Yay! I get to start the comments!

Loved this, you two.

And I gotta say...hmm...curiouser and curiouser. I'm certainly glad Kae said there'd be a happy ending -- right now those two are both in so much pain, though, that they can't see it. I still have hope, though!

Lois's reaction to their...whatever term you want to use, was interesting. I mean, on the one hand, I'd have expected a ballistic rant. Her almost emotionless tone is, in a way, more frightening. She's grieving, but at the same time, there's a part of the reality that hasn't hit yet. Not intellectual denial, but that bit of emotional subconscious that just shrouds itself because it literally can't handle the full onslaught. I shudder to think what will happen when the shroud is forced away and she finally lets herself cry. Poor Lois.

Not that I blame Clark. After all, in his mind, he's dead. Clark-him, at least. And I can even agree to his logic somewhat (that it would only hurt her more to tell her he's Clark, but oh, btw, he's got to play dead now) -- from an objective bystander pov. It will be fascinating to see Lois's reaction when she finds out, though!

Bravo and I'm ready for more!

Bethy

Um... you forgot the spandex boundary... and it's not just physical!

Eek!!! This *cannot* be good!!!

I want to say something here, but the only thing that comes to mind is

Awwww!!

Oh geez!! Bad to worse! You'd better have the next part up pronto ladies!!!

Sara (who really shouldn't have gone on so long because now I'll be late for class ;P)

Well, so much for hoping Clark would tell Lois the truth, Lois would kiss Clark like crazy upon learning he was alive, and everyone would live happily ever after!

Yeah, I guess I knew all along there was angst ahead. What a mess.

Sara already pointed it out, but I liked this, too: Oh, Lois, if you only knew!

And, I second the nomination for Understatment of the Year. OH, WELL!?!?!?!?

I cannot wait to see what you two do with this!

- Vicki

"Why had she done it?"

She wouldn't have. And neither would he.

I've never been able to buy into the 'Boo hoo, our best friend has just been killed, let's have sex' scenario. Comforting each other in a time of mutual grief (and Clark is grieving here also) is one thing, but this is over the top and out of character for these two.

They each have a strong sense of right and wrong, and no matter how much they may have been hurting, or how much they may have been drawn to each other, neither would have taken advantage of such a situation. It's not in their character.

Tank (who says... that's just his opinion)

Hi,

Great part.

NOW I have a MIGRAINE!

OH MY GOD!!!!! Hurry up with the next part, please

Raquel (who should be in bed right now but she couldn't go to bed before reading the part and then writing some feedback )

Wow. Well, I must say that I'm with Tank here. I can't believe that this would have happened. There are a few scenarios under which I can see Superman making love to Lois without first revealing himself as Clark, but here, no matter how much he's hurting and mourning the loss of the life that he loved and is in despair over what will happen now, I just can't believe that he would do this without telling her. Especially given that he now knows that she loves Clark. This goes beyond lunkheadedness.

And given that I think almost every Wendy fic that's post-TOGOM and has a revelation in it has at least a passing reference to Lois' feelings when she realizes that Clark let her believe he was dead when he could have told her the truth right away...things will be sooooo much worse now when she learns the truth. No matter what mental anguish he's in, I can't see how he'll be able to justify it, and how she'll be able to forgive him.

Obviously if he had told her about his alter ego tonight, you ladies wouldn't have a story. So I'm certainly willing to go along for the ride and see how you can possibly have Clark extricate himself from this mess...

Kathy

Ditto, Clark is being a Lunkhead. Also since he is Clark, why doesn't Lois instinctivly feel more for her lover then funeral sex? Can't she tell that he is Clark in her soul if not in her head? Laura

I know I probably already surpassed my space limit as far as this folder goes , but I had to pop back in to say that I disagree with Tank and Kathy. Now, I in no way agree with Lois and Clark's decision, but that's just the point, I don't think it *was* a decision at that moment. From what I always believed, and what I gathered from the context of the story, Lois and Clark are both extremely emotional and *not* thinking. Clark is grieving for (what he thinks is :rolleyes: ) the loss of his life and everything he's known, and, most importantly, including any chance he ever had with Lois. Lois, for her part, has lost her best friend in the worst way imaginable - shot down right in front her, because he was protecting her. So, not only is she feeling guilt, but extreme grief as well. That brings us to Lois's apartment: Lois is clinging to someone whom she considers a friend, someone she knows is feeling the same grief she is, and someone who just happens to remind her (however subconsciously it may be) so much of the man she just realized she loved, the man who she believes is dead. Clark... well, I already yelled at Clark , but I really don't think he was fully aware of what he was doing. That, mixed with the desperate feeling that he'll *never* have Lois now that he's "dead," seriously clouded his judgement and his mind.

OTOH, I do have to agree with Laura:

But, that may just be beacase I'm a hopeless romantic. )

Well I wasn't going to say this, since I'm new on these boards, but I have to agree 100% with Tank on this.

And KathyM too. Although I don't believe Superman would have ever had casual sex with Lois, or anyone for that matter, especially as he was her friend and confidante in real life.

Not to mention Lois' part. I have to go with my earlier comment in part one about that kiss.

I agree that the take here on these two has gone completely out of character.

Usually, anyone who loses someone they love, in particular, becomes less likely to be involved in spurious relationships, becomes despondent out of grief, holds on to the memories of the other person as if they were still alive, and holds on to the memories for a long time.

The love triangle in this case is only valid in Lois' case. There are two individuals, as far as she is concerned, Clark and Superman.

Lois "loves" Superman, although he is merely an escape for her, the image of the perfect man, Superman gives mixed signals about Lois, because he is really Clark, and Clark loves Lois.

After Lois realizes she truly loves Clark, the situation becomes a less confusing. more focused, more filled with angst. The S1 finale is a perfect example of that, and the "love triangle" resolution.

To have Lois Lane, sleep with Superman after the death of Clark, her best friend, whom she loved/loves, while not even being through a grieving process is unexplainable.

This has been a terrific TOGOM angle, before the kiss, which I suspect was an intention from the start, but you can only invent new scenarios in which character can be simulated, not invent character actions that ultimately become uncharacteristic, and hope to explain those by circumstances.

It just can't be done. Phew, sorry for the extra long paragraphs.

seems believable and in character to me.

more!!!

I was believable.

I can believe it too.

What I *can't* believe is them breaking up afterwards. Nooooooo! He has too tell her! Or at the very least, she should decide she loves Superman too! ARGH!

I guess I just don't have the stomach for high-angst.

I'm pretty much with Tank and Kathy, here-- not only is this a HUGE helping of angst, but it seems kind of extreme for both of them. Going only part of the way, only to realize (with horror) what they are doing, and stopping, would be easier for me to believe. Unless somehow, someway, subconsiously, buried way too deep for her to tumble to it at all, Lois does know he's Clark. Since this sort of thing-- losing your soulmate, who is really both A and B but has been killed as A and you don't recognize him as B ( phew! ) is unlikely to happen in real life, I just can't get a handle on this at all. I can't put myself in either Lois or Clark's place so I just don't know how the situation would play out. Maybe the scenario here is exactly what would happen.

I'm not saying I didn't like it, because this is very gripping and emotional, and riveting too. But how on earth can this be fixed??

On the other hand-- I can see that Clark is just totally not functioning at all normally-- his "death" has hit him EXTREMELY hard because he's being forced to give up everything he holds dear in his present life: his home, job, friends, and most importantly, Lois. He can't see ANY way to resolve this, can he? Hence his utter conviction that he can't tell Lois the truth. And maybe his inability to stop what happened?

And Lois? Like Bethy, I think her emotionlessness is scary. She's not functioning normally, either. She's burdened with a double load of guilt, now-- her belief that she led them into danger in the first place, and now her guilt for "betraying" Clark. I just don't see her "snapping back" from this, into even a tiny bit of the Lois she's been since she met Clark. She'll be driven to hunt down the gangsters and whoever is responsible for bringing them back, but after she's done that, avenged his death, then what?? Perry aside, she has no support left. What incentive is there, at all, to keep functioning?

You two must have this story plotted out fairly concretely, so you must have a way to resolve this. To keep Lois sane, keep her from killing Clark for real once she finds out, and find a way for them to work this out so that there is no lingering hurt or resentment.

The logical question, then, is when are WE going to find out how they resolve this? Really soon, right??

~Toc

Just a quick observation... Actually, Kae and I agree with those of you who say that both Lois and Superman acted out of character in this instalment. Of course they did. Lois is grieving for the loss of her best friend and the man she loved, whom she saw gunned down in front of her in horrific, terrifying circumstances - the stuff of nightmares. Clark has just had almost the worst thing possible happen to him. No, he's not dead, but the life he's known all his life is over just the same. So neither of them is in their right minds.

And when we're in a state of extreme shock, when we've been through trauma, when we're desperately trying to pretend that the worst hasn't happened while at the same time wondering how on earth we're going to go on, we do crazy things. Irrational things. Things we would never dream of doing when in our right minds. Things which are completely out of character for us... because at times like this the last thing we do is act in character, as if nothing out of the ordinary had happened.

The bereaved mother who suddenly shoplifts. The woman whose baby died who kidnaps someone else's baby. The grieving widow who sleeps with a friend simply because he's there and she needs someone to hold her and chase away the loneliness - all things the person would never dream of doing under normal circumstances.

Both Lois and Superman are grieving right now, for the loss of a relationship that can never be the way they want it to be. Both are feeling painfully alone and need the comfort that the other can offer.

No, neither Lois nor Superman has made a conscious decision to make love. Neither was, at that moment, really aware of what they're doing. And, yes, one thing everyone's right about is that the aftermath won't be nice.


Wendy

Wendy, I agree with your post. They weren't acting in character here. I can even understand Clark not telling her afterwards as he doesn't want a relationship as Superman.

Now....how are you going to get them to talk to each other again. They left it as....big mistake...over...never again...

Okay, I can think of ONE scenerio that will cause the lines of communication to open again.

Can't wait to see if I'm right....

Can't wait for more

Ohh!

I think this is going to be *long*

Jose (who agrees with Wendy and Kae)

Well, I just wanted to add, in respect to situations involving trauma and such, such cases as described are rare, and most importantly after the grieving process has not adequately given the person enough closure - usually persons who engage in such acts also have other instability in their lives, which isn't a case for either Lois or Clark.

Which means they would each be entitled to a normal grieving process.

They both have outlets in doing so, as well. So it means that they can and would follow a normal grieving process, no matter how difficult. (Lois has Perry White, the rest of the Planet, Clark has his parents.)

As well, there are other hormones involved in such *extreme* cases, like the mother stealing a child - (I feel like a psych major).
There is also an emotional level above that as well. There is also basis to predict whether or not a person will act out in such manners.

Such as, not having the ability to have babies over a long term which might lead to mental instability, and emotional undevelopment due to natural conditions, neither which Lois and Clark exhibit.

A person's actions always flow out of their established traits, which is why we can't always compare the actions of people.

What I'm saying is, what might seem out of character vs out-of character as character is usually rooted in periods of extreme change or instability, and unmet emotional needs that the person may, or may not act upon - I think that is also the question in dealing with Lois and Clark/Superman, in a long term basis.

It's also very predictable and usually has smaller patterns, which we do not find in either Lois or Clark. (Sexual healing?, being one.)

We do however, find a lot of anti-thesis.

It's much too extreme for them to act out in such an "out of character" manner in such a short period of time. It leads to many other questions about the characters, which is difficult to pass as out of character character.

It can, however, be action exhibited by different people, but that would be dealing with a case X vs a case we do know and are able to analyse.

Remember, Lois' immediate reaction in the show was to internalize her pain in response to Perry White. That shows a lot of mental and emotional stability to begin with and she wasn't despondent over the lack of intervention from Superman. That is also derived from popular TOGOM fic, but also not very accurate.

Anyhow,
Assuming such a position is very difficult, as Tank much more simply put it.

Whoo boy, do I feel like devil's advocate here or what? I swear I'm not trying to be though! Honest.

Dundan - all your points sound valid to me in their own context (at least to my foggy brain at 3 am ), but what you mention above doesn't, in *my* opinion, fit with the story. You say "after the grieving process." In the story, there hasn't *been* any time to grieve "properly." There's only that instantaneous (I'll be amazed if I spelled that right at this hour ) wham of pain and that first stage of denial - this didn't really happen, it couldn't have happened, but somewhere deep down, I know it did, but I don't want to think right now. About anything. And you feel sort of suspended in a place that's not quite reality. That's how I see it. And that's where I think Lois and Clark both were.

And I'm going to stop now. For one, I'm afraid that I really have rambled this time, and for two, Jose's going to see this and know I didn't make it to bed yet. I'm going now, I swear! :p

Sara (who's really starting to wonder about her choice in words - *devil's* advocate - and what that says about the authors )

Sara, you're right The first paragraph was dealing mainly with a general context not based on the outline of the story, from beginning to its spin. So I suppose we're both right in that regard. lol

(Dundan, who kicks Sara back to bed )

I was mainly referring to Wendy's earlier statement/s.

*You must sleep*

Any body got asprin? And some rum?

Before this gets into too much of a debate, let's remember one thing.

This is a fiction story.

Wendy, and Kae, as the writers control the actions of the characters in their story. They apparently believe that, under the conditions they created, Lois and Clark could use sex as a comfort tool. I don't.

But it's not my story. They invite our opinions with these comment threads, but the bottom line is that it's still their interpetation of events that is being portrayed. You must take the story as it's delievered and base your enjoyment on how well you can 'get into' what's happening.

No one doubts the talent of the two young women, but ultimately each gentle reader will take from the story what they will.

Tank (who knows he has certain 'prejudices' when it comes to Lois and Clark that don't always jibe with what others think... and that's fine too)

Interesting controversy over whether or not L & S would have sex as a response to Clark's death - very parallel to the debate among readers when ML Thompson posted her TOGoM fic, Second Stage of Grief, in which Lois has sex as a response to Clark's death.

Also all of what Tank said <g>

But ... gotta say, people -- death as a sexual turn-on???

cc m

Interesting discussion. I think many good points have been made on both sides of the argument, but I just wondered this - if we throw Clark's virginity into the mix, does that change the dynamics of the situation at all?

Yvonne

Wendy and Kae...wow! I love it! But since everyone has already said everything I got nothing to add but...Wow! I love it.

TEEEEEEEEEEEEEEJ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Quel Lane:
<strong> OH MY GOD!!!!! Hurry up with the next part, please

Well, I'm as guilty as ever of not having time to read the story, but finding myself in the comments folder out of sheer curiosity. Hey, it's the only fanfic pleasure I mostly get these days.

Just wanted to say that I've found the debate on this one fascinating. And especially wanted to give you kudos, Dundan, for not letting being a newbie get in the way of your posting your opinion. Quite right too! Keep it up. Your pov is as valid as anyone else's and not restricted by how long you've been hanging out here. I've certainly enjoyed your friendly, intelligent and good-natured contributions to the debate.

LabRat

Just dropping in again to say ditto LabRat - fascinating debate, and I should have said before, Dundan - welcome.

As Tank said, it's fiction. Sure, there's a question of whether the reactions of the characters here are believable or not in the circumstances, and that's got to be down to individual readers. Some believe it could happen; others don't. No-one's right or wrong here. I encounter scenarios in fanfic sometimes which I don't really feel are credible, but others do - YMMV.

As you say, Dundan, in the episode Lois soldiered on; she turned up at the Planet the next day, griefstricken but determined to do her job. But we're posing a different scenario: what if Clark's 'death' was even more traumatic as a result of his confession of love, and what if Clark was with her as Superman, even more devastated than he was in the series because he was seeing her grief too? Sure, you still might not be able to accept this outcome, but we believe that it's one logical possibility.

Carol, yes, Kae and I were just saying last night (well, this morning for her ) that this is similar to the discussion on an early part of Second Stage of Grief. I think the credibility issue is somewhat similar here too. Incidentally, Carol, I don't think we were trying to imply that it was a turn-on, as you put it - if it came across that way, we'll have to look again at the scene. What happened was, as we see it, two people turning to each other to share uncontrollable grief. There was no conscious thought there. Lois desperately needed to feel close to someone; I think someone suggested that there might even have been some element of subconscious awareness that she was with Clark. Well, she did think that Superman was even sounding like Clark at that point. No, that's not a clue about what might be coming up! It's just an observation about something else which might have affected her impulses. Not her thought processes - let's face it: she wasn't thinking.

Thanks so much for being so enthusiastic in this debate. If anyone really can't accept this development, then we'll perfectly understand if you don't want to read on - we won't be offended. For those who can, we'll look forward to seeing you in the next comment folder.


Wendy

Er... Excuse me to stop by in the middle of this debate and send some quick feedback on this.

First off, I am really enjoying it. The scenario here is totally original and not out of character.

I am really amazed that people think that this cant work. It works so well, that the girls are posting it and people are here debating and sending their feedback. If it wasn't working, the readers would simply do not stop by and waste their time sending their FDK.

I am also confused when people say Lois and Clark should behave like this and that. Guys, you want something original or you want it to be predictable and waffy all the time? The way it is now, it seems that no matter how much we work on our plots, the stories "have" to be the way readers want and predict. Let's not forget that even if the story looks weird to our opinions, writers are free to play with the characters as they please and for the reader there's only the choice to follow the story or not.

Personally, I think I prefer reading the original plots nowadays than the predictable ones. After ten years of show... although we just love them, they tend to get boring.


MDL. (who's really going to hide now and hope she made some sense out her speech despite her miserable English.)

MDL wrote: No, I don't think any of us who expressed concern about L&C acting "out of character" - in our opinions - want everything to always be predictable and waffy. And I think that the writers in our fandom - most certainly Wendy and Kae included - are proof that it doesn't have to be. Yesterday Lynn posted her latest installment of Haunting Eden that has everyone pulling out their hair - has there been a waffy moment in the entire fic thus far? - and it's as original as all get out. And Nan has just posted Part 24 of Twins and thrown yet another totally unexpected plot twist at us (at least, I didn't expect it). That's two examples within the past 24 hours...there are hundreds more.

But you can be original and stay "in character". And it's the "in character" that can sometimes be a gray area, because it's so personal for everyone. If I give the extreme example of a Clark Kent who starts dropping people off the tops of tall buildings, I think everyone would agree that this is "out of character". Of course, with the proper motivation and in the hands of a gifted author, it could be done.

Then you have examples that aren't so extreme. Is it OOC for L&C to sleep together before marriage? They didn't on the show, but in a story if the circumstances were right...some people believe very strongly on each side, and in a case like this it's much harder to argue for what is a "definitive" answer, if there is one at all.

Speaking just for myself, I always have a hard time with the issue of Clark sleeping with Lois as "Superman" before telling her the truth. And especially under these circumstances... I know that he *wasn't* thinking and was nearly numb with grief, but somehow - perhaps unfairly - I hold him up to that higher standard that he would have resisted. Like Toc, I could picture both of them going *part* (maybe almost all) of the way, but somehow stopping in time...

Absolutely. The story belongs to the author(s), and they have the final word.

But I think that most authors post WIPs on the mbs to get comments from the readers as to what people like or what maybe doesn't work as well, otherwise they'd just wait until it was finished and publish on the Archive. It doesn't mean that an author is going to automatically change *everything* that a reader questions - certainly not! The author may decide that something does need to be clarified/changed, or that it's just fine as it is. We're just adding another opinion that the author can consider, if he/she chooses to.

Well, like Sara before me, I think I've taken up too much space in this folder, so I'd better scoot...

Kathy

Thanks for the encouragement, lol. No, I actually felt a little bad about posting since I felt like I was slowly chiseling away at Hoover Dam. I know this is fiction but someone once said we are stewards of popular culture and I agree with that (a comic book editor). I was just giving my own hopefully, well taken criticism on the situation.

I would like to offer a different spin however, death is a major turn-off. That would lead to an instant betrayal in my view, and well I've said enough about that. I'm certainly not trying to Stop the Presses here, as everyone is entitled to their own interpretation.

Again, thank you, and I hope I helped.

I have a different approach to writing, which may be more boring, but I am looking forward with err, dread to the next installment.

(Wow, no flame wars! Hurray!!)

Am wondering if 'totally orginal' is really the right phrase here, MDL, given that the scenario arises out of TOGoM and also that ML's Second Stage of Grief dealt with Lois using sex as a way of dealing with Clark's death in TOGOM. (Sorry to repeat this point but I do think it's important to acknowledge the earlier story)

In fact, it's really very difficult, imo, to write a fic that is totally orginal yet doesn't have either CK/S or Lois acting out of character or contradict key bits of canon.

This is not to say, though, that Wendy and Kae's writing is not good stuff:) and that sex with Superman in these circumstances is not an interesting premise. And who knows what will happen next.

cc m

Frankly, I expected them to start and then stop. Repairing the relationship from this point will be harder to do, but OTOH, that makes the story more interesting.
So start posting as fast as you can!!!!!

Artemis

Kaethel and Wendy

WOW! I've just read this and there're already 34 responses.

Tricia

Bump.

(Sorry, bad joke )

Sex is primal, basic, I thought that on that level at least, these two "soul mates" would know each other. Lois is out of her mind with grief? I think she would have to be comatose not to know at this point Clark and Superman are one and the same.
Should she harm anyone though, insanity could be a good defence.

This will be a short post as I'm not home and am using a French keyboard (something I haven't done in weeks ), but I just wanted to step in on behalf of both of us to reassure those who seemed to express concern, that Wendy and I are absolutely delighted with the debate, and very admirative that everyone is expressing their views in a very coherent and polite manner.

Now, we knew right from the start that this premise would be controversial, and so we were prepared for this debate of course. You all make excellent points, and raise an interesting question: would Lois and Clark's grief lead them to lose control and comfort each other by being intimate?

Well, as Carol pointed out, we're not pioneers there: ML already explored Lois's side of the issue with her excellent Second Stage of Grief, which I strongly recommend. Our motivation was to explore Clark's side of the issue as well: Clark's "death" hit him just as hard as it did Lois. The format of the show (45 minutes only) didn't allow the writers to fully develop his side of things, I think. When Barrow shot him, Clark lost his life. He had always been Clark Kent before being Superman, and being Superman only was no life to him. What would happen the first time he had a bad rescue and needed support or reassurance? As Superman, could he turn to Lois? He would have no escape in any kind of "normal" life. I don't want to develop this further here as it's something we're dealing with later in the story, and I don't want to spoil it. But my point is, Barrow stole Clark's life; he *killed* him, if not physically, then at least emotionally. And Clark's loneliness that night was just as big as Lois's. Whether that would lead them to seek comfort in each other is another can of worms, and as we saw in this thread, open to each individual's interpretation of the characters.

Wendy and I both believe that this situation is one that could lead them to where they are now in our story; some of you agree with us, while some others don't think Superman would break his ethics and sleep with Lois under the circumstances. As Kathy said so eloquently, we have the same kind of split in interpretation between those who don't think Lois and Clark would be intimate before marriage, and those who never understood why they waited (and you can guess what my opinion is ).

Anyway, just my .02... did I say I'd keep this short?

Kaethel

Apologies for the late FDK.

I didn't think this would end well. <g>

I think, like I told you already, that Clark would feel even worse if she wasn't cold toward him - if she acted as if she were in love with Superman. At least now he knows that she loved Clark, and not his two dimensional creation.

Sorry if this was mentioned - I didn't read the rest of the folder - but I think you meant "given HIS life for her."

Aww, I just want to cry. Poor Lois.

Great part, EvilSquad, but we're ready got more now.

Julie

Whoops! Thanks, Julie!

And I'll echo what Kae has said - thank you all very much for reading and for commenting, and for making the debate on Lois and Superman's actions friendly and fun.

As Kae is busy today, I'll post part 3 now - hope you enjoy!


Wendy

Hi, everyone. VERY interesting discussion.

Wendy and Kae, wonderful, absorbing, thought provoking writing as always. You're doing a terrific job showing us both sides, and what both Lois and "Superman" are thinking and feeling.

I think I'm weighing a little more right now on the "I'm having a little problem with this" side although I'm looking forward to see how this plays out.

Yes, Lois and Clark are both acting out of character, but I was VERY surprised at just HOW out of character both of them behaved - the coldness and anger, and guilt that Lois exhibited were VERY believable and on target, but I'm still not convinced that this would've been a path they let themselves fall onto. But I'm keeping an open mind!

Off to read part 3 before I get innundated with work e-mail and phone calls....

Vicki