Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related Religion in Fiction?

Sometimes I get a nifty-cool idea for an elseworlds/Alternate Universe, like one where Clark is a Catholic priest, or a Muslim, or something. The ideas and the possibilities intrigue me, yet before I even start typing, I get weirded out.

From when I was little, the idea of handling real religions in a fictitious setting just seemed strange to me. I don't know if I can explain it. Combining fact and fiction in this manner just seems wrong, somehow.

Does anyone else ever feel this way?


ETA: Just A Reminder-- The topic is "Real Religions in Fiction". Talking about 'real religions in real life' can get ugly.

*sigh*...poor episcopalian Usenet guy...they never found his head...

...Okay, I made that up. But the point still stands.

For me, religion in fanfic has to be dealt with carefully. It has to be in character, to suit the character. I can think of some characters where not mentioning their religion or having them expressing religious beliefs opposite to those they have on the show is a problem. For example, Booth is Catholic. Although we don't see a lot of his religion on the show (or didn't when I watched - I'm waiting for the DVDs to see most of season 2 because my reception of FOX is awful), it is shown to be a pretty big part of him. So the respect in churches, respect towards prayer, and freaking out at Jesus being compared to zombies is to be expected, and needs to be remembered when writing fic. (On a side note here, I was very impressed with how the character was done. It was nice to see a character that plainly had some strong religious beliefs, but was not defined wholly by them, did not feel the need to bring it up every episode, etc.)

OTOH, most characters on tv today are not affiliated with any religion. Secular celebrations of Christmas is the most you get for most of them. So giving them any strong religious belief seems OOC in fic.

For Superman, I think it's more difficult to give him a religious affiliation, even in AU fic (where you don't have to worry about OOCness). I think this is because Superman is representative of the masses, is a symbol to us all, is there to serve us all, etc. And when you give him a (strong) religious affiliation, you almost slice that segment down. He becomes representative of or symbolic to that group rather than the whole world. It narrows his focus from humanity to a segment of humanity. Probably wouldn't be an issue if he were not-deeply-religious Muslim/Catholic/etc. (really wouldn't make his behaviors much different than they are on the show), but certainly would be if he was a religious official of any religion or was an extremely religious person, IMO.

I suppose religion in fiction doesn't bother me in general, but when it comes to fanfiction where there's already a general character layed out, I think it depends on the characters. I don't think it's disrespectful when the beliefs are portrayed appropriately, but I personally don't care if Clark goes to church every Sunday because it's something the show never ran with...

JD

Took me a minute to figure out Booth *g*. Finished my Bones marathon last week and am on Criminal Minds now... am almost all caught up *g*.

There is some mention of it in S2 - there's an ep that takes place in a Catholic church - not totally, but that's where the body is and so it comes up quite a bit. But, you're right, it's not overbearing - though he does cross himself a few times when Bones says something he deems... inappropriate? Sacreligious? Whatever term you want to use. But again, not over the top.

However, though Booth does seem to be a practicing Catholic, he doesn't seem to hold to all the... is tenets the word? He has no problem [that we see] with sleeping with women he's not married to [though I don't recall a truly casual/one night stand type thing]. I'm not quite sure how that plays in to it...

[I had a whole bunch here typed about L/C but it wasn't coming out right and my head hurts so... ].

Anyway, Bones does seem to do a pretty good job with it overall.

Carol [who spent almost 5 hours today hunched over a printer and can't think now...]

Yeah, sorry, guess I should have mentioned the show title.

Well, very few characters (or real live people) actually obey every tenet of their religion - at least here. You have the ideal - and then you have what you expect of yourself and other church-going folk. And then, of course, there are the hypocrites. And the ones who do their best to live up to the ideal, too, though those are rare, because it takes a lot of work to attempt perfection.

But Booth has a definite belief in heaven and hell and wants to go to heaven (and for Bones to, too - loved that line) and is quite uncomfortable with the inappropriate/sacrilegious behavior you previously mentioned. He may no be deeply religious, but he's definitely religious, and that's uncommon on tv today (or on old tv, from what I've seen).

Referencing the possibility of AU!Clark - I don't think I'd be interested in a deeply religious Clark, for the previously mentioned reason of it associating Superman with a section of humanity instead of humanity as a whole (though some would certainly say he's already associated with one section more than most, so that's your own interpretation). The other thing being that I'm not really big on AUs, anyway, unless they really do something different.

I'm reading a Supes AU now with the world under siige and Superman's greatest gift to the world is his hearing (and that was an "oh, wow" to me, given his powers - really drove home just how different the world was) due to the circumstances they are in. The reality they are in is so different and the characters are different to match that reality (much like a nice fic here wherein Cat and Lois utilize blackmail to get harassment laws passed/enforced - but less humorous). And that's the key to a good AU - making the characters enough like ours to make us want to keep reading, but enough different that we definitely know they aren't ours (and they have to fit in their worlds, and that is a beautifully-crafted world that they fit in).

So I guess that'd be the selling point to me - is the story AU only because Clark is a different religion (perhaps a different nationality?) or is the reason he's a different religion or a more religious person part of the world around him being different or a different backstory that somehow contributes to something bigger than just him being different? Both types of stories have their merits, but I'd be more a fan of the latter, because of the kind of AU's I like (whole world being different v. characters being different or being the same with different jobs or meeting later or whatever). If it's all about Clark being different than he is here, then he needs to be really different. Whatever religious belief he holds has to affect how he sees things and make him a different person than our Clark. You can't just say "he's exactly the same, except he's a priest." I definitely think it's absolutely fine to include religion in fiction, and would be fine for Clark in an AU fanfic, if someone wanted to work at it (as long as the author knows the religion they are talking about - elsewise they could end up depicting the religion wrongly, and I think that'd be a can of worms).

It's a delicate balance when dealing with Superman, as he's powerful enough to be considered a god by some. And it's that he doesn't set himself up as one that makes him such a hero. Actually, I could see a scenario where Clark comes to religion as a sort of fashion where he reminds himself he isn't God, can't do all this, reminds himself of what God is, and what he isn't if you wanted to keep his background similar to our Clark's.

I kept staring at it going "booth, booth, booth..." trying to remember - I'm not quite coherent .

I understand what you're saying about Booth [and religion in general]. Let me give a 'for instance' though... My dad was raised in a very strict Assemblies of God household [you didn't drink root beer because it was beer...]. I was raised not quite as strict [but playing cards... even for solitaire... *whew*!] and am not as strict, though there are certain things in particular I'll do my best to pass on to my kids.

Perhaps it's just where/how I was raised, but the 'no sex outside of marriage' one was a biggie. Dad frowns on drinking at all too [even my sister's wine coolers, but I don't like the taste anyway], but it's 'less' than the other [not that one sin is more or less than another - but you know what I mean... ] Maybe it's just how I was raised - and I know drinking doesn't have the stigma with Catholics as it does with many Protestants, but that's an example.

Anyway - yes, to this point, I do think Bones does a pretty good job with it [though part of me would like to see them address the issue - even if it's just Bones saying something about it when questioning his beliefs just... because, you know... *g*]

Anyway - I'm not sure what I'd see for Lois, but I could see Clark being raised in a church of some sort in Smallville. I think Islamic or Buddist or something would be harder to accept given where he's raised, unless it's something he found in his travels, you know? Catholic maybe for Lois - that seems to be the 'standby' for most TV shows [except maybe 7th Heaven]. Many TV shows have those who claim to at least be Catholic [Romano's in Everybody Loves Raymond, Joey in Friends [though he doesn't really claim to practice, just mentions his 7 Catholic sisters from time to time], several soaps, etc.] It seems if there is a religion mentioned regularly at all, it's Catholicism... I wonder why that is...
Carol

This is a fascinating discussion. I have to quote this:

Because it's close to how I feel about the matter. When I look at AUs (which is a fraught genre to begin with, right?) what strikes me is why the differences are there. Is it something to contribute to plot? If it doesn't there's a risk that it might sound gratuitous. That it's something that calls attention to itself as being somehow titillating. Normally a little of that is permissible (or even desirable ), but the fact that it's religion might complicate matters in the fic's reception.

For instance, in some soul mates motif thing, it'd be interesting to see Clark in a different culture following a different set of beliefs (so say I dunno, ancient Egypt--not to ruffle any feathers). How does that affect the characters?

It's a complicated thing. But it does have the potential to be extremely interesting and thought provoking. Research would be key in any case.

My two cents.

alcyone

Because there are so many of them?

Actually, I suspect it's because everyone is a least familiar with Catholicism while with Protestants its harder unless the writer is really familiar with the denomination.

According to comic book canon Clark was raised Methodist but quit going to Sunday service when his super-hearing came in. Martha was a church-goer. There is some evidence that Lois was raised a Catholic.

The Religious Affiliation of Comic Book Heroes

Mixing religion in fiction makes me deeply nervous. Fictional universes are generally created without an active deity of any sort -- people may mention God, but He doesn't actually ever do anything and it's up to people/characters to save the day, etc. I can understand why; they don't want to get dragged into theological arguments. Not to mention avoiding the deus ex machina problem. But when it's established that way and then a particular fic says, in essence, "but what if God really does exist?" then that's a big leap and is so easy to get wrong.

I may be overly sensitive on the topic. My husband likes it when a show treats Christianity (and religion in general) with respect -- like when Babylon 5 has priests or preachers as supporting characters. True, they're portrayed as very decent, hard-working, good-willed people... but they don't display any spiritual power. JMS is an atheist, so I guess I'm happy that he's treating the matter with respect, but still... it's like a pale imitation of the real thing. "Hey, those religious types are really nice people, and if they want to believe in that hocus-pocus, I'm cool with that, but come on, it's not, like, *true* or anything."

And then there's the first Superman movie. Hubby likes to point out what he sees as parallels to Jesus -- Jor-El so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son to save it, etc. -- but that just makes me grind my teeth and act real hostile.

PJ

Tzigone, is it Shatterfall that you're reading? Fabulous story. I just wish the author would update more often!

I personally will read any interesting, well-written L&C story, whether it features religion or not. I imagine that religion isn't something you see a lot of in fanfic because it can be a sensitive subject, but so is deathfic, so if you want to write it - write it!

Lisa (who has spent many hours cogitating on the Superman-as-a-Christ-figure allegory)

I remember someone posting on this a while back on another board. Called Jor-El a liar. Sure, you're sending your son here to show us the way - has nothing to do with the fact that your planet is about to blow up.

Really, the parallels were a bit more with Moses in the early comics - Kal-El was sent away to save Kal-El's life, not to save humankind. And that's found in various myths and folk tales, too.

Yes, it is, and I love, love, love it. Best fic I've read in a long time. One of the best fics I've ever read. Despite the contradictions in timeline (Superman says he's known Luthor as a scientist for 15 years, but then we hear that 15 years ago (or maybe 17, since time passes in the story) Luthor was 14. One reference says no journalist has been jailed under the Good Citizen act in a decade and another says Lois was protecting her people from it recently.) But still wonderful. The world itself is so fantastic, so real and the characters are enough like ours and yet fit in that world so well, with their weariness and sometimes passivity (compared to our characters). Oh, and the perspective it's written from is so limited, and yet it works so well. I love it. I can talk about it for ages and and ages just talking about all the cool stuff in that story and how it all fits together to make such a great whole.

Yup - there are quite a number of us out there who think that Jor-El (at least the movie one) was a real piece of work. The LnC one wasn't much better - he sent his kid off to Earth, but apparently with the expectation that he was going to grow up and be blindly obedient to the Kryptonian cause?

As for adding religious views to fictional characters - like any other attribute, it can add to the character's background, filling in blanks, giving so insight into how the person was raised, how they view the world. Adding religious background, or even religious thoughts to a character doesn't mean you have to get metaphysical or have a deity as an active character.

Nothing compared to the Smallville one, though. I really thought he was going to be revealed as Zod or Eradicator. But it seems we're supposed to accept it as "tough love" - yeesh.

Definitely agree with you there. Just because a character has faith or religious beliefs doesn't mean their deity has to be actively involved. It's just another facet of the character. Sometimes a strong one. But that doesn't mean that whatever deity they worship has to do anything. The story can be about a character with faith without being about the being they have faith in.

It's one of my favorite fics. I love the characters the author creates (they are so unique, so complex and fascinating) and her prose is absolutely gorgeous, stark and magnificent. Her style is unlike anything I've read, Superman-related. I liked her other one loads too (Eating Me Alive?...and it's funny because I'm reminded of the quote from Lucy-as-a-nun there, the "sheep from another flock"), but I think Shatterfall is better. Lois' grief in one of the earlier parts feels so palpable. I also wish she updated more often.

alcyone

random thoughts:

Interesting observation. It never occurred to me that the "spiel" by the characters was Religious but instead as a reflection of a moral and ethical code. (Not saying that those who are Religious lack moral and ethical codes, however. )

Perhaps because the Roman Catholic Church has been such a powerful lobby group?
The non-wedding in HoL was in a Catholic Church, but since Luthor planned that wedding, that decision probably says more about him. Btw, I always thought the similarity of the names Luthor and Lucifer were interesting. On the other hand there's Martin Luther so who knows?

The ancient Egypt idea could lead to some odd places - didn't the pharoahs of ancient Egypt believe that they must marry their sisters?

Both Shuster and Siegel were the sons of Jewish immigrants - I wonder if their religion influenced their work in any way?

c. off to check out Shatterfall )
edit: Okay, checked it out - the content is interesting but not dissimilar in tone and type of plot from a few fanfics on the archive. But what really impressed me was the writing - here and there, a phrase that seems on the surface to be purely descriptive of something physical carries hints of larger themes and insights. And sparely done. Good use of dialogue, too.

It reminded me, in tone and characterization, of a book I read about 10 years ago - can't remember the title - Superman is dead but by the end he has returned, defeated his enemies and reunited with Lois Lane. This book was not L & C: tNAoS (nor is Shatterfall accrding to the author) but set in the comics universe.
Vague description, I know but does anyone know the title?

But, warning: Shatterfall is a wip, so whole lot of trust (faith ) involved in picking it up. Btw, I didn't notice that it had a religious theme at all - what did I miss?

c.

No religious themes there that I noticed (but I am a literal person and must be banged on the head with symbolism to notice it), just wound of bringing it in when talking about AUs since the opening post of this thread references AUs and I went from specifically referencing religion in AUs to how distinct characterization in AUs should be and brought up that one as an example of good AU characterization (IMO) - I have an inability not to wander from the topic.

By the way TOC, there is a particular aspect about Shatterfall that I think you'd like.

As a practising Catholic I have to warn you all that, even though most people THINK that they know what the church is on about everything, a lot of what is published is absolute rubbish, so I would be very careful when you guys write that your facts are checked, double checked, and even ask the opinion of friends etc. to ensure your material is correct.... I mean Dan Brown is an excellent example of authors being totally insensitive and utterly insulting to all Catholics, but his impression of Opus Dei is absolutely 100 percent lies


YET FOR ANOTHER EXAMPLE in an academic setting,

I am currently studying a Master's degree in Bioethics, and my lecturer (who is a professor in medicine, philosophy, ethics and the history of all three...) gave a lecture with regards to the history of the Church's position on the moral status of the embryo and abortion etc. -----I WILL NOT GO INTO THIS IN DETAIL, as this is not a philosophical or ethical forum...

This lecture contained a very popular belief that the Church's position had "Flip-flopped" over the centuries,

NOW.... in the lecture I thought that this actually went against everything I knew on the subject, after being taught that the Church never changes her mind with regards to Doctrines...

so I looked it up, and sure enough, I found enough evidence from TRUSTED sources to back MY claim...
for my sources go to Catholic Culture.org
This is the title of the article
The Roman Catholic Church and Abortion: An Historical Perspective - Part I
sorry, couldnt get httml-link/ thingy to work


the long and the short of it is.....
Make sure that if you do site a religious opinion that you check with sites affiliated to the hierarchy of that religion (the Vatican, or the Local Bishops Association etc.,.,,,
so that you are not promulgating lies and speculation such as Dan Brown and my lecturer -----the latter, who did so innocently enough, please don't persecute him or anything----
The promulgation of these sort of misrepresentations of the religions is very damaging to the world because it is essentially aiding the promulgation of ignorance and also very disrespectful to the religious people as when they try to explain themselves they come up against walls of preconceived notions that they have to fight tooth and nail to get the truth known and hence their opinions respected

after checking out the SUPER-HEROES Religion page from above

it is interesting to note (given the anti-communist spiel of Hollywood between the 20's=90's
that DC and Marvel share around 8 heroes who are current communists/marxists
and a further 5 who identify as former communists

also on that page were at least 3 different "Jewish Supermen..."
plus two different Catholic "Supermen" from around the world (Not US publishers), but I didn't do a thorough search, only visual in 10 secs...

so I guess, along the lines of my pervious post, so long as you do what you want with the uttermost care not to get your facts wrong...

then the ficdom is all yours to create

Pam, around here it's considered a denomination *G* - of course, we live near the 'holy city' when it comes to AG. Our church is interdenominational [as I understand it - we believe denominations have a place but we choose not to be a part of one - we started going because of the pastor - I already knew him sort of - and stayed because they became family]. Our pastor was also raised Baptist, and actually raised here.

My grandpa was a preacher so maybe that has something to do with it. When I moved here to go to school, Dad wouldn't let me bring the playing cards even to play solitaire. He's absolutely scandalized that we play poker for *gasp* money! Not much but still... His new girlfriend has a glass of wine occasionally with her daughter's in laws [Catholic Italians] and even danced at her wedding - he refuses to go with her to one of those 'events'. He's already said he won't go to my sister's wedding [if there ever is one] if she does either of those.

As much as I love him [mostly], he is the extremely rigid, completely uncompromising, judgmental types that can give any religion a bad name - though he's better than some.

Back On Topic: if I read fiction with religion as a part of it, it tends to be by just a few authors I trust. I would likely read Erin's book even though it's Mormon [I think?] because I 'know' her, but I wouldn't seek out books about Mormons and may even avoid them [as in if I had two to pick from when purchasing, I'd probably pick the other something] just because it's not *my* beliefs and I don't have a lot of disposable cash or time for stuff like that. If I want to challenge my beliefs etc., it's unlikely I'll do it via fiction.

That said, I'll read just about any good story on the boards regardless of religious aspect - as long as the religious aspect is treated with respect - sort of like we talked about before with Bones.
Carol

It's a very interesting topic. and it can add enormously to a story.

For reference, Superman and religion and politics is a extremely good page.