Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Lois & Clark I want my $40 back. (My review so far of Season 4)

My bad. HG Wells' book about Utopia was actually called A Modern Utopia. But he did write a book about Utopia.

Well, gosh, I am so glad to see so many others that didn’t like the Soul Mates episode.

So, I’m curious how you would feel if it’s briefly mentioned. I wasn’t particularly speaking of an entire fic based on religion. I know you haven’t read my epic, but I mentioned that the family went to church. That’s about all I mentioned. No specific religion was mentioned. So I’m wondering if you were reading my fic, would that brief mention have caused you to stop reading it?

Here's one brief quote:

Then I mentioned someone else asking if Clark was going to church. Then I mentioned the family coming home from church. That's it.

So I’m curious if that would have stopped you from reading.

Oh, I absolutely loved them being married, too. I liked most of season 4, but it just wasn’t as well written (for the most part).

Oh, a brief mention of 'going to church' like that wouldn't stop me reading, if I were still reading much L&C fic. Though it might make me half-raise an eyebrow, on the basis that we never saw any of the characters, even the elder Kents, go to church or heard them mention it in the series. Yet, true, it wouldn't feel out of character since, given they live in a country town in the mid-west, it's likely that they, along with most of the population, would attend some church or other in the area.

Mostly, though, if they do I don't really feel that I need to know about it


Wendy

Yes, many others have advanced this theory over the years. I think it was listening to them that enabled me to ignore the issue. Eventually. <g> Even mellow to it, somewhat. Also helped by the fact that like Kaylle, I don't tend to look at episodes as a whole, but as a series of moments.

A good episode for me is one where I don't ff at all or rarely in the hour when watching it again. A bad episode is one I barely stop ff through.

So an episode which has plot elements which bother me can, conversely, still make it into my favourite episodes list. All it has to do to rescue it is have some moments I love. Soul Mates and STG are good examples of that. I have problems with the episodes per se, but they are chockful of lovely little moments, WAFFy, funny, angsty, that I adore all the same.


LabRat

I have watched through Lethal Weapon so far, and I have liked them all. Frankly, I am enjoying season four more than season three.

Awww - so nice to find a kindred spirit, Lisa.

I finished watching my copy of season 4 this morning before I went to my massage appointment.

I liked most of it. STG was probably the "worst" episode of that season for me--not because of the whole guardian angel thing, but because we hadn't seen ANYTHING to suggest that they had a guardian angel before, and so it was difficult to suspend my disbelief.

That, and the whole episode was pretty much a conglomerate of disjointed scenes for me. I didn't see any problem with Myrtle Beech (except her name), though. I thought that particular arc was explained okay.

I liked being able to recognize actors from other shows (like the guy who played Father Mulcahy in M*A*S*H--Andrus--and the judge from Night Court--Dr. Mensa) this season, which I also loved to do in the other seasons. And I liked the Kryptonian Kronology too.

I hated the fact that the "can we have kids or not" arc completely ignored H.G. Wells's assertion from "Tempus Fugitive" that Lois and Clark WOULD have kids. Especially since that arc was no more than four episodes after Wells's most recent appearance on the show! Grr.

Anyway, over all, I liked season 4, but season 1 is still my favorite--despite its lack of actual romance between L&C.

And now, I'm off to read any and all season 5 fics. I'd been holding off on reading those until I saw all four seasons again.

I actually also got that feeling at the end of SL&V in the "your feet are freezing" scene. I know that exchange is actually in the script, but it seemed very natural.

Currently watching AKAS, and I have to admit to finding the Chinese restaurant scene hilarious.

I adore season 4 with some my preferred episodes like Lord of the Flys, Battleground Earth,Brutal Youth, The People vs. Lois Lane and Dead Lois Walking! But there are also Soul Mates and Sex, Lies and Videotape, Meet John Doe,Lois and Clarks,AKA Superman. Wonderful!
I adore the interaction between Lois and Clark, finaly married! They live togheter and this is really cute and funny for me! Their relationship is more complite and mature!
I love kryptonian's arc totaly, it's so touching and sad when Clark fly away!!! I know, there are "naivete of the scenario" but it's not important for me, I leave to fly the fantasy! This show is special for me because make me dream!

Well, I probably shouldn't have started this thread, not because I haven't enjoyed the discussion, but because when the same favorites kept cropping up on people's lists, I went ahead and watched those rather than watching the season in order as I usually do. So there are some episodes I haven't watched at all yet. And I will, eventually. I really feel strongly that fan fiction writers should know canon backwards and forwards, even if it's just so that they can write against it in an informed way. Watching these eps has felt a little bit like homework to me.

But I've seen a fair few now, and my assessment of Season Four hasn't really changed. It was weak, in my opinion, but there are, as others have pointed out, some fun moments here and there. A few quick thoughts, because that's all I have time for:

- I've always been fascinated by "Sex, Lies, and Videotape" and was really looking forward to it for some reason. It didn't disappoint. I like seeing Clark teetering on that precipice, thinking that he's going to have to either tell the world his secret or violate his own principles. I like seeing him and Lois discussing that, seeing them both acknowledge that their lives are intertwined now, and that whatever he does will affect both of them. I like seeing them disagree without Lois going off the deep end when it looked like she wasn't going to get her way. She still did everything she could to get her way, but she was prepared to deal with the consequences if she failed. CC Aiken did it all better, in "When the World Finds Out," but I thought the L&C writers handled this episode nicely.

- "AKA Superman" is another episode that addressed something that needed to be addressed with married Lois and Clark - how two reporters were going to manage to squeeze a superhero into their marriage. I liked seeing Clark come to the realization that he was going to have to make some concessions now that he was married. It's something all married people have to do, even if they're not superheroes. I did wonder, though, what Lois was planning to do when Superman, rather than Clark, showed up to speak at the "Ladies' Overseas Aid" thing that she was using to cover for Clark's surprise party.

- I would have liked "Lethal Weapon" better had they chosen something besides red kryptonite, which is obviously the most versitile rock ever since it does something completely different every time Superman is exposed to it, and yet somehow it's always exactly what the bad guys expected it to do. Go figure. But I did like seeing Clark's struggle to control his powers and his horror at the thought that he might hurt someone, especially when that someone might be Lois.

There's probably more to say, but my time here is up, so /ramble

Caroline

I've only watched the first 2 eps so far (no time!) and... omg... I'm sorry... it was so pathetic to me. I truly hated it. I don't remember seeing them back in the 90's, but if I had seen them, then I'm fairly certain this is why I stopped watching the show.

I came home tonight, super depressed after a day that I would rank above the top on a scale of one to absolutely-disastrous, and I thought... oooooh, I'll watch some L&C since I got the DVDs last week and never even had time to unwrap them. And after I was done watching those, I was even more depressed... I hated the first and watched the 2nd in the hopes that it might pick up some speed, but it didn't. :S (and don't even get me started about Lord Nor and his costume made up of used bicycle tires... *sigh*)

I ended up watching an ep of Smallville to cheer me up. One with Green Arrow in it. And I've finally got a smile on my face again.

It could take a long while before I pop the S4 DVDs back in the player. I'll have Superman Returns next week anyway - it's bound to stay in the machine for a few weeks cause I just know I'll be watching it in loop. *lol*

Hmmm… Interesting concept. But if people knew all the episodes backwards and forwards, fan fiction might not be as interesting as it is. Look how many fics have been written when the writer had no copies of the episodes at all. Some folks never taped them at all. And I like the fics where you can tell that the person is familiar with all genres of Superman. I don't feel that a writer should have to strictly stick with the way Lois and Clark was written. If that was so, then we would never have gotten some of the wonderful fics that are out there.

I just watched the first two episodes from Season 4 again. I like them. But then I rather liked the NK arc. But then I liked almost all the episodes. (I do have my favorites, though.)

I also really liked the SLV episode.

I’ve heard some of you mention that Disney was actively trying to kill the show. I’ve heard that, too, but what I wonder is why? What was their reasoning?

Nancy, check out this history of the series . It includes the beginnings of the show as well, but several pages in you'll find the Disney stuff.

It DIDN'T do exactly what the bad guys expected it to do. The bad guys are just able to think on their feet when it DOESN'T do what they expect it to do--except their plans still fall through and they get caught.

When the red K was first discovered in Individual Responsibility, Bill Church Jr. was originally looking for GREEN Kryptonite, in hopes of killing Superman. The red K was found instead, and Billy thought it would do the same exact thing as the green. But then they tested it, and Superman just became apathetic instead--it affected him mentally instead of physically. Not what Jr. expected it to do.

The second time, in Ultra Woman, the Newtrich sisters expected their red K beam to make Superman apathetic. Instead, it just transferred his powers to Lois. Again, not what the villains expected.

The third time, in Lethal Weapon, those who knew about red K pretty much knew it was "unstable," (I have a theory that it really isn't--see this thread ) but that it WORKED. I don't think Jerry really EXPECTED Superman's powers to go out of control--just that Superman would be disrupted in some significant way which would let the people paying Jerry get away with whatever they wanted to get away with.

I agree. There's nothing will make me close down a story file quicker than seeing some 'fact' which directly contradicts what we saw on the show. (Unless the writer is deliberately twisting canon and makes that clear in the story).

A solid grounding in the characters and their history, along with significant events in their lives, would seem to me to be essential to write fanfic - no matter what fandom you're writing for.

That isn't to say that a writer can't change canon - that's always fun.

I don't think you necessarily have to get that background from watching the episodes though. Several writers in the past have managed quite well to keep to canon and avoid having their characters OTT in other ways, never having seen an episode. Hazel springs to mind.

They ask questions about canon on irc or here on the mbs or they rely on their betas having the knowledge they lack and correcting them when they make mistakes.

Knowledge of other incarnations of Superman can add a little bit of spice to a fanfic, if blended in well with ours. But if the chracters are too far removed from what I saw on screen and veer too much towards being the characters from another incarnation, then that's not an LNC fanfic as far as I'm concerned and another reason why I'll be turned off reading.

LabRat

I adore S4, and always have. And the DVDs (including the one episode I have never seen, Battlefield Earth) are here, and waiting for me . . . but I'm still working my way through S9 of SG-1.

Why am I even online? I have the day off, the kids are at the zoo with my mom.

Bye!

I don't think so either, BUT I think the decision to make changes to characterization should come from an informed position, where the author says, I know Lois was actually THAT way, as per episodes x, y, and z, but I'm going to make her a little more THIS way, and I'm going to explain the change by saying that she was actually orphaned when she was two or married to someone else during college or whatever it takes to explain your alterations.

Readers of fan fiction KNOW these characters, and they come to every story with certain expectations based on what they know. Some are unwilling or unable to embrace characterization changes/AU scenarios at all, while others are willing to accept them if they're explained. Very few fanfiction readers, IMO, are willing to accept characters who don't ring true simply because the author doesn't know what "true" is. And you can usually tell when this is the case.

Admittedly, a lot depends on why you gravitate to fanfiction in the first place. In my case, it's not just because I want to read a good story; I can do that at my library. It's because I want to read a good story about Lois and Clark - or whatever characters I'm reading about that day. If the characters don't seem like "themselves," or at least like some reasonably extrapolated version of themselves, then it's not fanfiction to me - it's just borrowed names.

So if I want to write about Lois and Clark and have any hope of the characters ringing true to diehard fans, then I have to know canon well - even the shows that I think are kind of the pits. As a new writer here, I feel that responsibility even more; there are readers here who have "known" these characters for a decade, whereas I've just met them in the last two years. So I have to do my homework, and then, if I want to make major changes, I have to make them in such a way that they seem logical to fans of the show.

Just my .02

Caroline

Hear hear, Caroline!

I always thought there were plenty of good things in season four, sure it has absolute stinkers but so had all seasons.
The best part is the interplay between Lois and Clark as married. Seldom have I seen a on screen couple giving such a show of togetherness.
Consequently it’s the little things that I really in enjoy. Lois in Clark’s shirt, Lois learning how to cook, wallpapering their apartment the way they touch each other.

I enjoyed the NK arch but the episodes in season three were better, these felt a little rushed, but I did like Lord Nor(despite his bicycle tires). As other how said the great farewell felt cheapened when Clark gets back so quickly.

The marriage with the fake sunset and what’s his name the angel are truly pukeworthy.
Really how difficult could it be to have them married in the Smallville church, city hall somewhere mundane?

That you couldn’t have another marriage episode?

I hate soul mates. I hate contrived obstacles in a love story (Especially when it would be so easy to create plausible roadblock for these characters.) Soul mates feels like a star trek holodeck episode. What makes Superman work best for me is when he is only truly fantastic part of the world.

I’m really amazed that those things that should have been the high points of the series the revelation and the wedding are so terrible weak.

OTOH even though some absurdity I truly enjoy the Lois falsely accused parts, I think it is fascinating to see Clark’s moral breakdown, I wouldn’t have minded another fugitive like episode in the middle there.

Bob & Carol: had some nice waff, I enjoy them trying to become a normal couple.
Brutal youth: is a very interesting episode though a little darker then I really like.
Ghost: A-plot feels really absurd and Drew Carey takes far to much space. But it’s one of my favourites for waff. Lois suddenly hellbent on becoming a good housewife feels really real to me. Expectation is a cruel taskmaster.

Stop the presses: what is bad about this? The villains were not much but still, good ideas and good execution.
Mxymas: A really nice idea but it never really gripped me.
Lethal weapon: Just Beautiful and Clark’s horror at bruising her and how Lois downplay it are one of the high point in the series IMO. (I can’t believe there are so little fanfic done on this theme.)
Sex lies and Videotapes: One of my all time favourites.
John Doe: Despite disliking timetravel and dimension hopping I really enjoyable two parter Worth I just for the Shirt scene. Tempus at his best. ("not even Reagan in is hayday", "the Amish are not your friends and their workmanship are shoddy."

AKA Superman: pure enjoyable standard L&C.

The Lex files: Had plenty of nice things but I could have been without the phantom of a opera part, I thought Luckabee could have been a good enough villain on his own without ANOTHER psychotic son of Lex brood.

Got you under my skin: hated it, far to spaced out for me and bodyswitching and mindcontrol feels really overused by now.
Toy story: a true nonentity.
Family hour: is one of the best in the series IMO, chockfull of waff and wham(Lois being dismissed as an adoptive parent is just hilarious) but as last episode it not one you want to linger on. Trouble with human-kryptonian interaction could have been a strong B-plot, I wished they had used it more.

Some people dislike the less spunky Lois in the latter parts of the series, but to me it seems like character development. Really she has found true love, and this is more important to her then the Pulitzer prize that drove her before. Her love also gives her a self confidence that stops her needing to put people down all the time to feel good.

Arawn, a friend of mine is going to knock me upside the head (since we went round and round over this very subject when we spoke the other night)... and she's probably going to think I'm just trying to score points with you... but, oh well... I'm really not.

I totally agree with almost everything you said above. I really REALLY enjoyed season 4. It's what I had been waiting for since the end of season 2 - getting to see them as a married couple and how they would deal with that (and of course the increase in waffy scenes, kissing, ahem, and other things...) I think you are right about there being sub-par episodes in every season. Leaving out clone/wedding arcs and other such episodes, there were at least 3 eps that I never re-watch in Season 1 and a couple that I don't care for in Season 2.

And I agree with what you said about Lois. It was said to me that the Lois and Clark of Season 1 were too shockingly different from the Lois and Clark of Season 4. That Lois was b**chy in season 1 and Clark was edgy (liked to tease Lois and put her in her place) and that (while it was a gradual progression) by the time Season 4 rolled around, Lois was too nice and Clark had been neutered.

I will agree that the characters had changed, even quite significantly, from Season 1 to Season 4. But I really don't think this is because we had bad writing in Season 4. I'll agree that some of the episodes were substandard. Toy Story happened to be my least favorite of the storylines. But I'm like you. I think the fugitive 2-parter, Stop The Presses, Lethal Weapon, Sex Lies & Vid, AKA Superman and the Lex Files series were well written and explored some interesting themes for a married couple.

I don't think it was due to "writing styles" that the couples evolved. I think that was a natural progression in the development of their characters.

I mean, think about it for a second, Clark Kent in Season 1 was a young, green reporter who was fresh off of traveling the world. He met this spunky young female reporter who put him in his place (whom he felt an attraction to)... if you are a guy with any backbone at all, how are you going to react to that? You are going to try to put her in her place right back. You are going to try to tease her and irritate her and try your best to prove yourself and get her to notice you. (At least that's what I noticed of other guys back before I got married - grin).

Plus you have the fact that Clark was kind of a head-case when he first became Superman. Still trying to figure out how to deal with the dual-persona thing, and having to deal with Lois throwing herself all over Superman and ignoring Clark. I think that too lent itself to his behavior at the beginning. I think we saw a gradual softening of Clark because we saw a gradual softening of Lois, as she fell for Clark. In Season 2 he softens some because Lois begins to fall for him. He's still plenty edgy though when Dan Scardino comes around as competition. I think we see a further softening of him in Season 3 when he "has" the girl. He's still pretty spunky around Patrick, and even Deter (even though I will admit bad writing there). And there are still some classic spots where he teases her - like in "The Dad Who Came In From The Cold" where she asks if there isn't any language he doesn't know and he replies that he has trouble understanding her sometimes. Hah.

Then by Season 4, he knows that Lois is his and they finally get married. I think that finally strips away all of Clark's prior insecurities and his difficulty excepting who he is and his fear of fitting in. He no longer needs to tease Lois or try to prove anything to her. But there are still some playful interactions and teasing in season 4, in my opinion - Ghosts comes to mind... it's far from my fav and I haven't watched it a lot, but I seem to remember Clark teasing Lois quite a bit about her cooking in that one - and about her seeing Ghosts. I also think he's far from being "neutered" - I think there are plenty of times that he stands up and acts like a man. The scene from the NK arc where Clark is asked who he is to be making orders and he stands up and broodingly says "I am your leader, that's who" (not worded like that, I'm sleepy, it's the best I could do) - his actions there showed a far stronger man than the one we saw, for instance, during the clone arc. I think Stop the Presses is a really good example that he isn't going to just lie there and "take it". I could name others, but I'll stop there.

Anyway, mine is but one opinion, and I try not to be too opinionated or verbalize my opinions too too often. But I decided I hadn't used my opinion card yet for this month so this would be my chance.

<DJ slinks away from the thread...>

Arawn:

Yes! What a perfect distillation of my thoughts on the series. It would have taken me six paragraphs to say that, but it's exactly how I feel. It's why I use my fast forward button progressively more with each season, I think. The writers just got more and more out there with the A plots, and they not only don't interest me, they seem to diminish the things that are special about Clark.

Enjoyed your other comments as well - and DJ's - but don't have time to respond further just now.

Caroline