Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Lois & Clark Fanfic FDK: Whisper from the Dying, 2/?

Whoo boy, do I feel like devil's advocate here or what? I swear I'm not trying to be though! Honest.

Dundan - all your points sound valid to me in their own context (at least to my foggy brain at 3 am ), but what you mention above doesn't, in *my* opinion, fit with the story. You say "after the grieving process." In the story, there hasn't *been* any time to grieve "properly." There's only that instantaneous (I'll be amazed if I spelled that right at this hour ) wham of pain and that first stage of denial - this didn't really happen, it couldn't have happened, but somewhere deep down, I know it did, but I don't want to think right now. About anything. And you feel sort of suspended in a place that's not quite reality. That's how I see it. And that's where I think Lois and Clark both were.

And I'm going to stop now. For one, I'm afraid that I really have rambled this time, and for two, Jose's going to see this and know I didn't make it to bed yet. I'm going now, I swear! :p

Sara (who's really starting to wonder about her choice in words - *devil's* advocate - and what that says about the authors )

Sara, you're right The first paragraph was dealing mainly with a general context not based on the outline of the story, from beginning to its spin. So I suppose we're both right in that regard. lol

(Dundan, who kicks Sara back to bed )

I was mainly referring to Wendy's earlier statement/s.

*You must sleep*

Any body got asprin? And some rum?

Before this gets into too much of a debate, let's remember one thing.

This is a fiction story.

Wendy, and Kae, as the writers control the actions of the characters in their story. They apparently believe that, under the conditions they created, Lois and Clark could use sex as a comfort tool. I don't.

But it's not my story. They invite our opinions with these comment threads, but the bottom line is that it's still their interpetation of events that is being portrayed. You must take the story as it's delievered and base your enjoyment on how well you can 'get into' what's happening.

No one doubts the talent of the two young women, but ultimately each gentle reader will take from the story what they will.

Tank (who knows he has certain 'prejudices' when it comes to Lois and Clark that don't always jibe with what others think... and that's fine too)

Interesting controversy over whether or not L & S would have sex as a response to Clark's death - very parallel to the debate among readers when ML Thompson posted her TOGoM fic, Second Stage of Grief, in which Lois has sex as a response to Clark's death.

Also all of what Tank said <g>

But ... gotta say, people -- death as a sexual turn-on???

cc m

Interesting discussion. I think many good points have been made on both sides of the argument, but I just wondered this - if we throw Clark's virginity into the mix, does that change the dynamics of the situation at all?

Yvonne

Wendy and Kae...wow! I love it! But since everyone has already said everything I got nothing to add but...Wow! I love it.

TEEEEEEEEEEEEEEJ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Quel Lane:
<strong> OH MY GOD!!!!! Hurry up with the next part, please

Well, I'm as guilty as ever of not having time to read the story, but finding myself in the comments folder out of sheer curiosity. Hey, it's the only fanfic pleasure I mostly get these days.

Just wanted to say that I've found the debate on this one fascinating. And especially wanted to give you kudos, Dundan, for not letting being a newbie get in the way of your posting your opinion. Quite right too! Keep it up. Your pov is as valid as anyone else's and not restricted by how long you've been hanging out here. I've certainly enjoyed your friendly, intelligent and good-natured contributions to the debate.

LabRat

Just dropping in again to say ditto LabRat - fascinating debate, and I should have said before, Dundan - welcome.

As Tank said, it's fiction. Sure, there's a question of whether the reactions of the characters here are believable or not in the circumstances, and that's got to be down to individual readers. Some believe it could happen; others don't. No-one's right or wrong here. I encounter scenarios in fanfic sometimes which I don't really feel are credible, but others do - YMMV.

As you say, Dundan, in the episode Lois soldiered on; she turned up at the Planet the next day, griefstricken but determined to do her job. But we're posing a different scenario: what if Clark's 'death' was even more traumatic as a result of his confession of love, and what if Clark was with her as Superman, even more devastated than he was in the series because he was seeing her grief too? Sure, you still might not be able to accept this outcome, but we believe that it's one logical possibility.

Carol, yes, Kae and I were just saying last night (well, this morning for her ) that this is similar to the discussion on an early part of Second Stage of Grief. I think the credibility issue is somewhat similar here too. Incidentally, Carol, I don't think we were trying to imply that it was a turn-on, as you put it - if it came across that way, we'll have to look again at the scene. What happened was, as we see it, two people turning to each other to share uncontrollable grief. There was no conscious thought there. Lois desperately needed to feel close to someone; I think someone suggested that there might even have been some element of subconscious awareness that she was with Clark. Well, she did think that Superman was even sounding like Clark at that point. No, that's not a clue about what might be coming up! It's just an observation about something else which might have affected her impulses. Not her thought processes - let's face it: she wasn't thinking.

Thanks so much for being so enthusiastic in this debate. If anyone really can't accept this development, then we'll perfectly understand if you don't want to read on - we won't be offended. For those who can, we'll look forward to seeing you in the next comment folder.


Wendy

Er... Excuse me to stop by in the middle of this debate and send some quick feedback on this.

First off, I am really enjoying it. The scenario here is totally original and not out of character.

I am really amazed that people think that this cant work. It works so well, that the girls are posting it and people are here debating and sending their feedback. If it wasn't working, the readers would simply do not stop by and waste their time sending their FDK.

I am also confused when people say Lois and Clark should behave like this and that. Guys, you want something original or you want it to be predictable and waffy all the time? The way it is now, it seems that no matter how much we work on our plots, the stories "have" to be the way readers want and predict. Let's not forget that even if the story looks weird to our opinions, writers are free to play with the characters as they please and for the reader there's only the choice to follow the story or not.

Personally, I think I prefer reading the original plots nowadays than the predictable ones. After ten years of show... although we just love them, they tend to get boring.


MDL. (who's really going to hide now and hope she made some sense out her speech despite her miserable English.)

MDL wrote: No, I don't think any of us who expressed concern about L&C acting "out of character" - in our opinions - want everything to always be predictable and waffy. And I think that the writers in our fandom - most certainly Wendy and Kae included - are proof that it doesn't have to be. Yesterday Lynn posted her latest installment of Haunting Eden that has everyone pulling out their hair - has there been a waffy moment in the entire fic thus far? - and it's as original as all get out. And Nan has just posted Part 24 of Twins and thrown yet another totally unexpected plot twist at us (at least, I didn't expect it). That's two examples within the past 24 hours...there are hundreds more.

But you can be original and stay "in character". And it's the "in character" that can sometimes be a gray area, because it's so personal for everyone. If I give the extreme example of a Clark Kent who starts dropping people off the tops of tall buildings, I think everyone would agree that this is "out of character". Of course, with the proper motivation and in the hands of a gifted author, it could be done.

Then you have examples that aren't so extreme. Is it OOC for L&C to sleep together before marriage? They didn't on the show, but in a story if the circumstances were right...some people believe very strongly on each side, and in a case like this it's much harder to argue for what is a "definitive" answer, if there is one at all.

Speaking just for myself, I always have a hard time with the issue of Clark sleeping with Lois as "Superman" before telling her the truth. And especially under these circumstances... I know that he *wasn't* thinking and was nearly numb with grief, but somehow - perhaps unfairly - I hold him up to that higher standard that he would have resisted. Like Toc, I could picture both of them going *part* (maybe almost all) of the way, but somehow stopping in time...

Absolutely. The story belongs to the author(s), and they have the final word.

But I think that most authors post WIPs on the mbs to get comments from the readers as to what people like or what maybe doesn't work as well, otherwise they'd just wait until it was finished and publish on the Archive. It doesn't mean that an author is going to automatically change *everything* that a reader questions - certainly not! The author may decide that something does need to be clarified/changed, or that it's just fine as it is. We're just adding another opinion that the author can consider, if he/she chooses to.

Well, like Sara before me, I think I've taken up too much space in this folder, so I'd better scoot...

Kathy

Thanks for the encouragement, lol. No, I actually felt a little bad about posting since I felt like I was slowly chiseling away at Hoover Dam. I know this is fiction but someone once said we are stewards of popular culture and I agree with that (a comic book editor). I was just giving my own hopefully, well taken criticism on the situation.

I would like to offer a different spin however, death is a major turn-off. That would lead to an instant betrayal in my view, and well I've said enough about that. I'm certainly not trying to Stop the Presses here, as everyone is entitled to their own interpretation.

Again, thank you, and I hope I helped.

I have a different approach to writing, which may be more boring, but I am looking forward with err, dread to the next installment.

(Wow, no flame wars! Hurray!!)

Am wondering if 'totally orginal' is really the right phrase here, MDL, given that the scenario arises out of TOGoM and also that ML's Second Stage of Grief dealt with Lois using sex as a way of dealing with Clark's death in TOGOM. (Sorry to repeat this point but I do think it's important to acknowledge the earlier story)

In fact, it's really very difficult, imo, to write a fic that is totally orginal yet doesn't have either CK/S or Lois acting out of character or contradict key bits of canon.

This is not to say, though, that Wendy and Kae's writing is not good stuff:) and that sex with Superman in these circumstances is not an interesting premise. And who knows what will happen next.

cc m

Frankly, I expected them to start and then stop. Repairing the relationship from this point will be harder to do, but OTOH, that makes the story more interesting.
So start posting as fast as you can!!!!!

Artemis

Kaethel and Wendy

WOW! I've just read this and there're already 34 responses.

Tricia

Bump.

(Sorry, bad joke )

Sex is primal, basic, I thought that on that level at least, these two "soul mates" would know each other. Lois is out of her mind with grief? I think she would have to be comatose not to know at this point Clark and Superman are one and the same.
Should she harm anyone though, insanity could be a good defence.

This will be a short post as I'm not home and am using a French keyboard (something I haven't done in weeks ), but I just wanted to step in on behalf of both of us to reassure those who seemed to express concern, that Wendy and I are absolutely delighted with the debate, and very admirative that everyone is expressing their views in a very coherent and polite manner.

Now, we knew right from the start that this premise would be controversial, and so we were prepared for this debate of course. You all make excellent points, and raise an interesting question: would Lois and Clark's grief lead them to lose control and comfort each other by being intimate?

Well, as Carol pointed out, we're not pioneers there: ML already explored Lois's side of the issue with her excellent Second Stage of Grief, which I strongly recommend. Our motivation was to explore Clark's side of the issue as well: Clark's "death" hit him just as hard as it did Lois. The format of the show (45 minutes only) didn't allow the writers to fully develop his side of things, I think. When Barrow shot him, Clark lost his life. He had always been Clark Kent before being Superman, and being Superman only was no life to him. What would happen the first time he had a bad rescue and needed support or reassurance? As Superman, could he turn to Lois? He would have no escape in any kind of "normal" life. I don't want to develop this further here as it's something we're dealing with later in the story, and I don't want to spoil it. But my point is, Barrow stole Clark's life; he *killed* him, if not physically, then at least emotionally. And Clark's loneliness that night was just as big as Lois's. Whether that would lead them to seek comfort in each other is another can of worms, and as we saw in this thread, open to each individual's interpretation of the characters.

Wendy and I both believe that this situation is one that could lead them to where they are now in our story; some of you agree with us, while some others don't think Superman would break his ethics and sleep with Lois under the circumstances. As Kathy said so eloquently, we have the same kind of split in interpretation between those who don't think Lois and Clark would be intimate before marriage, and those who never understood why they waited (and you can guess what my opinion is ).

Anyway, just my .02... did I say I'd keep this short?

Kaethel

Apologies for the late FDK.

I didn't think this would end well. <g>

I think, like I told you already, that Clark would feel even worse if she wasn't cold toward him - if she acted as if she were in love with Superman. At least now he knows that she loved Clark, and not his two dimensional creation.

Sorry if this was mentioned - I didn't read the rest of the folder - but I think you meant "given HIS life for her."

Aww, I just want to cry. Poor Lois.

Great part, EvilSquad, but we're ready got more now.

Julie