Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Fun with Polls Do we need to take Christ out of Christmas?

Before we start, yes, this is another Christmas poll.

I think we are all adults here or near adults, so I expect people to be polite.

I am interested in hearing everyone's side, but I don't want this to break down into a slam-fest.

If possible, post links to sites that support your views.

Hrm. Interesting topic. I'm curious to see how everyone responds.

The reasons *why* I celebrate Christmas goes a bit beyond just religious reasons. I've always celebrated Christmas. It's a major part of the year that I look forward to. I throw myself into it whole-heartedly, and enjoy it with enthusiasm. It's a time of joy and giving and happiness, and sometimes we all really need that. (Okay, so thinking of it as an extended birthday doesn't hurt, either )

As far as the last question goes, I was a bit mixed on it. Should City Halls have nativities? No. For one, they have different faiths working there, and are government offices. Should they not decorate then? No, if they want to decorate, then go right ahead, but leave nativities to the churches and personal homes. Even if they do fight over whether or not Baby Jesus should be put in the manger before Christmas. But that's a whole other debate.


Now, as far as Christmas parades go, most of the ones I've seen are a bunch of organizations getting together, and while there may be a theme, each group has control over what they do. I have nothing against religious floats in a Christmas parade. (As long as they toss me candy, I'm happy) Let the individuals do what they want.

I think this poll is crazy and political and can only cause division. I do have strong opinions on this subject -- especially regarding the separation of church and state -- and I will not belittle your opinions as a fundamentalist Christian, nor will I expect you to belittle my opinions, so I have deleted the long post I originally had intended. I think this poll crosses the line of separation of politics and the forum as well as separation of church and the forum.

- Laura (a Christian (Catholic), for the record)

Even before our Constitution was written the colonies were founded for religious freedom. In particularly Rhode Island. Now because a minority has started jumping up and down with the ACLU leading the way all my religious freedoms are in jeopardy. Well I have decide that I don't give a damn what the Supreme Court decides. I will display religious scenes if I choose, I now wear my cross on top of my clothing and I say the pledge putting extreme accent on the phrase ONE NATION UNDER GOD.

I will walk down the street at Christmas Time singing or humming religious carols. I will wish each and everyone of you a Merry Christmas. By that I'm not trying to hurt you. But I am Christian and in saying Merry Christmas I'm simply trying to wish you the JOY I feel at this time of year. If you want to wish me a Happy Hanukkah or Happy Kwanza or whatever go head. My head won't spin around and fall off. So stop acting like yours will if I display and live my religious beliefs.

Those that are supporting the outlawing of the display of Christian symbols don't realize they could be next. Orthodox Jews wear facial hair and the long curls by the ears. That could be outlawed. The turbans and veils of Islam could be next. All forms of clothing that is religious in nature could be outlawed.

I don't try to tell others to believe in God or not. I don't try to tell others how to believe if they do. Stop trying to tell me. If people would be tolerant the world over like our founding fathers wanted us to be the world wouldn't be in the mess it is. If I am wrong correct me but it seems to me that an underlying theme in most religions is the fair, just treatment of all. As a human being whether you believe in God or not that should be a belief. We need to start acting that way - treat your fellow person the way you would want to be treated and stop trying to regulate their beliefs and the displaying and living of those beliefs.

One last thought. (Having worked in the hotel busines 20+ years) When it came to the Christian Holidays I have seen those that profess not to believe in them the first in line to have them off and yelling the loudest about it. Why because its a holiday and I shouldn't have to work it or my boyfriend or girlfriend celebrates. Then they also insisted on getting their holidays off with pay as well. You can't have it both ways - you can't insist that we don't have rights but you demand yours. If you are going to take off your religious high holy days (which means someone else has to work their regular day off). Then allow us to have our high holy days and you work them. Seems the rest of you believe that you can have your cake and eat it too but Christians don't even get bread and water.

I'm really not trying to offend anyone but I have just gotten tired of being told what I can and can't do in this country by non-Christians. Yet they turn around and do as they please.

Again I'm not trying to offend or hurt buy I just had to get this off my chest.

Amen, Kmar! I'm with you.

And incidentally, Separation of Church and State is NOT in the Constitution .

However, my father told me it's in the *communists' constitution*, from when they had the Soviet Union and stuff.

It's amazing isn't it, all this fuss about Christmas being politically correct.

It's not meant to be politically correct, it's a holiday - more than that, it's a religious holiday.

*delete delete delete*

That's all I'll say.

Please Laura, post your post! I want this to be an exchange of ideas, which is why I stated

I really want hear what the other side thinks.

I also ask that people don't argue with other posters, just post links to sites that support your positions.

James

I am a Christian, so I answered 'Yes', I celebrate Christmas, and what I celebrate is the birth of Jesus Christ.

As to Christian decorations, displays, etc. on public property, I have an interesting story. While back, I was having a conversation with my mother (who has VERY strong anti-Christian sentiments). She was upset b/c the schools were putting up "inspirational sayings" on the classroom walls. There were quotes from the major religions (Judeo-Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, etc.) as well as from people like Ben Franklin.

My mother was furious, b/c she saw this as an attempt by Christians to "get around" the separation of church and state. She said it was just a sneaky backdoor way to put the 10 Commandments up on the classroom walls!

As a Christian, I thought that was ridiculous. But you know, if there had been some quote from a Wicca sect espousing Satan worship or what-have-you, I probably would have preferred taking them all down rather than allowing that up.

So, my answer is, as much as a nativity scene warms my heart, I'm OK with having it at my home and not at City Hall.

- Vicki

The poll, as posted, is extremely biased. Talk about putting words into people's mouths! So many of the options are given the worst possible spin! *shakes head sadly* Really doesn't mesh with your claim that you want to hear "the other side."

But I'll assume that you've merely used poor phrasing, and really are interested in hearing other views.



I don't celebrate Christmas because I don't believe Christianity to be true -- but I have enough respect for the faith of my Christian friends that I would NEVER phrase that as the poll option did!

I don't believe religious symbols (of any religion) belong as part of government-sponsored parades or displays. So I say no to City Hall nativities -- but if the bank (or church) across the street wants to have one, go ahead.

You asked for links. Here\'s one.

I said no for the first question.

question number two: no, because i am muslim.

question number three: I can't tell anything about it because I simply don't live in the US.

Good discussion... personally, I get annoyed when Christian symbols are deemed off-limits. Seeing a menorah doesn't offend me, why should seeing a manger offend anyone? I wouldn't be too happy with a Wiccan thing, as someone postulated, but I'd just roll my eyes and move on; that's what tolerance means.

Christianity is a big part of America's cultural history; something like 90% of Americans identify themselves as Christians. (I was reading about it earlier; if I find the link, I'll post it) This is a democracy, right? So what 90% of the people think should be given some consideration. I understand it's important for the government to treat all religions equally (trust me, the last thing I want is a theocracy), but merely displaying symbols or singing songs is *not* promoting a theology. Neither is teaching historical facts, like the religion of our Founding Fathers.

Anyway, when I wish someone a Merry Christmas, I'm just saying that I want them to be happy. What's offensive about that?

PJ
(Merry Christmas, y'all!)

Found some links... there's an article about the whole phenomena, in the LA Times . (You have to log in to read the articles, use this site to get username/passwords that will work)

A quote:
"The district does not approve of religious symbols — a category in which it includes Santa Claus — in classrooms or on hallway bulletin boards, he said. Its Christmas programs are now called "Winterfest" celebrations."

Kicking my holiday (holy day) out of public life altogether tends to make me cranky. And seriously, banning Santa Claus?

More commentary with lots of links is here and here . The first few lines of the second one won't seem relevant, but keep reading.

PJ

Here are a few recent articles on the issues from WorldNetDaily that might be of interest:
State-imposed atheism,
and Apartheid humanism,
and Childhood\'s end,
and A case of collective projection,
and finaly Without apology, Merry Christmas!.


Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all!

Frank

Yes Rivka maybe it gets a little much but you live in a country where the majority of the population is Christian. You have to just ignore it and live and let live.

But you can also try embracing some of the beauty and meaning of Christmas without celebrating Christmas. I'm 50 when I was a young teenager we moved to New Jersey from Virginia which was my first exposure to the Jewish faith. My father had a business associate who had a Holiday party. Sitting beautifully displayed was what one might at first think was a Christmas Tree. However on closer inspection there was a beautifully made sign declaring it to be a Hanukkah Bush. When my father questioned him about it he said he enjoyed the beauty of what was called a Christmas tree. Since his children were little he (despite his family's objections) had Santa "visit" them. He didn't feel the myth of Santa was religious and that it was such a joyous thing for children. So from well before Hanukkah till after Christmas he displayed his Bush, his Mennorah (sp) and celebrated the beliefs of his religion and the joy of childhood.

I think many people including myself would do well to follow his example and embrace the joy and diversity in all of us.

(For once) I agree with Rivka. Every word. (Except that I can't vouch for the link, which I haven't opened.) The poll is very slanted. Assuming it was an attempt at humor or something, I voted as best I could.

I did the research on percentages last year when writing a rebuttal to a very slanted and somewhat offensive article in the local paper. (My rebuttal did not get printed, but at least I tried...) The numbers vary depending on who's asking whom (people can be reluctant to identify their religion on the census, and voluntary religious surveys can have funny demographics based on who's willing to respond), but it's somewhere around 85-90%.

The thing is, though, that this country was founded by religious minorities. Quakers and Puritans, although Christian, were maginalized and sometimes even persecuted because their beliefs didn't match up with the majority. They risked everything they had to take a journey across the ocean to a mostly unknown land because they wanted to live in a place where that wouldn't happen.

Now, I'm not saying we should do away with Christmas. By no means. And there's plenty of Christmas around, from decorations on houses and streets and buildings to music on every radio station and in every store to themed movies and TV shows (complete with Christmas-oriented ads) to just about anything else you can name.

I also don't mind getting into the "holiday spirit" of warmth and celebration. The lights are beautiful, too. And yes, I know several jews who put up lights in one form or another.

I don't think it's too much to ask to have at least gov't property clear of Christian decorations and messages. Either that or have something for everyone (which is almost impossible).

I can say that I feel swamped with Christmas wherever I go. I can't turn around without seeing some other bold proud reminder that the majority is celebrating a holiday that has nothing to do with me (and which, in my religion, is technically celebrating blasphemy).

I try not to be grumpy about it. I don't go yelling at people or making comments (unless, as here, the subject is brought up directly). I'm happy that you're enjoying it (if you are enjoying it rather than just feeling the pressure of needing to prepare and buy gifts and deal with the rampant commercialization). When someone wishes me a "Merry Christmas" instead of "Happy Holidays," I just grin and wish them a "Happy Channukah."

I'd just rather have it shoved a little less forcefully and constantly into my face that the other 85-90% has a holiday coming up sometime in the next 6 weeks. It's kind of excessive. Telling me to just go along with it isn't very considerate, either.

As for celebrating the beauty and meaning, as Kmar suggests, I think that's what this thread is about. I like the beauty. I like the meaning. I think we can all get together over pretty lights and a time to be happy and nice. If we're all going to do it, though, it should be in a way that we can all participate. In other words, in a secular fashion. Multi-colored lights. Signs that say "Happy Holidays." Non-demoninational decorations. The sort of thing that we, as a socieity, have been slowly gravitating towards, and that some people are complaining about here.

Now, you're welcome to be more religious in and around your own house and with your friends and family. But when you involve the rest of us, I'd apreciate it if you'd make at least some effort not to leave us out.

The ideals of this country aren't based on "whatever the majority says goes." They're based on trying to include (or not to exclude) as many people as possible, whether they're part of the majority or not.

By all means, have Christmas. Enjoy it to the fullest. Just don't tell me that I have to have it, too.

Paul

*applauds* Exactly, Paul.

And kmar, I hope you won't take this the wrong way, but the idea of a "Chanukah Bush" makes me physically ill. Chanukah is about holding on to our Jewish beliefs in the face of assimilationist pressure. The terrible irony of someone "celebrating the beliefs of their religion" in this way . . . well, it hurts. That's not what embracing diversity means in my book.



Now, does that mean I think people should not celebrate Christmas. Absolutely not! And if they wish me a Merry Christmas, I will usually just smile and wish them a happy holidays (especially if it's some poor salesperson who can see that I'm Jewish (it's the yellow star that gives it away ) and gets flustered). I appreciate the good will, regardless of how it's phrased.

Which reminds me! Pam, I keep forgetting to email you and thank you for the sweet card. I should give you my current address, too. My forwarded stuff comes in clumps every few weeks. (I think the PO hoards it . . . not sure WHY. )

Well, I'm not American, so I voted in the last question of the poll as if it was for my country, where Church and State are *definitely* separate.

But I do celebrate Christmas. I was born in an Atheist family, I'm Agnostic myself, and I never considered Christmas a Christian holiday - what helps, I think, is that in French, "Christmas" is "Noel", which is a word that has no religious conotation.

You might be aware that my country is very, very careful with religion at school, yet all schools put up Christmas trees and celebrate Christmas. We tend to consider its origin as pagan rather than Christian. Many French Muslims celebrate Christmas. The only thing is, we don't build up Nativity Scenes, and yes, I'm one who would be against the idea of a Nativity Scene at City Hall: you can never display stuff from every single religion, and one is bound to feel left out if you display the "main" ones only (how do you decide which religions are the main ones anyway?). So my idea of freedom of choice clashes with the idea of (any) religion being officially displayed in political places.

Just my .02.

Kaethel

Virgin has this commercial where they celebrate Christmas, Hannukah, and Kwanzaa simultaneously. I love their idea of inclusion and hope that one day all religions will be recognized and respected. My spouse and I have reared our children to respect all religions as different pathways to the higher power. We've found that approach gives us both a base and an inner peace without negating or insulting the beliefs of others.

I'm with Kae here... and maybe that's because we're European.

I'm not a Christian, my parent's are Christain, but by nature of my birth I was bought up in 'Christian' country. It's traditions, holidays, and values have roots in Christianity. So you can't escape it really.

I celebrate Christmas, not because of Christ, but because it's a time for my family and friends, and to celebrate the year and so on... and in that sense I think it goes back beyond Christianity to pagan beliefs. The food, the gifts, the tree, the decorations, the companionship - these don't really have anything to do with Christianity really. Not particularly. And I don't see why anyone can't get involved with these things. I don't think anyone would be really offended by these.

But this year, by nature of my new job (which involves working with people from different faiths) and my new housemate, who's Jewish, I've had a bit of a different perspective on Christmas, and in fact a lot of things we do in the UK.

Sure, Christians, or those from a Christian background, are still the majority in this country. But, and here is the biggy, some of the things we do, whilst we think we are being inclusive, are actually exclusive. And this is wrong.

Like having an employee's Christmas lunch, with free wine on the table. Why not make it an end of year celebration, and find some other way to show your employees you care than plying them with alcohol?

Yes, we are the majority, but with that comes responsibility. And that means recognising that the religious parts of Christmas can exclude people.

And if we are excluding people, aren't we going against the whole meaning of Christmas in the first place?

Helga

Well said, Helga! Inclusion and tolerance should be what we're all about, and especially at this time of year - at Christmas, for those of us who are, however vaguely, of the Christian faith or tradition.

Like Rivka and Paul, I did think that the options in the poll could have been worded better, James. If I were Jewish or Hindu or Muslim, I would not feel happy about selecting an option saying that I am 'not into that Jesus crap'; that shows disrespect for your religion in exactly the same way, if not worse, than the in-your-face Christian message of Christmas appears to for some.

Paul said:
See, I'd far, far rather wish you a Happy Channukah than Happy Holidays! And it has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with simply hating the expression 'Happy Holidays'. I always have, ever since I first heard it in an American song. To me, it's meaningless - I'm not going on holiday. This is a time of festival, not a 'vacation'. So I won't say 'happy holidays', and that has nothing to do with not respecting anyone else's religious traditions.

I have a Muslim friend and, when I remember to check when Eid is (which I forgot to do this year ) I send her an Eid e-card when I send other online friends Christmas e-cards.

Incidentally, in the UK and Ireland, some Christmas cards - which look the same as other non-overtly-religious cards, with trees and snow and robins and presents and so on on the front - carry the message 'Season's Greetings'. It's never occurred to me before, but I wonder if that was intended as a more secular alternative?

A belated Happy Channukah, Paul, Rivka, Julie and anyone else of the Jewish faith who is reading this!

Happy Kwanzaa to anyone who celebrates it.

And a very Merry Christmas to those who celebrate it, too.


Wendy

I found this on the net and just had to share it.

StrangerHood: Holiday Wishes

It's from a new online series called "the Strangerhood," which spoofs reality shows and sitcoms. It's really funny!

Since this topic primarily pertains to Christmas in the US, this post is written from that point of view.

To me Christmas is about the children. It's in watching my son's face as he opens his gifts on Christmas Eve (in the Swedish tradition on my wife's side, Christmas is always celebrated on the Eve). It's in knowing that I gave someone something nice. But yet there are many who are trying to turn "Merry Christmas" into a political hot-potato. I, personally, am an agnostic with an agnostic wife, two kids who don't even know religion exists, and with two parents who are recent born-again Buddhists.

As Jonah Goldberg, a Jew with an Episcopal mother, put it in his latest opinion piece, the minority have to be as tolerant of the majority as the majority is of their beliefs. Yet that is increasingly not the case in this country. All in the name of being "not offended", we are all forced to tread on eggshells, afraid if a well-intentioned "Merry Christmas" leads to an attack of intolerance. Tolerance needs to be a two-way street. Why should Christians always get the short end of the stick?

As for public displays of Christmas trees, nativity scenes, Santa Claus, or just the words, "Merry Christmas," I have no problems with that. In no way do I believe the government is trying to establish a religious theocracy. Yet nobody seems to have problems with menorahs or other religious symbols appearing. Only the Christian ones are under attack. Are people so uncertain of their own faith that they equate these displays to the thousands of years of religious persecution that has gone on in history?

Any day now, I expect a lawsuit by the chief intolerants, the ACLU, to force a ban on Christmas as a national holiday. It made me happy to see all those people singing Christmas carols outside of the ACLU's offices in Washington, D.C.

Beyond the public displays is what's going on in the rest of the country. Federated Store employees are forbidden from saying, "Merry Christmas" as are Macy's employees. Kids are forbidden from singing Christmas carols. Target stores ban the Salvation Army kettles. Floats are banned from parades because they have nativity scenes. None of those have anything to do with the separation of church and state. Is this intolerance really what we want to teach our kids?

What also concerns me is that we are losing our history. Text books are increasingly being changed to dismiss our founding fathers and to show political correctness. Fewer and fewer young ones know just why we celebrate Independence Day. Thanksgiving's history is being distorted to shine more favorably on the natives. How many people know that Veterans Day was originally a celebration of the end of World War I, known as Armistice Day? How many young ones know that Presidents Day was originally two separate holidays, George Washington's birthday (Feb. 22) and Abraham Lincoln's birthday (Feb. 12)? Instead we watered it down and celebrate Herbert Hoover and William Henry Harrison on the same day as we honor Washington and Lincoln. Kids these days don't even know what those two great men did.

To turn Christmas into a secular holiday, even though it is one to me, is a disservice to our children. Regardless of whether you believe the story of Mary and Joseph, it is important to know why Christians honor that event in their celebration of Christmas. It gives insight into the very founding of our country by very religious people.

As I said, it's all about the kids.

Well said, Roger.

I also found this editorial in the Boston Globe -- A Jew Says "Merry Christmas" .

Rivka, I checked up that Jew FAQ you linked to -- that was really very interesting, so thanks for posting. (And for the record, I had heard about Purim. Didn't really remember what it was, but I'd definitely heard of it.) But that guy who says he gets hassled for not celebrating Christmas sounds to me like he lives in a tough neighborhood -- we've lived in our current house 12 years, and I don't think we've put up any outside Christmas decorations ever. We usually travel for Christmas -- most years we don't even bother to put up a tree. And I've never had anyone question me about it.

I do sympathise about the pressure for the kids to have Santa, though. As a fairly religious person, at first I wasn't really comfortable with the idea of telling my kids about Santa. When they find out there's no such person, they might start wondering about those other invisible people I've talked about -- like God. But it would have been very very hard to keep Santa out of the picture; my husband's family is all secular, and give Santa presents every year, even when it was just us grown-ups We've ended up compromising -- some presents are from grandparents or other relatives (this year, I took the kids shopping to pick out gifts for their dad), and those go under the tree whenever we get them. But then, some others are from Santa and don't show up til Christmas morning.

So from my perspective, Santa is secular, not religious. It was rather startling to hear that some districts are getting rid of Santa altogether. A creche is obviously religious, but Santa? That's a stretch.

PJ

I've enjoyed reading the various links, but the Santa Claus part surprised me, too, Pam. In our household, Santa, Rudolph, and elves are just as religious as the Easter Bunny, the tooth fairy, and the Great Pumpkin (okay, so I always liked Charlie Brown ). They just aren't religious symbols. I like driving through town and seeing all the beautiful lights, though.

I knew about Purim since the last chapter of Esther explains why it is celebrated on one day in the city and another day in the country, so I wasn't surprised to read that Chanukah isn't "a very important religious holiday. The holiday's religious significance is far less than that of Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, Sukkot, Passover, and Shavu'ot. It is roughly equivalent to Purim in significance" (http://www.jewfaq.org/holiday7.htm).

Nonetheless, I always thought of Chanukah as the Jewish equivalent of Christmas--not because of the reason the holiday was celebrated, but in terms of the secular add-ons of feasting, decorating the home, and gift-giving. After all, in Christianity, Christmas is of less religious significance than Easter, but that has nothing to do with the secular celebration, which is huge for Christmas and fairly small for Easter. So I'm sorry if I got that completely wrong.

Anyway, Paul and Rivka, some of us Christians feel the same way about the relentless pushing of Santa and Rudolph and Frosty the Snowman and buy-buy-buy, spend-spend-spend that seems to be the main message of Christmas in America. But at moments I feel more of the spirit of love and joy when strangers smile instead of scowl, say "Merry Christmas" instead of pushing rudely past, empty their change into the Salvation Army pots, and deliver Christmas dinners to poor people.

And did I mention that I like the pretty lights?

I've always had the notion of believing that holidays such as Christmas and Easter have become way too commercialised and taking away the true meaning of those two important events in the Christian calender. Christmas because it is the birth of our Saviour and Easter of course his death and resurrection.

Okay I am guilty of receiving presents and eating Easter eggs but they were not part of why we celebrate these two holidays and it saddens me to see that people are so caught up in that rush to find the perfect present without stopping to think about the true meaning of it.

I know that in today's multicultural society that many don't celebrate it because it isn't part of what they believe in and that is fine with me too, but I think that Christainity has been the subject of a lot of bad press lately and I firmly believe that there is nothing wrong with displaying the Nativity scene anywhere just like people display Christmas trees.

See, this is what happens when you take a perfectly good word -- a compound of 'holy' and 'day' -- and make it mean something else. Silly Brits.

*runs*




*giggle* With the exception of Yom Kippur all Jewish holidays involve "feasting"! Chanukah actually does less than most, for while there are special foods (latkes and sufganiyot (potato pancakes and filled donuts)), there is no special meal. Most of the other holidays have one -- even Yom Kippur has a special meal on its eve.

I applogize for the wording of some of the 'options'. I admit that this poll is part serious, part tongue-in-cheek, part holiday stress of cranking out 8 photo calendar for various family members for gifts, and mostly a reaction to various comments made by both secular radio and Christian radio, most of it along the lines of Pam's links.

I have loved the comments made by the participants and have been surprised by some.

Thanks for your input, but don't let this post stop y'all. Please continue.

James

Speaking as a non-Christian...

I love Christmastime in the States because there is a lot of genuine happiness and joy, and that's a wonderful thing to see. I am honestly happy for and respectful of this Christian holiday that means so much to many of my friends.

However.

There is a line, and sometimes people (often unwittingly) cross it, becoming obnoxious and horribly insensitive of my (and my family's) non-Christmas celebrating ways. Please remember that as much as taking the Christ out of Christmas imposes upon your religious views, so does your forcing Christmas -- in any form -- upon me infringe upon my religious views.

As for Santa Claus and Christmas trees... these things are primarily for children, and it is for my children that I am mostly worried. I worry that seeing these symbols, symbols that are not theirs, in their schools and from their teachers, will make them feel less worthy than the Christian children for whom all the fuss is being made. I understand that neither Santa nor the tree have any religious grounding, but they do symbolize a religion that is not one I want to pass along to my children. Please put yourself in my shoes and think about how you'd handle it if YOU were the minority religion.

Also, religious decorations in a government building? Grossly inappropriate. If you must, hang up some lights or ribbons or a garland or two, but please keep the nativity scenes for the church or your front yard.

I don't remember who said this (and am too tired to scroll down and find out), but this quote makes me so incredibly sad. Helga said it best, so I'm just going to word her and move on.

As far as there being no separation of church and state in the Constitution, while it's true the document does not explicitly outlaw a religious state, it does make pretty clear that the government cannot promote (or exclude) one religion over another. At the same time, it does not ban religion outright (as I expect the "communist constitution" does). If that's not separation between church and state, I don't know what is. If the argument is that the declaration is made in the amendments and not the core Constitution, please remember the amount of compromise necessary to get the Constitution to a point where it would be ratified by all the states. The founding fathers knew it needed more guidelines than it provided, and that's why they added the Bill of Rights, in one chunk, and almost immediately after the ratification of the original document. If I have misintrepreted (or forgotten my history), and this is truly not a country where the law guarantees a separation of church and state, then perhaps I should look into moving.

Btw, Wendy... there's another Eid rolling around at the end of January.

Seasons greetings, everyone.

Thank you, Noelle, for saying what I wanted to say a lot more diplamatically than I could have.

One thing, America is not, nor has it ever been, a Christian country. It is a country that has a history of diversity of religion. I hope it continues to hold to the freedom of religion, even with our current administration.

- Laura

A couple of points... I hadn't thought about it this way before, but I saw someone pointing out that the primary point of "separation of church and state" is to make it clear that the President of the US is not also the arch-bishop of the country. That the bishop of Virginia doesn't have an automatic Senate seat. Etc. We're not even close to that level of entanglement.

Lower-level stuff, like nativity scenes on public property, I tend to think should be handled democratically and locally. There'd be lots of different demarcation points across blue and red states -- displays agreed to by the people who are going to be seeing them. One of the things that ticks me off is that so many of these stories seem to be in reaction to lawsuits, which means public policy is being made by a very small minority.

As to whether America is a "Christian country" -- well, depends on how you define it We do not have an official American Christian church (thank the founding fathers!). And we've been blessed by contributions from all sorts of religions/cultures/etc, which I certainly want to see continued -- that's one of the things about America I'm very proud of. But when somewhere around 90% of the population describes itself as Christian, and when so much of our culture comes from a Christian background (including the concept of separation of church and state, btw -- Jesus was specific about his followers also being tax-paying, law-abiding Roman subjects/citizens, regardless of the official Roman theology. There's nothing like that in Islam) ... well, I think as a generalization, "Christian country" works pretty well. In the same general way that Pakistan is Muslim, India is Hindu, France is secular, etc.

PJ

Very true. However, the law was deliberately written vaguely enough to be applicable beyond the 18th century, and the courts (Supreme included) have ruled time and again that the principle of separation of church and state applies at all levels, including local establishments such as public schools.

Using my tax dollars to pay for the nativity scene in front of the local post office? I don't think so.

America is a secular country with Judeo-Christian leanings. It was not ever declared a Christian state. Pakistan, on the other hand, was founded with the intention of being a Muslim country. And if France (a country of many Catholics) can be classed as secular, so can the U.S.

I'm sorry, but the bolded portion of your statement is wholly inaccurate, as well as a tad offensive.

Yes, they have, although not quite as much as some people seem to believe. And courts have been wrong before. If I can dig up any of the sources I vaguely recall, I'll post them

Which is where the democratic part comes in, in my hypothetical situation -- tell your local government you're utterly opposed to it, and if enough of your fellow citizens agree, your tax money won't be used for that. In some areas, of course, you'll be voted down -- but such is part of life. My tax money goes to pay for the teaching of evolution and various other things that I would not voluntarily spend money on.

True, America was never declared a Christian state; I didn't say it ever had been. But it was founded by people who, for the most part, believed in the Judeo-Christian God (bearing in mind that there are lots of discussion & disagreements within Christianity, so I'm speaking pretty generally here), and that belief had a lot to do with the concept of natural rights -- granted by a supreme being, not the state. And, as I said, some 90% of Americans say they're Christians. That seems like a fairly solid majority.

France used to be Catholic, yes, but they've been consciously changing over to secularism over the past few decades. It's illegal, for instance, for kids to wear religious symbols (head scarves, stars of David, crosses) to school. We're heading down that road, I think, but haven't gone nearly as far.

You've got me on Pakistan <g> I really wasn't talking about forms of government so much as widespread beliefs -- but of course, if it's borderline illegal to not be Muslim, that's gonna influence how people answer those poll questions, so the two are not unrelated.

I apologize for any offense. I've read in multiple sources that Islam considers church and state to be inseperable (sharia law, etc) but there are tons of things out there I haven't read, so I'd be quite interested in looking into any resources anyone can give, to disprove the point.

PJ

This actually isn't quite true. The concept of separation of church and state did not even exist as a concept in law until Everson v Board of Education in 1947 in winning arguments made by the ACLU and an opinion written by Justice Hugo Black who said, "No tax in any amount large or small can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion."

After only 57 years, it is now mistakenly accepted by the public that the separation of church and state is in the Constitution, but it is not there in any form. Pam states it correctly that the First Amendment bans a state-sponsored religion. The Founders were thinking of things like the Anglican Church of England where the head of the Church is chosen by the head of government, not nativity scenes in front of a post office.

The First Amendment actually says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." It says nothing about mentioning religion in the public arena. Note that a display in front of a post office has nothing to do with Congress. And it is quite arguable that preventing kids from singing Christmas carols or putting Christmas-themed floats in parades is a gross violation of the part that says, "prohibiting the free exercise thereof," the part of the First Amendment always forgotten by Christmas opponents.

Most separation advocates point to a single letter written by Thomas Jefferson, who did not even attend the Constitutional Convention because he was home with his sick wife and had nothing to do with the drafting of our founding document, as evidence the Founding Fathers intended a complete wall between church and state. Yet the author of the First Amendment, James Madison, appointed the first chaplain of the House of Representatives.

Another little known fact is that many states had official state religions well into the 19'th Century, an impossibility if the separation of church and state were indeed in the Constitution.

So while the separation of church and state is indeed law today, it is highly inaccurate to say it is in the Constitution in any form. It is yet another law created out of thin air by advocates who believe the Constitution is a "living document" that must adjust to the times. Yet even those advocates misuse that phrase. "Living document" refers to the amendability of the document through a set process of voting (2/3 majority of Congress and 3/4 of state legislatures or a Constitutional convention), not a flexible interpretation of its contents.

One thing I will agree with is that I don't want my tax money to go towards exhibits in front of the post office, but most often the exhibits are donations from individuals. I have no problems with those and I, like Noelle, am completely non-religious.

On Thomas Jefferson: The same week he wrote the letter to the Danbury Baptist Association with the infamous "wall of separation between church and state" phrase, he attended worship services in the meeting hall of the US House of Representatives. This was his custom throughout his term in office.

The separation he was talking about was more the separation of Church government -particularly denominatinal governments -from civil government. This is manifestly a GOOD THING, and is a good paraphrase of the religious freedom part of the first amendment. It is not about separating religion and religious people from public life, regardless of what the Supreme Court says. (If you think that the US Supreme Court is infallible, I have two words for you - Dred Scott)

There is a great deal of difference between having a visible Nativity scene, and being forced to kneel in worship before it.

There is little or no danger of Christians setting up a theocracy in the US. It's hard enough to get two denominations to cooperate "offically" on disaster relief, much less impose anything on anyone. We even have some denominations (including mine, unfortunately) which have bishops who want to remove Christ from the Church - nevermind Christmas. If we can ever get our acts together and do what we're called to do we'll be very suprised.

I would argue that Government imposition of secularism is itself an imposition of a specific religious view, and is incredibly divisive.

Joseph Farah "State Imposed Athesism"


Frank

I haven't looked at the poll because, judging by people's responses to it and James's own apology, it's not really going to help me contribute to this discussion.

I'm an aetheist born of Christian parents. I have no idea what my sister's views on religion are, and, after a life-long rejection of religion, my brother came back to Christianity about 6 years ago while married to his second wife.

So, having established where I'm coming from <g>, here's my view of Christmas.

Christmas is a day for goodwill towards family, friends, and even complete strangers. It's the day you watch smiles appear on your loved ones' faces as they open the presents you gave them. It's the day you sit down for a good, home-cooked lunch with your family - a meal that everyone helps prepare and clean up afterwards. It's the day you go for a walk after lunch, and everyone you pass smiles at you. Even the man in the air-sea rescue helicopter that's flying low over your heads as you walk along the cliff-top waves at you from his open door (that one's a bit specific, but it's what happened to me this year <g>). It's the day you wake up feeling warm and fuzzy inside, and strangely, being nice to absolutely everyone in your family is effortless - and you can do it all day long without flagging!

So what's my point? Um...well, I suppose I'm saying that, in my view, almost anyone can celebrate that sort of Christmas, irrespective of their beliefs. I'm not saying that they should, but hey, if you do, and your religion has another significant festival during the year, at least you'll get two lots of celebration when I'll only get one. I'm thinking here of my Muslim colleague at work, whose family enthusiastically embraces both Christmas and Eid. They put their own, individual spin on both events, and so far as I can tell, have a wonderful time.

All of that said, I can see how irritating it would get to have someone else's celebrations shoved down your throat from around September to December. I think there's a strong case to be made for the general toning-down of Christmas mania - even those of us who do celebrate it are often heartily sick of the hoopla that goes on for month after month.

Edit: I forgot to add that, of course, the lonely and the homeless cannot, sadly, participate in the sort of Christmas I described. Those are the people who are truly excluded at Christmas time.

Yvonne

I agree with everything that Yvonne has said. Christmas to me is kind of secular, because really, when I think of Christmas, what comes to mind are Christmas lights, shopping, and tons of feel-good movies. The religious significance of Christmas to Christians becomes secondary. I've been told that Jesus was not even born on 25th Dec, so perhaps that has something to do with the way I see Christmas.

I'm going to get angry retorts from the Christian community over here, but I'm going to stick my neck out and say it anyway. I suspect this entire thing about how the religious significance of Christmas being taken away and only Christian displays are being targeted etc is really a backlash because the Christians are so vocal about other issues like abortion, homosexuality and even evolution.

Issues like these are social issues which should have nothing to do with religion, but very often your religion will tell you which is the 'right' stance for you to take, which side you should be on. Do you then impose your beliefs on others then? If my religion says nothing about abortion, should anti-abortion laws apply to me? If my religion preachs the superiority of a sex over the other, should anti-discrimatpry laws apply to me?

There's no simple answer. There lies the problem. For each of the examples that I've named (abortion, homosexuality, evolution), I can name many Christian groups/associations that are against them, and are pushing for laws. Some of them are very well known to be very vocal, and very influencial. In comparison, the number of people from other religions organising themselves and lobbying is much less, I think. At least, I haven't come across many of their readings, unlike readings from Christian groups.

This of course, could simply be due to sheer numbers; in a country where 90% of the population consider themselves Christian, of course there are more Christian groups.

But if I'm not a Christian, I'd be very nervous that laws of a country are being written with obvious Judeo-Christianity slant, and yet a clause to say that these laws only apply to Jews and Christians is not present. I'd be more nervous when the city halls of this country put up religious decorations associated with a Christian festival, but not for festivals of other religions.

I'm not sure if I'm taking an over-simplistic view about the entire thing. I'm NOT trying to start a social issues debate here. Honestly. I'm also not trying to suggest that Christians are wrong for taking a stance on a social issue based on religion. The way I see it, your religion shapes your values, and values determine what kind of society we live in. Therefore it's perfectly legitimate to bring in your religion when debating about a social issue.

I think I'll stop here before I offend more people. I just want to say that I'm not an anti-Chistianity person or anything like that. I'm using Christianity as an example here because this poll is talking about a Christian festival.


metwin1

metwin1, you said almost exactly what is on my mind rearding religion and social issues. Thank you.

And, no, Jesus was not born on December 25. Christmas was basically adopted as a feast day celebrated by several other culture. Actually, early Christians were opposed to celebrating Jesus's birthday at all. Here is an article about the history of Christmas . It's from a Catholic web site, so it is slanted, but the early Christians were Catholic.

That is why 'taking the Christ out of Christmas' is riddiculous to me. If people want to celebrate Christ's birthday with a solemnity like Easter without the secular customs and the customs adopted from the ancient solstice feasts, they should find out when his birthday really was (for some reason, I think I've heard April before) and set up a true solemnity of Christ's birth significant to only Christians.

- Laura

There is no way for me to explain my view as eloquently as everybody else already has, but I will say this is about the most interesting poll I've seen on this board and I'm really impressed with the insites and mature discussion.

Well done you guys.

TJ

Some very interesting points since I last commented. I just wanted to note briefly with regard to this:

that it isn't all Christian churches/groups who take a hard-line stance on these issues, and by no means all those whose teaching is opposed to abortion, say, would ever advocate militancy over it. I'm an Anglican by birth (Episcopalian, for the North Americans), though I've drifted away in recent years. My church has no problem whatsoever with evolution. It has softened its stance on homosexuality, and of course many priests are gay and, in the US, there is now a gay bishop (though I'm aware that has caused many problems within the church). Its teaching does not approve abortion, but decisions are left up to individual conscience.

I don't disagree with the general thrust of your observation, Metwin1, but I did want to point out that it's a vocal minority, as ever, who is most noticeably strident about these issues. (I don't, by the way, intend or wish to pass judgement about anyone's personal views on any of those issues; I respect people's right to hold whatever view they do. It's the violence outside abortion clinics, or stoning or abuse against gays, etc, which I object strongly to, and I agree with Metwin1 that there is definitely a question about whether it's right to impose a certain moral stance on others who don't share those religious beliefs. If it's by the will of the people as a whole, fine; if it's by loud shouting on the part of a noisy minority, not so fine.).


Wendy

I’m late catching up in the poll thread because, originally, it didn’t interest me. Well, curiosity got the better of me and I found a few things I wanted to respond to.

First off, as some know, I’m not affiliated with any religion. I go from agnostic to atheist and back, depending on how I feel. My parents were both Baptized in some sect of the Christian belief, but chose to raise us without religion -- a choice I’m grateful for. We still celebrated Christmas and Easter (though I never did understand why we did Easter, and it wasn’t until I was older that I found out that it had nothing to do with pastels and bunnies and eggs and candy Just thought I’d mention it.

I might think of more later, but I though I’d catch up while I could.

Sara

No, because for us the word 'holiday' only means what you call a vacation. So I go on holiday, or I have a holiday from work. That's all. We don't call festive or holy times of year 'holidays' - shudder.


Wendy

Well, I had tried to reply earlier, but my reply wouldn't come out as I wanted. Basically (given that in my country Christianity has played a major role in our history - if you want details, just ask - and that I am an Orthodox Christian), I believe that the celebrations should depend on the existing laws on religion: If the country is considered a 'Christian' country, then Christian holidays should be holidays. Same goes for Islamic countries etc.. That said, individuals can get their own holidays. A shop owner might choose not to operate their shop during a day they consider a holiday. I suppose that a clerk can ask for a one-day vacation from their boss (or, hell, call in sick for once! ) As for decorations and stuff, I believe everyone should do as they wish, but the officials must have drawn a line and act according to it, keeping into consideration the beliefs of the citizens.

Also, some said that they don't regard Christmas as a Christian holiday, but rather like a season when they can celebrate love etc.. If you have a holiday from work anyway, sure, why not celebrate? Besides, with the new year and all, it's logical. But then it's not *Christmas*, right? It's just 'the holidays' or something to that effect, and it sounds absurd to me that an atheist, for example, would celebrate Christmas meaning that they'd exchange gifts and would have a party, without anything related to Christ.

I'm sure this didn't come out as I wanted. Whatever. I tried.

One more thing I noticed:

We Orthodoxes believe that the early Christians were Orthodoxes and that the Catholics have altered the original Christian faith. Not trying to start a fight here, just thought that you'd like to keep this in mind for future reference, Laura. A perfect example of how everyone thinks they're right and that the 'others' are wrong.

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

Yeah, I'm going to bore on about this, too <g>. See, 'the holidays' is a phrase that just doesn't exist in colloquial British English, so your question doesn't resonate with us cranky, nitpicking Brits . In fact, maybe I need a clarification. Does 'the holidays' only refer to Christmas? Can Easter be 'the holidays'? Can you wish someone 'Happy Holidays' and mean either 'Happy Christmas' or 'Happy Easter'? What about a day like 4th July or Thanksgiving?

Yvonne

Any recognized day when business offices are closed are official holidays, to Americans. This includes 4th of July, Labor Day, Memorial Day, and Thanksgiving. Easter, itself, isn't a business holiday, but it's a holiday all the same.

"Happy Holidays" refers to the December season lasting from Thankgiving-ish or Hannukah (insert your spelling here) all the way to New Years Day, and slightly beyond for those celebrating Twelfth Night and other early January holidays. At least, in my thinking.

Yes, it is Christmas. It's just a secular Christmas - ie, you celebrate certain aspects of the religious festival because you respect and agree with the spirit they seek to embrace. This is what my Christian parents gave to me, and for which I'm very grateful: I live by many Christian values even though I'm an aetheist, because I believe they're generally a good way to live a life that's courteous, generous of spirit, and respectful of other people's beliefs and values.

So I reserve the right to celebrate Christmas and call it Christmas, even though I don't believe in the Christmas story. Heck, I can even sing Christmas carols with conviction, because the tunes and harmony are so wonderful - Christmas has inspired some truly great compositions and arrangements over the years.

Yvonne

Well, Yvonne...

Guess Karen beat me to it :p

The plural of holiday, to my knowledge, only comes about during the end of the year known as the "holiday season." I'm guessing because there are a few holidays in a row -- Thanksgiving (which I've had trouble understanding with all the controversy of "indian" and the "white man"... to put it simply and unpolitically correct ), Christmas, and New Year's. I guess one might even throw Halloween in there too. Other days such as Veteran's Day (my birthday

PS - Found this... but it's not what I would call a "reliable" source <g>:

Tried the google thing and haven't found anything yet... I'll let you know if I do.

Doesn't seem at all absurd to this atheist/agnostic.

Despite my mother ensuring I had full access to Christian learning and activities when I was a child, it just never 'took'. From my earliest memories I can remember knowing this was not for me. So, as I grew up, I never really associated Christmas with Christ. More with elements of the pagan winter festival on which Christians based Christmas and just a general sense of peace and goodwill to all and the embracing of family. All notions which I've never considered exclusive to any religion.

So it tends to make perfect sense to me.

LabRat

Okay, time for the weird 4am garble to come out of my mouth, so this may only make sense to me. Here's what I've noticed in my town, and here's what I think Christmas is about.

Even as a Christian, honestly I've never seen a lot of Christ in this holiday to begin with. I mean, yeah, I went to mass on Christmas Eve, and the little school kids acted out the story of Jesus' birth. It was adorable of course and put me in the holiday spirit. (There was this kid who played the star, and his face poked out of this yellow star-shaped monstrosity as big as him...so cute!) There's of course the usual Christian decorations, too...nativity scenes, Advent wreaths, etc. But anyway...that's about all I see as far as Christ goes. It's not like I'm even seeing extra church stuff going on they way we do with Easter. Leading up to Easter, there's extra masses, more opportunities for sacraments, and more community involvement. So when I'm not even seeing anything worthwhile in my own church about Christmas, I don't particularly see a reason to whine and complain when the government won't let me...put up a nativity scene inside the Post Office, to have an example throughout this post.

Random thought: Isn't Christmas originally a pagan holiday anyway or something? Or at least some traditions stem from paganism. It's not like we made this stuff up from scratch.

So I suppose this just isn't that important of a Christian celebration for me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing it at all. It just doesn't rank first for me as far as Christian stuff goes. (Nor does it rank last.) And I think Christmas is whatever you make of it. If you personally don't feel like there's enough Christ in this holiday season, there's plenty you can do on your own or with others without stuffing it down everyone's throats. Community service, a special prayer with loved ones on Christmas day, whatever you can think of. When we all start arguing over whether or not I can put up my nativity scene inside the Post Office...it's just a nativity scene, and I wouldn't whine about it to begin with...for me personally, I see a lot more to Christmas than just some cardboard decorations we all fight over. I understand completely that this is an important holy day for some people who want to shout it from the rooftops and decorate like the Griswolds (National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation...hilarious movie), but...tough. Not everyone's Christian, and we need to respect that.

Easter's the most important Christian day anyway for me. As long as Christ stays there, I'm happy.

Peace,
Jen

That's funny, considering the song "Happy Holidays" was written by Irving Berlin more than 50 years ago.

I never knew that. I'm *suppose* to be Anglican, but religion is not part of my life. I've gone years w/o even thinking of it. I know they have churches here w/ both stuff in the title, but I never knew they were the same!

I've read, watch the documentaries, read discussions, done the academic thing (yes I cannot spell even though!) and I'm familiar with the whole issue. I don't want anything to change and it is fun that everyone celebrates it in their own way. I get a sad though when some people think it should be one way and that's it and everyone else should just suck it up. It is a sad that many cultures where lost and ended up sort of being mixed up for various reasons, but at least now we realize *some* of those cultures that are now gone have left a bit of their mark during the winter season.


LINK - Hope it is somewhat accurate.

Since I am uncomfortable with religion - for me it is all about the chocolate, bunnies and sort of a celebration of the warmer months yet to come.

I understand the religious significance, but I'd feel wrong celebrating the regligion I am not apart of, feel uncomfortable with, and not believe in. I would also be sad if people where told they could not celebrate their religious Easter.

For me, I go to my Mother-in-Laws and my Grandparents for a bite to eat. My Mum in law will go to Church (like every other Sunday - RCath.) and bug her son's to come and well they won't. While I just get hyper on my chocolate and look out the window for the white bunny that my Mum always said came. (It happened three times when I was little and now it is a joke that he comes every year).

Hey...where did my other post go? I put one up about Xmas. Geesh I'm loosing it!

EDIT - weird...it is there now! (I wanted to put this w/ that one. Oh well)

Target has always had a "no solicitors" policy, which the SA was the sole exception to. However, they were getting complaints from other groups, so they decided to apply the policy to everyone equally.

From the horse\'s mouth