Hans Solo/Princess Leia flitration.

So I wanted them to be in love, and I was even willing to ignore all the physical junk that messed up my ability to lose myself in the fantasy (bad acting, bad dialogue). Even in this episode I was ready to buy into the Anakin losing his mind after Padme dies scenario because it is oh, so romantic! I guess that's why I was disappointed in the way things were handled. If Padme had died first - before Anakin turned to the dark side, I would have bought the premise of love being a motivator much better. I could have completely bought into the idea that Anakin was raging against the light side of the force for taking his one true love away from him despite all he'd done in the name of good, deciding to embrace the dark side so as never to experience love and subsequent pain again.

As the movie was written, the love story was simply too weak. I agree with Tank's friend in that Darth Vadar's reaction after learning of Padme's death was more than a little off. Especially given how he pretty much nearly killed her himself when he believed she'd betrayed him. I would have liked to see a little bit of guilt and remorse over that.

Oh wait - I forgot. I did love the genious of Palpatine/Emperor telling Darth Vadar that he'd been the one who killed Padme. Except by this time Darth already had his mask on, and I would have given anything to watch Anakin's face as he was told this lie - agony and remorse and self-loathing, all combining to push him that final few centimeters into the dark-side of the force abyss. Instead all we got was the blank Darth Vadar mask and a scream.

I was also very frustrated that Padme, who had at one time been queen of her planet and a teenaged senator AND also fought valiantly for her life against scary alien monsters had become nothing more than a wet mop in this movie. She didn't do much more than wring her hands and grow pregnant very, very quickly. I wanted her to shake Anakin and tell him to snap out of it.

What really irritated me was her death of a supposed broken heart. What? She did not strike me as such a little simpering miss who would leave behind two babies just because her husband had taken a dive off the deep end. I won't even go into how her death completely yanked Leia's line about remembering her mother into discontinuity since according to this new development her mother died before Leia was all of five minutes old.

Again, I would have been far more pleased if Padme had realised what a threat Anakin now was, her heart broken all the same, but she spirits her children off to some distant planet and simulates her own death so that Anakin/Darth will not try to find her. That would have had the same affect on Anakin/Darth as her real death did. She could have lived for a few years in misery and then finally die of her broken heart when she learns how evil her husband had become. A lot less dramatic, sure, but more believable IMO.

Now, I don't really want to become a SW geek of the CC magnitude, but are there any SW books out there that give me a love story between Anakin and Padme that will really make me swoon? Or do I need to start looking for SW fanfic or, god forbid, start nagging CC to write some?

Lynn

Just popping in quickly to respond to something from Lynn:

Well, initially that disturbed me too, but I think I've come up with the solution.

In VI, Leia tells Luke that she remembers just "images" of her mother, because her mother died when Leia was very young. And obviously she wouldn't have any images of Padme at all.

So I assume that the "mother" Leia remembers is Organa's wife, who takes the baby in her arms when he arrives back home. All her life Leia would have thought of those two people as her parents. I haven't read the books - did she even know that she was adopted?

So the mother that she's remembering is not her biological mother, and in fact has nothing to do with Luke at all...

Kathy

I haven't yet seen the movie but nothing mentioned here is really a spoiler since all of that was known before movie #1. Just wanted to mention something I'd thought of way back in Phantom Menace.

Anakin's supposed to bring "balance to the Force." I wonder if the geniouses on the Jedi Council realized that the Force was already unbalanced in favor of the Jedi. After all, many Jedi, two or three Sith. Bringing "balance" would only mean bad things for them. Hmm, food for thought.

Lol! This has always bothered me. Lots of lightsiders, no darksiders. Why in God's name would you want balance?! But I guess they "misread" the prophecy...

It's been a long time since I read the Return of the Jedi novel, but I don't think this was ever definitively answered. I have a vague memory that Leia remembered her mother being Alderaan's minister of education or something? I've always sort of wondered how she could now, because it seems hard to believe the people would accept an adopted princess. Then again, Alderaan was supposed to be the perfect planet, so maybe they didn't mind <g>. But yes, I just assume the mother Leia remembers is the queen of Alderaan. I think she too died when Leia was very little, because the books always mention that her father and three aunts raised her.

I've mostly avoided the prequel novels like the plague . I personally don't like to read about Padme and Anakin, so I didn't finish the Attack of the Clones novelization, but I seem to remember there were a lot of romantic scenes. I can't say much more than that. CC?

Of course, if CC wants to write A/P, she might convince me to like them <g>. Until then I'll stick with Han/Leia (my favorites!) and Luke/Mara. Less squeamish all around

Although, after this movie, I'm sorely tempted to start reading Obi-Wan/(insert female here) stories

Kaylle

Okay, I'm back again because I found something else to talk about and I'm procrastinating finishing my packing

Yeah, I was really surprised at how large she was, even at the beginning of the movie. It doesn't seem like much time passes during the course of the film, and at the end of it she gives birth to babies that look full-term. So was she eight months pregnant from the beginning? Did she wait until she was eight months pregnant before she told her husband?! I can understand wanting to tell him in person, and I guess he'd been away for a long time, but there comes a point when enough is enough <g>.

I also would have liked to see more of the repercussions of her pregnancy when no one knows they're married. This was something that was mentioned in a lot of interviews beforehand, that Padme's senatorial costumes were going to get looser because she's trying to hide her pregnancy. And there's that throwaway comment about the queen of Naboo asking her to step down as senator. I would have liked to see her dealing with the real-life issues of living in secret.

I was also hoping the immaturity of their relationship would contribute somewhat to Anakin's demise. I mean, she admitted she loved him, they had a big battle, and then they got married. Not much time to consider that decision. And they've never come off as very mature. So I was hoping to see some trouble between them, some implication that maybe getting married so fast wasn't a good idea. That would have redeemed the shallowness of the romance for me, because it would have had consequences. Look kids, it's not such a great idea to jump into things! Instead they appear to be perfectly happy together, despite living in secret and never seeing each other. And that's another thing; how do they hide the fact that Anakin's apparently living with her, or at least sleeping over a lot?

On the other hand, all of that backstory/character development probably got cut for time. I'm still waiting for that DVD...

Kaylle
(really stopping now and finishing her packing...)

P.S. If anyone's interested in the books, there's a timeline of books and fan reviews on TheForce.net . I don't always agree with their reviews, but it might be a place to start, especially with the prequels where I can't offer much advice.

Just (finally) saw the movie. Still not entirely sure what I think. I asked Mom for her thoughts, but she said I had to go first. So, we've been going back and forth. We've now both stated that we're going to wait for the other. Of course, I'm right. I did ask first...

Anyway...

I agree with most of what's been said here. Not sure how much I have to add. Very good movie, but not perfect. Padme and Anakin's scenes just don't cut it for me. They're better than in the previous two movies, but still not at all convincing.

If I accept, however, that they were what Lucas thought they were (beautiful scenes of epic love), then that makes the rest fall a little more into place.

As for Haden and Anakin... Anakin's jump to murdering children was too big for me to accept, but his going to the dark side wasn't. The thing is that they've been careful to show us his darker nature in the last two movies. At this point, what I have the hardest time believing is the end of Return of the Jedi. He converts back, and is (immediately) accepted amongst the ghosts of the Jedi? That's a bit much for me. Padme thoughtthere's good in him still, but Padme thought a lot of things (or, come to that, not very many...).

The timing of the pregnancy confused me, too. Not to mention the time space between the end of this movie and the beginning of the next. Is less than 20 years really enough time for the entire galaxy to accept Palpatine's rule? For him to convert everything into a ruthless Empire? I guess it's possible, but it seems a bit of a stretch to me.

Oh, and the Jedi falling. From a thematic point of view, it works. Very well. OTOH, I couldn't help but wonder why these powerful, vaunted Jedi could go from being able to defend themselves against entire roomfulls (or squadrons) of battle droids to falling defenseless against small handfulls of (admittedly trusted) soldiers. Why couldn't they sense the danger and defend themselves or escape or something?

I guess there are plenty of nits to pick. Still, it was a very good movie, overall.

Haden made a poor whiny love-struck Anakin, but he made a chillingly convincing powerfully evil and destructive Vader.

I liked the parity between various scenes, too. The fights between Yoda and Palptaine and between Obi Wan and Anakin. The births of the twins and Vader. Unsubtle, perhaps, but still a nice touch.

The plot did explain quite a few things and it set everything up very neatly for the next three movies.

I'm not sure what to think of all the cameos, though. Chewie and... Wedge? Or was that Wedge's father? Seems like you couldn't turn around without walking into someone from the next trillogy.

It was also cool seeing the similarities between these movies and the other three. Seeing how Luke walked along the same path as his father, and where his choices differed. That also makes it more belivable, thematically at least, that he's the one to redeem Anakin.

I hadn't really thought about that "NOOOOOO" at the end, other than to think it seemed just a bit cheesy. Not sure what reaction I'd want to see there. I guess the idea is "I did all this for her, and, because of me, she's dead anyway." You'd think that'd make him give up on everything, though, not just the light side. There shouldn't be a point to anything for him now. His reason for everything (even if it's not believable that that's what she was) is dead. Is that what we saw in the next three movies? A Vader trudging on, doing his duty, because he didn't know what else to do? I don't think so, but maybe, if you account for a little over a decade and a half of doing so, and justifying it to himself as bringing peace and order.

That first breath gave me chills, by the way.

Uhm, what else do I need to ramble on about? The "order 66" sequence, even if I did wonder about it, was still very powerful. And that trusting little padawan in the council chambers...

For some reason, seeing the Corellian Corvette was very cool, even more so when we saw the familliar white halls.

Oh, does anyone know... that barren moon where everyone was gathering... Was that Yavin?

You know, I might just have to see this movie again in a better theater. The one we like didn't have a workable showtime by the time we got ourselves together, so we had to go elsewhere. That theater had a relatively small screen, and I'm wondering how much of my difficulty in following some of the dialogue was due to their sound systems and how much was actually due to all the background noise from within the movie itself. In any case, it'd be easier to immerse myself in the experience in a better theater. I think.

Something else... the fight between Obi Wan and Anakin. I was wondering how Obi Wan was managing to hold out for so long against Anakin, and then we suddenly see them pull the same move at the same time (the force push), and there it was -- a timely and firm (yet still somewhat subtle) reminder that Obi Wan trained Anakin, that they have the same style, and that he knows Anakin's moves better than anyone.

I think that's all I've got for now. Good movie. Miles better than the last two, and it wrapped everything up more neatly than I could have expected. I think I'd gotten my hopes up a bit too much because of this thread and other reviews, but I very much enjoyed it.

No, wait... a couple more random thoughts and questions...

How come Vader immediately sensed that Luke was his son, but never recognized Leia?

Did I correctly understand from Palpatine's explanation that his mentor (whom he'd killed) was the one responsible for Anakin's birth?

Paul

P.S. Back to edit in one more thing. Last one. I promise. For now.

With all the prophesising and all, who would have preferred a slightly different version of the medical droid's line?

"I'm sorry, sir. There's nothing I can do. Medically speaking, she's fine, but the script says she's about to die..."

Well Paul, I'm glad you enjoyed the movie, I wanted to address your two questions at the end.

Number one, Vader did not recognize Luke as his son at first, in A New Hope when he's chasing Luke in the Death Star trench he says the force is strong in this one, no indication he has any idea other than that Luke can use the force. And of course having the name Luke Skywalker, which could easily have been found from captured rebels or communiques didn't hide his lineage very well once Vader came into contact with him. OTOH, Leia never used the force to be sensed by Vader, and even after discovering Luke he wouldn't suspect having another child, he had no clue Padme had twins. Also, and I may be wrong on this, isn't it the Emperor who first names him as the son of Anakin Skywalker? I'd have to rewatch Empire for that.

I've read a few things positing your question there, but as far as I can tell from the offical line it's either no, or who knows, but probably not. As far as Lucas has said he's the chosen one broguht about by the force itself.

FInally a note on your P.S, I've also read it questioned wether Vader, through use of the force, drew on Padme's life to sustain his own after being injured. After rewatching the movie I don't think the timing quite fits, but it is an interesting hypothesis none the less.

Okay, it's effectively the middle of the night, but I woke up and couldn't get back to sleep. In part because I had a new question and a new observation to mull over.

The question:

How did Palpatine know about Padme? He was otherwise occupied when Anakin attacked her, wasn't he? Are we still assuming it was Force-sense? Or is it better to assume that Palpatine saw her first, before going for Anakin? Obi Wan left her, unguarded except by 3PO, and we don't know what happened to her after that. Could Palpatine have stopped to see her, sensed Anakin's attack, and then done something subtle and undetectable to her?

The observation:

I don't remember exactly how either scene goes, but I just realized that Vader's reaction at the end may well have been right, after all. Paraphrasing:

"Where is Padme? Is she safe?"
"She's dead. You killed her."
"No! That's impossible!"
"Accept it. It is the truth."
"NOOOOOOOOOO!"

-----

"Obi Wan never told you about your father..."
"He's dead. You killed him."
"No, Luke. I am your father."
"No! That's impossible!"
"Search your feelings. You know it to be true."
"NOOOOOOOOO!

Thoughts?

Paul

Note that I haven't seen the movie yet, but I can comment on this part. Vader was already in hot pursuit of Luke (mistakenly since he thought Luke was on the Millenium Falcon) before the emperor spoke these words after the Executor left the asteroid field:

"There is a grave disturbance in the Force. We have a new enemy, Luke Skywalker."

"Yes, master." (shows no surprise)

"He could destroy us."

"If he could be turned..."

"Yes, yes. Can it be done?"

"He will join us or die, my master."

(quoted completely from memory, so pardon if I screwed up a line or two)

In essence, the emperor was late to the party. Vader already knew who Luke was. I agree that Vader didn't know about Leia because up until the third movie (sixth?), she had shown little to no ability with the Force, while Luke had started training with Obi-wan. The closest Leia ever got was when she sensed Luke hanging from the antenna on the bottom of Bespin City when Luke called for her.

I suppose the Luke and Leia thing makes sense.

Wonder if the creating life thing was a reference to Greivous (or however that's spelled), since it turned out he was a cyborg. Or maybe it wasn't any of the above and the whole thing was, as presented, an ancient legend.

Anyway, new nitpicky question -- If Obi Wan was there when the twins were born and when Bail Organa adopted Leia, then why did Yoda have to tell his ghost, "There is... another... Skywalker..."?

Oh, and in case anyone is curious, Mom finally relented this afternoon and gave me a bit of her review. That was enough to start up a conversation. Mom, it seems, didn't really like it, though. She's not much for Sci-Fi in the first place, and she seems to have lost touch with all that is Star Wars (I think she was into it before...), as evidenced by the following quote, which was part of a conversation about visual effects and action sequences. "... and I thought if I saw one more flashlight laser come out, I was just going to scream." :rolleyes:

Paul

Yoda says this just before he dies - but to Luke, not Obi-Wan's ghost. Then Luke goes outside and has a conversation with the ghost, who tells him that "the other" is his twin sister. Luke realizes that his sister is, in fact, Leia.

Kathy

I always thought this little bit of insight on Luke's part was rather a no-brainer. How many prominent women had even been in the Star Wars movies up to that point? It didn't take a genius to figure out Leia was it. I think Aunt Beru was the only other woman even mentioned by name up to that point and you know she wasn't his sister.

Mon Mothma, head of the Rebel Alliance, wasn't introduced until a later scene in RotJ. And she didn't do a whole lot except mention the second Death Star and introduce Ackbar. It was left to Admiral Ackbar to run the actual campaign.

Hmm. Seems I remembered the scene wrong. Well, that helps. Guess it's been longer than I thought. Could have sworn it was Obi Wan lamenting that Luke was their last hope, but... Hmm. It's all fuzzy now. Guess I'll have to rewatch. Oh, the sacrifice...

As for Leia, that was never a surprise for me. I was just shy of 5 years old when RoJ came out.

Still, it was technically possible for another female character to be introduced. It's a big galaxy, after all. Besides, Luke had no idea how many other women had been introduced in the movie. For all he knew, we could have been seeing other scenes cut in to his story from lightyears away.

(I probably shouldn't think too much about this, or I'll start getting into Leia's "somehow, I've always known" reaction...)

Anyway, thanks for letting me ramble, especially coming so late to the party. It was a very good movie. Great visuals, some really moving scenes, and some nice touches like using X-wing, TIE, and Star Destroyer elements in the various ship designs.

So, like I said in the beginning, it wasn't perfect, but I really enjoyed it.

Paul

(For the record, this sort of thing is exactly why I see very few movies. I can't help it. Even as I'm watching it, part of me is sitting back and picking it apart. It's very hard just to let go and flow with it. It takes CC-caliber writing to do that, and that's not something I often find at the movies. So, I just end up being very picky about what I'm willing to see, making sure that there's a good chance the movie will be good enough that I'll enjoy it despite that annoying little voice in the back of my head.)

Paul wrote:
Oh man, Paul, you're absolutely right. Well, I was right about Yoda saying that exact line to Luke, not Obi-Wan, but...

there was the scene in ep.V, when Luke leaves Dagobah after he senses that Leia and Han are in danger. As Luke flies off, Obi-Wan's ghost says something like "That boy is our last hope", to which Yoda replies, "No, there is another."

I'd forgotten about that. So why wouldn't Obi-Wan remember about Leia? This does appear to be a loose end that Lucas didn't tie up so easily...

And Roger wrote:
I agree, but I will admit that it still came as a bit of a surprise to me all those years ago. Perhaps I came up with it about half a second before Luke did, despite the clue that something was up with Leia when she "sensed" Luke hanging from the cloud city.

Ok. I've seen it twice more since I last posted. And not because I'm any sort of geek, mind you. Purely for research for this thread and my Anakin/Padme fanfic<g>.

So, I've been thinking about the 'One to Restore Balance to the Force' prophecy. And if by 'restore balance' they meant 'get rid of the Sith once and for all'- and I have trouble seeing how that's a balance, but maybe I'd have to be on the Jedi Council to know?- then Anakin Skywalker does exactly that.

Since the Sith Lords come only in pairs, master and apprentice, when Vader picks up the Emperor and tosses him down the... big, long, tunnel-thingy in the final confrontation in RoJ, the Sith line ends with him.

And before his own death, brought about by that action, Vader 'remembers' his Anakin-self. Luke does echo Padme when he insists there is still good in him. Vader needed his own son to spark Anakin back to life. But once he does, Anakin ends the dark rule of the Sith once and for all. He kills the master and the apprentice is no more.

So, again, if that's what the prophey was about, then it was absolutely true, but a much longer, bloodier road than the Jedi expected, I guess.

Though, I have to say, watching Mace fly out the window... he sort of had that coming.

CC

Okay, so being the curious library bum that I am, I checked out the first two SW books (Cloak of Deception and Shadow Hunter) from Kaylle's link on the first page. My question is...well I'm not really sure what my question is lol. What's the story with these books? How do they relate to all the SW movies I've seen over the years? Are they the same storyline as in the theatre?

Gracias.
JD

So during my week with Kaylle, Jill and Anna (and then Kathy joined us for the weekend), they made me watch all the Star Wars movies from the Episode 1 to Episode 5. I slept through Episode 1, played Trivial Persuit through Episode 2, got poked and prodded at the theater to keep me awake for Episode 3, played Eucher through Episode 4, and actually watched most of Episode 5. I found the movies boring for the most part because I really don't find fight scenes and action all that interesting. The thing I am interested in, romance, was really lacking in the movies. I thought the story of Anikan and Padme could have been done so much better. I even had a dream about it the one night after they made me watch two movies in one day. I told them and Kaylle told me to write a fanfic :p . Since I am not going to do that . . .

Maybe I will read CC's .

The books are officially licensed, but non-continuity. The books basically have their own continuity, which is kept up from author to author and series to series as best as they reasonably can. That continuity, however, was created before the rerelease of Episodes 4-6 and well before the release of Episodes 1-3. There are things in those movies which contradict various parts of the books. Some small, like the layout and look of the Senate, some large, like the interplanetary reaction to the destruction of the second Death Star and the death of the Emperor.

Basically, the books are officially licensed fanfic. Lucas's companies get a cut of the sales, but they don't consider themselves in any way bound to the stories.

Paul

Maybe it wasn't that Obi-Wan didn't remember/know about Leia, but that he discounted her. After all, we are shown that Luke is strong in the force, and Obi-Wan has seen it. But neither he nor the audience is shown how strong Leia is.

Of course, it's been a couple of years since I've seen the original trilogy, and then only with the very surface of my thinking, so I could be wrong. ("What, you mean I have to watch Star Wars? Fine. Waitaminute, if I have to watch it, why are you lying down? Bah, stupid Wookiee")

I remember the scene pretty well and I was a bit baffled, too. I had to assume that Obi-wan forgot about her at the time (it was the 2nd movie, while Leia's identify was outed in the 3rd movie) and was just being reminded about her by Yoda or that he didn't think that Leia was powerful enough to take on the Emperor and Vader.

Another possibility is that the idea was just sloshing around in Lucas's head and hadn't been fully developed yet, so Lucas hadn't yet worked out the whole storyline. But if he's had outlines of the whole nine movies from the beginning, that probably isn't the real reason.

Woohoo! I'm back! I love this thread! Be back shortly

[Edited] Okay, I'm back now. I didn't have a chance to pop back in here while I was in Maryland with Anna, Jill, and Laura, but I'm glad to be back Scrolling to see what everyone has said... And my brother is "helping" me out, so you'll see his comments too. I take no responsibility for what he says.

Paul, glad you saw/enjoyed the movie

Lol. I was more bothered by the idea that Padme was the first to originate the "there's still good in him" idea. Like it somehow cheapens the fact that Luke comes up with it himself. Have I mentioned I don't like Padme? <g>

As for him being reaccepted by Obi-Wan and Yoda, I guess holding a grudge isn't really the Jedi way. (Ian says, "Nobody cares about kids anyways! I mean, face it, they're Jedi kids, so one of their parents had to be a Jedi, so when Anakin killed off the Jedi parent he was saving the other parent from having to be a single working mother or father! I mean, really, all he was really doing was saving Coruscant's economy. And second of all, that little kid was annoying!")

In part I think Palpatine had already taken over. That's what made it so easy for him to introduce the idea of the Empire-- because they were already at that point in everything but name. (Ian says, "Did you see Pulp Fiction? He took out Samuel L. Jackson! That man's fierce! Besides, Vader has that cool breathing-thingy. If you heard that in your room in the middle of the night, you'd flip out, you know it. And Vader did all those after-school specials about how it's cool to be in the Empire.")

Yeah... I assume it's because they were trusted soldiers. The Jedi weren't looking for danger from that direction. And in the middle of a battle, which it looked like most of them were (?), a generic sense of danger is probably so commonplace that they're used to it, and automatically assume it's coming from some enemy. (Ian says, "First of all, most of those Jedi had met Threepio. And if you'd met Threepio, you'd have a strong hatred for droids too. Because of their hatred for the droids, they were using the dark side without realizing it, which made them stronger because it's easier. Second of all, they couldn't sense anything from the clones because clones don't have souls. If you're a clone and you're reading this, you shouldn't be offended because soulless creatures can't feel things.")

I was a little disappointed with Chewie's cameo, since it was so heavily advertised and then turned out to be so small. I did like the idea that Yoda was friends with him . Also, for what it's worth, that wasn't a relation of Wedge's, it was a young Captain Antilles from ANH, who is the commanding officer on the Tantive when Vader captures it (the one that gets strangled, iirc). Apparently Antilles is the equivalent of Smith in the SW universe . (Ian says, "This film is about the creation of an evil empire. If we look at what we've learned from the evil empires created in our own world (aka Disney), we learn that it's a small world after all. [...] I wonder if that makes Dreamworks Animation the Rebel Alliance?")

I don't remember a barren moon. But Yavin IV (the one in ANH) is a jungle moon, so probably not. (Ian says, "Hey, that moon prefers 'fertilly challenged.'")

That's what kills me about this movie more than anything. This incredible bond between Obi-Wan and Anakin, all the years of their history together, and Anakin's complete betrayal of that. Obi-Wan's supposed to kill him for the greater good, but how do you kill your son/brother/best friend?

(Ian says, "Her last name wasn't Skywalker. And come on, did Anakin ever seem that smart to you?")

Seriously, though, I'm not sure Vader was certain Luke was his son. During the battle in ANH, Vader can sense Luke's power, but not that he's his son. Afterwards, when he learned Luke's name, he probably suspected, but as far as he knew Padme's baby died with her. In the scene with the Emperor, Palpatine says, "I have no doubt this boy is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker." Anakin responds, "How is that possible?"

Also, Tatooine is full of names like Skywalker and Darklighter, and Anakin and his mother were slaves, so he has no idea what other family he may have had.

And, as everyone else has said, he had no reason to suspect Padme had borne twins. And Leia never did anything to make him suspect her.

This is absolutely what I believe, and I've heard a number of fans make the same assumption. So it's probably going to become fanon, if not verified canon.

I'm not really convinced he had the whole thing worked out, but I do think he knew Luke and Leia were siblings. Otherwise the Bespin telepathy scene makes no sense at all. As for "the other," I've read that in the years between TESB and RotJ, many fans postulated Han was secretly a Jedi. What an interesting story that would have made...

Oh, Laura, let me point you towards some of the Han/Leia fanfic out there

The prequel books have been written in the last few years and, as far as I know, been pretty much scripted by Lucasfilm itself. So they should fit with the prequel movies very closely.

In the post-RotJ books, Lucasfilm selects the authors and gets final approval over the storylines. I think the New Jedi Order series, released in the last few years, was even more heavily controlled by Lucasfilm. While there are some details that conflict with the movies (although some of them, I think, could be argued, but that's another thread ), they are generally consistent about major things and try to tell a consistent story. Some are obviously better than others (I'd highly recommend anything by Timothy Zahn, for instance), and because they were written by so many people there are a lot of plots that don't seem to fit with the overall scheme of things.

Most of the fans consider the novels "secondary canon." That is, anything in the novels is true unless directly contradicted by the movies. And while Lucas himself doesn't seem too concerned with matching their storylines, the author of the RotS novelization, for instance, went to a some trouble to explain elements of the movie in such a way that they might not conflict with elements of the book universe. (Ian says, "If you'll remember and include the credits, the movie starts off with writing and ends with writing, as do the books.")


Okay, that's all from me. Time to post before this giant storm kills the power!

Kaylle (and Ian)

I knew there was a reason I liked Ian. Hey, Ian, how would you feel if I gave you a couple of robot pals (one tall and skinny, the other short and round) and sent you to an isolated theater so you could watch the movie and comment on it without disturbing anyone?

Kaylle, I'm not sure that you've mentioned a dislike of Padme before... Can't say I blame you, though.

Yes, Palpatine had pretty much taken over the senate by the end of the last movie. I'm wondering more about the general populace accepting a clone on every corner and a Star Destroyer in every orbit, but I suppose such changes can happen in surprisingly short times.

Still not sure about the order 66 thing, but your explanations do help.

As for Chewie, everyone seems to have reacted differently. Mom liked it and thought it was cool. You thought it was too short. I thought it was kind of cool, but kind of gratuitous. If he'd had more significance, I would have had an easier time accepting it, but this seemed more like "oh, well, we have to fit Chewie in somewhere... uhm, there he is!" And yeah, knowing that Chewie knows Yoda is cool, but also got me really confused. I guess they never met in the other trillogy, but it took me out of the movie for a while before I could mentally establish that.

Thanks for the explanation about Antillies. I guess this one was the Lesser Antillies, then.

Yavin was a jungle moon? I know Endor was. I'm used to thinking of Yavin Base as carved out of rock. Can't remember seeing much of it outside the hanger, other than an electronic representation on the Death Star screen. Anyway, there was a brief shot of Bail and everyone gathering over some kind of moon or shipyard or something. It might well have been in orbit around Couruscant. I was just wondering. It wasn't on screen for more than 1 second, though, and never named. <shrug>

Yes, Obi Wan/Anakin was the best character relationship in the movie (or either of the previous two). In no small part because of Ewan, of course. Gave a lot of depth and richness to their battle (and the build-up to it) and to the battle in Episode IV.

Anakin did meet Owen and Beru, didn't he? Thing is, though, he didn't know that the baby survived. Last he heard, Padme was dead. (Mom was wondering why his second question wasn't "And the baby?" I didn't have a good answer, other than to say that the scene, understandbly, cut off while he was still dealing with the news about Padme.) So, he may well not have known to look for Luke until they met face to face. Going by that assumption, however, is what led me to ask why he didn't know Leia. The fact that she hadn't trained or developed her powers is a help. Not entirely convincing, but workable.

Personally, I do like that theory. Makes for a very cool little twist.

Han as a Jedi? lol, that would have been something to see.

Thanks for the explanation about the books. About what I thought, but you know a lot more than I.

Hope you had fun in Maryland.

Paul

Woke up with a random thought, decided I might as well share it. Do please correct me if I'm wrong.

I was trying to think of a list of who in the Star Wars universe we could reliably say had seen the rise and fall of the Empire. That's probably a relatively long list, but in thinking about it, I realized something else. The only characters who appeared (in some form or other) in all 6 movies were:

Anakin
Palpatine
Obi Wan
C-3PO
R2-D2

Yoda wasn't in Episode IV, and even if Jango Fett had been in Episode I, I don't think he'd really count.

Of those 5 (or 6, if we decide to include Yoda anyway, just because he's Yoda), only two survived: C-3PO and R2-D2. Of those two, only one has a complete memory. Artoo is the only one whom we know to have lived to see the rise and fall of the empire, to have played a significant role in both events, and to have survived doing so with his memory intact.

(Others, like Chewie, were around and survived, but were on the fringes at the beginning or at some major point. Artoo is the only one, as far as I can tell, to have seen it all.)

Kind of cool, I think.

Paul

Another interesting thing to note, expanding on what Paul wrote, is that Anthony Daniels (C3PO) is the only actor to have appeared in all six movies.

And just so everyone knows and can nag *ahem* bat their eyelashes at her, Kaylle recently had a brilliant idea for a fic entitled: "How I Saved the Galaxy, by R2D2."

~Anna

I didn't much like it. But it was the best of the three prequels.

No matter how lame the romantic dialog in the latter 3, Harrison carried it off beautifully. He could have carried me off then too. I developed a deep and long lasting crush on him, because empire coincided with my youthful awakening of the lure of sexy men. (I was 11 when star wars came out. 13, I guess when I saw empire?)

Lab. Padme is very close to my grandmother's name (Padma).

A comment to a *much* earlier post... picturing Labrat in a gorilla costume. It actually makes me think of Harry Potter #5, when they mentioned the poltergeist shutting the cat in a suit of armor--repeatedly. That's rather how I picture a small white rat in a gorilla costume, only minus the pitiful echoing meows.

I've got a question about the Star Wars books. I haven't read them in ages, but back when I discovered Star Wars (well, I'd seen them as a child, but saw them again and fell in love with them when I was 12 or 13), I read a ton of the sequel novels. Many, many of them seemed to be consistent about Han and Leia having three children... twins, Jaina (sp?) and Jacen, and then a son Anakin. Is this based on something official from George Lucas, or purely "licensed fanfic" mythology? Or am I mistaken, and it was only one series that had those children, and others have different children/different names? If it is common among all, is it required? I'm just unclear on how that all works.

Han and Leia had 3 kids. Jacen (can't remember the proper spelling...), Jaina, and Anakin. The first two were twins, then Anakin was born a few years later.

The kids are not from anything official by Lucas. They're, as Kaylle said, secondary canon. Not official, but never officially contradicted, and consistent from novel to novel and author to author.

Paul

Back again, briefly I saw the movie twice more last week (people I know keep asking me to come along when they see it! Really, it's not my fault!) and now I know what barren moon you're talking about, Paul. Apparently it's really an asteroid field that used to be a planet, and the settlement there is called Polis Massa. No idea why that's useful

As for the kids, yes, they're Jaina and Jacen (the twins, born 5 years after Return of the Jedi) and Anakin (a year and a half younger). All the books are consistent amongst themselves, but if George decides to write 7, 8, and 9 they'll probably disappear

Kaylle