Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Fun with Polls Do we need to take Christ out of Christmas?

Before we start, yes, this is another Christmas poll.

I think we are all adults here or near adults, so I expect people to be polite.

I am interested in hearing everyone's side, but I don't want this to break down into a slam-fest.

If possible, post links to sites that support your views.

Hrm. Interesting topic. I'm curious to see how everyone responds.

The reasons *why* I celebrate Christmas goes a bit beyond just religious reasons. I've always celebrated Christmas. It's a major part of the year that I look forward to. I throw myself into it whole-heartedly, and enjoy it with enthusiasm. It's a time of joy and giving and happiness, and sometimes we all really need that. (Okay, so thinking of it as an extended birthday doesn't hurt, either )

As far as the last question goes, I was a bit mixed on it. Should City Halls have nativities? No. For one, they have different faiths working there, and are government offices. Should they not decorate then? No, if they want to decorate, then go right ahead, but leave nativities to the churches and personal homes. Even if they do fight over whether or not Baby Jesus should be put in the manger before Christmas. But that's a whole other debate.


Now, as far as Christmas parades go, most of the ones I've seen are a bunch of organizations getting together, and while there may be a theme, each group has control over what they do. I have nothing against religious floats in a Christmas parade. (As long as they toss me candy, I'm happy) Let the individuals do what they want.

I think this poll is crazy and political and can only cause division. I do have strong opinions on this subject -- especially regarding the separation of church and state -- and I will not belittle your opinions as a fundamentalist Christian, nor will I expect you to belittle my opinions, so I have deleted the long post I originally had intended. I think this poll crosses the line of separation of politics and the forum as well as separation of church and the forum.

- Laura (a Christian (Catholic), for the record)

Even before our Constitution was written the colonies were founded for religious freedom. In particularly Rhode Island. Now because a minority has started jumping up and down with the ACLU leading the way all my religious freedoms are in jeopardy. Well I have decide that I don't give a damn what the Supreme Court decides. I will display religious scenes if I choose, I now wear my cross on top of my clothing and I say the pledge putting extreme accent on the phrase ONE NATION UNDER GOD.

I will walk down the street at Christmas Time singing or humming religious carols. I will wish each and everyone of you a Merry Christmas. By that I'm not trying to hurt you. But I am Christian and in saying Merry Christmas I'm simply trying to wish you the JOY I feel at this time of year. If you want to wish me a Happy Hanukkah or Happy Kwanza or whatever go head. My head won't spin around and fall off. So stop acting like yours will if I display and live my religious beliefs.

Those that are supporting the outlawing of the display of Christian symbols don't realize they could be next. Orthodox Jews wear facial hair and the long curls by the ears. That could be outlawed. The turbans and veils of Islam could be next. All forms of clothing that is religious in nature could be outlawed.

I don't try to tell others to believe in God or not. I don't try to tell others how to believe if they do. Stop trying to tell me. If people would be tolerant the world over like our founding fathers wanted us to be the world wouldn't be in the mess it is. If I am wrong correct me but it seems to me that an underlying theme in most religions is the fair, just treatment of all. As a human being whether you believe in God or not that should be a belief. We need to start acting that way - treat your fellow person the way you would want to be treated and stop trying to regulate their beliefs and the displaying and living of those beliefs.

One last thought. (Having worked in the hotel busines 20+ years) When it came to the Christian Holidays I have seen those that profess not to believe in them the first in line to have them off and yelling the loudest about it. Why because its a holiday and I shouldn't have to work it or my boyfriend or girlfriend celebrates. Then they also insisted on getting their holidays off with pay as well. You can't have it both ways - you can't insist that we don't have rights but you demand yours. If you are going to take off your religious high holy days (which means someone else has to work their regular day off). Then allow us to have our high holy days and you work them. Seems the rest of you believe that you can have your cake and eat it too but Christians don't even get bread and water.

I'm really not trying to offend anyone but I have just gotten tired of being told what I can and can't do in this country by non-Christians. Yet they turn around and do as they please.

Again I'm not trying to offend or hurt buy I just had to get this off my chest.

Amen, Kmar! I'm with you.

And incidentally, Separation of Church and State is NOT in the Constitution .

However, my father told me it's in the *communists' constitution*, from when they had the Soviet Union and stuff.

It's amazing isn't it, all this fuss about Christmas being politically correct.

It's not meant to be politically correct, it's a holiday - more than that, it's a religious holiday.

*delete delete delete*

That's all I'll say.

Please Laura, post your post! I want this to be an exchange of ideas, which is why I stated

I really want hear what the other side thinks.

I also ask that people don't argue with other posters, just post links to sites that support your positions.

James

I am a Christian, so I answered 'Yes', I celebrate Christmas, and what I celebrate is the birth of Jesus Christ.

As to Christian decorations, displays, etc. on public property, I have an interesting story. While back, I was having a conversation with my mother (who has VERY strong anti-Christian sentiments). She was upset b/c the schools were putting up "inspirational sayings" on the classroom walls. There were quotes from the major religions (Judeo-Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, etc.) as well as from people like Ben Franklin.

My mother was furious, b/c she saw this as an attempt by Christians to "get around" the separation of church and state. She said it was just a sneaky backdoor way to put the 10 Commandments up on the classroom walls!

As a Christian, I thought that was ridiculous. But you know, if there had been some quote from a Wicca sect espousing Satan worship or what-have-you, I probably would have preferred taking them all down rather than allowing that up.

So, my answer is, as much as a nativity scene warms my heart, I'm OK with having it at my home and not at City Hall.

- Vicki

The poll, as posted, is extremely biased. Talk about putting words into people's mouths! So many of the options are given the worst possible spin! *shakes head sadly* Really doesn't mesh with your claim that you want to hear "the other side."

But I'll assume that you've merely used poor phrasing, and really are interested in hearing other views.



I don't celebrate Christmas because I don't believe Christianity to be true -- but I have enough respect for the faith of my Christian friends that I would NEVER phrase that as the poll option did!

I don't believe religious symbols (of any religion) belong as part of government-sponsored parades or displays. So I say no to City Hall nativities -- but if the bank (or church) across the street wants to have one, go ahead.

You asked for links. Here\'s one.

I said no for the first question.

question number two: no, because i am muslim.

question number three: I can't tell anything about it because I simply don't live in the US.

Good discussion... personally, I get annoyed when Christian symbols are deemed off-limits. Seeing a menorah doesn't offend me, why should seeing a manger offend anyone? I wouldn't be too happy with a Wiccan thing, as someone postulated, but I'd just roll my eyes and move on; that's what tolerance means.

Christianity is a big part of America's cultural history; something like 90% of Americans identify themselves as Christians. (I was reading about it earlier; if I find the link, I'll post it) This is a democracy, right? So what 90% of the people think should be given some consideration. I understand it's important for the government to treat all religions equally (trust me, the last thing I want is a theocracy), but merely displaying symbols or singing songs is *not* promoting a theology. Neither is teaching historical facts, like the religion of our Founding Fathers.

Anyway, when I wish someone a Merry Christmas, I'm just saying that I want them to be happy. What's offensive about that?

PJ
(Merry Christmas, y'all!)

Found some links... there's an article about the whole phenomena, in the LA Times . (You have to log in to read the articles, use this site to get username/passwords that will work)

A quote:
"The district does not approve of religious symbols — a category in which it includes Santa Claus — in classrooms or on hallway bulletin boards, he said. Its Christmas programs are now called "Winterfest" celebrations."

Kicking my holiday (holy day) out of public life altogether tends to make me cranky. And seriously, banning Santa Claus?

More commentary with lots of links is here and here . The first few lines of the second one won't seem relevant, but keep reading.

PJ

Here are a few recent articles on the issues from WorldNetDaily that might be of interest:
State-imposed atheism,
and Apartheid humanism,
and Childhood\'s end,
and A case of collective projection,
and finaly Without apology, Merry Christmas!.


Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all!

Frank

Yes Rivka maybe it gets a little much but you live in a country where the majority of the population is Christian. You have to just ignore it and live and let live.

But you can also try embracing some of the beauty and meaning of Christmas without celebrating Christmas. I'm 50 when I was a young teenager we moved to New Jersey from Virginia which was my first exposure to the Jewish faith. My father had a business associate who had a Holiday party. Sitting beautifully displayed was what one might at first think was a Christmas Tree. However on closer inspection there was a beautifully made sign declaring it to be a Hanukkah Bush. When my father questioned him about it he said he enjoyed the beauty of what was called a Christmas tree. Since his children were little he (despite his family's objections) had Santa "visit" them. He didn't feel the myth of Santa was religious and that it was such a joyous thing for children. So from well before Hanukkah till after Christmas he displayed his Bush, his Mennorah (sp) and celebrated the beliefs of his religion and the joy of childhood.

I think many people including myself would do well to follow his example and embrace the joy and diversity in all of us.

(For once) I agree with Rivka. Every word. (Except that I can't vouch for the link, which I haven't opened.) The poll is very slanted. Assuming it was an attempt at humor or something, I voted as best I could.

I did the research on percentages last year when writing a rebuttal to a very slanted and somewhat offensive article in the local paper. (My rebuttal did not get printed, but at least I tried...) The numbers vary depending on who's asking whom (people can be reluctant to identify their religion on the census, and voluntary religious surveys can have funny demographics based on who's willing to respond), but it's somewhere around 85-90%.

The thing is, though, that this country was founded by religious minorities. Quakers and Puritans, although Christian, were maginalized and sometimes even persecuted because their beliefs didn't match up with the majority. They risked everything they had to take a journey across the ocean to a mostly unknown land because they wanted to live in a place where that wouldn't happen.

Now, I'm not saying we should do away with Christmas. By no means. And there's plenty of Christmas around, from decorations on houses and streets and buildings to music on every radio station and in every store to themed movies and TV shows (complete with Christmas-oriented ads) to just about anything else you can name.

I also don't mind getting into the "holiday spirit" of warmth and celebration. The lights are beautiful, too. And yes, I know several jews who put up lights in one form or another.

I don't think it's too much to ask to have at least gov't property clear of Christian decorations and messages. Either that or have something for everyone (which is almost impossible).

I can say that I feel swamped with Christmas wherever I go. I can't turn around without seeing some other bold proud reminder that the majority is celebrating a holiday that has nothing to do with me (and which, in my religion, is technically celebrating blasphemy).

I try not to be grumpy about it. I don't go yelling at people or making comments (unless, as here, the subject is brought up directly). I'm happy that you're enjoying it (if you are enjoying it rather than just feeling the pressure of needing to prepare and buy gifts and deal with the rampant commercialization). When someone wishes me a "Merry Christmas" instead of "Happy Holidays," I just grin and wish them a "Happy Channukah."

I'd just rather have it shoved a little less forcefully and constantly into my face that the other 85-90% has a holiday coming up sometime in the next 6 weeks. It's kind of excessive. Telling me to just go along with it isn't very considerate, either.

As for celebrating the beauty and meaning, as Kmar suggests, I think that's what this thread is about. I like the beauty. I like the meaning. I think we can all get together over pretty lights and a time to be happy and nice. If we're all going to do it, though, it should be in a way that we can all participate. In other words, in a secular fashion. Multi-colored lights. Signs that say "Happy Holidays." Non-demoninational decorations. The sort of thing that we, as a socieity, have been slowly gravitating towards, and that some people are complaining about here.

Now, you're welcome to be more religious in and around your own house and with your friends and family. But when you involve the rest of us, I'd apreciate it if you'd make at least some effort not to leave us out.

The ideals of this country aren't based on "whatever the majority says goes." They're based on trying to include (or not to exclude) as many people as possible, whether they're part of the majority or not.

By all means, have Christmas. Enjoy it to the fullest. Just don't tell me that I have to have it, too.

Paul

*applauds* Exactly, Paul.

And kmar, I hope you won't take this the wrong way, but the idea of a "Chanukah Bush" makes me physically ill. Chanukah is about holding on to our Jewish beliefs in the face of assimilationist pressure. The terrible irony of someone "celebrating the beliefs of their religion" in this way . . . well, it hurts. That's not what embracing diversity means in my book.



Now, does that mean I think people should not celebrate Christmas. Absolutely not! And if they wish me a Merry Christmas, I will usually just smile and wish them a happy holidays (especially if it's some poor salesperson who can see that I'm Jewish (it's the yellow star that gives it away ) and gets flustered). I appreciate the good will, regardless of how it's phrased.

Which reminds me! Pam, I keep forgetting to email you and thank you for the sweet card. I should give you my current address, too. My forwarded stuff comes in clumps every few weeks. (I think the PO hoards it . . . not sure WHY. )

Well, I'm not American, so I voted in the last question of the poll as if it was for my country, where Church and State are *definitely* separate.

But I do celebrate Christmas. I was born in an Atheist family, I'm Agnostic myself, and I never considered Christmas a Christian holiday - what helps, I think, is that in French, "Christmas" is "Noel", which is a word that has no religious conotation.

You might be aware that my country is very, very careful with religion at school, yet all schools put up Christmas trees and celebrate Christmas. We tend to consider its origin as pagan rather than Christian. Many French Muslims celebrate Christmas. The only thing is, we don't build up Nativity Scenes, and yes, I'm one who would be against the idea of a Nativity Scene at City Hall: you can never display stuff from every single religion, and one is bound to feel left out if you display the "main" ones only (how do you decide which religions are the main ones anyway?). So my idea of freedom of choice clashes with the idea of (any) religion being officially displayed in political places.

Just my .02.

Kaethel

Virgin has this commercial where they celebrate Christmas, Hannukah, and Kwanzaa simultaneously. I love their idea of inclusion and hope that one day all religions will be recognized and respected. My spouse and I have reared our children to respect all religions as different pathways to the higher power. We've found that approach gives us both a base and an inner peace without negating or insulting the beliefs of others.

I'm with Kae here... and maybe that's because we're European.

I'm not a Christian, my parent's are Christain, but by nature of my birth I was bought up in 'Christian' country. It's traditions, holidays, and values have roots in Christianity. So you can't escape it really.

I celebrate Christmas, not because of Christ, but because it's a time for my family and friends, and to celebrate the year and so on... and in that sense I think it goes back beyond Christianity to pagan beliefs. The food, the gifts, the tree, the decorations, the companionship - these don't really have anything to do with Christianity really. Not particularly. And I don't see why anyone can't get involved with these things. I don't think anyone would be really offended by these.

But this year, by nature of my new job (which involves working with people from different faiths) and my new housemate, who's Jewish, I've had a bit of a different perspective on Christmas, and in fact a lot of things we do in the UK.

Sure, Christians, or those from a Christian background, are still the majority in this country. But, and here is the biggy, some of the things we do, whilst we think we are being inclusive, are actually exclusive. And this is wrong.

Like having an employee's Christmas lunch, with free wine on the table. Why not make it an end of year celebration, and find some other way to show your employees you care than plying them with alcohol?

Yes, we are the majority, but with that comes responsibility. And that means recognising that the religious parts of Christmas can exclude people.

And if we are excluding people, aren't we going against the whole meaning of Christmas in the first place?

Helga

Well said, Helga! Inclusion and tolerance should be what we're all about, and especially at this time of year - at Christmas, for those of us who are, however vaguely, of the Christian faith or tradition.

Like Rivka and Paul, I did think that the options in the poll could have been worded better, James. If I were Jewish or Hindu or Muslim, I would not feel happy about selecting an option saying that I am 'not into that Jesus crap'; that shows disrespect for your religion in exactly the same way, if not worse, than the in-your-face Christian message of Christmas appears to for some.

Paul said:
See, I'd far, far rather wish you a Happy Channukah than Happy Holidays! And it has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with simply hating the expression 'Happy Holidays'. I always have, ever since I first heard it in an American song. To me, it's meaningless - I'm not going on holiday. This is a time of festival, not a 'vacation'. So I won't say 'happy holidays', and that has nothing to do with not respecting anyone else's religious traditions.

I have a Muslim friend and, when I remember to check when Eid is (which I forgot to do this year ) I send her an Eid e-card when I send other online friends Christmas e-cards.

Incidentally, in the UK and Ireland, some Christmas cards - which look the same as other non-overtly-religious cards, with trees and snow and robins and presents and so on on the front - carry the message 'Season's Greetings'. It's never occurred to me before, but I wonder if that was intended as a more secular alternative?

A belated Happy Channukah, Paul, Rivka, Julie and anyone else of the Jewish faith who is reading this!

Happy Kwanzaa to anyone who celebrates it.

And a very Merry Christmas to those who celebrate it, too.


Wendy