Will we have a coup that will overthrow the Canadian government - Canadian style, of course. But then, we don't exactly use guns; we use politics.

And you gotta love Canadian politics - especially in a minority government

War plans? Who's Canada going to war against, Greenland? Or is this a sketch for the Red Green show?

Canada isn't going to war against anyone, Terry. The Conservatives took the first shot in a war against the Liberals, the NDP and the Bloc. Now the Liberals, NDP and Bloc are threatening to fire back.

That's the fun part about being Canadian. We don't need external enemies. We have enough fun attacking each other .

Well, as long as our politicians attack each other, at least they don't have time to enact stupid laws .

ML

ML meant the Governor-General, rather than the Attorney General.

I love the snark here, ML.

But define "opposition" . Given there are 3 political parties in Opposition, no two of which in combination has more seats than The Government Party, it'll be neccesary for a LIberal-NDP coaltion to also include the Bloc Quebecois whose goal is to separate from Canada.

So for this "coalition" to govern Canada, it would have to rely on the Party that wants to break up Canada.

Gotta love irony.

There. Are. NO ADULTS. in Parliament. None. Nada. Rien. Kein. Nope - no Grown-ups.

What economic crisis?

soooo teed off.

c.

Oops. Uh, yeah. That.

Well, that's the only reason I vote - so that I can, afterwards, sit on the sidelines and snark at all these clowns.

Personally, I think they should go all the way with this by making Gilles Duceppe the Prime Minister. Wouldn't that make politics in Canada fun? Or... at least make it fun for the last few months that Canada is a country

Wait! There's an economic crisis? Well, darn, someone should mention that to the boys on the hill.

Oh, but, wait! I thought that this fight was over the economic crisis. The Prime Minister of the week decided to take away the opposition's money because the entire Canadian economy was doomed if they paid out that $30 million. And the opposition is fighting to get the government to introduce a stimulus package. It has nothing to do with losing that money.

So see... they really are taking the economy seriously (and if you believe that, there's some swamp land in Florida I'd like to sell you - really cheaply, too, considering the economic times in which we live )

And you're just figuring this out now?

ML (who finds laughing at the idiocy of all politics so much more fun than debating the issues)

lol - ML, I want to believe! But , sadly, the truth is out there.

c.

I recently read that during the Great Depression, while small-town American banks were failing left and right (at least partly due to highly restrictive banking laws), there were almost no failures of Canadian banks, largely due to their ability to diversify their portfolios to spread their risk exposure and their ability to open branches across the nation and spread out their liabilities. That was smart, and it proves to Americans that Canadians don't just play hockey or sit around and drink beer and say 'eh' in every other sentence.

If the various political parties in the Canadian government are fighting against each other so hard that they can't pass laws, much less enact a comprehensive program of any kind, that's pretty restrictive. Of course, given the track record of most democratic/republican governments (type, not political persuasion), that's not necessarily a bad thing. Can you maybe export some of that southwards via NAFTA?

Spotted this in a friend's blog, which may help to put this in context:


"While we have been working on the economy, the opposition has been working on a backroom deal to overturn the results of the last election without seeking the consent of voters. They want to take power, not earn it."

(Stephen Harper in a statement to the press on the possibility of the Conservative minority government being replaced by a majority coalition of opposition parties - November 28, 2008)

“As leaders of the opposition parties, we are well aware that, given the Liberal minority government, you could be asked by the Prime Minister to dissolve the 38th Parliament at any time should the House of Commons fail to support some part of the government's program. We respectfully point out that the opposition parties, who together constitute a majority in the House, have been in close consultation. We believe that, should a request for dissolution arise this should give you cause, as constitutional practice has determined, to consult the opposition leaders and consider all of your options before exercising your constitutional authority. Your attention to this matter is appreciated."

(From a letter to the Governor-General signed by Jack Layton, Gilles Duceppe, and Stephen Harper - September 9, 2004)

In other words, Harper is complaining about something he tried to do himself!

Yes, those twin quotes are on the front page of today's Toronto Sun also.

What's even more ironic is... well, what exactly was the will of the people in the 2008 election? That Stephen Harper remain prime minister? That the Conservatives form a government? The Conservatives don't have a majority in Parliament. They're attempting to govern from a minority position. At the moment, therefore, the majority in Parliament, as elected by the voters, is the combined opposition parties. So who exactly is taking power without having earned it?


Wendy

But, MLT that surely can't be. Stephen Harper's own mother said that there was nothing wrong with the economy and that we should feel perfectly safe investing right now. Now, if Stephen Harper's Mom feels this way, we all should, right?

This whole situation is a mess. We just had an election that cost us millions of dollars. Now, the Opposition are thinking of forming a coalition government. Now, with the Liberals having the most numbers of seats out of the other Opposition parties, we're going to have Stephane Dion as Prime Minister. Lest we forget, Dion is stepping down from his post, so he really doesn't want to be PM. Ducceppe is the next logical step, but can you imagine what kind of country Canada would become with him as PM? Yes, he would make Canadian politics fun. I'm not sure about productive, but surely we would have fun.

Well, given the way our politicians are behaving, I think your reason is the best reason to vote. I think it would naive to actually vote cause you thought things would be different.

Well, we have our Finance Minister announcing today that more economic stimulus will be included in a January 27th budget. Now, the real question is, will this date really be his budget, or will it belong to the incoming coalition government?

Let's wait and see.

It's a total mess, screw -up, add in obscenties at your discretion.

So....

The Liberals, who had the worst electoral results of their party in over half a century are going to form the next government of Canada. The new Prime Minister, Stephane Dion, will be a person who had the lowest popular poll (doesn;t matter which poll or when it was done) confidence ratings of Harper, Layton, and himself throughout the campaign.

The Liberal-NDP coaltion will hold power only with the support of the Bloc Quebecois, a separatist party. So what is the deal that the Liberal-NDP have struck to guarantee that support? (and they *must* be able to demonstrate to the Governor General that they have that support if she is to ask them to form the government rather than call an election)

As well, what is the specific economic stimulus package that the Coaltion will present once they form the government? Since that is what they fault the current government on not offering, they must present their proposals.

This weekend the Conservative government has retreated from several of the proposals it made in the Speech From the Throne and has indicated it will provide some stimulus for the Canadian economy, including the automotive sector.

(although the US has to act first with respect to the auto sector, and that won't happen until the Big 3 report to Congress, and also until Obama takes office on Jan 20. Given Obama's ambivalence toward NAFTA, it's difficult for Canadians to plan specifically until we know what his admin will do)

so...

The Conservative Government screwed up big time,
and then
the Opposition actually Opposed (it's constitutional right)
and then
The Conservative Government offered a compromise
and then
the Oppostion did not meet them half way

no adults any where in all this - plotting and skullduggery everywhere. The national interest? no where - not in the wee souls of the Conservatives, the Liberals, and the NDP. At least the Bloc Q have been up front about the national interest never having been part of their agenda - well define Nation, but I digress)

teed off big time (would have stronger words but this is not the
n side of the universe

sadly

One bloody, dysfunctional mess.

c.

I'm not sure that it's true to say that the Opposition didn't meet the government half-way - as I read it, the Opposition objected to the lack of any economic stimulus package, in response to which the Conservatives removed the 'removing funding from political parties' proposal (which was never part of the election platform and appeared out of the blue this week). Yes, Flaherty is now saying that there may be economic stimulus in January, but many commentators feel that this will be too late. Still, I'm certainly not an expert on Canadian party politics and strategy, and it's just as likely that the Opposition parties believe that they have the Conservatives on the run now so why on earth should they stop now?

As for who would be prime minister under an Opposition-parties coalition, there are apparently already talks between the parties to dump Dion ASAP and bring in someone who might be perceived as a bit more acceptable to the electorate - and, true, to the opposition parties (and, naturally, is neither Bob Rae nor Michael Ignatieff... ). The question is, of course, whether such a paragon actually exists. The name I've seen mentioned is Ralph Goodale, but I know too little about the personalities to guess whether he'd more closely resemble David quelling Goliath, or... well,




Wendy

Hey, now you're catching on.

wendy wrote:

Yesterday, at a press conference, Flaherty (our finance minister for any non-Canadian who might be reading this ) said that there *would* be aid for the automotive sector in the January budget as part of a stimulus package. But I do agree that it would have been more reassuring to see a more specific stimulus package announced.

The Americans have yet to introduce a stimulus package, other than the bank bailouts. Our government had already injected money into the banking system. As well our banking system is was not quite as shaky as the American one. (not this government's doing, btw - our syystem has been in place for over half a century. (That means I've forgotten the exact date the Bank of Canada and all those banking regs were put in place! )

Of course, do we trust Flaherty? Do we trust very many of them?

Oh I agree, absolutely! The scent is in the air. And backing down is very hard to do,

Goodale as PM , eh? He's a bit of a bully in Hof C debates. But he was the interim leader prior to the convention that chose Dion, so it would be logical for the Party to pick him now, until the Liberal leadership is decided in May.

Still would really like to know what the Bloc has been promised in return for its support. Waiting for the media to ask some hard questions. Perhaps today they will, So far they've been too giddy covering the 'game' itself..

So very unstable - bet the stock market loses big points today.

Global economic crisis, rising unemployment and the boys in Ottawa are playing alpha-male Student Council games. (or pissing contests on the football field but I don't believe I can say that on the non-n side .)

sooooo teeeeeeeeeed off

c.

addition: The National Post is saying Michael Ignatief - if so that's a pretty amazing achivement for the very bright Ignatief. He returneed to Canada 2 years ago after a nearly 30 year absence - he'd decidied he would like to become leader of the Liberal Party . He lost to Dion but has become a very creditable Member of Parliament since then. According to the Post he was unwilling to support the Coaltion unless, well... he were its leader.

Game to Michael Ignatief. (okay the political junkie in me is fascinated by how he's played his hand)

but...

still teed off!

And what do you want to bet the Coaltion Gov't will still recess for Christamas as planned (Parliament breaks well before the Christmas week) and have no stilulus package ready to go before the end of January which is when the Conservatives were going to announce theirs.

teed off and cynical

I think a lot of the ruckus caused this weekend could have been avoided if the Fall Update contained a stimulus package. But, it seems that the Opposition threat of bringing down the government was needed to get the Tories thinking about a package.

I know there are thoughts as to whether Goodale, Ignatieff, and Rae could be the new PM. But, we do have a Liberal Leader already, Dion. He's announced that he's stepping down in May 2009. This is the PM were talking about. In this period of economic uncertainty, do we really want an interim PM, whose going to change a couple of months from now? I thought the whole point was to create stable leadership that would take us through this period of turmoil. But, perhaps the fun of these politics trumps the need for stability?

nail on the head, grinch - nail on the head.

btw, it might not be Iggy, after all - the soap op continues - Drama Queens now dominate our political narrative.

c.

Oh, I don't know, guys. I think Dion would be a cute Prime Minister. He sort of reminds me of a raggedy ann doll - you know, the one a five year old drags around by one leg with its head bouncing on the ground

I couldn't find the perfect picture to show you what I mean

Oh, hey! I just noticed! Now, doesn't the baby in that photo remind you of Steven Harper? (and people thought the two of them didn't like each other )


ML

Oh, oh, oh! Or maybe that's Dion and Layton.

Latest update: Signed agreement between the opposition parties to form a coalition if the Conservatives lose the confidence motion on December 8. And, interestingly, it's been agreed between the three parties that Dion will be leader/prime minister.

Well, well, well...

Wendy

But, Wendy, from what I've read on CBC, there could be two things that could prevent a coalition government from forming:

1. The Governor General not allowing one to form, and calling an election so that the public decides who they want to lead the country.

2. The PM suspending parliament without dissolving it. I tried to check what this actually means, but couldn't come up with anything.

So, Stephen Harper still has an out. I'm not sure how viable it is however.

MLT, you must be confused. The baby you showed us is the next PM. Haven't you heard? Anybody can take up the position now in Canada!

Actually, Grinch, there are two things that could prevent a coalition from forming, but they aren’t the two that you mentioned.

You’re right in that the Governor General could, if the government is defeated, call another election instead of agreeing to a coalition government by the opposition. However, if I recall correctly, on one occasion in the past, the Governor General refused to call another election because it had only been eight months since the previous election. In this case, it has only been... what? Six weeks?

Besides, what would another election accomplish? Isn’t it entirely possible we would find ourselves right back in the same position? Well, except I suppose it would help us decide what to do with another $300 million dollars of taxpayer money. Think of all the temporary jobs that another election would create. Hey, maybe this is the way to keep Canadians working! We could just have election after election.

But given that it has only been six weeks, and that there is no guarantee that another election would change anything, I'd be surprised if the Governor General doesn't agree to let the opposition have a go at making the government work.

The second thing that could happen to prevent a coalition government from forming is that one or more of the opposition parties could change their minds.

The adjourning of parliament doesn’t solve anything - it just delays things. The government could still be defeated in January. So what does Harper do if the opposition still wants to form a coalition in January? Adjourn to February? March? April? May?

(Hey, I’m sort of liking this. We could end up never again having a government in Canada. And as an anarchist, that would be right up my alley. Besides, think of all the money not having a government would save us. )

Also, the Prime Minister can’t just decide to adjourn parliament. He has to ask the Governor General for permission to adjourn parliament and she can say no.

And she might say no. It’s my understanding that she is only supposed to agree to adjourn when parliament has finished its business for the session - not because the ruling party wants to avoid facing parliament. Also, there is the legal question of whether she can agree to an adjournment from her Prime Minister where her Prime Minister has clearly lost the confidence of the house.

Either way, I'd love to be a fly on the wall in whatever hotel the Governor General is staying in at the moment. Now, THAT would be good entertainment. (Bet the Prime Minister is wishing he'd been nicer to Michaelle Jean now, eh )

Personally, I'm still trying to get my head around the idea that the opposition actually seems to be planning to go to go ahead with this. I really thought they were just saber rattling and would back down when Harper recognized that he was the head of a MINORITY government.

Now, my personal opinion is that the way to solve this is to send all of them to bed without their dinners and tell them they don’t get to be on television again until they learn to play nice. Given how much they seem to like to appear on television, that should work.

ML

And I thought our politics are messy across the border.

I just discovered that there appears to be a third option open to the Governor General. I didn't know this option existed. But apparently, the Governor General can just refuse to accept Harper's resignation and require Harper to go back and work with the opposition to come up with an acceptable working government.

Now, that is an intriguing possibility. But given the mood of the opposition, would it be a futile gesture?

Only one thing is for certain, we are all learning a lot about how a Constitutional Monarchy works

I remember learning somewhere that the distance between the chairs for the government and the chairs for the opposition in the House of Commons is two sword lengths. This was done so that, during debates, the two debaters couldn't pull out their swords and stab each other.

After watching the conduct in the House of Commons these past few days, I'm thinking of writing to suggest that they put bullet proof glass between them as well.

Seriously, these guys (from all parties) have gone off the deep end. Now, if only we could find some way to get them all committed... Or jailed. Hey, is there some way we can take advantage of Harper's 'tough on crime' policies to make that happen?

But help is here. The Governor General has returned home [enter Michaelle Jean on white horse]. I'm sure she'll get them all calmed down. After all, she's a woman. Calm. Collected. The voice of reason. I'm sure she'll have these men well in hand in no time. (Or at least, we can always hope

Well, according to what I saw in the paper today, she's saved the day by shutting down Parliament. I guess it gives Harper some breathing room, but then again, the opposition is breathing fire.

Should be quite a lot of fireworks, come New Year's.

PJ

The hilarious - or infuriating, depending on how seriously you're taking this - thing about Harper's jumping-up-and-down-in-fury reaction is that he's accusing the Liberals and NDP of 'doing backroom deals with separatists'. Well, let's see... In 2004, when Paul Martin's Liberal government hit minority standing due to by-election and other losses, Harper wrote to the then Governor-General asking her to deny any request by Martin to dissolve Parliament as he and the other party leaders (NDP and Bloc Québecois) were in 'close communication' and believed that they could form a government. The letter was signed by all three leaders. Rumour has it something very similar happened in 2000 or so, during the Chrétien era.

Then, when Harper came out of the last election as leader of the largest party but without a majority, who did he announce a coalition with on election night, with votes still being counted in Western Canada? The Bloc Québecois; in other words, the separatists.

Someone needs to explain to Harper how parliamentary democracies work: if your party doesn't have a majority, the only way you can govern is by forming alliances with other parties. Since the election, he's given the appearance that he doesn't think he needs to do that - in fact, given the proposals he put forward, on cutting federal funding for political parties, curbing equal pay claims and other controversial measures, as well as failing to produce a stimulus package for the economy, he was practically thumbing his nose at the other parties. Me, I think he deserves all he gets.

On the other hand, the alternative is still Stéphane Dion, the leader so incompetent that he allows himself to be filmed addressing the nation with a book clearly visible behind him entitled Hot Air!


Wendy

Although, Harper did immediately remove those specific proposals Wendy listed in reponse to the opposition parties' objections. However, there the Coaltion did not budge.

The difference between this coalition and the earlier suggestions that Wendy mentioned is that this one is more specific - for example, it guraantees that the Bloc Quebecois will be part of the consultative process shaping legislation for one and a half years.

There is a provincial election on Monday in Quebec - the PQ is in not in power at the moment but it has been in the past. Pauline Marois is the head of the Parrti Quebecois, the separatist (or soverignist or independiste: you chose the label ) party there. The PQ is in not in power at the moment but it has been in the past. She has been quoted saying that as soon as the Coaltion takes power in Ottawa, they will immediately transfer $1B to Quebec.

I'm still teed at both sides in this whole mess - boys playing testerone challenge with my country at a time when we are facing serious economic challeneges.

Harper's proroguing the House of Commons means, in effect that there will be about an extra week that the House will not sit. (they would ordinarily be shutting down for what I've always thought was a very long Xmas recess )

I'm hoping during this period that all paries will scout out the few adults in their groups and listen to them!

Did have to smile at Dion's video though. Have to wonder how it came to be so ineptly done - I wonder if some insider did this to sabotage him? It's like that NDP caucus conference call that the Tories listened in on. According to the NDP spokesperson, a Tory MP "inadvertenly" was included on the list that set up the conference call. Yeah?? Like how could that happen??

You look for comic relief where you can find it these days.

c.

Speaking of comic relief... Anyone watch the Royal Canadian Air Farce last night? Their final show - other than their new years eve special (I'm in mourning about that, by the way

Well, I guess that no matter what happens in January, Dion will never be Prime Minister. He apparently anounced today that he will be stepping down as leader of the Liberal Party as soon as an interim leader can be appointed.

Now... who will that be? Rae? Ignatieff? Or will they appoint someone else until the leadership convention in May?

The other guy (can never remember the name of the third leadership candidate) withdrew from the race today, throwing his support behind Ignatieff. And I've heard lots of talk about the Liberals wanting to appoint someone here and now that will then just be confirmed during the leadership convention. So... the plot thickens. They are even talking about the possibility that the Liberals could have a full membership vote on the issue - via text messaging.

Hey, maybe we should all take out Liberal Party membership just in case! And I see that you can take out membership on line! With the situation in the House of Commons, this could be your only chance to vote on who the next Prime Minister will be

And in the continuing soup opera... Quebec's election is tonight. So I guess we'll get to see if, so far, Harper's continual pounding of the Bloc has resulted in a resurgence of the separtist party. Last poll results I heard about were that the Liberals are still expected to get a majority government. But who knows. Could be interesting.

ML