Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Fun with Polls Popularity and Feedback.

I JUST now got to this thread--though now that I saw it, I see what the discussion was on IRC the other night. I voted Other for both, and my explanation is below.

I don't think popularity is based on any one thing. I lean more towards quality, but then I'll have to also add in Kerths, not because of the award per se, but because they are advertising. Someone who only has time for so many might choose to check out a story that won a Kerth because it has to have some real quality to it to get the award. The names are familiar, then, to anyone who was at the ceremony, and so on the awareness level of that writer's work and existence grows. Personal attitude may have something to do with it, but I can separate that completely from what I read. There are people I've had good conversations with whose fics I'm not fond of, and people I've never talked to, or haven't gotten the greatest impression of, whose fics I really like. That said, my favorite authors still are that mostly because of the high quality of their work, and only partially because of the good impression I had of them. And due to the high quality of the work of many authors, my favorite authors stand out from the rest because of the type of stories they produce. I'll give an example: Wendy is one of my favorite authors not only because of the exceptionally high quality of her writing, and a tiny bit because she's a neat person, but also because her stories are so intense--I like them for what they make me feel, how I feel immersed in the world she's writing. They tend to be emotional, and several of them deal with my favorite premises for L&C fanfic. It's obvious, therefore, why I read her work whenever I see it--immediately.

As for fdk, that comes down to one thing: I am just plain BUSY. Trying to do too much all the time--mostly the problem is that I don't pay enough attention to real life, and too much to the Internet, so I am always catching up with what I *should* be doing. Thus said, I tend to focus more on activities for my enjoyment to the exclusion of anything that wouldn't be pure enjoyment (a bit selfishly). Giving fdk is not just enjoyment, for I do like giving it, it's also work, and most of the time I'm reading fanfic because I'm tired or I don't *want* to do what I should be doing. So that's really my fault. If the author's on IRC at the time I finish the fic, I will almost always say something to them, about whatever I loved about it. Some authors I started fdk-ing whenever they came on--going through all their fics and telling them why I liked each one. But anything else is too much work. I feel like in this fandom I have to say something more than "great story, PWMS!" And since I seldom, if ever, read fanfics on the board, and then only ones from my favorite authors 'cause I can't wait for them to be on the Archive, I rarely post fdk.

Reading isn't a problem, though. I read very fast, and except for cases of very poor quality, I've read up through the letter K on the Archive, and am now working my way through L when time permits. I keep an eye on the newly posted fics and read every one of those, whether I am fond of that premise or not (with a few exceptions). Again, I will probably not seek their fdk threads out on the board, or write an e-mail to the author, unless I was *really* moved by the fic. I just don't have time for it.

And there's my ramble on this subject . . .

/me stands up and nervously addresses the group

My name is Helga and I am a serial lurker.

I remember, way back when, being blown away Labby's first fics.

I post now though. Or at least I try too, time isn't always on my side. (Hence me being late to this particular meeting of FARCE).

I liked lurking, it was safe and cosy, and I thought there was enough life in this fandom that it didn't need little old me in there too. I didn't have anything to say that wasn't already being said.

There are two reason why I stopped lurking. The first I've already told before, but I'll tell it again, cause it was an important lesson for me:

(And I'm being really lazy here and copying and pasting from the original thread...)

About 4 years ago, as well as lurking here, I lurked on another email list as well, connected to an organisation I volunteer for. It is a very high volume list and lurking is acceptable there because the list was mostly for passing information on to people who needed it. However, there was a core group of people who posted regularly, and would frequently post off topic, which was also acceptable.

One of these members was pregnant and the baby was overdue, and whilst she was waiting to go into labour she sent a lot of emails to the group; several a day. She was getting more and more impatient, and everyone else sent her loads of messages of support and suggestions that might encourage the baby to show it's face anytime soon. There were a lot of old wife's tales being thrown around, and it was all lots of fun.

Then her emails stopped and she wasn't heard from for a while. I guess everyone assumed that she'd had the baby and was too busy enjoying being a mum to send an email. A few weeks later she finally did post, the baby had died a few hours after being born.

Then I suddenly realised why lurking was wrong. Through their emails I had got to know the people on the group well, but they had no idea who I was. And now I wanted to tell this person how sorry I was to hear about her baby, but I was a complete stranger to her. Would I make it worse for her if I did send a message? I was a stranger intruding on a very personal, private moment.

I didn't send an email in the end, I didn't want to take the chance that I could make it worse. As if it could be any worse. I still don't know if I did the right thing.

Well, I decided to stop lurking then.

Especially here... Lois and Clark was the first thing I looked up on the internet. I had been lurking online in the fandom for years. Since Zoom's boards were created I had got to know a lot of the people in the fandom, from their posts, their discussions and the fics they wrote. But none of them knew me from Adam. And aside from anything else, when I put it like that, it sounded a bit creepy. (And I don't want people who lurk to get upset about that, I'm not calling you creeps, and I know people have really good reason why they do it, it's just my take on things )

The second reason why I post feedback is because I get a huge amount of enjoyment out of fanfic, and the writers get very little in return. They're not professionals, this is their hobby. The very least I can do is let them know that I enjoyed reading the story.

And that's also why I try to read every story, and I'm not too bothered about quality of writing. Because people write for fun. This isn't school, I'm not going to pick apart their grammar and spelling.

I always say thank you when I give feedback. My Gran would be very proud

Time is an issue for me, and that's one reason why I usually only post feedback when the story's been completed.

I'll stop talking now. I've got a Reader's Choice Questionnaire to complete that's been sitting on my hard drive for two years.

Today I'm going for immersion therapy as part of my FARCE recovery plan...

Helga

Yes, late to this one, but I was otherwise occupied in Europe.

I do have a bit to say on this matter, though, so if you'll excuse me for being late...

I'll address the stuff more relevant to the poll first, then I have a bit to say about the popularity issue.

I have to agree with Wendy here. As most of you know, at times I spent a great deal of time on my feedback. I'd be far less likely to leave feedback at all if I didn't have any idea whether or not the author even appreciated it. That's not to say that I expect the author to give me such a detailed response, but I do have to say just a "Thanks, Sara" is really good to read.

I leave feedback for a few reasons.

1- I know that I appreciate (though can't say I expect) feedback when I write something, so I like to give that back to the authors when I read their stories.

2 - I've found I can't help it now. I like to feel as if I'm interacting with the author and/or characters as I'm reading. How can I not yell at Clark and call him a lunkhead when he does something stupid? How can I not tell Lois, "Don't worry! Trust him!! I promise it'll work out okay! "? And what I enjoy doing the most is letting the author know just how effective his or her writing is. I'll proudly snuffle, sob and grab the tissues when something hits me right in the heart. Shouldn't the author know that s/he made someone cry real tears (or even just coming close) when s/he put so much work into creating such emotions? Shouldn't the author know when the reader honestly laughed out loud (or nearly fell out of a chair )? Or how about that one sentence (or one of many) that an author writes and is just so darned proud of, hoping that it will stand out to someone else as well?

Well, that's just me. And now that I've veered dangerously off topic...

What I choose to read/watch and why:

I used to have the mindset of not reading anything until it hit the archive because, honestly, I was a little lost when it came to keeping track of all the different stories. And it was daunting to see so many. Not to mention the fact that I knew I'd have trouble keeping all the stories straight in my head.

Then came the day that I saw one of my favourite authors had written a sequel to one of my favourite stories. She wasn't finished with it and she was posting it on the boards to start with. I was a goner then.

Gradually, I got over my fears <g> and started reading the stories from authors that I knew I loved. I was disappointed once by an author that still hasn't finished the story, but other than that, I've been pretty satisfied in that department.

I'll be honest and say that I only read posted stories on the basis of who the author is and whether or not I've like his/her work in the past. I just don't have time to read them all. There are times when a title will catch my eye and I'll open that up and usually get sucked in. Other times, if my schedule allows, I'll open up the stories that are one part long, knowing that I can finish that easily and not feel committed to something longer. On occasion, I'll try to look at newer authors' work to help encourage more writers. I wish I had time for them all! (I'm still behind on even the Best New Author nominees for the past few years... *sigh*)

Another factor will influence whether or not I read a story on the boards - recommendations, usually from friends on IRC. I'm not usually disappointed by those, as my friends and I tend to share the same taste in stories.

One more factor... which I believe ties into the stigma of popularity that's been mentioned in this thread... I admittedly will tend to read stories written by friends. Not only for support, but also because, as I said earlier, we tend to share like interests in the types of stories that we read... which of course extends to the kind of stories that we write. This isn't always true. I can't say I'd read a crossover story written by a friend if I didn't have the time; I just don't care for them.

As for the popularity issue...

I'm one that's well aware of "in crowds", mostly from having been on the fringes and also completely outside of the realm of the "cool, popular" people. To be honest, I felt a little of that "clique" atmosphere when I first got to these boards. Well... hanging out for a bit longer, and getting to know everyone a little better, I find that's just not true. That clique feeling I got wasn't really what it appeared. What I realized was that there are hundreds of people on these boards and there are a few different groups of people that are fortunate enough to have found great friendships here in this folcdom. I count myself among those people and I'm grateful for it. If that makes me now part of one clique or another in other people's eyes, that's unfortunate, and I'm sorry if anyone feels excluded.

All I have to say about that is - if you want more folc friends, email someone who made a post or a video or story that you liked or agreed with. Helga made an excellent point. If you feel you're on the outside of a group, don't lurk. Be involved. This isn't to say that lurkers aren't cool. Not at all, but think of it this way: You can't be a wallflower at a school dance and complain that you never had any fun. Be proactive. (This coming from the insecure girl who did just that ). On the other hand, there are some that are perfectly happy watching everyone else dance.

TJ said this:

I can only speak from my observations on this one, but I don't think that's true. I sure hope my friends would respect me enough to be honest when giving feedback, and I believe they are. There's no point in posting feedback for your friends if you're just doing it to up their post count or what have you. It'd be as bad as telling your friend that she looks really great in a dress that's too small for her simply because your friend is proud of the 10 pounds she just lost. It isn't right, and I'd like to think better of our folcdom.

As for the "similar interests" you mention, I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Sorry for the late response, but this is an issue that still kinda bugs me.

Sara

This is where I feel that cliques are misunderstood. I think there are very few of us out there who don't get that feeling when they join a new forum. Or new group or new society or new club or whatever. It's an entirely natural thing and why it would be any different here on the mbs, I have no idea.

Obviously, if a group of people have been hanging out together for a long time they'll have amassed a shared history and it's a rare group that can keep that entirely out of the equation when posting.

When I first joined a Stargate forum, I was puzzled by constant references in posts to someone called Luke. There was no SG1 character called Luke that I was aware of. What the heck were these people talking about?

Did this make me feel out of some strange loop that everyone else was in? Of course. The solution? I asked what it meant. Turned out to be a character in one regular and well-known poster's fanfic. Mystery solved and I no longer felt on the outside looking in. Gradually, as I spent more time there, I felt less like the 'new girl'.

I think that experience is one that's also more than common. It would be a rare person indeed who didn't feel strange and awkward and out of step joining a new community. Most get over it naturally as time goes by and they grow into sharing that history with their fellow board members.

I think the important thing is how you react to new members who ask the questions. That's the only difference I really see around the net. There are forums who are incredibly mean to newbies - quite unnecessarily imo and that's something that really ticks me off when I see it happening. The ones who bark that this post is in the wrong place. Or who complain that this question has been asked ten times before and why didn't they read through 10,000 posts to check that before posting?

On these mbs, I think we've proved more than once in the past that generally speaking we treat newbies with respect and welcome. And that's the important difference for me. The thing that really matters. Making it easy for new members to ask the questions that make them feel less out of the loop without making them feel silly or that they're about to be jumped on.


LabRat

You know, the more I think about this the more offensive it sounds. Maybe you didn't mean it that way, TJ, but it's not just offensive to whichever writer you were talking about (and, trust me, you have dozens of writers wondering if you meant them ), but it's also offensive to everyone who posts feedback on these boards.

Speaking personally, I have never posted feedback I didn't honestly mean. I just couldn't - I find it impossible to say I like something if I don't. I've never been the kind of person who'll say she loves a friend's new outfit if I hate it. (That cost me a lot of brownie points with friends when I was a teenager. ). I'm too bluntly honest for my own good. Plus, if I raved about a story I thought was okay at best, sooner or later I'd get found out. I run into a lot of people on IRC. The author would ask me what I particularly liked, or ask my opinion of some part of the story. I couldn't keep up the pretence of loving it if I didn't.

I have a lot of friends in FoLCdom - people I consider my friends through chatting to them on IRC, exchanging emails with them and even meeting them. Recently, one friend posted a story after a long hiatus. It just wasn't the type of story to appeal to me so, even though I was delighted to see her writing again, I couldn't post to say I loved it because... I didn't. If a story doesn't appeal to me, I won't post feedback - once or twice in the past I've explained why a story doesn't appeal, but I'm never sure if authors want to hear that, and anyway, if lots of other people like the story just the way it is who am I to disagree?


I find it hard to believe that anyone else here would post feedback they don't mean, either. Life's too short; there are too many great stories to read to waste time raving about any which appeal less. Maybe what appears to be undeserved feedback is simply the consequence of different tastes? I've seen rave feedback on stories which don't appeal so much to me - all it means is that a story I don't care for really appeals to other readers. Just like movies I haven't liked are at the top of other people's favourites list. That's the way tastes work - and wouldn't it be boring if we all liked the same things?


Wendy

Then you should probably stop thinking about it. My thinking is that we've poked this dog to death, and it's not biting anymore.

TJ

Well, you know, the trouble with throwing stones into ponds (to change the metaphor) is that it makes ripples. And those ripples keep on going whether you throw in any more rocks or not. Simple physics. It does damp down after a while, of course (faster when everyone else stops throwing rocks, too *coughwendycough*), but... If you don't want to deal with the ripples, TJ, you might want to be more careful about throwing that first rock.

PJ

Requested emails were replied to, I don't know what else is required of me to "cool things down" as was suggested in the nKerth thread. Did you guys get said emails?

TJ/who's starting to think this continuance is a matter of getting the last word in, and, since I got my point said, is now officially concluding her posting on this poll topic for now and forever, so whoever comes next...it's all yours!! Enjoy!!

I know I'm coming into this topic pretty late, but I don't check the boards very often anymore and just happened to run across it today.

I don't really have any desire to address the "popularity contest" issue that is really what started the topic (sorry, MDL). But others have much more eloquently said my piece: every group has groups (note the plural - there is not only one clique within this or any fandom) within it. Cliques are not inherently evil. And I really do believe that the vast majority of readers (in or out of whatever "cliques" there may be) read the stories they like and leave feedback whenever they feel inspired to do so. That is just how it should be. No one is required to read anything. No one is required to leave feedback for any story - no matter how they feel about it. The point of all of this is supposed to be recreation. And I can think of no one who purposely leaves inflated feedback for "the cool kids" or refuses to leave feedback for "the uncool kids".

What I'm more interested in is the issue that LabRat brought up about feedback in general, when she said:

My perspective is a little different here, as someone who came into the fandom at a time when feedback was spiking at unprecedented amounts. When we first opened these boards (which was not long after I joined the fandom - and the world of fandoms in general), it seemed like feedback was coming in faster than we knew what to do with it. I was very lucky to have had some of my earliest stories bring in an amazing number of comments per section. I had started writing purely for my own entertainment, but once the siren song of feedback began, I couldn't resist the incessant clicking of the "refresh" button.

Then there was a slowing down. We settled into our new home and became less frantic. Feedback was still comparatively abundant, but not quite as abundant as it had been. And so I (and so many others) wondered if it was the quality of our work that was suffering. I began comparing the amount of feedback I got to the amount I'd received on previous stories, and then to the amount that other authors were currently receiving. Suddenly - through no one's fault but my own - what used to be fun, became stressful.

Eventually, I faded away from the fandom. (Just for the record, this had nothing to do with feedback <G>) My interests shifted to other shows and, for the first time, I began exploring other fandoms. And, for the first time, I really appreciated the incredible amount of unity in the LnC fandom. Our archive in unlike ANYTHING else out there. (Those of you who have never done so, please go check out some of the archives for other fandoms. Then come back and thank LabRat and Lauren and all the GEs and everyone else involved in the archive.) I was overwhelmed trying to figure out where to submit stories. And once I did, I was underwhelmed with the response I got. I went from receiving dozens of comments per section to a handful of emails for an entire story. I was quite discouraged and considered giving up writing for that fandom. And then I realized that I didn't want to quit. I liked the fandom, I liked writing the stories, and I although I cherished what feedback I did get, I didn't NEED it. Just writing it made me happy.

Since then I've moved on to yet another fandom or two. And in the last few months I've written one story and made at least half a dozen videos that I haven't submitted anywhere. I send them to friends who I think will appreciate them, and I watch them myself quite frequently. There are places I could submit them, and maybe someday I will. But for now, I'm quite happy enjoying them this way.

I discovered what Rat is talking about, the joy of creation for creation's sake. And it's very sweet.

I will always love this fandom for giving me my start and teaching me so many things about writing. (Not to mention all the wonderful friends I made.) But I have to say that I am almost glad to be writing for fandoms now that don't have such a great community, because now I do things entirely for my own edification. I certainly am not advocating everyone abandon feedback altogether - it's a wonderful thing. I just hope that everyone who feels neglected, will try to look past the lack of feedback and remember why the started creating in the first place.


Annie (who apparently decided that she would make up for months of silence by writing a ridiculously long post. My sincerest apologies.)

Well, I'm a lurker. Additionally, I don't see the dates on your posts or your avatars. I never look at the author, at least not until I read the first part of the story. I don't post feedback, because I'm still trying to build up the never and originally I planned that my first post would be a beta-request, alas, it didn't come to pass. Btw, I usually never read the FDK folders.
Authors I already read stories by are more likly to get picked up on archive updates, but on the board only the stories influence whether I'll continue reading or not.

Not responding makes me feel I bit guilty, too, since I do enjoy getting feedback myself, but L&C isn't my primary fandom and I'd rather put my energy into a fandom that is a lot less explored.
In the fandom I usually haunt I'm currently the most prolific writer, but feedback usually comes by two or three people, and currently even they don't say anything. I started writing because I didn't like the three or so stories available in my fandom. I didn't really get feedback to the first stories I wrote, although that might have been due to the fact, that the stories were up in English on a French site, while the oneswho actually would respond were all German (fandom is small you got to make do with what you have).
I made it a premise to write for me and not for the feedback and I want honest feedback, too. I once commented on a story and got told by another person that I shouldn't critique, because the author had struggled so to write something and would know better than I which words she wanted to use - I ran into three ambiguities on the first page alone - story is currently down for reworking (and the author of said story never even responded to our heated debate) Such things make me question feedbacks, it is nice to get 'Oh, my gosh, that's so great', but I saw this really big logical flaw in my story after posting, and nobody picked up on it. They all just cheered, I considered holding the story hostage till I got some negative feedback, the story couldn't have been that great.
I know that my stories get read, but I really would like to know whether people like them or whether they think the premise to outlandish. When I start to write, I had decided that the first kiss would come after at least 50,000 words and that I would write no next-gen stories (while the fandom didn't have the next-gens, it had the much to fast romances, that relationship can't be easy to resolve), well, within the first two hundred words I had not only implied that the two of them had slept together practically the show ended, no I also wriggled in a daughter. So much for good intention.
Feedback usually doesn't discourage or encourage me, it just sometimes gives me new ideas.
And I expect to get some feedback on my 10,000 words story, because parts of the fandom are really gentle and I'm not very nice with the story. (Okay, feedback does encourage me, I really do want to see what they have to say when they see the sequel to that story, it'll be even worse.)

So, I do like feedbacl, but I didn't write because of the feedback (unless I want to provoke a reaction), I usually try to post feedback (just not for L&C), and while giving feedback, I try to keep the author in mind, since some of them have to be treated more gently then others.


I have a few old videos, but nothing new; reasons: slow connection, no real interest in videos, enough other stuff to watch.

Greetings,
Chaos

Well, welcome, Chaos - and congrats on delurking. <g>

I found your post very interesting, but this in particular struck me:

Oh, I wouldn't necessarily draw that conclusion. Readers and feedback come in many variations and some of your more undemanding readers just won't care about plot holes at all. So you will get some who won't pick up on that kind of thing - it doesn't have to mean that your story is bad.

You might also want to consider that as your fandom is so small you're not getting a spread of feedback that would give you a better picture - for example if you had 30 readers offering fdk it's more likely that one of them would be the type of reader who would pick you up on a plot hole, whereas only getting two or three comments in total narrows the odds of finding a demanding reader. Also, from the rest of your post, it seems as though your fandom currently has a culture of not critiquing stories, but simply offering praise. A reader may have noticed your plot hole but been afraid to say so, for fear of provoking the same reaction you did.

Nor do plot holes necessarily mean a bad story. There are few authors out there who haven't, in the heat of the moment, sunk deep into telling their story, failed to see the wood for the trees and made some booboo. That's why beta readers - who usually point these things out before you embarrass yourself in public - are worth their weight in gold.

LabRat

Usually, I read here OR on the Archive. I used to just read the Archive; then I came to the boards for a while. Then there wasn't anything being posted at the moment that I really cared much about reading as soon as possible (sorry!), so I went back to just hitting the Archive every week. Then something was being posted (Nan's new Home story, I think -- the series that got me into fanfic, what can I say?) that drew me back to the boards and I started reading here again.... But since most things going to the Archive show up here first, now I'm back to not visiting the Archive.

And consequently didn't even notice there was a new MLT story. Hm.

Maybe authors who choose not to post story parts to the boards should instead post an announcement that they've got something new up?

As to feedback, I leave it if I've got something to say -- I'm usually quiet when I'm just reading and enjoying. Now, I'll post when something leaps out at me -- the nFic story where L&C had been making love every four minutes for eight years, and Clark couldn't figure out why Lois was tired, for example.