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Kerth
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Interesting thoughts, Mike. At the very least, you've probably reminded the writers that the WHAM thread exists and maybe we should use it occasionally. Having said that, I've read plenty of 'evil' LnC stories and only one rape scene. That rape scene was in a story I was betaing for a new writer. The rape scene was so graphic that I strongly suggested she re-write it. She did, but in reading it a second time, I felt just as sick as I had the first time. Rape was central to the story, but it wasn't a story I felt fitted comfortably into the LnC landscape - so much so, that I requested that if the writer ever posted the story, she didn't credit me with having BRed it. To my knowledge, the story was never finished and never posted. We all know that danger and injury are part of the story of Lois and Clark but just bothered me to see the celebration of the ability to create a well written torture and rape scene which a number of the posts on this thread seem to be celebrating. I'm glad you shared your concerns, Mike. Perhaps there are more rape and torture scenes than I realise. However, I can't agree with your above statement that anyone was celebrating the ability to write truly gruesome detail. In this thread, I'm not sure that 'evil' really translates to rape/torture. I've been called 'evil' by some of my closest friends on these boards - I take it as a compliment because I don't think 'evil' actually means anything other than the ability to engage readers in a story that might have some drama/angst. A cliff-hanger can be 'evil' because the reader really, really wants to read the next chapter. Boy I did not mean to make this such a long post but I tried to craft the response to hopefully better state my position without p*ssing off a bunch of really good writers and people. I can't speak for other writers, but I've enjoyed receiving your FDK for my stories and I was interested in what you had to say here. Even though I don't agree on the 'celebrate' bit, it's always good to be reminded that when we post a story, we're inviting people into a scenario we created and we need to be mindful that readers mostly come here for enjoyment. Corrina. One more thing ... Virginia said ... Any way it's spelled, Corinna, you qualify as an Evil Writer (Female Hawk literally tortures Clark in Trusting Me, Trusting You ). Honey, you're OVERQUALIFIED. I know it was a light-hearted comment, V - one that made me smile, but there is no direct torture in TMTY - it's hinted at and the consequences are definitely there for all to see, but it's a story of healing not abuse, love not hate, forgiveness not brutality. 
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I try to put warnings in my stories prior to explicit scenes, which might turn a reader's stomach. While I've never had Lois raped in any of my stories, I have Lois had sexually attacked. (The attack was thankfully interrupted.) I hope I remembered to post a warning at the beginning of that part, and I apologize if I did not. I did recently post a not quite romantic sex scene which included this warning at the beginning: A/N: The scene starting with “Christine” is of explicit TMI nature and may be skipped by anyone wishing do to so. (Neither Lois nor Clark appear in the scene). Just scroll down to the next set of ***. But that was just for bad sex, not non-consensual sex. I also know that I included WHAM warning for my Wrong Clark series, because I killed off and injured so many people in Book 1 (mostly because it started with Clark's death). Included in that WHAM warning was warning of a romantic relationship between Lois and Dan that was actually tender and somewhat loving, which my Betas thought was icky, but only because Dan wasn't Clark. There was some things that could've triggered people's PTSD, because that was the story where Lois was sexually attacked, and those triggers triggered Lois as well (which was why Lois told both Dan and Lex she wasn't able for a more intimate relationship with either of them). I know that Lex often thinks and does things (although usually not described in too much detail, because there's only so far I would want to venture into his sick mind), which others could find uncomfortable to read. I'll try to remember to warn readers whenever I have another Lex POV scene, as his thoughts aren't often kind and he's been known to do non-consensual sexual torture. As a matter of fact, I'll update my WHAM warnings right now to reflect this. (Done) I'll work harder to make sure that anything of an explicit nature (implied or otherwise) will carry a warning ahead of time from now on, even if such horrible scenes don't include Lois or Clark (which they usually don't). Thanks for the reminder. FYI: When we self-proclaimed "Evil Writers" talk about Torturing our Characters, we mean it in the loosest of terms and not always literally and/or physically. As Clark will be the first to admit, just watching Lois dating and considering marrying Lex is torture to one who loves her and knows what Luthor is capable of. Sometimes the torture only involves the amount of roadblocks we've tossed in the path of true love (i.e. metaphorical torment). We hope the readers on this board know that the term "Evil Writer" is tongue-in-cheek and not literal. Female Hawk wrote: One more thing ... Virginia said ...
Any way it's spelled, Corinna, you qualify as an Evil Writer (Female Hawk literally tortures Clark in Trusting Me, Trusting You ). Honey, you're OVERQUALIFIED. Wait. All those K-Rod scenes happened off page? Really?  I guess my imagination is better than I thought when you faded to black and returned to show Clark beaten up. Yes, I meant it in a light-hearted manner. I'm also not one to call people "honey" either.  Sometimes my Southern heritage slips out, though.
VirginiaR.
"On the long road, take small steps." -- Jor-el, "The Foundling"
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Kerth
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Virginia - From memory, there is one scene where we see Clark exposed to K - but hey, that's stock standard LnC. There is also another scene where Lois exposed him to K, but there are good reasons for that. He is beaten by K-rods, but the readers only see (read) the effects of the beating. I'm glad your imagination was at work, though! I really tried to write the story so that each reader could apply their imagination to their own comfort (relatively speaking  ) level. Corrina.
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Virginia - From memory, there is one scene where we see Clark exposed to K - but hey, that's stock standard LnC. There is also another scene where Lois exposed him to K, but there are good reasons for that. He is beaten by K-rods, but the readers only see (read) the effects of the beating. I'm glad your imagination was at work, though! I really tried to write the story so that each reader could apply their imagination to their own comfort (relatively speaking ) level. Corrina. Corrina, I had been debating tackling your Trusting Me, Trusting You story due to my getting through Bob Bartholomew's After Nightfall story (much shorter) with a fair bit of Lex beating on Clark (as Superman) and I was beginning to get to my beating/torture limit with that one. Thanks for a bit of clarification as to story content. Mike
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I try to put warnings in my stories prior to explicit scenes, which might turn a reader's stomach. While I've never had Lois raped in any of my stories, I have Lois had sexually attacked. (The attack was thankfully interrupted.) I hope I remembered to post a warning at the beginning of that part, and I apologize if I did not. I did recently post a not quite romantic sex scene which included this warning at the beginning: A/N: The scene starting with “Christine” is of explicit TMI nature and may be skipped by anyone wishing do to so. (Neither Lois nor Clark appear in the scene). Just scroll down to the next set of ***. But that was just for bad sex, not non-consensual sex. I also know that I included WHAM warning for my Wrong Clark series, because I killed off and injured so many people in Book 1 (mostly because it started with Clark's death). Included in that WHAM warning was warning of a romantic relationship between Lois and Dan that was actually tender and somewhat loving, which my Betas thought was icky, but only because Dan wasn't Clark. There was some things that could've triggered people's PTSD, because that was the story where Lois was sexually attacked, and those triggers triggered Lois as well (which was why Lois told both Dan and Lex she wasn't able for a more intimate relationship with either of them). I know that Lex often thinks and does things (although usually not described in too much detail, because there's only so far I would want to venture into his sick mind), which others could find uncomfortable to read. I'll try to remember to warn readers whenever I have another Lex POV scene, as his thoughts aren't often kind and he's been known to do non-consensual sexual torture. As a matter of fact, I'll update my WHAM warnings right now to reflect this. (Done) I'll work harder to make sure that anything of an explicit nature (implied or otherwise) will carry a warning ahead of time from now on, even if such horrible scenes don't include Lois or Clark (which they usually don't). Thanks for the reminder. FYI: When we self-proclaimed "Evil Writers" talk about Torturing our Characters, we mean it in the loosest of terms and not always literally and/or physically. As Clark will be the first to admit, just watching Lois dating and considering marrying Lex is torture to one who loves her and knows what Luthor is capable of. Sometimes the torture only involves the amount of roadblocks we've tossed in the path of true love (i.e. metaphorical torment). We hope the readers on this board know that the term "Evil Writer" is tongue-in-cheek and not literal. Female Hawk wrote: One more thing ... Virginia said ...
Any way it's spelled, Corinna, you qualify as an Evil Writer (Female Hawk literally tortures Clark in Trusting Me, Trusting You ). Honey, you're OVERQUALIFIED. Wait. All those K-Rod scenes happened off page? Really? I guess my imagination is better than I thought when you faded to black and returned to show Clark beaten up. Yes, I meant it in a light-hearted manner. I'm also not one to call people "honey" either. Sometimes my Southern heritage slips out, though. Virginia, Thank you! This was the sort of discussion I was hoping to generate. I want to apologize for my 'celebrate' remark because actually one of your earlier posts that triggered it even though it was not your statement (might have been Queen of the Capes quote:1) You love to torture your characters. or should this be: "You torture your characters for fun." ?? but I realize that mental torture and physical torture are different and the quote could have meant either. Anyway, I love your writing and stories and don't consider you really an 'evil' writer. Whoops, forget I just said that [Smile]
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What did you do! Never *ever* encourage an EW. They will torture us readers if you tell them that it's not yet torture.
LOIS: [Razz] Does that mean that I'll now *never* going to get nookie with Clark? [Mad]
LEX: [Wave]
[Wave] Michael
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Kerth
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quote:Originally posted by Mike M:
Corrina,
I had been debating tackling your Trusting Me, Trusting You story due to my getting through Bob Bartholomew's After Nightfall story (much shorter) with a fair bit of Lex beating on Clark (as Superman) and I was beginning to get to my beating/torture limit with that one. Thanks for a bit of clarification as to story content.
Mike
The bad stuff is at the beginning of TMTY. If you can get through the first few chapters, it becomes a whole lot easier. I have never thought of it as 'torture fic'.
Corrina.
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I have to agree with Mike M on this point, I come to this site to escape from RL, not to have it shoved in my face.
quote: I am developing little tolerance for the rape issue even if it is paramount to the story. It is one of the reasons I have never read Broken (sorry). I read What Makes a Man by StopQuitDont (who I normally love) and I could not wait to get that story out of my head. I can read them but I feel empty/dirty at the end. I just recently did read In A Dark Time by Becky Bain and while I found the story worth the read I still did not feel good upon the end even though she (Becky) made a huge effort to get to end on an up note. I tend to agree with the great Nan Smith that she reads these stories to escape and the feel good at the end. I feel the same way so I try to make it a policy to avoid them if at all possible.
StopQuitDont wrote another story, On the Other Hand that was going along well until Lois was raped by one student and eventually Clark stepped up and married her. The entire story made a steady plunge into the ridiculous and I could not finish it. I have never been able to read anything else by the author. The rape was just a plot device.
I would have appreciated a warning.
Morgana
A writer's job is to think of new plots and create characters who stay with you long after the final page has been read. If that mission is accomplished than we have done what we set out to do, which is to entertain and hopefully educate.
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quote:Originally posted by Female Hawk:
quote:Originally posted by Mike M:
Corrina,
I had been debating tackling your Trusting Me, Trusting You story due to my getting through Bob Bartholomew's After Nightfall story (much shorter) with a fair bit of Lex beating on Clark (as Superman) and I was beginning to get to my beating/torture limit with that one. Thanks for a bit of clarification as to story content.
Mike
The bad stuff is at the beginning of TMTY. If you can get through the first few chapters, it becomes a whole lot easier. I have never thought of it as 'torture fic'.
Corrina.
Corrina,
Thanks for the information. I can easily get through the first few chapters. I am now getting into KenJ's Matchmaker series so it may be a while before I can get to TMTY as I am finding my limit at two to three stories simultaneously before I begin getting confused... Maybe I can find or create a .mobi of TMTY to use on an upcoming couple of trips via the wonder of air travel.
Thanks again.
Mike
Create all the happiness you are able to create.
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Jeremy Bentham
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quote:Originally posted by Morgana:
I have to agree with Mike M on this point, I come to this site to escape from RL, not to have it shoved in my face.
quote: I am developing little tolerance for the rape issue even if it is paramount to the story. It is one of the reasons I have never read Broken (sorry). I read What Makes a Man by StopQuitDont (who I normally love) and I could not wait to get that story out of my head. I can read them but I feel empty/dirty at the end. I just recently did read In A Dark Time by Becky Bain and while I found the story worth the read I still did not feel good upon the end even though she (Becky) made a huge effort to get to end on an up note. I tend to agree with the great Nan Smith that she reads these stories to escape and the feel good at the end. I feel the same way so I try to make it a policy to avoid them if at all possible.
StopQuitDont wrote another story, On the Other Hand that was going along well until Lois was raped by one student and eventually Clark stepped up and married her. The entire story made a steady plunge into the ridiculous and I could not finish it. I have never been able to read anything else by the author. The rape was just a plot device.
I would have appreciated a warning.
Took me a bit to find the story, it was actually written by CarolM and thanks for the warning as I might have read that one as I have been thinking about reading more of her stuff.
Mike
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Urgh! That teaches me to not write anything until I get my facts straight.
On the Other Hand was by CarolM! [Eek!]
StopQuitDont wrote The Way It Should Have Been which was very disappointing. I started reading that right after I stopped reading On the Other Hand.
Thanks for correcting me Mike!
Morgana
A writer's job is to think of new plots and create characters who stay with you long after the final page has been read. If that mission is accomplished than we have done what we set out to do, which is to entertain and hopefully educate.
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uote:Originally posted by Mike M: Maybe I can find or create a .mobi of TMTY to use on an upcoming couple of trips via the wonder of air travel. Our trusty fairies have already created one [Smiley] http://www.lcfanfic.com/wiki/doku.php?id=all_the_novels#female_hawkOn this sub-site there's also tons of other stories in ebook form. [Wave] Michael
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quote:Originally posted by Morgana:
On the Other Hand was by CarolM! [Eek!]
Actually, I liked that one. It was a tad soapy, sure, but very entertaining. There's trick to it, though:
*SPOILER ALERT*
*SPOILER ALERT*
*SPOILER ALERT*
*SPOILER ALERT*
*SPOILER ALERT*
The mentioned event did not actually happen. The plot device was to make the characters think it has happened. It sets up a lot of fun stuff later on and when you know it's just smoke and mirrors, it's easy to read past that kind of stuff. At least, that's me.
*SPOILER END*
*SPOILER END*
*SPOILER END*
*SPOILER END*
*SPOILER END*
[Wave] Michael
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quote:Originally posted by Darth Michael:
quote:Originally posted by Morgana:
On the Other Hand was by CarolM! [Eek!]
The mentioned event did not actually happen. The plot device was to make the characters think it has happened. It sets up a lot of fun stuff later on and when you know it's just smoke and mirrors, it's easy to read past that kind of stuff. At least, that's me.
[Wave] Michael
Thanks Michael. I may give it a try after all.
Mike
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Yikes! I opened a can of worms! Thanks for setting the record straight. Still, the story was way more than I could handle.
Morgana
A writer's job is to think of new plots and create characters who stay with you long after the final page has been read. If that mission is accomplished than we have done what we set out to do, which is to entertain and hopefully educate.
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quote:Originally posted by Morgana:
Yikes! I opened a can of worms! Thanks for setting the record straight. Still, the story was way more than I could handle.
No problem. I am glad we had this interchange though. Helped me through some tough sledding getting my mind around some of the topics discussed in this thread.
Mike
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quote:Originally posted by Mike M:
Virginia,
Thank you! This was the sort of discussion I was hoping to generate. I want to apologize for my 'celebrate' remark because actually one of your earlier posts that triggered it even though it was not your statement (might have been Queen of the Capes
quote:1) You love to torture your characters.
or should this be: "You torture your characters for fun." ??
but I realize that mental torture and physical torture are different and the quote could have meant either.
Nope. That was all me. [Goofy] What I meant by "torture characters for fun" was of course: Jimmy Interruptus. I think I broke the record for how many times Clark wanted to tell Lois something important and was interrupted by something/someone in Wrong Clark. By the end of that section, I was torturing my Readers as much as my characters. [Evil] Hmmmm. I don't know, or did I tie with "50 First Revelations"? (This month's FanFic of the Month selection, where Lois loses her memories over and over. VERY emotionally torturous to both of them. Of course, It's set right after Clark dumps Lois in Contact, so... [Notworthy] She keeps awaking with the memories from a month earlier, when they were in love and she's just learned CK=SM, and he keeps trying to bide by his awful decision. An EXCELLENT fic. with a happily ever after ending.)
quote:Anyway, I love your writing and stories and don't consider you really an 'evil' writer. Whoops, forget I just said that [Smile]
What? Me forget? Never! -
quote:Darth Michael wrote:
What did you do! Never *ever* encourage an EW. They will torture us readers if you tell them that it's not yet torture.
LOIS: [Razz] Does that mean that I'll now *never* going to get nookie with Clark? [Mad]
LEX: [Wave]
/Checks her tool belt for a screwdriver to tighten upcoming screws./ [Thumbsup]
quote:Originally posted by Morgana:
StopQuitDont wrote another story, On the Other Hand that was going along well until Lois was raped by one student and eventually Clark stepped up and married her. The entire story made a steady plunge into the ridiculous and I could not finish it. I have never been able to read anything else by the author. The rape was just a plot device.
I would have appreciated a warning.
Oh, SQD has some great WAFFY stories too. Blame it on the Mistletoe and Ice Cream Cone for example. (Psst. SQD, I don't think you've sent this one on to Labby at the Archives, yet.) She can get very dark, though. "Double Jeopardy" is all about Lois recovering from a violent WHAMy marriage to Lex, Mike and Morgana, so I don't doubt either of you would appreciate this drama.
VirginiaR.
"On the long road, take small steps." -- Jor-el, "The Foundling"
---
"clearly there is a lack of understanding between those two... he speaks Lunkheadanian and she Stubbornanian" -- chelo.
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quote:Originally posted by VirginiaR:
quote:Originally posted by Mike M:
Virginia,
Thank you! This was the sort of discussion I was hoping to generate. I want to apologize for my 'celebrate' remark because actually one of your earlier posts that triggered it even though it was not your statement (might have been Queen of the Capes
quote:1) You love to torture your characters.
or should this be: "You torture your characters for fun." ??
but I realize that mental torture and physical torture are different and the quote could have meant either.
Nope. That was all me. [Goofy] What I meant by "torture characters for fun" was of course: Jimmy Interruptus. I think I broke the record for how many times Clark wanted to tell Lois something important and was interrupted by something/someone in Wrong Clark. By the end of that section, I was torturing my Readers as much as my characters. [Evil] Hmmmm. I don't know, or did I tie with "50 First Revelations"? (This month's FanFic of the Month selection, where Lois loses her memories over and over. VERY emotionally torturous to both of them. Of course, It's set right after Clark dumps Lois in Contact, so... [Notworthy] She keeps awaking with the memories from a month earlier, when they were in love and she's just learned CK=SM, and he keeps trying to bide by his awful decision. An EXCELLENT fic. with a happily ever after ending.)
Well you aren't done with Wrong Clark so you could make a run for it...
Mike
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quote:Originally posted by Morgana:
StopQuitDont wrote The Way It Should Have Been which was very disappointing. I started reading that right after I stopped reading On the Other Hand.
Funny I actually kind of liked' The Way It Should Have Been' but actually like 'The Way It Is Now' which SQD wrote as a sequel on the nFC side even better because it closed some of the loops that 'The Way It Should Have Been' left open as well as threw in a New Kryptonian element into the mix. Both had a lot of angst both mental and physical (especially The Way It Is Now) so they were definitely dramatic but in both stories the main characters are strong against the odds and many times the ones I don't like is when one or the other is not strong.
I actually love this discussion because it helps me flesh out what I really like and don't.
Mike
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quote:Originally posted by Mike M:
Well you aren't done with Wrong Clark so you could make a run for it...
If I gave Lois amnesia and made Clark have to go back to the beginning of their relationship *again*, I'm sure my Readers would show me how much of my evilness has rubbed off on them and send me a parade of [Wildguy] [Wildguy] [Wildguy] Mostly, because Clark would probably stab himself with Anti-K's green dagger (hmmmm, did I ever return that when I borrowed it to open the Best Super Short story envelope at the Kerths? [Huh] ) then go through that again.
CLARK: Um... Virginia? [Eek!] Would I? Would I really? How about we don't find out?
Don't worry, I have different kinds of angst in store for them (both my characters and readers alike).
VirginiaR.
"On the long road, take small steps." -- Jor-el, "The Foundling"
---
"clearly there is a lack of understanding between those two... he speaks Lunkheadanian and she Stubbornanian" -- chelo.
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