Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related UK versus US English: Smackdown 2004

It's complicated, Vicki. <G> But, short summary version - originally, lawyers in the UK were separated into two distinct professions - barristers and solicitors. This was the result of an agreement made centuries back, which divided the work either was entitled to do. Solicitors, for example, did most of the paperwork, allowing barristers to concentrate more on court work.

These days, lawyer is less likely to be used. Most legal firms call themselves solicitors, and there's been a raft of legislation, proposals, accomodations over the centuries aimed at merging the two branches into one. It hasn't quite happened yet, but lawyer as a term is becoming more and more colloquial as time passes. Most members of the general public will talk about "Seeing my lawyer" or "Getting a lawyer". But they mean solicitor and the professionals generally don't call themselves lawyers at all for day to day purposes, although they won't insist no one else does and there are still the odd formal and professional occasions where the term is appropriate. <g>

Edit - after a quick search of the net, I came up with this . It's a bit longwinded, but if you're looking for more detail, you can't fault it for containing that. <G>

LabRat

Vicki, the rule for a/an, in UK as in US English, is pronunciation. If you say "you-neekly", then it's preceded by "a"; if anyone says "oo-neekly" then they should use "an".

By the same token, only people who say "'istorical" (and some educated speakers do) ought to talk about "an historical fact".

Going back to prepositions at the ends of sentences - that's one of those "rules" that was made up by the crazy Latin-loving Victorians with nothing better to do. People have always, before and since, separated prepositions from their objects. But, as a rule of thumb, either say "by whom" or "who... by" - using the formal "whom" with the less formal trailing preposition will get you funny looks anywhere in the English-speaking world.

The idea of a solicitor coming to the door (to force you to write your will, or what?) still tickles me pink.

Mere

I could say a lot here since one part of a lecture that I gave to my students was about regional differences in language and how they come about (pronounced a-boot) here in Canada but I'd like to spend my time addressing the "lawyer" issue.

My husband was called to the bar many, many years ago and he had to say two oaths--one as a barrister and the other as a solicitor. Yet, when asked what he does for a living, he says that he's a lawyer. My cousin in New York,on the other hand, when asked, says he's an attorney.

My husband's letter head identifies him as a Barrister and Solicitor. My cousin's identifies him as an Attorney-at-law.

As far as the "who/whom" issue is concerned, I'd like to say that what has happened is that the grammatically correct has been overshadowed by what sounds better. This isn't regional. I think it has more to do with the difference between writing and speaking, and in writing the purpose of the particular piece.

And when I go to the theatre, I favour good behaviour from the audience members. :rolleyes:

gerry (who's going back to lurking)

I just found a good one - it surprised me, actually. US English "4 feet x 8 feet" versus UK English "4 foot x 8 foot".

Mere

I am not religious, but I found this:

It was from someone's sermon. Like you said below so I won't go into that difference any more.
Gift is from middle English, from Old Norse. Related to ghabh from Indo-European Roots. Ghabh means to give or to recieve. Yet another text reference is to grab or to take! Also, suffixed form ghebh ti means something given or received. Gift, from Old Norse gipt, gift, a gift, from Germanic giftiz. Cool.

Present is from middle English presenten and from Old French presenter and from Latin presentre, to show, from praesns, praesent- present participle of praeesse, to be in front of. Now that's a mouth full.

From - http://westegg.com/etymology/

I just thought that was neat.

Gift [...] a general English term for a present or thing bestowed [...]
Present Also another substantive meaning a gift, and a verb meaning to bring into the presence of, to offer, to deliver. [...] The sense of gift is due to the 0. Fr. phrase mettre en present a quelquun, to bring something into the presence of a person, to offer, give.

With that said, I honestly don't know what that teacher meant, use gift for this and present for that. I wish I could remember. I looked it up in some texts and on-line, but alas I have come up empty handed!

Though gift, of couse, sounds better in some circumstances and present for others. A gift, to me, sounds more formal and present more cutsie.

I guess you go with your preference! Man, now I babbeled and have a headache. Where's my Tim Horton's ice cap (I just learned to like 'em yesterday.)

Whilst - My family used it and my Mum did use it in her essays while attending the same university as me at the same time. Yet, I had marks taken off for using it and she did not!

The phrase 'compare and contrast'. I find people use that here. To me from my UK orgins find that redundant!!! You only need the word compare. Comparing two things is to note their similarities and their differences - is it not? I get blank stares when I bring that up. Please tell me if I am wrong!

Also, another thing that always gets to me. I looked it up so I don't have to get a headache.

I find here they use it interchangeably. But over yonder they don't. Unless the group, where I have used that word is .

I found this for the whole got/gotten discussion:
This may not be entirly related, but it does come up in my mind when we are taking about words usage differences.
That has always poked at my brain. I am an American, if you go with North American. But I cringe b/c I know that means, for many, that you are from the US. And I am not, I am Canadian and North American. No offence, but up here we try really hard to seperate ourselves from the 'Americans' below us.

Oh my goodness. I am doing it again. Babbeling and of course devieating into antoher tangent!!!! I am so posting this and running away, errors and all. I am just talking too much.

This whole lawyer/solicitor thing is interesting.

First, I'm LOL over Mere's comment:
That is a very funny visual. Here, the word solicitor firmly calls to mind for me an unwanted sales person. So often stores and homes will put stickers on their doors stating "No soliciters allowed."

As for lawyer versus attorney, this might just be me, but for some reason lawyer sounds...smarmier than attorney. My brother is an attorney, and I usually state it that way - My brother is an attorney - because to say that he's a lawyer always invites images of ambulance-chasing sleaze bags. For some completely illogical and inexplicable reason, IMO attorney sounds less so. I know, silly.

I do like the word "barrister" but because it is so close to the word "bannister" I always do a double take when I see it. Your brother is a bannister? Ohhh...a barrister! LOL!

This is a wonderful conversation. Thanks to all of you for picking it up and running with it...

Lynn

That is true. There really is no other word. North American does not refer specifically to a citizen of the United States of America, but rather a resident of the continent of North America (thus, including Canadians and Mexicans).

Here in Puerto Rico, people call Americans "estadounidenses", the closest thing in English being "United Staters". I don't know why, but I hate being called that. I always tell people that they might as well call the citizens of the United States of Mexico "United Staters", too. Or citizens of the Republic of Haiti "Republicans"! But, realistically, I guess I can understand the use of the term, given we often abreviate our country's name from The United States of America to simply The United States.

Anyway, the name for our country (and its citizens) was decided upon back when the United States of America was the *only* country in the Americas, so, in a way, it is a totally reasonable name. I guess when our forefathers decided on the name they weren't anticipating all the future countries to be formed on the American continents.

- Vicki

Hey, maybe you and we should rename our countries to something less generic. <g> I mean, the United Kingdom is just about as meaningless these days as the United States of America - more meaningless, in fact, because we don't even have a country name anywhere in there. Yes, we're also Britain, which is better, but someone will shortly tell me why the UK and Britain aren't actually the same thing .

Any suggestions for new country names? The Islands To The Left Of Continental Europe? ('Tittloce' for short - pronounced tit-lo-chay, of course <g>)

Yvonne

Oh, I dunno. Kind of happy with Scotland. That's an idea. Why don't we just name the whole island, Scotland. <g> Oh, and that bit off the coast, too.

LabRat

ROFL, Rat!


Wendy

Just de-lurking (new job, fun but no free time, sorry ) to stick my oars in...

First, quaint. I grew up in Stratford-upon-Avon. Yes, that's right, half-timbered houses, roses round the door, cream teas and china cups. I don't like quaint. Particularly first thing on a Monday morning, when I'm in my school uniform. It's not quaint, it's cold, made of very nasty man-made fibres, which generate more static electricity than a small nuclear plant, and my skirt rides up as I walk. Yes, ok, the town looks lovely, it's old, and it has a fantastic theatre. But you try pushing past the hordes (none of whom are talking with local accents) to catch your bus, knowing that 'I was almost assulted by a French school teacher who thought I was one of her pupils trying to escape a head count' is not a valid excuse for being late... It's not quaint.

Sorry, I regressed a little there.

Second, public vs private schools... the difference over here is, I think, that originally way back when education wasn't compulsary, public schools where ones that anyone could go to (although you might have to pay) and private ones were restricted entry. Something like that anyway. State schools are our equivalent of US public schools.

Third, if I understand it right, you are saying that when a US film sticks in a British character and they say 'quite good' to praise something, that's taken to mean that they really liked it? From my perspective, the joke was that we Brits are uptight and never really truely express our emotions and the best praise we can give to something is 'quite good' meaning ok. Wow, amazing how your perspective can shift.

Fourth, I've just edited this post because Wendy explained it a lot clearer and shorter than I did! But just to add a little fact for today, they only came up with the name Britain for the island after unification with Scotland. Up until then no one had needed to call it anything.

Helga

You guys are loads of fun!

Roo From The Great White North. That's enuf for me.

Personally, I have a hard time getting used to saying "Great Britain" or "United Kingdom". Over here, we simply use "Anglia" (=England) in our everyday conversations. The other names are for more formal use.

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

Yvonne

Used to be sterotypically CDN - Ginned up instead of pissed. It is more of a Prairie thing.

CDN - go on a holiday AMR - go on a vacation.
hydro - electricity
hoser - idiot
grad - prom
Molson muscle - beer belly
runners - tennis shoes/sneakers
write an exam - take an exam

Question: In the U.K. does 'quite' always mean only a little bit, or only when you use it in the phrase 'quite good'? For example, I read a fanfic awhile ago where Clark told Lois she was 'quite safe'. I understood that to mean 'very safe' or 'completely safe', but that was before I read all this about 'quite good' meaning only so-so. So, did Clark mean Lois was 'relatively safe' or what?

- Vicki

Argh!!! There is England, there is Scotland, there is Northern Ireland, and there is Wales. England is neither Britain nor the UK. It is England, plain and simple.

Sorry, Anna! Your statement was like a red rag to a bull and I'm sure I just over-reacted terribly, but it's a sensitive issue with those of us who aren't English.

Yvonne

Oh, wow! You go to sleep for the day, wake up, and find a whole extra page to the thread! Impressive.

Anyway, I don't have much to add this time, but I wanted to address Labby's post at the top of this thread.

I'm sorry I didn't express myself more clearly, Lab. It's a case of poor word choice on my part, I guess. What I meant by "unresolved" is that I'm still not entirely certain that it's a US/UK difference. So, I was asking here what people thought of them.

As you say, the meanings are clear in context. I didn't mean to imply that they needed changing. I copied them here because they were recent examples with context of (aparantly) UK phrases that seemed odd to my US reader's eyes.

Sorry for the confusion and the poor phrasing.

Paul

No problem, Paul! No, I didn't think you were implying they needed changing - was just saying I didn't think they did. <g>

And certainly no need to apologise. I see what you mean now by unresolved. I'm not sure the first one 'nature's spectaculars' is so much a UK/US difference as a US/LabRat difference. It was just the way it came out on the page at the time. It's not a phrase that I've particularly heard being banded around or that even I use. Nature's splendors, maybe? That might be more commonly UK.

The second one might be more Scottish or Glaswegian phrasing than UK per se. It is a common way to phrase it, but I can only speak for my own neck of the woods. Whether it's phrased that way in England or Wales, or parts of either and not in others...is anyone's guess really.


LabRat

Vicki said
And Mere said
I know it's already been explained, but I wanted to add that I'm pretty sure that solicitor has rarely ever been used in the US to denote a lawyer/attorney. Over here, it pretty much means "unwanted salesman." And Lynn said that people put signs up that say "no solicitors"-- that's also true of businesses and the entrances to subdivisions. Nobody wants someone going door to door "soliciting" business.

(... Now that I think about it, based on Lynn's description of "lawyer", I guess they chase ambulances to solicit business.) I, too, have always thought that "attorney" sounds better. About the only place I ever see the word "barrister" outside of the UK is when we refer to "barrister bookcases"-- which, of course, are those glass-fronted bookcases attorneys use!

Here's one that's totally incorrect, but pretty common over here-- adults and children use it--
Instead of "another whole" something or other, lots of people split the word "another" and say "a whole nother" which always cracks me up. I bet that's not said in the UK?

And you guys have been saying that you might "go round to" someone's house, or that there are roses "round the door"-- we'd say "around the door" and "go around to" (althought that latter isn't used much here, I think). I hear "go round" more as a description of another "round" of whatever-- a fight, another try at something: lets have another "go round".

~Toc