OK, maybe it's not quite that bad, but...it's not good either. I've made it as far as "Soul Mates", and I think I've used my fast forward button more on this one disk than I did on the first three seasons combined.

Of course, part of that is that I hate, hate, hate anything to do with New Krypton and that whole arc, so the first two shows were duds for me right there. (Someone here once wrote a brilliant plot untwist or something along those lines for the NK arc, explaining all the reasons why it made absolutely no sense. I want to find that again and send the author a supply of Double Fudge Crunch bars, or the junk food item of his choice.) In addition to the fact that it's a contrived excuse for gratuitous angst, it ruins part of Clark's characterization for me if he isn't the last Kryptonian. So as far as I'm concerned, it never happened.

And then there was the Slightly Creepy Wedding That Made No Sense. I realize that L&C is pretty deeply rooted in fantasy, but for me, the whole guardian angel thing crossed a line into Just Plain Weird. I'm pretty sure I'm going to have nightmares about Mike smiling in that picture at the end.

I did like the vows, though.

And now I'm half-way through "Soul Mates", which is kind of fun, I guess, if a little heavy on the "two souls intertwined" business, which I don't really buy into. I like Tempus, though, and think he's one of the better villians, so I haven't forwarded through quite as much of this ep.

I came to this fandom entirely because of the fan fiction, rather than out of any deep love of the canon. In fact, I didn't even have knowledge of the canon, beyond a passing acquaintance with the Superman myth. I read for probably four months before I ever saw my first episode of the show. But then, when I got season 1, I thought it was a lot of fun. The next two seasons were a little more uneven - watched but not re-watched quite as often - but I'm pretty sure that if I'd turned this show on in the fourth season back when it aired, I'd have shut it off again quickly and never tried again.

And that's fine, actually, because I'm still here mostly for the fan fiction . My thanks to the many authors who have provided me with so many hours of high-quality entertainment and who have, in my opinion, often improved upon and enriched the canon immensely.

Best,

Caroline, who needed to get that off her chest

I have never seen season four, except for a few random episodes on TBS or TNT, whichever it was, around 2000 or so. So I am viewing this with fresh eyes. So far I have only watched LotF, and here are my thoughts on it, in a completely random and non-cohesive manner.

Clark definitely has more of an edge about him than in seasons two and three, more like he did in season one. He kicked butt with the "I am your commander!" attitude, and he seems to have a bit of snarky humor going on, too. And Dean in denim and a baseball cap? Wowzers.

When Lois looked out the window of the Planet, near the beginning of the ep, I think I saw the top edge of the backdrop. Also, she shows a photo from Clark's desk, and it is a publicity still from Ordinary People. Since they were supposed to be on that island alone, who the heck supposedly took the photo? I doubt it was Spencer Spencer's people!

I know that Ching is being played by a new actor, but I never would have thought about it if I didn't already know it (if that makes sense). The new guy looks a lot like the old one.

Lois actually thought that Clark had sex with Zara?! If he had been on New Krypton for years, then I might buy that, but it's been like two days! She knows better.

A U.S. Army colonel fails in his mission and is given a message for the government, so he goes to the offices of the Daily Planet?! Uh huh.

Lois seemed to be channeling a bit of Clois while in the concubine outfit.

How did Lois & Clark get inside the force field?

Most of Smallville has to realize now that Clark is Superman. Not only did Lord Nor refer to J&M as Kal-El's "mum and dad", but he flew onto the scene wearing normal clothes. So will the townsfolk keep his secret? Will they come to resent him and J&M for inadvertently bringing bad Kryptonians to their world?

There were a lot of "yeah, right" moments, but I still liked it. It's fun.

Off to watch BE.

Yep, it's all in how you're introduced to it. Speaking as someone who was hooked on the show from day one, I watched every episode from the day it went on the air to the day it went off the air. I laughed during Season One, I cried when Clark left for New Krypton, and I stuck with the show til the end after the rest of my family dropped out, thinking it was getting to weird. It was sort of like following our town's hockey team towards the end; I knew there was no chance in heck they'd every make it through the playoffs, but I love hockey anyway, and I sat in the exact same seat behind the goal dodging flying pucks for six years. :p

I found fanfic a year or so after the show went off the air, and there are some fanfic rewrites that I definitely like better than the show! But I still hang onto my tapes (and my original fanfic scrawled by hand ). Without the show, there would be none of these great fanfics, and Lois & Clark has eaten up wow...the last 13 years of my existence in some fashion? (Makes me wonder if I should find a new hobby ROFL.)

Keep on trucking. (Or sell it on Amazon when you're done. :p )
Jen

Someone wrote a wonderfully amusing little vignette about that. And I'm ashamed to say I can't remember who! Anyone? Well worth a read.

ETA: Found it. I thought it was either Shayne or Tank. It's Shayne's Gossip

LabRat

Jen I'm with you. I watched the show from day one. During the four years that the show was on, I:

- Graduated High School

- Met my future husband and the first (and last) man I would ever kiss

- Got engaged

- Got married

So you can see why this show is so special to me. My husband would come over on Sunday nights and watch Season 2 with us. I think he might have thought I was crazy when I jumped up and down, yelling at the TV at the end of the Season 2 cliffhanger saying "What? That's it? You can't leave us there! I can't wait all summer to hear her answer!"

Then when Season 3 started and Lois was preparing to accept/reject Clark's proposal -- I was being proposed to (during the same month - weird huh?) We got married before L & C did and needless to say I screamed and threw a fit at the fake marriage. But I hung in there. And at the end of Season 3, I felt like my heart had been ripped from my chest when Clark actually left. I kept telling my husband - he won't leave... not really. But he did. And again I hollared and yelled at the TV about having to wait all summer.

Then in Season 4, we still watched every Sunday night - every episode together... clear to the end - even when they moved the show to Saturday nights at a new time. And then when they announced the series finale, I remember being so sad that it was all over. What were we going to watch together on Sunday nights now?

So, while I realize a lot of people don't like Season 4... it will always hold a special place in my heart for the memories it invokes for me. And I think in a lot of ways I agree with Lisa - that the characters showed some of their original spunk from the first season. I can really see it in the 2 part "People Versus Lois" and "Dead Lois Walking" - there's some real spark and spunk in those eps (especially the first one). People Versus Lois had a season 1 feel to it for me... accept they were married.

So basically I love the series for all that it was (and wasn't) and definitely all it inspired in this wonderful FoLCdom. I'm so happy I found this place.

-- MR

Shayne's "Gossip" is delightful, and even more appreciated now than before.

Does anyone by chance know where I can find the story I referred to in my earlier post, which explained away the New Krypton business entirely? I need to read that again so that I can reassure myself that it never happened.

Caroline

I just finished STGTTWNK and I have to agree with Caroline's assesment here. The wedding was beautiful (and, yes, great vows) but it did kind of cross the weird line. There is a lot of crazy stuff on L&C, but most of it is presented in a manner that allows you to suspend your disbelief. The wedding is just thrown out there with no explanation. Where were they? How did all the others get there? Why does their certificate say they were married at city hall? How did the rest of the world find out about it, especially so quickly? How did that photo and certificate get framed so quickly? For that matter, who took the photo? That's the problem with this wedding - it prompts too many questions.

But it was still lovely. Hey, it's a TV show, I'll go with it.

(Speaking of city hall, that's where I would have headed the absolute second Lois had her memory back after OW. But that's just me.)

I also found the beginning of the episode to be very interesting. I never realized L&C were supposed to be so famous that they were followed around by the tabloids and referred to by first names only on the society pages.

Oh, and I liked BE, too.

Lisa (who likes the NK arc *much* better than the clone/amnesia arc)

I am mostly a lurker to this site (sorry to say) but I come mostly to read the nfics (which are wonderful!!!).

However, I couldn't resist replying to this thread.

I got engaged and married at the exact time Lois and Clark did. Of course I am now divorced but that's not their fault. Mostly because I married the wrong guy. I was so caught up in their romance that I wanted one of my own.

I just purchased season four today and I have to say, I am so excited to watch each and every episode. I just finished "Battleground Earth". I never noticed that Ching was played by a different actor. I actually thought it was Teri's ex. Go figure. I don't think the show's demise was caused by the marriage. It was time for the characters to get married. They couldn't date forever. I was upset when the show went off the air but I'm glad I have them on DVD to watch whever I want.

I love every season and even if in fourth season there are episodes which are not so good (well, every seson has not so good episodes), there are plenty of wondeful moments! so, I love first, second, third and fourth season, and I was very disappointed there wasn't the fifth!

Simona

DJ said:

This is my biggest problem with the NK arc - the fact that the writers manipulated the fans' feelings so cruelly...and then gave them such a silly payoff for it. My husband spends more time at work every day than Clark spent on his big journey, but of course, the fans couldn't have known that. So my introduction to the NK eps was through the fan fiction, including quite a few stories written by fans who were grieving throughout that long summer. And their grief really does bleed through onto the pages of their stories, as they tried to give some meaning, some significance, to L&C's separation, to Clark's bravery, to Lois's sacrifice. And then they tuned in the following fall and got a storyline that was far less engaging and meaningful than the ones they'd spent the summer writing. Because all the L&C writers had cared about was jerking the fans around a little bit more (truly overkill after the clone arc) and making sure people would tune in the following season. Which they would have done anyway, surely, had they just been given consistently good, solid writing and a strong cast. It just seems manipulative to me, and I don't like feeling like I'm being manipulated by writers.

But I'll shut up about New Krypton now, I promise!

I did finish "Soul Mates", and even though the premise is hard to swallow, it did have some funny moments. For some reason, when Lois said, "...mild mannered...telegraph operator...?" and the camera cut to Clark in that geeky telegraph operator outfit, I nearly fell off the couch laughing.

Caroline

Ha ha! Me too Caroline. And the line where Clark says "This sounds like a job for... the Lone Ranger" and he sighs and rolls his eyes (I think he says jeez). I laughed out loud at that.

-- MR

I'm right there with you, Jen.

I'm just glad we finally got it on DVD.

Jackie

I watched 5 eps today. Sadly, I don't even think that is a record for me.

Thoughts on Soul Mates:

Tempus and H.G. Wells make me laugh every time.

Since Clark didn't remember H.G. Wells, how did he recognize Baron Tempos? And later on, how did he know what the "original" Sir Charles did?

Lulu's outfit wasn't right for the time period (in the second incarnation). Dressed like that, the townspeople would have thought she was a hooker.

Despite my nitpicking, I really did have fun watching this. It's just that I *enjoy* nitpicking so much!

BTW, HG's comments at the end imply that *he* is envious of L&C's relationship. This made me wonder what type of relationships the real HG had, so I looked it up on Wikipedia. He was not a one-woman type of man:

Maybe he just never found the right one.

I also liked BY; I thought the B plot was quite realistic and something many women worry about, even if their husbands aren't slated to remain young for decades.

I can't say S4 was my favourite season. For all that it does have some good episodes that I enjoyed. AKAS, Lethal Weapon, Brutal Youth, IGYUMS...just some of the episodes I love. Actually, looking at the season as a whole, I'd have to say I enjoyed two thirds of the episodes.

I'm in general agreement though that the NK arc was a completely wasted opportunity. As I recall at the time they were planning to really spend money on a huge premiere - I think there might even have been talk at one point of making it a TV movie - but then there were budget cutbacks and it all shrunk down to what we eventually got on screen. We had all the angst in BGDF about Clark having to leave Lois behind to go to war on an alien planet, alone...and then it was totally devalued by having him turn right back around and come back to Earth the next day in the pilot.

For all that and for all their faults, I enjoy both episodes.

The wedding - oh how I loathe Mike the Angel. Urgh. All I wanted was a simple wedding with family and friends and a honeymoon in Hawaii. <sigh> I could have done without all that fantasy nonsense. And whole idea of God giving our favourite couple a helping hand to finally tie the knot was just so...well, I have to spend several hours in a darkened room to decompress every time I think about it...

LabRat

I have this crazy attachment to Lois and Clark. I believe I was in fourth grade when I fell in love with the show. I was really young, so my memories of it had been pretty fuzzy until I had the chance to buy the DVDs, but for some reason it's always remained my favorite show. So, though season 4 has some...um... interesting things going on, I just can't love it any less.

I like the NK arc. Though I definitely agree Clark's sudden return was somewhat of a disappointment, and most definitely a missed opportunity, it had its good points. I LOVED seeing the assertive, "I am your commander!" Clark. No more of that 'I'm-gonna-sulk-and-let-Lex- and-Dr.Deter-push-me-around' kind of attitude we saw in that *other* arc. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for sulking and angst in the right places, but the take-charge Clark was so incredibly appealing.

I agree that the cheese-factor in Soul Mates was a little much. The episode is fun, though, and Dean makes a wonderful cowboy, so I can overlook it!

I also wasn't a fan of the wedding. Or, rather, the circumstances of the wedding. It was beautiful, and I adored the vows, but it did seem thrown in there without much rhyme or reason.

Anyway, it's got its highs and lows, and it's probably not my favorite season, but it's still Lois and Clark and I love it just the same!

Ah, someone else who feels this way. I did like bits of Soul Mates, but for the most part, I thought this episode was silly. I also don't like the whole "two souls intertwined" thing.

Hey, I liked the NK arc. It was a big improvement over the Clone arc.

It’s been a couple of months since I watched this episode, but as I remember, he didn’t say this in front of the whole town. And I don't remember the whole town seeing Clark fly in. Of course, I don’t have the new DVD’s yet, so perhaps there are added scenes.

I also remember the fic about the townspeople, or at least some of them, knowing. I always thought that Maysie always knew. After all, she was supposed to be the town gossip, wasn’t she? And unlike on show Smallville, where the small town has 50,000 people, Smallville is supposed to really be an itsy bitsy place. An itsy bisty place is more likely to keep secrets. And I’d still like to know how the writers of Smallville came up with the idea that a city with 50,000 people is supposed to be a small town. The writers need to visit Kansas and find out how big those small towns really are. I mean, gadfries, according to wikipedia the 2000 population of the capital of Kansas – Topeka, was only 122,377.

I’m like Shadow. I fell in love with the show from the beginning. I watched every episode with one little glitch, and I have every episode on tape. I did have some initial misgivings about Dean Cain playing Superman because he didn’t have the ‘right look’. After all, to me, Superman is supposed to have blue eyes, and he’s supposed to be bigger than Dean is. I mean I’d been a Superman fan since I was four so I had certain expectations. But Dean won me over as a fan right away. The glitch: I was out of town traveling for my job when the last episode of Season 2 (the proposal ep) was on. (Yeah, I know – Bummer!). I was actually on the road at the time and so couldn’t watch it at a motel either. I didn't realize that I still be out of town, so I hadn't preset my VCR. I hadn’t been home in ages, so I called my mom, and asked her to just stick a tape in her recorder, check the channel and turn it on at the appointed time. Sounds simple, right? She decided to be ‘helpful’ and cut the commercials which I had told her not to try to do. In the process, she cut off the END!! And this was from the woman who never learned how to turn off the turn table that you played the old LP's on, and she thought she could successfully 'cut' the commercials. Arggghhh... And for some reason, I never got to see the end of the episode until it was on TNT.

I liked most of Season 4 (Soul Mates not included), and I was absolutely furious that they ended the show the way they did without the possibility of even a movie to wrap the show up. Thank goodness for fan fiction.

And I liked the wedding episode for the most part. I could have done without the wedding destroyer, but I liked the guardian angel bit a little. I *didn’t* like that he had to help them get married.

Hey, we are never told how long Clark was gone. Remember Lois went to work, and it seemed like she had been working for weeks before he came back. Yes, it was just one episode to us, but I was always of the opinion that it took Clark, Ching, and Zara quite a while to get to the mother ship. Of course, the mother ship got back to earth much more quickly than the itty bitty orb ship they were in.

Hahahahaha. I know I’ve watched at least 8 eps in one sitting.

I just found this out not too long ago myself. Do you know there are still people on this board who don’t realize that HG Wells was a real person? (Yes, I know that for a fact, but I won’t tell you how because I don’t want to embarrass anybody.) Probably even more don’t know that he wrote a book called Utopia and another one, a really famous one called War of the Worlds. Yeah, those movies were based on *his* book. I think most of us have heard about the one about his time machine… but how many people know the book really exists?

I like the episode where the ghost tries to help Lois to cook. I really liked the end where Lois flings the egg turner at Clark and gets eggs on him. Then she says something to the effect of having gotten eggs on him and that she needed to get them off. I’m firmly convinced that part was just too natural and was never meant to be in the ep. I loved that little bit. To my knowledge, it’s not in the script.

I agree that it would have been nice to see Clark actually go to New Krypton.

Sometimes God does help in these things, LabRat. (I was not particularly crazy that they required Mike’s help either, but I do like the idea of a guardian angel.)

Ugh, I'm hiding my geek hat. :p I probably read them ten years ago, but I have an old, large book with some of his major stories like Inivisible Man, Island of Dr. Moreau, Time Machine... Kinda makes me want to dig it out of my old room while I visit the folks... If anyone dives into some HG, those are the most memorable stories for me.

Anyway, we now return to your regularly scheduled programming.
JD

*sigh* I wish I had time to sit and read and reply to this thread! What I've skimmed through looks really interesting, and I've definitely got my own thoughts to add. Maybe when the semester's over.

Anyway, I did want to secure Paul some free candy.

I believe the story you're looking for, Caroline, is Paul aka HatMan's What Do You Mean "New Krypton"?? . Don't we all wish it could have been that way? *sigh*

Paul's a diabetic, though, so you might have to go sugar free. Though I do hear he keeps Snickers on supply for emergencies.

Sara (grumbling on her way to homework...)

Oh, that's a cute little story. Poof!

I do like the NK arc, but it really doesn't make much sense. Maybe we could say that Jor-El didn't know if the 1000 that left were successful, and he had heard of some disaster and assumed they were all dead....

My feeling on this is that we got two and a half good seasons, then L&C jumped the shark with the long amnesia story arc in season 3 and never really recovered. After that we got increasingly implausible characterisation (especially for Lois) and plots that didn't really make sense. Don't get me wrong - I still enjoyed the series, I just couldn't believe in it to the same extent any more.

There are episodes of S4 that I love (Soul Mates, BY, AKAS, MJD & LACS, The Lex Files) and episodes I find thoroughly disappointing or just plain boring or that make me cringe because they are just so bad in places (STGTTWNK, Ghosts, IGYUMY, TS, FH...). I usually find at least a few scenes I like about an episode, but most of the time those will not make me rewatch the episode in its entirety (the conference room scene in FH comes to mind). Other episodes in S4 fall in neither category for me, they're just kind of "meh" (SLV, BACALAC, StP...).

To me it was a very uneven season. They seemed to be getting back on track with The Lex Files, but then we got those awful three episodes at the end where the only good thing about them is Teri's hair.

I also felt that the NK episodes were a wasted opportunity: after all the angst they should have opened S4 with a "three months later" or something and shown Clark on NK, fighting Nor in battle, and then have him return. It was just so pointless the way they resolved it. I did enjoy TAGD and BGDF, so LOTF and BE were even more disappointing to me.

STGTTWNK was just such a WTF episode that I can't really rewatch it, which is too bad because it's The Real Wedding, for crying out loud. I should have loved that, but I didn't.

Just wanted to reply to something Classicalla said in regard to that episode:

Not everyone believes in God or guardian angels. That's not to say that a show can't incorporate them (especially a fantasy show), but seeing as how we had never seen Mike before and we never saw him after, I felt it was just so random and silly. Combined with the absurdity of the Wedding Destroyer A-plot, it made for a very disappointing episode. I would have been perfectly happy with a wedding at City Hall. No fantasy island, no guardian angel, no Wedding Destroyer (urgh), just a wedding. I don't think that would have been too much to ask.

Could you elaborate on that? I don't feel that way. Characterization was something I felt was good pretty much throughout the series (HoL, BatP, and the Clone arc excluded).

P.S. That was totally Dean and Teri. The campfire scene in OP, too--not the making out part, but before, when they get the fire going. The way they interact during that scene is just different enough that you realize they're not really acting, they're just being themselves (IMO).

Yay! Thank you, Sara. My mental house is back in order after reading that.

As for Paul, he is my new hero and will be taken care of, diabetes or no. I can totally bake with Splenda.

And here's the thing I don't get about that (should really go back and check, though, because maybe there's a good reason): After Delta electrocutes Lois at Fake Wedding #2, we see the bad guys taken off to jail, yadda yadda. I know Lois was woozy after being shocked, but I'm thinking she was mostly all right at that point. What kept Lois and Clark from walking right back into the church and getting married? Everyone was there, Perry was ready and willing, they presumably had the marriage license (and I think all you really have to do is sign the marriage license to be married). Why did they go home and mope about it instead of just doing it?

The good news is that I didn't have a nightmare about Mike last night. But him smiling in that picture is still just...*shudder*.

Caroline

His smile reminded me of a frog.

While respecting your beliefs, Nancy, they aren't mine. I don't believe in any god and so would personally prefer that TV shows remain ambivalent about such things rather than hitching their star to one particular god or belief. It tends to alienate me as a viewer if they don't so I prefer them to be a little more ambiguous about such notions.

IIRC and unless I've forgotten something obvious - which is always possible - part of my problem with Mike and the whole God thing in this episode was that LNC always had been ambiguous in the past and never overtly partisan like this before. Which is why it was all the more irritating for me to have this religious theme suddenly appear so strongly in this episode. If they'd had a history of including the Christian faith in episodes, it might have been less annoying. Although I probably would have given up on the show long before getting to this episode if they had, it has to be said.

And, yes, the egg thing was an out-take that they kept in. I always thought it was terribly cute. <G> Dean's laugh never fails to make me smile.

LabRat

I can't buy the dvd's yet because I am too poor(*sigh*) , but I do have tapes of season 4 and I have to say that I pretty much like the first half. I love soulmates, DLW, Ghosts, I even dont mind StP, TTNBM is one of my favorites, I just love clark in that episode. LW, SLAV, MJD, AKAS. After that I think it gets kind of dumb, although there are moments that I like the episodes as a whole dont really appeal to me. I pretty much love the whole series and have my favorits of each season, but I have to say that season 4 is not one of my favorites. I do like finally being able to see them married though . Also i have kind of noticed that at the end of the season the actors really have no chemistry, they hardly ever touch except for bedroom scenes and I was wondering if there was some sort of fight going on?

What Marcus said.

There were several decent eps in S4 but mostly....
I was especially disappointed in the wedding ep - the whole Mike thing, the unreality of the wedding, etc. Soulmates - interesting idea - but too many really cheesy bits in it. Not sure I'm all that comfortable with the idea of reincarnation - that may have had something to do with it.

Still, I think those eps that were good are worth your $40. Although if you have the tapes...
c.

Season 4 starts off kinda badly, I'll admit, but I do think it gets a lot better -- I think the writers took forever to figure out how to write L&C as a married couple. TPvLL is flat-out awful, but Dead Lois Walking almost makes up for it. The best bits were from about halfway in the season until the last few eps. I remember watching the Lex Files and lamenting to my FOLC friend, "it's the best show on tv, and no one's watching it!" But that stupid wedding w/guardian angel turned off a lot of people, and by then Disney was actively trying to kill the show. <sigh>

It's just as well, I suppose. From what we heard in spoilers, their season five might have been simply dreadful. Fanfic's much better

PJ

Didn't mean to offend anyone. I personally think it's a shame that TV shows have moved away from including at least a mention of religion.

What I really find amazing that not as many people get as upset at the idea of mentioning reincarnation in the series. (Evidenced by the number of SoulMates Stories.) That's also a religious issue. (Yes, CC, I realize that you mentioned this.)

So if you guys get upset about the guardian angel bit, then why aren't you equally upset by the writers telling us that Lois and Clark were reincarnated?

And if some of you were hugely upset about the guardian angel, there are at least a few folks that were upset about the reincarnation.

Just food for thought....

And I'd like to think that you don't get turned off when a writer mentions God, but I suspect that's not so.

Reading through this thread, I was wondering when someone was going to bring that up.

I remember reading somewhere that even as far back as the end of season 2 (I think), the writers of LnC were fighting with the network to get their plots onto the show. I believe that what I read said that ABC (it WAS ABC, right? it's been a while) didn't want Lois to KNOW, didn't want them to get married (which was the "why" for the ARRG), etc.

By "increasingly implausible characterisation" I meant things like the series of obsessions they kept using to drive the plot - e.g. the whole "can they have kids?" thing which seemed to spring up out of nowhere towards the end of S4 - suddenly Lois went from being a professional to being a continuously distracted bag of nerves about something which Wells had already told them was going to happen.

Ooops! Posted in the wrong thread...

Umm, just in keeping with the thread, on disc 5 and still thoroughly enjoying. Going to be bummed when I finally get through them.

-- MR

You didn't offend me, Nancy. I just don't agree with you.

Well, it may not be the case that the authors of those stories objected to the religious element in the episode. Unless they're all individually asked on that question, you can't assume that there's any correlation between the two. Perhaps those authors enjoyed that element. Anything's possible. <g>

Why assume some of us aren't? I hated the whole soul mates thing. I'd spent all this time watching Clark work his little heart out to win Lois...and then Soul Mates came along and told me that he needn't have bothered trying at all because they were destined to be together no matter what he did. Or didn't do. Sucked all the romance out of it for me. Then I decided just to ignore it. <g>

Despite that, I kind of enjoy Soul Mates, although I couldn't count it as one of my favourite episodes. (It guest stars a rat though, so, you know, I have to give it kudos for that ) But then there are moments in STG that I enjoy hugely, also. I tend to just work around the elements in episodes I don't like.

That would depend. I can't recall ever reading an LNC fanfic where God featured in the plot (but that means zip because I have a to be read list like you wouldn't believe), but it would certainly depend how it was treated for this reader. Just as I tend not to read most Next Gen fic because it's not to my personal reading tastes, I probably wouldn't find much to interest me in a hugely religious fanfic either. I can't say I'd object to it, I wouldn't demand authors stop doing it, but it would just bore me.


LabRat

Respectfully, Labby, I have to disagree with you here. The existence of soulmates doesn't necessarily mean that the mates in question have to fall for each other romantically.

An excellent example of this is Long Strange Trip , in which Lois is Lord Kal-El's favored sex slave. His fascination with her was probably due to being soul mates, but he viewed her as a posession and she was terrified of him. They certainly didn't love each other.

Another, thankfully more pleasant, example is Tank's Future series, specifically A Future Rewound , in which Clark is ten years younger than Lois, blond, and in love with the female counterpart of Jimmy Olsen. Clark and Lois had a deep friendship, but they were never in love.

So, soulmates nonwithstanding, I believe that Clark, even *our* Clark, could have failed to win Lois. As it was he almost lost her in season two because he wouldn't be honest with her.

By the by, I love that this group can have calm, dare I say, even *pleasant* disagreements!

ETA: Just realized this post was completely OT. Sorry!

Well, I finished season 4. I had to skip a few classes in the process, but it was entirely worth it.

I really enjoyed the season for the most part. I really liked Lethal Weapon, Meet John Doe, Lois and Clarks, and the entire Lex Jr. thing. I even like 'Twas the Night Before Mxymas, even though Mxyzptlk (think I did that right) annoys me, I thought it was a cute episode.

I felt cheated by Toy Story. It probably wouldn't have been a big deal if it wasn't the second to last episode. But it was. There was very little Lois and Clark, just that obnoxious toy guy. During the little bit showed of Lois and Clark they just seemed distant and not at all like the very in-love couple they usually are. It was a sour note to go out on.

Otherwise I liked the season. Well, except for the cliff hanger. I suppose that's fodder for fan fiction, though.

When I said this I wasn't referring the writers themselves. I was more referring to the SoulMates issue also being a religious issue. I was doing that as a comparison.


I guess I'm finding out more and more that there are a people that don't like this episode so much. I wasn't assuming that about everyone. I was also using that as a comparison, because I don't think I've ever read any fics where religion is really big thing in the fic. But there are several fics based on the SoulMates issue. I also consider that a religious issue, so that's why I mentioned it. (Again, I'm glad to see that some folks didn't like it.)

And yes, there are parts of the episode that are cute. But like you said, I really didn't like the idea that they were going to be together no matter what happened because it has always been that way in every reincarnation of each of them. That's not to say that I don't think some people aren't meant for each other.

What's OT, mean, Lisa? Hmm... I haven't read Long Strange Trip. I'll have to read that. I really like the fics that do something really different.

Well, I went out to buy Season 4, but I didn't have Season 2 yet. So I went and bought that instead.

I'm wondering. I've seen ads where you can buy all four seasons together. Does anyone know anything about those. I suspect those copies might not be quite legal.

off topic

I LOVE Season 4....not so much as better than any other season, but I love all seasons. I love the first two episodes in season 4....Lord Nor is one of my faves. Man, I love Lois and Clark.

If I recall correctly, HG Wells didn't write Utopia&, Sir Thomas More did.

I wrote a long post here about my feelings on S4 and the the so-called "Moonlighting curse" and all that and realized I'd gone horribly off-topic, so I deleted it Another topic for another day

As far as SoulMates and STGTTWNK... I don't really buy into the soulmates concept in real life, but it works for me in fiction. The episode was pretty ridiculous, but I used the soulmates idea in fanfic later, so I can't say I hated it But generally when I rewatch the ep, I watch the last five minutes or so <g>.

The same is true for STG. I love the wedding scene. I love how happy Lois looks when they finally get married-- I don't think we ever see that particular smile in any other scene. I try to ignore the whole guardian-angel aspect and just enjoy the fact that they're finally together.

Classicalla wrote:

Don't get me started on Soul Mates. Just don't get me started.

As a number of people know, this is far and away my most reviled episode of all four seasons. I loathe it. I won't go into all the reasons, but the reincarnation aspect is one of them. Incidentally, I don't see reincarnation as a religious belief, though I know that at least one major world religion has it as a tenet. I see reincarnation as on a par with things like tarot cards and mind-reading - in other words, flaky mumbo-jumbo I don't believe in

(No offence to anyone who does; they're just red-flag no-go areas of belief for me).

Religion in TV programmes can also be a turn-off for me, especially when it's in-your-face. Not everyone has the same religious beliefs, or even has any at all, so I don't like it coming up in series where it's not especially relevant. In L&C, it made no sense whatsoever, as there'd been no sign that either Lois or Clark was especially religious.

Oh, I do. Depends how big a mention, but I can stop reading a story if I feel that religion of any kind, or beliefs I don't share, are playing too large a role. Susan Stone's Aliens and Strangers, for example, isn't a fic I'd revisit for that reason. If I want a 'Christian' story, I'd go looking for one; if I want a fanfic, I don't expect it to be 'Christian' or 'religious' in some way.

But that's just me *shrug*


Wendy

Well, here it is almost midnight where I live... and just the 4th night since I got my Season 4 DVD's... and I'm finished...

<sniffle, sniffle>

It's like reliving the heartache from 1996 all over again. When I found out that 'Family Hour' was going to be the series finale and the promised 5th season was never going to come to be...

I know that some people were disappointed in some of the episodes of season 4. But I loved them all. Truly. There are episodes that aren't my favorite - from each Season. From Season 1, I usually steer clear of "I'm Looking Through You", "Smart Kids", or "Ides of Metropolis". Not my favs. But if I'm on a marathon to watch the whole season... I still watch them. Season 2 - my bottom 3 are probably "The Source", "Operation Blackout", and "Chi of Steel". Season 3 - bottom 3 are - well, I'm actually not going to admit my bottom 3, because (yes, believe it or not) they aren't the clone arc -- I know, I know... put down those pitchforks.

And now we come to Season 4 - the season I just devoured in less than 4 days. This one is a little harder for me - because I am one of the few people who really loved seeing Lois & Clark as a married couple. I know some people have said that they thought the chemistry wasn't there in some eps or the acting was cardboard... but I just don't feel this way. I had an awesome week this week enjoying them. If you force me to pick my bottom 3, I guess I'd go with "Ghosts", "Toy Story", and "Family Hour". But actually I really really like Family Hour because of the tenderness between Lois & Clark. How hurt Clark sounds when he says "he promised he'd never make her cry" - made me sniffly. The only reason it found it's way into my bottom 3 is because it was the last episode. I hate that. I just hate having to say goodbye.

But of course, this time around it isn't so bad. Why? Because of all you dear writers and FoLCs out there that I just so recently discovered. Because of you, I don't have to say goodbye, this time.

Now, to uplift my spirits, I think I'm going to go hit Pam Jernigan's (Hi ChiefPam! Thank you!!!) wonderful site ( Seasons 5 & 6 - once there click on "Propoganda Central" for the HTML versions -- however there are also text versions there if you like those instead) and dive into a second time around helping of Season's 5 & 6. If you haven't read Season's 5 & 6 - I would highly recommend them. They are available on the archive - but at Pam's site they are available in HTML complete with posters and some of them have pictures in with the stories.

I loved reading them the first time around and I hadn't even seen season 4 in 10 years. This time it will be nice and fresh in my mind as I go back to read these stories. A big thank you to all the authors of Season 5 & 6 - and all you other authors out there who keep this amazing TV show and these wonderful characters alive and well.

See you around the boards!

I'm totally verklempt right now so talk amongst yourselves.

-- MR

(Okay, I feel like such a drama queen now - that was fun!)

My bad. HG Wells' book about Utopia was actually called A Modern Utopia. But he did write a book about Utopia.

Well, gosh, I am so glad to see so many others that didn’t like the Soul Mates episode.

So, I’m curious how you would feel if it’s briefly mentioned. I wasn’t particularly speaking of an entire fic based on religion. I know you haven’t read my epic, but I mentioned that the family went to church. That’s about all I mentioned. No specific religion was mentioned. So I’m wondering if you were reading my fic, would that brief mention have caused you to stop reading it?

Here's one brief quote:

Then I mentioned someone else asking if Clark was going to church. Then I mentioned the family coming home from church. That's it.

So I’m curious if that would have stopped you from reading.

Oh, I absolutely loved them being married, too. I liked most of season 4, but it just wasn’t as well written (for the most part).

Oh, a brief mention of 'going to church' like that wouldn't stop me reading, if I were still reading much L&C fic. Though it might make me half-raise an eyebrow, on the basis that we never saw any of the characters, even the elder Kents, go to church or heard them mention it in the series. Yet, true, it wouldn't feel out of character since, given they live in a country town in the mid-west, it's likely that they, along with most of the population, would attend some church or other in the area.

Mostly, though, if they do I don't really feel that I need to know about it


Wendy

Yes, many others have advanced this theory over the years. I think it was listening to them that enabled me to ignore the issue. Eventually. <g> Even mellow to it, somewhat. Also helped by the fact that like Kaylle, I don't tend to look at episodes as a whole, but as a series of moments.

A good episode for me is one where I don't ff at all or rarely in the hour when watching it again. A bad episode is one I barely stop ff through.

So an episode which has plot elements which bother me can, conversely, still make it into my favourite episodes list. All it has to do to rescue it is have some moments I love. Soul Mates and STG are good examples of that. I have problems with the episodes per se, but they are chockful of lovely little moments, WAFFy, funny, angsty, that I adore all the same.


LabRat

I have watched through Lethal Weapon so far, and I have liked them all. Frankly, I am enjoying season four more than season three.

Awww - so nice to find a kindred spirit, Lisa.

I finished watching my copy of season 4 this morning before I went to my massage appointment.

I liked most of it. STG was probably the "worst" episode of that season for me--not because of the whole guardian angel thing, but because we hadn't seen ANYTHING to suggest that they had a guardian angel before, and so it was difficult to suspend my disbelief.

That, and the whole episode was pretty much a conglomerate of disjointed scenes for me. I didn't see any problem with Myrtle Beech (except her name), though. I thought that particular arc was explained okay.

I liked being able to recognize actors from other shows (like the guy who played Father Mulcahy in M*A*S*H--Andrus--and the judge from Night Court--Dr. Mensa) this season, which I also loved to do in the other seasons. And I liked the Kryptonian Kronology too.

I hated the fact that the "can we have kids or not" arc completely ignored H.G. Wells's assertion from "Tempus Fugitive" that Lois and Clark WOULD have kids. Especially since that arc was no more than four episodes after Wells's most recent appearance on the show! Grr.

Anyway, over all, I liked season 4, but season 1 is still my favorite--despite its lack of actual romance between L&C.

And now, I'm off to read any and all season 5 fics. I'd been holding off on reading those until I saw all four seasons again.

I actually also got that feeling at the end of SL&V in the "your feet are freezing" scene. I know that exchange is actually in the script, but it seemed very natural.

Currently watching AKAS, and I have to admit to finding the Chinese restaurant scene hilarious.

I adore season 4 with some my preferred episodes like Lord of the Flys, Battleground Earth,Brutal Youth, The People vs. Lois Lane and Dead Lois Walking! But there are also Soul Mates and Sex, Lies and Videotape, Meet John Doe,Lois and Clarks,AKA Superman. Wonderful!
I adore the interaction between Lois and Clark, finaly married! They live togheter and this is really cute and funny for me! Their relationship is more complite and mature!
I love kryptonian's arc totaly, it's so touching and sad when Clark fly away!!! I know, there are "naivete of the scenario" but it's not important for me, I leave to fly the fantasy! This show is special for me because make me dream!

Well, I probably shouldn't have started this thread, not because I haven't enjoyed the discussion, but because when the same favorites kept cropping up on people's lists, I went ahead and watched those rather than watching the season in order as I usually do. So there are some episodes I haven't watched at all yet. And I will, eventually. I really feel strongly that fan fiction writers should know canon backwards and forwards, even if it's just so that they can write against it in an informed way. Watching these eps has felt a little bit like homework to me.

But I've seen a fair few now, and my assessment of Season Four hasn't really changed. It was weak, in my opinion, but there are, as others have pointed out, some fun moments here and there. A few quick thoughts, because that's all I have time for:

- I've always been fascinated by "Sex, Lies, and Videotape" and was really looking forward to it for some reason. It didn't disappoint. I like seeing Clark teetering on that precipice, thinking that he's going to have to either tell the world his secret or violate his own principles. I like seeing him and Lois discussing that, seeing them both acknowledge that their lives are intertwined now, and that whatever he does will affect both of them. I like seeing them disagree without Lois going off the deep end when it looked like she wasn't going to get her way. She still did everything she could to get her way, but she was prepared to deal with the consequences if she failed. CC Aiken did it all better, in "When the World Finds Out," but I thought the L&C writers handled this episode nicely.

- "AKA Superman" is another episode that addressed something that needed to be addressed with married Lois and Clark - how two reporters were going to manage to squeeze a superhero into their marriage. I liked seeing Clark come to the realization that he was going to have to make some concessions now that he was married. It's something all married people have to do, even if they're not superheroes. I did wonder, though, what Lois was planning to do when Superman, rather than Clark, showed up to speak at the "Ladies' Overseas Aid" thing that she was using to cover for Clark's surprise party.

- I would have liked "Lethal Weapon" better had they chosen something besides red kryptonite, which is obviously the most versitile rock ever since it does something completely different every time Superman is exposed to it, and yet somehow it's always exactly what the bad guys expected it to do. Go figure. But I did like seeing Clark's struggle to control his powers and his horror at the thought that he might hurt someone, especially when that someone might be Lois.

There's probably more to say, but my time here is up, so /ramble

Caroline

I've only watched the first 2 eps so far (no time!) and... omg... I'm sorry... it was so pathetic to me. I truly hated it. I don't remember seeing them back in the 90's, but if I had seen them, then I'm fairly certain this is why I stopped watching the show.

I came home tonight, super depressed after a day that I would rank above the top on a scale of one to absolutely-disastrous, and I thought... oooooh, I'll watch some L&C since I got the DVDs last week and never even had time to unwrap them. And after I was done watching those, I was even more depressed... I hated the first and watched the 2nd in the hopes that it might pick up some speed, but it didn't. :S (and don't even get me started about Lord Nor and his costume made up of used bicycle tires... *sigh*)

I ended up watching an ep of Smallville to cheer me up. One with Green Arrow in it. And I've finally got a smile on my face again.

It could take a long while before I pop the S4 DVDs back in the player. I'll have Superman Returns next week anyway - it's bound to stay in the machine for a few weeks cause I just know I'll be watching it in loop. *lol*

Hmmm… Interesting concept. But if people knew all the episodes backwards and forwards, fan fiction might not be as interesting as it is. Look how many fics have been written when the writer had no copies of the episodes at all. Some folks never taped them at all. And I like the fics where you can tell that the person is familiar with all genres of Superman. I don't feel that a writer should have to strictly stick with the way Lois and Clark was written. If that was so, then we would never have gotten some of the wonderful fics that are out there.

I just watched the first two episodes from Season 4 again. I like them. But then I rather liked the NK arc. But then I liked almost all the episodes. (I do have my favorites, though.)

I also really liked the SLV episode.

I’ve heard some of you mention that Disney was actively trying to kill the show. I’ve heard that, too, but what I wonder is why? What was their reasoning?

Nancy, check out this history of the series . It includes the beginnings of the show as well, but several pages in you'll find the Disney stuff.

It DIDN'T do exactly what the bad guys expected it to do. The bad guys are just able to think on their feet when it DOESN'T do what they expect it to do--except their plans still fall through and they get caught.

When the red K was first discovered in Individual Responsibility, Bill Church Jr. was originally looking for GREEN Kryptonite, in hopes of killing Superman. The red K was found instead, and Billy thought it would do the same exact thing as the green. But then they tested it, and Superman just became apathetic instead--it affected him mentally instead of physically. Not what Jr. expected it to do.

The second time, in Ultra Woman, the Newtrich sisters expected their red K beam to make Superman apathetic. Instead, it just transferred his powers to Lois. Again, not what the villains expected.

The third time, in Lethal Weapon, those who knew about red K pretty much knew it was "unstable," (I have a theory that it really isn't--see this thread ) but that it WORKED. I don't think Jerry really EXPECTED Superman's powers to go out of control--just that Superman would be disrupted in some significant way which would let the people paying Jerry get away with whatever they wanted to get away with.

I agree. There's nothing will make me close down a story file quicker than seeing some 'fact' which directly contradicts what we saw on the show. (Unless the writer is deliberately twisting canon and makes that clear in the story).

A solid grounding in the characters and their history, along with significant events in their lives, would seem to me to be essential to write fanfic - no matter what fandom you're writing for.

That isn't to say that a writer can't change canon - that's always fun.

I don't think you necessarily have to get that background from watching the episodes though. Several writers in the past have managed quite well to keep to canon and avoid having their characters OTT in other ways, never having seen an episode. Hazel springs to mind.

They ask questions about canon on irc or here on the mbs or they rely on their betas having the knowledge they lack and correcting them when they make mistakes.

Knowledge of other incarnations of Superman can add a little bit of spice to a fanfic, if blended in well with ours. But if the chracters are too far removed from what I saw on screen and veer too much towards being the characters from another incarnation, then that's not an LNC fanfic as far as I'm concerned and another reason why I'll be turned off reading.

LabRat

I adore S4, and always have. And the DVDs (including the one episode I have never seen, Battlefield Earth) are here, and waiting for me . . . but I'm still working my way through S9 of SG-1.

Why am I even online? I have the day off, the kids are at the zoo with my mom.

Bye!

I don't think so either, BUT I think the decision to make changes to characterization should come from an informed position, where the author says, I know Lois was actually THAT way, as per episodes x, y, and z, but I'm going to make her a little more THIS way, and I'm going to explain the change by saying that she was actually orphaned when she was two or married to someone else during college or whatever it takes to explain your alterations.

Readers of fan fiction KNOW these characters, and they come to every story with certain expectations based on what they know. Some are unwilling or unable to embrace characterization changes/AU scenarios at all, while others are willing to accept them if they're explained. Very few fanfiction readers, IMO, are willing to accept characters who don't ring true simply because the author doesn't know what "true" is. And you can usually tell when this is the case.

Admittedly, a lot depends on why you gravitate to fanfiction in the first place. In my case, it's not just because I want to read a good story; I can do that at my library. It's because I want to read a good story about Lois and Clark - or whatever characters I'm reading about that day. If the characters don't seem like "themselves," or at least like some reasonably extrapolated version of themselves, then it's not fanfiction to me - it's just borrowed names.

So if I want to write about Lois and Clark and have any hope of the characters ringing true to diehard fans, then I have to know canon well - even the shows that I think are kind of the pits. As a new writer here, I feel that responsibility even more; there are readers here who have "known" these characters for a decade, whereas I've just met them in the last two years. So I have to do my homework, and then, if I want to make major changes, I have to make them in such a way that they seem logical to fans of the show.

Just my .02

Caroline

Hear hear, Caroline!

I always thought there were plenty of good things in season four, sure it has absolute stinkers but so had all seasons.
The best part is the interplay between Lois and Clark as married. Seldom have I seen a on screen couple giving such a show of togetherness.
Consequently it’s the little things that I really in enjoy. Lois in Clark’s shirt, Lois learning how to cook, wallpapering their apartment the way they touch each other.

I enjoyed the NK arch but the episodes in season three were better, these felt a little rushed, but I did like Lord Nor(despite his bicycle tires). As other how said the great farewell felt cheapened when Clark gets back so quickly.

The marriage with the fake sunset and what’s his name the angel are truly pukeworthy.
Really how difficult could it be to have them married in the Smallville church, city hall somewhere mundane?

That you couldn’t have another marriage episode?

I hate soul mates. I hate contrived obstacles in a love story (Especially when it would be so easy to create plausible roadblock for these characters.) Soul mates feels like a star trek holodeck episode. What makes Superman work best for me is when he is only truly fantastic part of the world.

I’m really amazed that those things that should have been the high points of the series the revelation and the wedding are so terrible weak.

OTOH even though some absurdity I truly enjoy the Lois falsely accused parts, I think it is fascinating to see Clark’s moral breakdown, I wouldn’t have minded another fugitive like episode in the middle there.

Bob & Carol: had some nice waff, I enjoy them trying to become a normal couple.
Brutal youth: is a very interesting episode though a little darker then I really like.
Ghost: A-plot feels really absurd and Drew Carey takes far to much space. But it’s one of my favourites for waff. Lois suddenly hellbent on becoming a good housewife feels really real to me. Expectation is a cruel taskmaster.

Stop the presses: what is bad about this? The villains were not much but still, good ideas and good execution.
Mxymas: A really nice idea but it never really gripped me.
Lethal weapon: Just Beautiful and Clark’s horror at bruising her and how Lois downplay it are one of the high point in the series IMO. (I can’t believe there are so little fanfic done on this theme.)
Sex lies and Videotapes: One of my all time favourites.
John Doe: Despite disliking timetravel and dimension hopping I really enjoyable two parter Worth I just for the Shirt scene. Tempus at his best. ("not even Reagan in is hayday", "the Amish are not your friends and their workmanship are shoddy."

AKA Superman: pure enjoyable standard L&C.

The Lex files: Had plenty of nice things but I could have been without the phantom of a opera part, I thought Luckabee could have been a good enough villain on his own without ANOTHER psychotic son of Lex brood.

Got you under my skin: hated it, far to spaced out for me and bodyswitching and mindcontrol feels really overused by now.
Toy story: a true nonentity.
Family hour: is one of the best in the series IMO, chockfull of waff and wham(Lois being dismissed as an adoptive parent is just hilarious) but as last episode it not one you want to linger on. Trouble with human-kryptonian interaction could have been a strong B-plot, I wished they had used it more.

Some people dislike the less spunky Lois in the latter parts of the series, but to me it seems like character development. Really she has found true love, and this is more important to her then the Pulitzer prize that drove her before. Her love also gives her a self confidence that stops her needing to put people down all the time to feel good.

Arawn, a friend of mine is going to knock me upside the head (since we went round and round over this very subject when we spoke the other night)... and she's probably going to think I'm just trying to score points with you... but, oh well... I'm really not.

I totally agree with almost everything you said above. I really REALLY enjoyed season 4. It's what I had been waiting for since the end of season 2 - getting to see them as a married couple and how they would deal with that (and of course the increase in waffy scenes, kissing, ahem, and other things...) I think you are right about there being sub-par episodes in every season. Leaving out clone/wedding arcs and other such episodes, there were at least 3 eps that I never re-watch in Season 1 and a couple that I don't care for in Season 2.

And I agree with what you said about Lois. It was said to me that the Lois and Clark of Season 1 were too shockingly different from the Lois and Clark of Season 4. That Lois was b**chy in season 1 and Clark was edgy (liked to tease Lois and put her in her place) and that (while it was a gradual progression) by the time Season 4 rolled around, Lois was too nice and Clark had been neutered.

I will agree that the characters had changed, even quite significantly, from Season 1 to Season 4. But I really don't think this is because we had bad writing in Season 4. I'll agree that some of the episodes were substandard. Toy Story happened to be my least favorite of the storylines. But I'm like you. I think the fugitive 2-parter, Stop The Presses, Lethal Weapon, Sex Lies & Vid, AKA Superman and the Lex Files series were well written and explored some interesting themes for a married couple.

I don't think it was due to "writing styles" that the couples evolved. I think that was a natural progression in the development of their characters.

I mean, think about it for a second, Clark Kent in Season 1 was a young, green reporter who was fresh off of traveling the world. He met this spunky young female reporter who put him in his place (whom he felt an attraction to)... if you are a guy with any backbone at all, how are you going to react to that? You are going to try to put her in her place right back. You are going to try to tease her and irritate her and try your best to prove yourself and get her to notice you. (At least that's what I noticed of other guys back before I got married - grin).

Plus you have the fact that Clark was kind of a head-case when he first became Superman. Still trying to figure out how to deal with the dual-persona thing, and having to deal with Lois throwing herself all over Superman and ignoring Clark. I think that too lent itself to his behavior at the beginning. I think we saw a gradual softening of Clark because we saw a gradual softening of Lois, as she fell for Clark. In Season 2 he softens some because Lois begins to fall for him. He's still plenty edgy though when Dan Scardino comes around as competition. I think we see a further softening of him in Season 3 when he "has" the girl. He's still pretty spunky around Patrick, and even Deter (even though I will admit bad writing there). And there are still some classic spots where he teases her - like in "The Dad Who Came In From The Cold" where she asks if there isn't any language he doesn't know and he replies that he has trouble understanding her sometimes. Hah.

Then by Season 4, he knows that Lois is his and they finally get married. I think that finally strips away all of Clark's prior insecurities and his difficulty excepting who he is and his fear of fitting in. He no longer needs to tease Lois or try to prove anything to her. But there are still some playful interactions and teasing in season 4, in my opinion - Ghosts comes to mind... it's far from my fav and I haven't watched it a lot, but I seem to remember Clark teasing Lois quite a bit about her cooking in that one - and about her seeing Ghosts. I also think he's far from being "neutered" - I think there are plenty of times that he stands up and acts like a man. The scene from the NK arc where Clark is asked who he is to be making orders and he stands up and broodingly says "I am your leader, that's who" (not worded like that, I'm sleepy, it's the best I could do) - his actions there showed a far stronger man than the one we saw, for instance, during the clone arc. I think Stop the Presses is a really good example that he isn't going to just lie there and "take it". I could name others, but I'll stop there.

Anyway, mine is but one opinion, and I try not to be too opinionated or verbalize my opinions too too often. But I decided I hadn't used my opinion card yet for this month so this would be my chance.

<DJ slinks away from the thread...>

Arawn:

Yes! What a perfect distillation of my thoughts on the series. It would have taken me six paragraphs to say that, but it's exactly how I feel. It's why I use my fast forward button progressively more with each season, I think. The writers just got more and more out there with the A plots, and they not only don't interest me, they seem to diminish the things that are special about Clark.

Enjoyed your other comments as well - and DJ's - but don't have time to respond further just now.

Caroline

MR,

I’ve never got the impression that Clark was neutered in this season; on the contrary I remember several scenes were he just unilaterally make life altering decisions for both of them in a rather overbearing fashion.

His love also take a more possessive edge, which is something else I find appealing about this season. Before he meekly accepted Lois dangling over the jaws of death in the most spineless fashion. This isn’t so in S4. Here I get the impression that he is genuinely terrified about losing her and that it isn’t much he won’t do to keep her. (that would have been another theme I would have loved to have seen explored. That Clark would have tried to be more controlling with woman who almost got her self killed every other week, isn’t that farfetched IMO).
If anyone is neutered it’s Lois IMO and for those who love the bitchy, self-absorbed Lois(and she has more dramatic potential) I can understand if S4 is a disappointment.

Caroline;

In defence of the writers I thought they generally did a good job of the A-plots. Even though some themes became overused. Clark is almost omnipotent. Delivering a challenge to him which also give Lois a chance to shine most be incredible tough. (Notice how few fanfic writers that dare to try it.) It becomes harder still when Lois is in on the secret.
For comparison, I’ve never seen Smallville but I’ve been told there is Kryptonite in virtually every episode.
Or look at what the Hollywood scriptwriters did with Superman Returns. Not really keeping you at the edge of your seat with anticipation, did it? What I would I liked to see was Superman taking on real world issues like starvation or environmental concerns, issues that he just couldn’t flex his biceps and they would disappear. But that might have given the show a more political slant then the writers dared. So they stuck with him stopping jewel store robberies and kids from spraying graffiti. Uhumm.. And time travel and more mind control…

Well at least the writers did touch on the idea of Superman stopping a war (and getting a little politically involved) in Sex, Lies, and Videotape. I bet that's why you liked that one so well - there wasn't a chunk of green Kryptonite anywhere in it.

-- MR

(Oh, and I didn't mean you to think *I thought* he was neutered - I don't... but there are others who do... And while Lois isn't b**chy, she isn't complacent either. She is still pretty spunky.)

I don't think I'd've liked to see such plots, whether or not it was a matter of the writers daring to add politics or not.

I mean, I have ideas for how to "fix" issues like starvation, but those ideas I have involve basically acting like Robin Hood--taking from the rich and giving to the poor. I mean, certain countries have large surpluses of goods, and don't even think to share with those that don't.

But forcing them to share (either by taking it from them and redistributing it, or by coercing the people directly) takes away those peoples' free will to keep what they own/grew/paid for.

Bringing Superman into the mix would only be another version of coercion, in my opinion--kind of like in Superman IV, where he basically forced everyone to give up their nuclear arms. I'm not saying that it wouldn't be a good thing to get rid of the nuclear weapons everywhere, but taking them away from the countries that have them just because you can isn't right either.

I thought that comment was really interesting. To hit on those comparisons, I watched the first season of Smallville. The first couple of episodes I loved! I'm all about some good Kryptonite. And then it kept happening. And happening. And happening. I haven't watched the show since.

Superman Returns was quite the task. I still love it and I own it, but the shine comment really hit home for me. And it wasn't just Lois for me. I mean, obviously we saw a ton of Superman since it's Superman Returns and not...Jimmy Olsen Returns or Clark Kent Returns, but you'd think for a two and a half hour feature, we could see some of the other characters. Yes, we saw a lot of Lois with the take-over-the-continent plot, but did she really *shine?* The jury's still out for me. But in any case, it's a good thing for Warner Bros. that I like Superman and Kevin Spacey. :p

JD

I'm going to have to side with Arawn here (as usual) in theory. Yes it would be nice to see Superman tackle things that are important on a larger scale. Mainly because of the point that Darcy makes and how a situation like that has the potential to "humanize" this Superman figure (by making him take a political stance, be it direct or not). There is a resistance to this because of how he's meant to stand in for some general concept of "good."

(which is apparently not connected to the American way anymore *snicker* I bet that ruffled some feathers...)

Making that a tv show/movie about that could be problematic though for the same reason.

Clark Kent can have a political stance. Superman has to be impartial and as fair and not-heavy-handed as possible.

I'm not saying he (as in Clark/Superman as the whole person) SHOULDN'T take a political stance--just that he shouldn't force his own political stance on others.

I liked SLV also, simply because he wasn't forcing the two countries to see each other's views--he was just trying to get them to talk, and then was asked to mediate those talks.

And from what I understand from the episode, they'd specifically asked for Superman or no one, BECAUSE they'd always found him impartial and as trustworthy a being they'd ever met.

Imagine that there was man with Superman’s semidivine powers and general humanism, What would he do?
He has the power to singlehandlly change the political landscape of earth for the better. Innocent people are tortured to death everyday because he doesn’t act. Ching even made a remark over this:

And what was that?! Someone who dashes about like a... (searches for the word) ... hummingbird? Who goes from disaster to disaster with no principle other than to be of help? What kind of code is that? A worm eats dirt because that's all it knows how to do. Yes, I admit he has ability, but look at him! Skulking around, wearing glasses, when I know for a fact they are completely unnecessary! And his modest style of living and dress! For whom is he pretending? Why pretend at all?! He could rule this world if he wanted to, and enforce what he knew to be a better way, and yet he refuses to.

To Ching, Clark is moral coward. And if it was as Ching thought that Superman sits back and just let people abuse other people because he was afraid to exercise his powers I would agree.
To me though Superman have thought one step further. Yes in the short run he could create a better world by force, but in the long run this would likely result in greater misery. Very few people likes to be bullied even if it’s being forced to do something that is good for them. And who is he really to impose his values of the multitude of human cultures? I don’t know but it makes me think on the Iraqi war. Just because you have the power to overthrow dictators it’s not necessarily the best move.
So instead of forcing people to be good, he works within the framework of human law and tries to teach people to be good by example. And respecting others point of view even though you don’t have to would give you an incredible strong rhetorical ethos.

By fixing these problem I didn’t mean resource transference, I thought more about beating the drum(and if Superman was real everything he said would be prime time news), building houses drilling wells, distributing food, medicine, basically peace corps kind of work. That Superman would spend time stopping jewel robberies when thousands of children are starving to death each day seems ludicrous to me. To me everything he does or doesn’t do have a political significance, that’s why a conscientious guy like Clark/Superman couldn’t really help but having a well developed political point of view.

If this was how he was fleshed out he would be much more realistic IMO.

Dude! You guys are harshin' my buzz...

And to me, Ching is high-handed and overbearing. Leave playing god to the actual gods, I say. And just because Superman has the power to do all that he does doesn't make him a god.

That is EXACTLY the point I was trying to make.

It doesn't seem very ludicrous to me, when I remember that superheros are basically pumped-up police/rescue workers/vigilantes. No matter what their power, they all fit into one or two of those three categories, if not all three.

Superman spends his time on the occasional jewel robbery, yes--but that's usually just in Metropolis, his main area where he can hear that sort of minor thing. When he hears about a natural disaster, he goes to help, but he can't be everywhere at once.

He NEEDS to be Clark, and that's what Ching didn't get--Clark's need to at least act normal most of the time because of the things he sees every day. If he were to spend all his time rescuing people and acting like a one-man peace corps, when would he have time for the major disasters and his own sanity?

Uhm . . . Sue? I've never heard that expression . . . is it a good thing, or a bad thing? :p

DS,

And how would Superman know that he isn’t a god? The mythological Hercules seems to wield less power then Superman.

Which is what makes them comic book characters. Superman isn’t so much a masked superhero as a force of nature. Batman is just a human being bringing vigilante justice to his city, that is the limit of his purview. He couldn’t do much to alleviate famine in Ethiopia, but Superman could.

Therefore he should be where he can do the most good.

My impression is that he needs to be Clark to keep contact with his artificial humanity, something Ching saw no value in.

On the time when he is stopping hooligans from spraying graffiti or foiling break ins?


Sue,

Gotten hold on a urban dictionary I see hmm.. right, in what way are we bursting your bubble?

I think the main thing in this is how you view CK/Superman. Is he somewhat of a international resource, or he is more of a person with extraordinary abilities?

Also, if he did become actively involved in fighting hunger and disease in third world countries, how do you think that would affect him? He struggles with getting over disasters where he is unable to save a few. What do you think his reaction would be to viewing all the problems the world's less fortunate have?

Personally, I don't believe his caring heart would be able to stand an ongoing effort like that because he would likely wear himself out mentally trying to do all that he could.

Obviously, Even though it’s not really mine idea. Superman has gone through many facelifts through the years, and in the recent incarnation of the comics third world disasters have gotten more important then the average bank robbery, or so I understand.

That he would grin and bear it. To me that is greatness of the character, someone who lives in his own mind as much as in the physical reality. That was Lois realization in Ultrawoman, the hardest part of being Clark was all the things he couldn’t do, all the people he couldn’t help.
And it explains the importance Clark places on friends and family, with whom he sometimes can unload the world from his shoulders.

I just had a thought . . .

How do we know that Clark/Superman DOESN'T help the peace corps or other organizations having to do with helping third-world countries and such?

I mean, in season 4, we see Clark's two agendas, and the Superman one is pretty full. We know he attends neighborhood watch meetings, and gives all of the proceeds from the sales of Superman merchandise to charity--how do we know some of that isn't for the third world countries?

I think, in a way, that he DOES help famine and such--the Superman Foundation (is that just a fanon concept, or was it ever actually mentioned in L&C? I know he told his agent, Murray, to give all proceeds to charity, but was there ever an episode where the agency ever turned into a full-blown charity/foundation, even in a passing mention?) might provide the actual people to take care of everything, but it is, after all, the SUPERMAN Foundation, which means he could have had the idea to do that in the first place.

Ok, back on topic . . . I really liked all seasons, even season 4, even though it's my least favorite. In fact, from favorite to least favorite, my choice of seasons go 1, 2, 3, 4.

Yeah, me too. I love STGTTWNK. Almost as much as I love Soul Mates.

And I have now seen Lord of the Flies, which was the one and only L&C episode I had still not seen. My life is complete!

I think my New Year's resolution will be never, EVER to post under the influence of NyQuil.

I was in a strange, playful, drug-addled mood when I said that. I was just thinking that it was funny how people were debating the ethical ramifications of Superman helping others when he's just a fantasy. Curiously enough, when I'm sober the fantasy seems much more real.

To go back to the original premise of this topic - while I thoroughly enjoyed random moments in the fourth season, I have to agree with Caroline that the writing was uneven and contrived.

Mostly I just want to know - how the heck was he keeping Lois on the ceiling at the beginning of Brutal Youth? There's a little while there where she's laying on his arm, but that's it. He's not "holding" her there. Is it his magnetism that keeps her floating? Some kind of power transference when they made love? But then, if that's true, why is the blanket just laying there and not falling away? For that matter, why aren't her breasts more "down" than "sideways"? (Yes, make it logistically correct!)

The mind boggles.

Perhaps the fourth season writers were likewise high on cough syrup? (Or I still am...)

DS,
Oh I’m sure he does, it’s just a matter of priority with limited resources, helping starving children in Africa or teaching graffiti spraying hooligans the error of their ways. Decisions, decisions..

Sue, I was thinking it was quite funny how people who can spend months writing about said fantastical character would find it strange to discuss his ethical ramifications. :p
Anyway it’s a hobby of mine.
Despite reading a lot of comics in my youth Superman never really interested me. But I did like the L&C Byrne incarnation where he stopped being the alien robotic God masquerading as a human. Here there is actually a rational behind Clark’s goodness, a psychological vulnerability that counterbalances his powers. an uneasieness even fear about his birthright.
I enjoy fanfics and those episodes that managed to capture this duality. For me it’s a matter of verisimilitude, which to me is a very important criteria for what is good fiction.

That slipped quite a bit in the fourth season but it was always there. The perhaps most popular episode in the fanficdom ,TOGOM, has an A-Plot that gives the worst stuff in S4 a stiff competition.

Oh, I SO deserved that!

I always thought the plot of TOGOM was pretty lame, too (and William Devane as Al Capone still makes me giggle) but I was willing to overlook it since the B plot was deliciously full of promise. I can forgive a multitude of sins in the second season. Just not the fourth.

Slinking back into my hole now...

I think I'm one of the rare people who really enjoyed most of S4. What I like about S4 is that it does show a married Lois and Clark. I know for the majority of viewers it's the thrill of the chase that draws them in. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed that part immensely. Still, S4 was novel in that we watched the protagonists go through the whole relationship process and on into their lives together; they didn't stop actively loving each other even after the vows were over.

SM didn't throw me for a loop like it did some people--possibly because of what preceeded it--but I disliked the premise. We can't believe they were meant to be together unless there was some mystical soul bond beforehand? STGTTWNK--Mike was completely bizarre. It's a fantasy show, yes, but I'd have found it more rational to have Batman suddenly show up to marry them. Thematically speaking, I don't care if they suddenly broke out Wiccan pentagons or if they quoted scripture, it was all totally random for two people who never discussed religion before or after that episode.

What I disliked most about S4 was how, especially near the end, Lois sometimes became a totally different person than the one I thought I knew. While I do believe that marriage changes people, I don't believe it changes us that much. I despise MTP. It embarasses me how much that episode still ticks me off.

That being said, there were some great moments in that season. Lois and Clark on the floor while everyone yells "surprise" still makes me laugh. It may be one of my favourite moments in the whole series, right alongside her slamming the door in his face after the perfect date. I wish I owned it on DVD so I could go watch it right now!

Lol. I put two and two together when I heard you were sick, but I wasn't 100% sure I still cracked up though, mostly because it conjured a couple of old fratty memories, but that's a tale for another day...

Going back to the topic at hand, as someone who recently came back to the show (yes they lost me at the clone arc you can all shoot me now), it's tragic to read fanfic about say, the New Krypton arc being dealt with in a meaningful way and then seeing the real thing. Pretty much a downer, even after having known that from the get go.

Labrat's style of watching a given show for its elements is key for me as well as watching it for the potentials in either the A/B plots.

*is confused*

There is no episode that can be abbreviated MTP. Which episode is it that ticks you off, Capes?

Totally guessing here, but I think Capes was talking about "Stop the Presses", which I've seen some people incorrectly refer to as "Meet the Presses."

Ah! I didn't know that that was a common mis-reference. Thanks, C_A.

I can never remember (and I don't feel like watching it at the moment) . . . which episode was Stop the Presses?

STP was the one where Lois became editor

Oh yeah! Thanks.

That's also the one where They try to wear down and kill Superman in the silo, using that molecular disbandor or something.

I knew "MTP" looked wrong, but I was too lazy to look it up. In my defense, I hate the episode so I avoid it like the plague!

I, unfortunately, remember all the other despicable details far too vividly.

Okay, okay, I no better. Really I do. That’s what I get for having two different thoughts at the same time. I fixed my error. (And, oh, how I hate it when I do things like this. I can’t believe it.)


Thanks. I’ve never seen that site, and I’m going to check it out. I didn’t mean to say I didn’t have all the eps, though. I’ve got every one and then some (multiple copies - VHS and DVD). I’ve been there since the beginning of the series. I still have the VHS tape where the pilot was shown as a Sunday night movie and you got the whole thing in one shot. As far as I know that’s the only time it was shown on TV like that.

I just meant that I don’t think we should be so focused so much on canon because I like new and fresh takes on the stories. I also like it when authors incorporate other Superman canon in their fics. (But, like LabRat, I don’t the characters to become something from one of the other incarnations - no red haired Loises (as in the comics and SR), etc. And really, who could ever see ‘our’ Superman having had a relationship with Lori Lemaris, the mermaid?


Hmm… Wouldn’t that be evident from the story? Of course, if the author thought that was canon, then I can see that as a problem. I suppose it doesn’t hurt to go ahead and call one’s story an alternate reality or elseworlds fic, though.

What’s OTT mean? I tried looking it up online, and I got something called an ott-lite.

Like I said, though, I like new and fresh takes on the stories. But if an author tried to insist that something happened in the series when it didn’t that would probably bug me because it would show me that they knew nothing of the series. But also people can assume they know what a character would do when some of that is a matter of perception.


Exactly. That’s what I meant above. You said it better.


True, but I got blasted for doing something that I absolutely knew our Clark probably would never do, but I did it anyway. (He ‘took’ someone’s memory, but hey it *was* Mayson Drake’s - the snake.) So we shouldn’t assume that the writer doesn’t know.

But, yes, Caroline, I like what you said.

Oh, my gosh, that’s the best description of Soul Mates I’ve ever seen. I love it. You got that SO right.

I also see it as a character development. I liked Season 4!! But then I liked them all, and I mourned and cried when the show went off the air. It was just so unfair. We were promised at least one more year.

I’d have to agree that Sex, Lies, and Videotape was one of my favorites.

Well said, DJ. (And I bet I can guess who you were talking to. ROTFLOL.)

Well said, DJ.

Well, I for one, wasn’t crazy about the bitchy, self-absorbed Lois. And she wasn’t like that in all of S1 either - think about her doing the tush push or whatever with Clark.


If such a being existed in the real world, I’d think he would take action. It’s pretty hard for the writers of and Superman genre to do that, though, because that can’t happen in the real world. That’s why DC comics never really tried to have Superman stop Hitler during WWII. That idea has stood.

Exactly.

Well, I’m not completely sure what that means, Sue, but it made me laugh… Okay, yeah… right. A Nyquil moment.


Yeah, I don’t like Ching, either.

Yes, I can see Clark as being prone to depression. (And that’s coming from a psychiatric nurse.)

It’s his aura, Sue. But I gotta agree. What was keeping her breasts ‘sideways’?

Snort. Rotflol… (I won’t say the obvious…)

But back to the main subject. I like S4 and I thought the money was well spent!

Well, I can't even remember STP. I haven't watched all the eps in my DVD set yet. So I'm off to watch to remind myself. (I may regret it.)

OTT = over the top ?

Oh, I never said I didn't like him. I actually found him quite intriguing. Somewhat arrogant, yes, but overall, I thought he was a good guy--despite the whole kryptonite forcefield thing.

And now that I think about it, maybe Ching's speech about Clark's wimpiness wasn't really his real opinion at all. Maybe it was another test? A test that even Zara didn't know about, because it was possibly a test for her too?

Oooh . . . I'll have to incorporate that into PPKM somehow!

Just for you, I reviewed those couple of minutes. Repeatedly.

Now, her breasts are actually entirely covered by the quilt the entire time. Her legs and face, however, are definitely experiencing "gravitational" pull -- in the wrong direction. His too, for that matter.

So let's think about what it would feel like to Lois if gravity were pulling on her correctly. It would feel like she were about to fall, right? And that's no good. Thus, the "aura effect" must be sufficient not only to keep her and the blanket on the ceiling, but keep 'em there comfortably.

(Yeah, I don't buy it either. Besides, the bed looked comfortable enough, and the ceiling looked cold and hard. And going by the interview Teri Hatcher gave on Rosie shortly before the episode aired, WAS cold and hard! I'd recommend sticking with (or to) the bed.)

Makes almost as much sense as being able to cram electrical circuitry and a capacitor or two into a tiny wedding band, or having the "youthened" show the results immediately, but the "aged" take 2-3 days to show results.

Just repeat to yourself a few times: "It's comic-book physics." The twitching tends to stop eventually.

Hehehe....

Ha ha! I have to second that laugh. And thanks for playing Devil's Advocate for a bit Rivka! I LOVE to do that (and especially with Sue - it's so fun to pick at her... love ya Sue).

-- MR

Sue,

Yes I think that’s why the latter seasons are not as well-liked. The writers had jerked the audience around to much making them less tolerant of new experiments. I'm really glad I wasn't following the series during the arch from hell.

Capes,

Capes, could you develop that? I certainly don’t find MTP despicable. I can see how Lois quick boss transformation was to sudden and the young guys trying to kill Superman was a little over the top(Nothing unusual about that though). But I did like how those guys methodically finds a comic–credible way to kill Superman, without Kryptonite, which is always something worth an applause. The concept that changed work relations affect the relationship work well as a B-plot as well IMO.

Classicalla,

That Lois has a greater dramatic potential, plus people enjoy seeing her being taken down a notch now and then.
And that Lois can enjoy herself square dancing hardly make her less self-absorbed.
S1 Lois can be nice if there is something in it for her and people worships the ground she walks on.

DSD,

Well, Ching’s extreme attitude stemmed from jealousy, he didn’t want Kal-EL to be worthy of his heritage and claim Zara as his wife, since they had romantic feelings for each other.
But his snap shot view from another world seems quite believable.
At a cursory glance it’s easy to interpret Clark refusal to exercise his powers as a fear for responsibility.

Rivka,

Well, that what I thought about refrigators in Sue’s FB thread, but I guess sometimes the idea in itself can have an appeal.

As I recall, that was the same objection that Lois had in the kitchen interlude. How long, exactly? Because the more I think about it the more that bottle of cherry-flavored NyQuil is calling to me...

Sue (who would object to neither the refrigerator nor the ceiling if Clark was propositioning her)

Ohhhh... NyQuil.

Well, as for the start of Brutal Youth, Lois was tired of only Clark breaking the laws of physics and decided she wanted to start breaking them too. It's quite simple, really.

You, and me, and about every other female on this board....

Arawn said:

Just remember you asked for this elaboration And you must know that for me A-plot credibility has always been secondary to the B-plot in the show. I have no real quibbles with the A-plot.

What I hated about STP was precisely the work dynamic. Clark's unprofessionalism in this episode appalls me. I also found it out of character.

I could buy Lois being a little high-handed given the stress of the new job and the desire to appear fair to the staff. Clark was another matter. Clark was always portrayed as someone who admired and respected his partner. He supported her totally. That Clark would have been thrilled at her promotion and done everything he coudl to ease the transition. If he felt she was getting carried away, he'd have talked to her, not ripped her door off the hinges. I just don't buy STP Clark is the same man who said "I'm attached to Lois Lane. I'm not asking for any changes, am I?"

As someone whose "other job" constantly required he skip out without notice, he got upset with her for having to do the same due to her job. He acted jealous (which he had no right to be) and boorish.

The ending was a complete copout. Sure, Clark apologised for being upset, but she also apologised--what did she have to apologise for? Wanting to do the best she could? Also, he never once apologised for his complete failure to support her.

In a professional workplace there are certain codes of conduct that need to be followed. Clark broke all of them and undermined Lois's authority. For the same reason I wince when fanfic stories have Lois being referred to as "Mrs. Kent" in the newsroom, I dislike this perpetuation of the stereotype that says a woman can't have a happy marriage and a position of more power and rank than her husband, that men naturally will resent this difference and seek to sabotage it. And I don't buy that the person doing this is the same Clark Kent I love in the show.

You asked!

I'd like to take this opportunity to point out the Stop the Presses thread at Zoomway's boards. I'd reiterate some of what is said there, but I wouldn't be able to word it as well as it already was--and I'm terrible at summaries anyway.

I will say in response to your remarks, though, Capes, that there are posts referencing Lois and Clark's VERY new marriage, and Clark's insecurities (which we HAVE seen before this episode), etc. There's also my post about why I disagreed that the issues weren't resolved.

And to add to that:

I don't think the episode really did show the "typical" male attitude toward the situation. I think Clark was genuinely happy for Lois, even though he might not have realized just how MUCH went into being the EIC for a major metropolitan newspaper. Both he and Lois had valid points, but neither of them really understood the "new" position the other was coming from at the time. Lois, all of a sudden having to think like an editor, could not have Clark on a story she probably would have wanted to follow up herself--I went into this on the other board--and Clark, who usually thinks like an editor, was probably knocked for a loop because he and Lois usually had more time to find proof before they were taken off of stories.

And even if they weren't, Clark couldn't go against it this time, or the rest of the staff might think that Lois had ok'd it, and think that she was playing favorites. It's a no-win situation.

I read your post and even though I normally don't go to Zoom's boards--I'm more about fanfic than Superman--I checked there as well. Still, after having read it all, I maintain that I would have preferred to see Clark directly reference his behaviour and acknowledge that he did know she was acting as an editor, not as a reporter, so she did what she had to do. I would have liked him to reference as well how he had a greater appreciation for what it was like for Lois to live with Superman--that never was settled IMO.

Despite the new marriage, I guess I can't help but see Clark's whole unprofessional dynamic in this episode as something bizarre. I understood his showing his frustration at home slightly more, but I think that two professionals like Lois and Clark would behave accordingly no matter their personal feelings of the moment while at work. Being upset with Lois and protesting is one thing. Ripping doors off hinges is another.

Had the editors of the episode done those things, I might have liked it. I do think Clark has a human and selfish side to him. I just don't know if this is the way I see him showing it. The way The Gorn wrote it, I bought. The way the series writers wrote it, I didn't.

Well, considering that there was a slew of unprofessional behavior (i.e. parties and kissing on the job, etc.) throughout the series, I didn't really see anything different about the unprofessionalism in this episode (although, there was a greater degree of it).

Maybe i am missing something but i think season four was great. I really love the fact that lois and clark are so in love. Clark now has someone that he can share all his secrets with and who can support him no matter what. Lois has found the man of her dreams in clark who accepts lois for who she is and doesnt try to change her. Dean and Terri really had great chemistry together. I really wish there had been a season five. It would have been great to see them have children. They would have made great parents.

Well, I’m just now coming back to this thread, but yeah, this was somewhat out of character for Clark. But it was also very realistic because we all ‘fly off the handle’ sometimes and do things that are totally out of character and that surprises those around us.

We don’t like to see our own faults (or problems) in others. I’d say that’s why Clark flipped out over it.

And like Darcy said, Clark was still dealing with insecurities.

I rather thought that they both did not act their best in that episode. I think Darcy said it well:

And I thought she was a tad bit hard on Clark. She wasn’t treating him as she would have other employees.

But like Darcy said, it was a no-win situation.


What was the name of the Gorn’s story?

I finished watching S4 this weekend and I still like it. In fact, I think it may be my favorite season. The only ep I really didn't like was Toy Story. I laughed so hard at IGYUMS. You could tell Dean was really having fun with that.