Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Fun with Polls A Poll about the TOCs

This poll was posted after reading the responses I got on a post I place in the Message Boards yesterday. You can read my original post here.

I was going through the TOCs looking for older stories I hadn't read. The problem was, there was often no easy way to identify the Works-in-Progress (WIPs) from the finished stories.

I had an idea. What about using a specific Message Icon to indicate a story was Complete (either a vignette or a multi-part story that has been finished.)

I suggested we use the exclamation point inside the triangle, for example, to indicate Complete. (Right now, all the stories have a little note card icon.) Two counter-suggestions were made: that we leave the note card icon for Complete, and use a seperate icon for WIPs, or we use two new icons - one for WIP, one for Complete and leave the note card for older works, some of which are complete and some WIP. (Labrat posted some links showing there are actually other ways to determine if a story is complete or not.)

It also occured to me that one can, of course, go to the lcfanfic website and read finished gfics. Most of the nfics posted in the TOCs, however, are only available on these message boards.

So, what do you think?

Feel free to post with more explanations.

I chose the last option for the last question, because I'm not an author, and I figured the authors should choose if they want to go back and change ALL their fics, or just the WIPs, or just the Finished stories.

I realize now that when I wrote the answers for this last question, I should have separated this option from the one that says "I don't think it's a good idea". Well, if you pick this option, you can always come down here and explain which of the two you meant. (No opinion or Not a good idea.)

I voted other because I still think the only people who are going to realise what the icons denote - existing members and new members alike - are going to be those who happen to have read the thread explaining it. Unless a way can be worked out to explain the system somewhere easy to spot. Suggestions?

So I still think it would be much more useful to just mark the story as complete within the TOC itself.

LabRat

An explanation of the new icons could be put into one of the two FAQ lists for the site. (BTW, I've often wondered -- just why are there two separate FAQ lists?) Also, an explanation could be put in a moderator-generated thread that permanently stays at the top of the MB folder.

In another topic, I put down 'I don't know/other' as my vote for the nfic list. The real answer for me is 'I don't care, since I don't read nfic,' but that wasn't an option.

I'll be interested to see the outcome of the poll.

Joy,
Lynn

Yes, I considered both of those. But, you know, seriously who reads those things? In my experience stickying a thread is the best possible way to make it instantly invisible. I guess a sticky thread at the top of the TOC folders would be the best bet though, in the absence of any other possibilities. But I have my doubts as to how many people would notice or read it.

There are two separate FAQs, IIRC, because one is the general FAQ for the boards dealing with board-specific topics and the other is the one set up by the Admins, dealing with topics specific to FoLCdom and the rules of this particular forum.

LabRat

Ummm... Me?

My thought it is that if we have the new icons from here on in, it won't cause any major additional work for the posters on the TOC list, and that work would be voluntary -- if the posters forget or don't want to be bothered with changing the icon, their listing will still be finished-neutral - no harm done. Similarly, if anyone sees the different icons and has any curiosity whatsoever, they will be able to find the icons' meanings in a FAQ or sticky thread. And if they are oblivious to the icons - again, no harm done.

This may not exactly be a win-win solution, but it is at least a win-draw solution, with no losers anywhere.

Thanks for the FAQ explanation. I had pretty much realized that much; I guess my question is why the division. Is the general FoLC FAQ also used somewhere outside of the MB?

Joy,
Lynn

Absolutely.

I guess it just seems like an overly-complicated solution to the problem for me - it just seems so much simpler to put 'complete' in the TOC itself. Problem solved. Easy to spot, no need for additional explanation posts that may or may not be noticed and read, it's right there and self-explanatory. No need for further explanations at all.

But, definitely, as I said in the other thread, there's no harm in an icon system either, if people want to go down that route. It certainly doesn't cause any problems to do it that way, as you say.

IIRC, the general FAQ comes with the mbs package. It wasn't generated by the Admins, it's the standard FAQ that comes with the mbs.

LabRat

That is certainly easier. And I would not be against it at all. The flip side, though, is that a potential reader would have to open the thread to see whether or not the story was complete. With an icon, they wouldn't need to do that.

To be honest, I don't care a whole lot about this for myself -- I don't read nfic and I will either read a newer work here as it is being posted and will read the older works on the archive. I'm just making these suggestions for the benefit of those who use the TOC. Whatever is decided is fine by me.



<insert a graemlin of a light going on over a smiley face here> Aha! Now I understand! Thanks!

Joy,
Lynn

One of the problems with changing icons is that LabRat might have to do a lot of them. On the old stories, some of the authors are no longer with us and don't read this board any more.
I vote for just saying "Complete" on the TOC and "The End" or "fin" on the last chapter of the story.
IMHO readers swoop by the icons.

Artemis

At the moment, that's definitely something to factor into any future plans. It's only a second's work, so it wouldn't be any hassle in that sense and I certainly wouldn't mind doing it.

But I could never remember to use that darn blue arrow when posting a story and that was when my memory was firm and youthful, :rolleyes: so I'm highly likely to forget about them more often than I remember these days!

I'm definitely one of those people who is icon-blind. Not only do I never remember to use them, I completely fail to notice them when purusing posts and they barely register on my plane of existence.

Of course, there's nothing to prevent authors doing their own TOCS, if they want to ensure the icon is used. But if they don't and I have to pick up the slack, it's more probable that the only indicator will end up being my typing complete at the end of the TOC simply because it's the only one my increasingly decrepit memory can cope with.

LabRat

I voted 'other' on whether, as an author, I'd go back and change the icons. I probably would if this system was put in place, at some point but possibly not until I started up a TOC for a new story and tried to work out what symbol to use and then remembered that I hadn't updated my old ones. I think I'd much rather put a note in the TOC saying 'finished' or 'in progress' or something with future stories, but again it might take me a while to go back and write 'fin' my old TOCs. I don't tend to start posting until I have the whole thing written and a good proportion BRed anyway, so that I *don't* leave half-written fics on here. They're all hidden away on my laptop where you can't read them . I can honestly say that all my TOCs are for finished stories atm.

We could tack it at the end of the title, like:

It's Gonna Be A Bumpy Ride by Queen of the Capes - Complete

I like that! Simple and effective.

Joy,
Lynn

I liked this idea.

That would do very nicely.

My feeling is that if you're going to change something, the "complete" icon is probably the one to go for - that ought to be more managable for most people.

It would be VERY useful if the list of message icons you get when you post a message said what they represent, rather than the two rows of icons without an explanation we currently get.

Having said that, I think that putting "complete" into the header is probably enough, without playing "spot the icon".

The one problem I have with this new system is the definition of "Complete".

My Missing Lois epic is completed, finished, and I've written 'The End', ).

Do you see the difference in the word "completed" that I'm referring to?

I've heard some people they don't want to start reading some stories for fear that they won't ever be 'completed'. I started reading Trusting Me, Trusting You before I knew it was a WIP not a 'completed' story (and yes, it was very frustrating when I got to the last post and realized this, hence the "ARG!!!" in my FDK comments), but that didn't stop me from coming back and reading more.

I can also understand this as there are a few stories that simply seemed to disappear off the MB (still waiting for the Christmas Day post of Smallville, Nan -- no pressure ).

I will soon be posting an actual WIP 'Short' Story before I've finished writing it <<biting my fingernails, as I've never posted anything that wasn't "completed" before>> so it definitely have a ? after the part number. Probably (1/20?) as an estimate of how many parts I think it will take to write the story. Is this an accurate way to use the Parts indicator? Or would it better just to put (1/??)?

All right, my short note has gone on forever (now, everyone knows how ML ended up being so long ). Thank you for letting me vent.

No, in this context, complete would refer solely to a story which had been posted to the mbs in its entirety.

It's probably best to include a total parts no. - most readers like to have at least an approximate indication of how long or short a story is going to be. It's recognised though that this is going to be purely an estimate and that the total may well change as the story progresses, so you don't have to be laser accurate with it.

I've spotted a potential issue with any system, if I'm still going to be the one doing the majority of the TOC updates and that is I don't go into the story or comments posts when I update the TOCs. I just click on the post header and copy location. Which means that there's no way for me to actually tell when a story has been completed - unless it's in the header of the last story part. That is "Masques 20/20", for example.

Which would be another good reason to include the total part no., now that I think about it.

So authors would either need to do their own TOCs, or would have to make sure that there's an indication in the header of the final story part that it's the last part being posted or that the story is complete, so that I can transfer that information to the TOC update.

LabRat

What an interesting thread ! Who would have thought we could tell some much of something which should be simple.

Okay, so this my point of view. The icons is nice for TOCs and nfic TOCs, but the word COMPLETE is an excellent way to know at the top of the story. To be sure, we should add INCOMPLETE for the ones which are still on work.
The indication of part is nice idea, because some time we don't have time or patience to read of twenty parts story.

NB : As for the blue arrow, I find it really great, each time I'm connecting, I just have to catch a glimpse to read the new parts ! Very helpful !

I'm good with the "Complete" solution.

I confess I prefer the icon idea, just because it strikes me as a more 'elegant' solution. (Kudos to whoever first thought of using the "blue arrow" in the fanfics thread.)

Then again, part of the reason the blue arrow works so well is that it stands out, and perhaps the other icons (all of which are yellow) wouldn't be any easier to notice than a simple "Complete" next to the title.

The main goal was to identify complete stories from WIPs, and adding "Complete" does just that, so thank you to the admins and the authors for being so open to the idea. I appreciate it!

"Complete" sounds good to me. I also try to always list the parts of the story in text as well and update the TOC file with each new link. That way, someone looking at the TOC file can see that I am on Part 4 and that there are 5 more coming (but I always try to write the entire fic before posting the first part).