Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Fun with Polls Kerth Epic Category -- Stay or Go?

In the Kerth Awards, should the Epic category -- currently for stories 400K and above -- be eliminated, and these stories allowed to compete in Drama and Relationship without regard to size? (Or said another way, should we take off the size restriction on Drama and Relationship, and get rid of the Epic category all together?)

I'm not sure if I'll be voting in this poll, since I don't write epics and don't often read them (I've been reading shamefully little lately). I wanted to ask, though... Can you refresh my/our memory on the numbers?

1. How many epics are there this year?
2. How many long stories (100-400k) are there this year?
3. How many epics were there last year (or in the last couple years, if you have more numbers handy)?
4. How many long stories were there in previous years?

I think looking through some statistics would help me, at least, get a better handle on how "useful" the category is.

Also... writers of longer stories: This question seems to affect you most of all. I'd like to hear your thoughts. Would you resent having your long stories compete against epics? Would you rather have your epics treated like more "regular" stories? How does the idea strike you?

Finally, just to add a little more confusion to the mix... Would it be better to adjust the limits? For example, we could, perhaps, broaden the definition of "mid-length," expand the number of mid-length categories, and then absorb epic into the "long" categories.

No, wait. I lied. That wasn't the "final" thing. The final thing (I think) is a brief and perhaps irrelevant point. Does anyone else like having the symmetry of a special category for super short and a special category for epic?

Paul

Paul, let me see if I can help with the statistics. We get a spreadsheet of eligibles every year, and I usually have a printout sorted by size, so let me look through my files.... I may not have the exact numbers, as I print them out before the "official" list, but it should be close.

1. How many epics are there this year?

10

2. How many long stories (100-400k) are there this year?

30

3. How many epics were there last year (or in the last couple years, if you have more numbers handy)?

2004 -- 11
2003 -- 13 (>400k), 8 (>500k) (the cutoff was 500k)

4. How many long stories were there in previous years?

2004 -- 47
2003 -- 43 (100-400k), 48 (100-500k)

I didn't do the size-sorted printouts before 2003, apparently, though it's possible I still have the spreadsheets rattling about on my hard drive somewhere.

Hope that helps

I will mention, we're thinking that if we end up dropping Epic, we'd bring back Long Revelation in its place.

And I hadn't thought of the super short/epic symmetry, but I do like it now that you've pointed it out...

PJ

Well, since currently no one (that I know of and I'll be delighted to be corrected) seems to have overtaken Masques as longest story on the Archive (and shame on you all for that! Why the heck not?!?" ), I kind of feel obliged to add my two cents.

I voted for losing Epic. For no other reason than I kind of prefer categories that are about themes and story elements (Original character, Best Lex story, Best WAFFy, whatever) than length.

For me, a story is a story is a story. If it's good and enthralls me as I read, it doesn't matter to me if it's 10k or 600k. It's content, not k count that matters for me.

LabRat

I wrote an epic this year.

Or I'm pretty sure I did, can't remember the exact length of it.

(And, you know, if it isn't and mine doesn't qualify as such, just don't tell me. It certainly felt like an epic- the writing and the posting of it.)

And it's absolutely fine by me if the category is dropped due to lower numbers.

About the lower numbers, though. Long stories and epics are my favorites. Seems to me some of you have been slacking- not writing your fair share. Consider this a blanket nag that covers all of you and get busy, people!

CC- who just wanted to see if she could write an epic once, and will never, ever, ever, ever, ever do it again. Short and sweet from here on out, that's my motto...

Actually, I change my vote. If you bring back long revelation, then I am totally for dropping epic . I must not have read too carefully before I voted. And if you bring back series . . . I'd be very, very, very happy.

- Laura

Okay, I confess. I'd like to see the epic category abolished. And (I think) I'm one of the people Kathy was thinking about when she said the KComm had had suggestions that epic should go.

Why do I want to see epic go?

Well, speaking from personal experience, I worked very hard on the A-plot of Extraordinary Man II. I tried to write something with a satisfyingly complicated plot, with action and suspense... and at the end of the day, it was too long to be considered a drama.

Okay, I should be proud and grateful that people liked EMII enough to nominate it in the epic category (and I am grateful). However, I couldn't help feeling that epics are rewarded for being long, rather than for the themes they explore. Having it considered to be a good drama would have meant that much more to me.

To some extent, I can understand why people would think it unfair that a 100kb story should compete with a 700kb one. Some stories are happy being just 100kb long; that's all they need. Others, though, are 100kb but leave you wanting to know more. The plot may be too ambitious for their length. Where's the detail, the depth or the description that would have made them wonderful? It is these latter kinds of stories that should be put in direct competition with the 'epics' of this world. (And, no, I can't think of any examples of a 400kb story busting to get out of a 100kb-straight-jacket, off the top of my head.)

Also, not wanting to devalue the triumph of getting onto the epic ballot or anything, but isn't it easier for a story to get onto one of five slots for epic than to get onto one of five slots for drama or alt-/elseworld? (I don't know how many stories were eligible for these last year, so I don't know. I'm just throwing this question out there.) In the spirit of competition, wouldn't keeping the numbers of eligible stories in each category up be a good idea?

As for the restoration of Long Revelation: I am not to concerned about that, one way or the other. By the time a story gets to be a certain length, the revelation becomes just one part of it, rather than the whole focus.

From the way the numbers are coming out here, I suspect people will want to see the epic stay. If that is the way the vote goes, then fair enough. I'm just grateful for the issue to have been aired and to have been allowed to have my say. Thanks, guys.

Chris (who has surely said too much and hopes she hasn't made herself too deeply unpopular be getting onto this particular soap box)

Well, I voted for epics to go. Yes, a few years ago, the category was definitely required as there were quite a few very long stories, and there were so many stories between 250 and 500 k that K-Com needed to lighten the drama and relationship categories. This year, though, there are only 10 epics. I'm not sure 10 stories justifies a category.

Apart from that, I also agree with Chris that fanfics, especially *long* fanfics, which take so much work and involvement from the author, might be better off being judged on their content than their length. As a reader and voter, between a 250k story and a 700k story, I'll choose the one that moved me most (and I did that a few years ago in another category and went for the 250k fic, btw).

If I get this right, if you get rid of epic, you take out the size limit on drama and relationship, and you bring back long revelation? Well, I'm all the more for it. Drama... well, it's hard for a story to be a drama without being long, although I imagine there must be exceptions. Relationship has its short counterpart with Waffy. Revelation, though, can be either short or long. So I'd be all for either taking out the size limit on Revelation, or else re-creating a Long Revelation category.

Just mho.

Kaethel

I'm totally with Chris on this one. As she says, it probably sounds ungrateful, but Epic has always felt to me like an award for simply writing lots and lots of words. By contrast, I've always coveted the Drama award most highly because it seems to value the things which make up a good story. It used to frustrate me that long stories which were consummate dramas were excluded from the category.

Yvonne

Well, I also voted to eliminate Epic. It's not so much that there are really fewer epic-length stories than in the previous years (based on Pam's numbers), but the pool of 100-400K stories that they will be competing with is 25% smaller, therefore, as Kae pointed out, the category doesn't really need to be thinned out.

To address the point that some are making about epics being rewarded more for being long than anything else...
Well, I certainly admit that it was easier for an Epic to get a slot on the ballot, as Chris pointed out. But looking at the Kerth listings on the Archive, the category is called "Best Epic Drama". And therefore I, at least, always used to view it based on the same criteria that I used when making my nominations/casting my vote for "Best Drama". Yvonne mentions "the things which make up a good story" seemed to be considered more important in selecting "Best Drama" than "Best Epic Drama", but not in my view.

Kathy

Hey, that's interesting, Kathy! I never noticed the full title of the category before. Thanks for pointing it out.

Yvonne

Since I'm the one who voted to keep Epic (and the only one, at this point) I'd kind of like to try to explain why I voted this way. And since I'm not 100% sure of my decision, I reserve the right to change my mind.

I know a lot of people don't have time to read really long stories. This is especially the case when people (quit looking at me) find themselves in a crunch trying to read all stories in order to vote for Kerths. As such, if I'm reading the stories in the "Drama" category and one of them is a 700K/350 page epic, I might not be able to finish it. And if I don't finish all of the stories in a particular category, I don't think it's fair to judge in that category. Make any sense?

That being said, I agree with Yvonne that it is a disappointment as a writer to have your story dis-eligible for the Drama category because it happens to be really long.

Is it possible to lower the threshold for "epic length" to something lower and divide the Best Drama category into more sub-categories? Best Drama Under 300K and Best Drama Over 300K? Something like that? Then those who don't have time/inclination to read really long stories can still vote on shorter dramas and the epics can be lumped into Drama and compared with stories somewhere closer in length.

Lynn

Hey, is that allowed? Isn't that against the rules or something?

LabRat

Hi,

I was all for voting to delete 'Epic' category, as I have to say I've always felt in agreement with Chris.

However, like Yvonne, I didn't realise that the true title category was 'Best Epic Drama', which does seem to change the argument.

Perhaps it's the name 'Epic' which is wrong, because I've always associated that with grand scale novels and movies.

Other categories have been divided into short and long, so perhaps the Drama section should just be divided into lengths such as Lynn suggests and renamed.

Just my tuppence worth, and I doubt it's worth even that.

Yours Jenni

I didn't vote because I don't pay a lot of attention to categories. It seems to me that story length depends on how many words it takes to tell the story properly. I never know how long my stories will be when I start writing and have never intentionally set out to write for a particular category. What seems unfair is to eliminate stories from categories because they are too long. Does the fact that they are long automatically give them an edge in the voting over shorter stories? If that's true then perhaps they should be in their own category.

Personally, I don't read extremely long stories often, because I find that they are frequently cumbersome and filled with words for the sake of length rather than for the sake of story telling. My interest is in reading a good story told well regardless of how long it is.

Bottom line, keep the epics or eliminate them as the readers desire.

Jude

Yeah, what Yvonne said.

Just an update for everyone ...

As of Wed, Jan19, the voting results were basically tied between keeping epic and doing away with it. Thus the Kerth Committee has made an executive decision and reversed itself on the list of categories for the 2005 Awards.

The Drama and Relationship categories have had their size limits removed, and the Epic category has been eliminated (at least for this year; if we get an influx of super-long stories in the future, we might bring it back). We have also decided to fill in that "empty slot" on the category list with the Long Revelation category.

If people want to continue to vote/discuss the topic on this thread, that's great, but I wanted to let everyone know how much we appreciate the votes and the discussion so far and that we have made our decision for the 2005 Awards.

Thanks, everyone, for your feedback!

Kathy

Missed this poll entirely, but would have voted to eliminate Epic too even though a story of mine won that category last year. Ironically, until K-com changed the size criteria for Epic last year, my fic would not have been eligible for Epic, and in fact, it was the shortest story among those nominated. It only just seemed like it was way too long. <g>

I never really thought my story was an "Epic' because it didn't deal with large themes and events and was not a story which took place over an extended period of time (in fact, just slightly under two weeks ) I always thought of it as a Relationship / Revelation story. Nevertheless i was thrilled that it won!!

c