Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Superman Related Post-Viewing Discussion: Man of Steel movie (SPOILERS)

Yay! I finally had a chance to see the movie.

I'll start off by sharing one reaction I had that I am guessing is unique among members of this MB: I thought the scenes with Clark and Zod reacting to their newly heightened senses were phenomenally well done. I was thrilled to see them, because now I have another tool in my arsenal for trying to describe to others what my son is going through when he has a meltdown due to sensory overload. Obviously my son doesn't have to deal with x-ray vision, but he still has trouble taking in all the sensory input when, say, he is in a crowded store that has music playing.

All right, while I'm typing, I guess I will give a few of my other thoughts:

- I was concerned when I saw Lara giving birth at the start of the movie that the producers didn't seem to know their Superman comic lore; I was quickly relieved of that misapprehension, though, when they indicated that Kal-El's natural conception and birth was the exception rather than the rule.

- I love what they did with Kelex. They kept the robot true to the comics while adapting it for modern movie-going audiences.

- As good as the movie was, I thought it could have been improved dramatically if they had shaved off at least 15, possibly even 30, minutes of the destruction. We would have gotten the idea of what was going on without the repetitive demolition.

- I had heard the phrase "Black Zero" bandied about a lot leading up to the movie, and had been eager to hear precisely what it referred to. If they actually uttered that phrase in the movie, though, I missed it. What, precisely, did it refer to? General Zod's ship? The terraforming ship? Something else?

- I had been excited that Lois was going to play a pivotal role in saving the world, but then was extremely disappointed to see that Emil Hamilton had to do what she apparently could not.

- I didn't like Jonathan's characterization. I had no problems with him being paranoid about his son, but I do have a problem with him saying that perhaps young Clark should have let the schoolbus-full of children die.

- 9/11 is still too fresh in my memory for me to feel comfortable being entertained by seeing buildings coming down, especially due to (admittedly extraterrestrial) terrorists.

- I'm still not sure why Jimmy Olsen underwent a sex change. Jenny played such a minor role in this movie that, unless they have gender-specific plans for her in a sequel, it seems to me to be change for change sake.

- Metropolis seemed so thoroughly destroyed, I'm wondering how the Planet managed to be back in business apparently so soon afterward.

- I really enjoyed the bit of romance between Lois and Clark in the movie.

- I'm hoping that there is enough box office response to this movie that they make a sequel, and that the sequel is as good. (Would it be too much to hope that they spend less time on punchy-punchy-run-run and special effects and devote the time thus gained to plot, characterization, and relationships?)

And on a different, although still movie-related, note -- I was in my local Walmart earlier this week, and it was wonderful seeing Superman memorabilia in several places around the store. I didn't buy anything, but it was still nice to see. (I did try on the shirts; unfortunately, they only sold men's shirts, and none of the sizes fit me well. I guess they didn't think there would be enough fan girls to warrant making Superman-themed women's shirts.)

Joy,
Lynn

edit: How could I forget such a biggie? I have seriously mixed feelings about Clark killing Zod, at least in the manner they showed. I think a lot of my opinion of that will depend on whether a sequel, if such there be, deals with him trying to come to terms with his actions and with how his killing Zod will affect humanity's view of him. On the one hand, it was certainly justifiable as an act of war and in defense of humanity; on the other hand, it is one of the first deeds of Superman which the world will have seen. Not necessarily the best first impression to make on humanity. If the sequel does deal with the psychological aftermath (both Clark's and the general human population's) and if it handles it well, then I might be OK with it. If not, then I am not.

I know that Superman has killed before, even relatively recently (late 1980s), in comic-book canon. The circumstances were actually fairly similar -- three Kryptonian criminals escaped the Phantom Zone and killed everyone on a pocket-universe's counterpart to earth. They threatened to do the same to Clark's earth. He exposed them to gold kryptonite to remove their powers permanently, and then executed them by exposing them to green K. But the comics spent *many* months dealing with the psychological aftermath of Clark breaking his vow never to kill. Clark was seriously haunted by his deeds -- he even exiled himself from earth -- but he had seen no other way to ensure the safety of earth. If the movies deal with the consequences of the killing as well as the comics did, I'll be OK with it. If they just gloss it over, however, then I would say that this isn't the way I would like to see Superman handled.

Steve Lombard was a Bronze Age character in the comics. Like Ralph, he was a real jerk most of the time. For a period of time, it was required in every issue that he play a practical joke on Clark, and that Clark would get back at him by the end of the issue, often via surreptitious use of his superpowers.

This was yet another nice nod to comic book fans.

Joy,
Lynn

To be honest, as much as I appreciate what they were doing in that scene, it took me out of the movie a bit. After all, kids in RL put on red towels to pretend to be a superhero because of Superman. Who was movie-Clark pretending to be?

I just met him when I read "All-Star Superman". He's a good companion / juxtaposition to Cat.

Interesting thoughts on Zod's motivations, Virginia. I'm not sure it's where they were going with it (though I'm not entirely sure), but I like it as a retcon if nothing else.

Zod did threaten to kill all the humans, but that may have been bluster in the heat of the moment; he never got a chance to calm down. Of course, he would have killed many, many more people before calming down, so it's not like killing *everyone* was necessary for him to need to be stopped.

Also, Lynn has expressed my thoughts on Superman's reaction to killing Zod better than I could!

My only gripe is the fact that the Clark disguise will work. No way. I don't buy it at all. The cops took Lois to the Kent farm where a spaceship had landed and then she yelled Clark to him.

I agree with you there. He needed to be stopped before he got bored with killing off humanity.

Lynn, what a great analogy. Thank you for sharing it!

My pleasure. And the funny thing is, the friend I was seeing the movie with has two kids on the autism spectrum, one of whom also has sensory processing difficulties. When I whispered something about "sensory integration issues," she immediately grokked what I meant and wholeheartedly agreed. I would guess that those two scenes would be considered relatively minor by most of the audience, but they are probably the two that will remain most vivid to me for some time to come. I've certainly done my equivalent of Martha's "imagine you're on an island" speech often enough.

Joy,
Lynn

One thing I didn't notice until the second viewing... most (the vast majority?) of the death and destruction was due to the World Builder, and Clark did the exact right thing to deal with that: He went to the other side of the world and destroyed the machine as quickly as possible. The fight in Smallville was mostly confined to the streets and freight yards, and the final battle with Zod was actually fairly short, and didn't involve a lot of (or any?) buildings collapsing -- condemned, probably, but with time for people to escape.

A silly question...

Was I the only one who half expected to hear the name "Luke" after "I am your father"?

Joy,
Lynn

Didn't even occur to me. And I'm a SW fan.


You know, someone else mentioned this about Zod, but my memory is a bit hazy on the details, so if anyone could confirm/deny, that'd be great.

Did he, indeed, order Kal-El's ship shot down/destroyed (rather than captured in some sense) when he learned the codex was on it? If so, wouldn't that have destroyed the codex and doomed Krypton's future? And if it wouldn't destroy Krypton's future (enough people/expertise on the planet to re-create it/create a better one), then why did it matter if Kal-El's ship escaped? Or you think he thought the codex would survive?

I liked the idea, as was pointed out elsewhere, that even if not for Jor-El, Zod's coup still would have failed. It took the authorities very little time to completely put down the attempt. Though I suppose he could have bargained with the codex, had he gotten it instead of Jor-El.

Leads me into another thought: it was my impression that the council had, indeed, accepted that Krypton was going to be destroyed by time we open up with Jor-El talking to them - what do you think? Am I misremembering? They would know Jor-El took the codex from their security system, and they know there is a child, but Lara seems not to be in any trouble? Do you think it is not illegal to have a natural birth? Do you think they couldn't pin her as an accomplice? Or did they simply decide it wasn't worth prosecuting or that they didn't want to panic the population by telling them the codex was gone (this would mean they didn't tell them about the planet being doomed, either).

I'm just not sure what I think. From the way Jor-El was talking about having held hope in his hands, I almost get the impression he was going to tell them about Kal-El and ask them for the codex, ask them to back his plan. But I can't remember the scene that clearly and may completely change my mind whenever I get the dvd and am able to watch it over and over again for the small details.

Where was this island speech? I don't remember it.

That feeling sounds familiar.

Little Clark at school, hiding in a closet. His teacher called his mother.

Right.

I think this supports the "Clark did some things to give himself a better chance to get a job as a stringer at the top newspaper" theory.

The film covers lots of time, they just do not in any way show the time going by.

It is when we see you Clark dealing with being overwhelmed by his senses and Martha comes to the school to calm him. I think that all is a flashback just after he recues the people on the oil rig.

Questions:

Question 1 - How many Kryptonian ships were there, anyway, and what happened to them? This is my count.

1) Clark's ship that took baby Clark from Krypton to Earth and ended up in the Kent barn. Its Phantom Drive was used to get rid of the bad guys. Outcome: destroyed.

2) Zod's ship. Sent back to the Phantom Zone with all hands (except for Zod). Outcome: off Earth and no problems for us anymore

3) The World Builder (which had been piggybacking on Zod's ship) - destroyed by Clark. Outcome: in shards? Or being taken by LexCorp to have all its Kryptonian technology dissected and analyzed?

4) The scout ship at Ellesmere Island that sent the distress signal that lured Zod to Earth. Did this ship get destroyed too? I thought it was going to be up there at the North Pole serving as Clark's Fortress of Solitude, with Jor-El as its AI. But am I mistaken? Did it really get destroyed, and is Clark now alone on Earth as the Last Son of Krypton, with no Kryptonian technology to back him up?

Question 2 - Dr. Hamilton and Col. Hardy either died or went to the Phantom Zone along with the Kryptonians, right?

Question 3 - Clark used a Phantom Drive when he was an infant. Why didn't he get pulled into the Phantom Zone along with the other Kryptonians?

Yup

Yup

Yup, and oh dear. Lex is bound to try and and get his hands on it. Although would Clark get rid of it before Lex had chance to set out any salvage operation?

This is the ship that Zod went to find knowing it had a Genesis chamber on in. Zod put his own comand key in it to overwrite Jor El then he flew it into the battle. He was attempting to shoot down Lois and Hamilton when Clark arrived after taking out the World Engine. It crashed into Metropolis with Zod still on board, which is why Zod wasn't pulled into the Phantom Zone.

So. It's in Metropolis. See previous answer. Lex will want it, but hopefully Clark will take it off someone first.

Yes, it does seem that Hamilton and Hardy have ended up in the Phantom Zone. Hardy wasn't dead at the point they actived the rift and Faora won't have the superpower advantage once they are in PZ so it's possible he's still not dead. Although what life is like in PZ and whether they can escape from the Kryptonians is unknown. Plus how with the Kryptonians behave without their leader?

When he was rescuing Lois it was a strugle to get away. You can see 'lightning' striking across his face as if he's being drawn in. So, if flying is strong enough to escape the PZ pull maybe some other Kryptonians escaped then? NOPE. All the others were inside their ship (and Faora in the plane) not able to set of flying before the gravity got them. Also, my husband pointed out yesterday (at our 3rd viewing) that Zod had to remove his armor before he finally figured out how to fly. It seemed to be interfering with whatever effect flight has on gravity. Faora and the other Kryptonions never flew once in the film, just leapt.

Suitable answers or not?

Zod said something about retrofitting the Phantom Drive on their ship for interstellar travel, and that Jor-El did the same thing to Kal-El's ship.

I haven't seen the movie yet, though my husband has. I'm always a little hesitant about watching new "superhero" movies, and I'd heard some bad things about this one. Mostly, the death toll in Metropolis and the killing-Zod thing.

I really didn't like the idea that Superman would be indifferent to civilian casualties. I get that it's spectacular to smash a city - Avengers did it, too - but at least in the Avengers, there was concern about the by-stander casualties. However, somebody upthread suggested that Superman couldn't move the fight away from the city, because the city wasn't the setting, it was the *target*. That would make more sense to me.

I think I'd like the Lois/Clark stuff - I do like the idea that she tracked him down & was in on the secret before there was a secret

So maybe I'd want to watch it if I could get the stupid parts snipped out <g> Mind you, that might make it a very very short film.

As for the origin story being common knowledge, yes and no. The broad overview is known. But if they want to change it up, which they obviously do, then I do think they need to explain that. And God knows the "Superman" character has changed a *lot* over the years, so they need to pick what works for them. Otherwise, some people would be expecting Christopher Reeve's version.

It's like the Star Trek reboot - they were making some major changes and that had to be explained - and that makes the new movies a lot more interesting, IMO. I think I'm looking at it from a fanfic writer's perspective - I love doing elseworlds, where I totally play with the background & circumstances, yet try to have the characters still recognizable.

For Zod's death, I do not blame Clark. Sometimes there are no other options, and it sounds like that was the case here. But I do blame the writers - they're the ones that set up the parameters to force this solution. And I've got to ask why they wanted to make Superman kill. It could be to lay the groundwork for a really interesting second movie, where Superman's working out his ethical limits, not just his physical ones. Or they could have just been doing it for shock value, and that annoys me. Go ruin your own icons, and leave mine alone.

PJ