Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Fun with Polls *Sigh* It's About Commas

All right, I give. I consider myself an averagely smart person. And I always did very well in my English classes in school with a decent memory for what I learned way back then. But ever since I took up writing as a hobby-and-hopefully-more (and ever since I took up to hanging out with so many non-US English speaking and writing folks), my understanding of the correct usage of commas has been blown all to H, E, double hockey sticks.

So, here's a "Which one do YOU think is correct?" type of poll, which I'm hoping will give me some solid answers. Because I fully expect you all to explain why you chose what you chose, okay?

Oh, and please answer the questions as they relate to comma usage, not general writing style (because these are pretty basic sentences that I'd probably never really write but are good examples).

/me grumbles a bit because she thinks she's got some relearning to do.

Are we supposed to post our reasons here? I will, but I will give
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1. Clark ran his fingers through Lois's hair and whispered sweet nothings in her ear.
If there were more than two things he did, you need a comma.
Clark ran his fingers through Lois's hair, slowly stroked her shoulder and whispered sweet nothings in her ear.
2. Lois gasped with surprise and she giggled when his beard stubble scratched her cheek. This is the same as #1.
3. Clark slipped his arm around her waist and she closed her eyes in anticipation. Again, 3 things would need a comma.
4. After he kissed her Lois's eyes popped open in recognition. Superman! If the beginning clause was longer, you could use a comma. I think "both" would be a valid answer too.
5. I'm a bit of a comma freak, but I picked "It kind of annoys me but not enough to stop me from reading."

Artemis

The only example where you absolutely have to have a comma is number four:

The 'After he kissed her' is what's known as an introductory element, and a comma is always needed there.

I wouldn't bother with commas in the other examples; you have 'and' and you don't need a comma before 'and'. I'd only advise it if the sentence is complicated.

My favourite comma website , with lots of examples and quizzes to help you.


Wendy (who won't stop reading a fic containing masses of comma errors, but will pause and mentally insert/delete the relevant comma and thus gets a little jerked out)

2. Lois gasped with surprise, and she giggled when his beard stubble scratched her cheek.

3. Clark slipped his arm around her waist, and she closed her eyes in anticipation.

Well, the last paltry class I had on the English language was about 7 years ago, and it taught me for numbers 2 and 3 that those are compound sentences. So the commas are supposed to be there to separate the independent clauses. But heck, if it turns out that my private school teachers were wrong, I'm okay with that. <g>

JD

I learned that you had to put a comma before and if a 2nd subject was introduced, but if the subject was the same, it was optional. So it would be

She did, and he did

but it could be

She did, and she did
or
She did and she did.

If that makes sense.

But commas are not my friend. Perhaps they were filling my head with lies

I used to think I knew how to use commas. But then I spent years being beta-read and general-editored and having Erin type [DELETE COMMA] so many times I'm surprised she didn't break her keyboard, so now I'm back to being blissfully ignorant. Well, I do have a better understanding now, I suppose, but mostly I just let my betas and editors worry about it

PJ

Hi Shadow:
Alarm bells ring behind my eyes (talk about mixed metaphor) with the commas in #2 and #3. That is wrong. It's a compound sentence, true, but the comma is only required if there are more than two sections in the compound sentence.
But I took English in the stone age and the rules have relaxed since. (Compound sentence with only two sections, hence no comma )
There's another option on #2:
Lois gasped with surprise; she giggled when his beard stubble scratched her cheek.

Artemis

See, it's the compound sentences thing that is messing me up.

I was taught that if the two parts of a long sentence - the part before and the part after the "and" - are independent of each other, you must have a comma before the "and" regardless if the subject of the sentence is the same or if it changes:

Clark reached for Lois's waist. + Lois closed her eyes in anticipation. = Clark reached for Lois's waist, and Lois closed her eyes in anticipation.

AND

Lois gasped in surprise. + She giggled when Clark's beard stubble rubbed her cheek. = Lois gasped in surprise, and she giggled when Clark's beard stubble rubbed her cheek.

If the two parts of the sentences are not independent (cannot stand alone), you do not use a comma:

Clark ran his fingers through Lois's hair. + And whispered sweet nothings in her ear (not a complete sentence) = Clark ran his fingers through Lois's hair and whispered sweet nothings in her ear.

So those are the guidelines I always use when I put commas before the "and". However, I've recently noticed people leaving out the comma when I would think it necessary and putting one in when I wouldn't. Thus my confusion.

And Wendy, your remark is even more perplexing. Is what I was taught wrong - as in it was always wrong - or is it a difference between UK and US English, or is it perhaps just an update to the rules of grammar? I know that things do change, and it's quite possible I just don't have any idea what's now considered correct.

Lynn

1. No comma. I agree with those who said that if there were a list of three or more, commas would be needed. In this case, it's not a compound *sentence* -- simply a compound verb phrase.

2. Neither. Delete the second 'she'. 3. I would go with no comma (and thus voted no). Because...it looks wrong with it. However, according to my friend who is an *expert* in grammar (and can explain why, instead of saying "it feels right/wrong" like I do <g>), this one *is* a compound sentence and thus needs the comma. However, I would never put it in and would probably resist if an editor tried to add it. O:-)

(Note: She also said that I feel like the sentence here is bulky with the comma because the clauses are so short. If it were a longer, more complicated sentence, I would likely have no problem with the commas. Of course, I'd need a long example to be sure. <g>)

4. Comma. Without it, 'her' becomes possessive and it reads as if he is kissing 'her Lois'. Which makes no sense! :p

5. Comma usuage -- or rather, comma mis-usage, does annoy me to an extent. Especially when it's
rampant and clear that the author didn't even bother to *try*. Usually this is linked with poor tense usage, poor grammar, poor spelling, etc. A random comma (or lack thereof) out of place will not be enough to make me quit reading or disregard the author afterwards.

Bethy

According to every class I've taken and book I've read (none of which were very long ago since I'm only 23), the way Lynn explained it is exactly right. What Wendy said might be a difference between UK and US English, but as far as US English goes, see Lynn's post for a good explaination.

~Anna

Pam pretty much said what I would have. I can't get worked up about it and it's not something I constantly fret over as I type.

Nor would I let something so minor interfere with my reading. It's the plot that counts with me - a story has to be really riddled with more annoying errors than the odd misplaced comma to put me off.

What really amuses me these days though is that I see far more and more serious errors in published novels than I ever do in fanfic. Maybe we ought to start encouraging publishers to employ our wonderful editors.

LabRat

In case you want an ESL's opinion, here it is (I haven't read the other posts yet):

Question 1:
"Clark ran his fingers through Lois's hair and whispered sweet nothings in her ear." Comma and "and" don't go together.

Question 2:
Neither. It's not about the comma, though, it's that "Lois did sth... and she did sth else." I think that 'she' on the second sentence is not necessary. Otoh, if you really need to draw the attention to her (which seems pointless in such a sentence, but anyway) I think you should use a comma despite the 'and'.

Question 3:
Both. With comma, because the subjects of the two verbs is different. Without comma, because you've used an 'and.'

Question 4:
"After he kissed her, Lois's eyes popped open in recognition. Superman!" I have no reasoning for choosing this one, other than not using a comma makes it sound weird to me. <shrug>

Question 5:
"I notice goofs but it really doesn't bother me, especially if the writer is consistent." Besides, although I generally trust my insticts and my language ability, on some occasions I just can't be 100% sure.

When I write, I usually put a comma where I'd put it if I had to take a short pause while I said out loud the sentence. I've never had problems with my commas in Greek. Where English is concerned, though... it makes me wonder that I've never misplaced a comma in composition writing in English, but I sometimes do misplace them when writing fics.

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

Lynn, you are right on compound sentences. What I see is those examples don't fit the definition of "long." The basic rule of commas I was taught was that their use should make the sentence clearer. There are sentences in literature that are an entire paragraph long and desperately (Desperate Sentences?) to make them understandable. When I have time today, I'll take a look at "Eats, Shoots and Leaves" and see what Lynne Truss has to say.
Bethy, you are right. I didn't see that.

Artemis

Replying to Lynn and Anna: I'm actually quoting US rules - from that site I linked to. The principal difference between US and UK English on comma usage is in lists - the so-called 'serial comma'.

The website I linked to states that one use of a comma is to:

I believe that this is what your first three examples refer to, Lynn. They're not complex compound sentences; you only have two clauses.

The author of the website - a professor of grammar - goes on to say:

This is exactly the logic I was using. I actually answered that both were correct - with and without comma. And my post above only talks about where a comma is absolutely necessary. I didn't say that a comma is wrong in examples 1-3. Personally, in those examples I'd omit the comma, but only because the sentences are short enough and the meaning clear enough for the comma to be superfluous.

As Darling comments later on the same page:

So in my own writing I wouldn't use a comma in examples 1-3; I wouldn't, when GEing, recommend that an author remove a comma in these examples unless there were already a lot of commas in the surrounding sentences, or the two clauses were already part of a longer sentence containing essential commas.

But, actually, my experience as a GE (and a reader of a lot of published fiction) has shown me that most incorrect comma usage relates to parenthetical phrases, otherwise known as non-essential clauses.

For example:

With a blue spine is a non-essential clause. Leave it out and the sentence still makes sense. Non-essential clauses must be set off with a comma before and after, or, if the sentence is simple enough to allow it, have no commas at all. But what I see is writers including one comma and not the other.

Example:

There must be a comma after however as well as before it. Again, this is explained on Charles Darling's website, linked to above.

But the examples you've chosen, Lynn, apart from example 4, really aren't anything you need to worry about. If your instinct is to use a comma, then that's correct according to Darling. The main thing is that you be consistent.


Wendy

Edited because, as Sheila points out below, I made a mistake in my example about the book.

I can't help it. I teach English grammar, and comma faults disturb me even when I overlook them. In English, the general rules are as follows:

Do not use a comma before the coordinating conjunction when joining compound elements in a sentence (subjects, verbs, objects, prepositional phrases, etc.), except when the compound elements are independent clauses. Thus, Lynn's first example, "Clark ran his fingers through Lois's hair, and whispered sweet nothings in her ear," would be correctly written without the comma since it is compounding verbs: Clark ran ... and whispered. The lack of comma tells us that both actions were done by the same subject.

In the case of compound independent clauses, the comma alerts the reader to the fact that one clause is completed and what follows the coordinating conjunction (for, and, nor, but, or, yet, so) is part of a new clause, and therefore a new sentence idea rather than a piece of the old one. That's what Lynn's next two examples are: "Lois gasped with surprise and she giggled when his beard stubble scratched her cheek" and "Clark slipped his arm around her waist and she closed her eyes in anticipation." Both sentences should have a comma before the "and," although some publishers or employers will accept the lack of a comma since each independent clause is relatively short. However, I teach my students the more restrictive grammar rules because they are correct no matter who the reader is.

Lynn's last example was a complex sentence, which contains a dependent and an independent clause. When the dependent clause starts the sentence, it is separated from the independent clause by a comma because there is no other cue word to indicate that the first clause has finished and another begun. Thus, the example sentence should read, "After he kissed her, Lois's eyes popped open in recognition. Superman!" with the comma after "her" to let the reader know that the first clause is finished. However, when the sentence starts with the independent clause, a comma is not necessary since the subordinating conjunction or relative pronoun that begins the dependent clause provides the cue to the reader that the initial clause is finished and another is beginning. Lynn included an example of that in her compound-complex example: "Lois gasped with surprise, and she giggled when his beard stubble scratched her cheek." Notice that there is no comma in front of "when" since the subordinating conjunction itself tells the reader that a new clause is starting.

Wendy is absolutely correct about the use of commas with restrictive and non-restrictive phrases, especially with the problem of only using one comma on a non-restrictive phrase. However, her example is incorrect. In American English, we don't set off prepositional phrases with commas, no matter how non-restrictive they are, and so: "The book with the blue spine lay open on the table." OTOH, I would use commas to say, "The English book, which has a blue spine, lay open on the table."

The most important thing to remember about commas is that they separate sentence elements, not join them. Since I read so many sentences from my students with major mechanical and grammatical errors, I overlook lots of minor comma faults. But I still hate reading sentences with commas in places that separate important sentence elements that belong together or sentences with nothing but a comma between the independent clauses (comma splices, a kind of run-on: Sister Zoe would encourage her class, Miss Fletcher would discourage her class).

Okay, have to amend my previous post, because I've just spent the afternoon reading a novel by one of my favourite authors and the amount of times I've had to pause, frown, and try and figure out what the sentence meant because there were no commas in it and the first four times it made no sense...well, if I had a penny...

Still can't wholly claim that it irritated me, but they were very confusing before the 'aha' moment and did jerk me out of the story several times before I figured them out. :rolleyes:

It was kind of like one of those puzzles where it looks like a confusing jumble and then suddenly it all comes together in a totally different way and you see the picture.

So, whereas it's still not a huge issue for me, I've come to a greater appreciation of the humble comma today, at least. <g>


LabRat

Oops! Sheila, you're right: my example was wrong. What I'd intended to write was:

The book, which had a blue spine, lay open on the table.

The sentence I actually wrote doesn't need commas at all. I'll go back and amend it, with a note to explain that I did.


Wendy