Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Fun with Polls Seriously...A Question about "God"

OK...this is not a religious poll, so don't run screaming to hide under the bed.

What this is about is the word "god" when it is used as slang. I ask this because I realize how often it seems to show up in my own writing and also, because I'm not exactly sure how to handle the capilization issue.

Hard to explain...just read the poll and it hopefully will make sense.

Thanks!
Lynn

As an agnostic/athiest (it depends on my mood and the day of the week ), you'll be deeply surprised to hear I voted 'don't care' on both questions.

The only thing that always bugged me on this issue was when authors would use 'g-d'. Not just for this, but for other 'taboo' words too. I always just figured if you're going to use a word, use it, darn it. Either use it or don't. But that halfway house business of using it and blocking it out with dashes just irked me. I understand that authors were just trying to be sensitive to the feelings of others, but it just always struck me as a complete cop-out really. If you want to be sensitive and think you'll offend someone, just don't use it at all.

I was terribly relieved when that trend died out and went out of fashion.

An interesting aside on this one. I have a friend who is a very devout Christian. Years ago, we got onto this subject and what she said about it always stuck with me. She never got offended, she said, when someone used god in this way or in a curse. She always just assumed that they weren't talking about her god and that it would be kind of arrogant of her to assume that they were when there were so many other gods in the world that people believed in, besides her own.

Kind of an interesting perspective, I thought.


LabRat

LabRat said:

Someone mentioned this point on the fic list some time ago, and a Jewish member explained that it's mainly Jews who write God like that and that there is a religious reason for it. I can't remember the explanation now, but I'm sure that someone will be able to fill us in.


Wendy

I voted "other" for question #1. I don't find it offensive, but I try to avoid using it because I know others do. Also, seeing it used sometimes makes me feel a little odd just because I have strong feelings about religion in general. I'm not offended. I just sometimes feel a bit funny about the whole thing. Hard to describe/explain, really.

As for the dash issue, I'll do my best, but if someone knows it better, please do feel free to correct me. Basically, there's a law in Judaism derived from the commandment to never take the lord's name in vain. It's okay to write the word in some cases, but it's pretty much never okay to say it out loud. (I think the assumption is that if you're writing something, it must be serious.)

In Hebrew, there are a bunch of euphamisms/epithets which are used that mean things like "My Lord," "The King," "The Diety," "The Most Holy One," etc. Even when you see one of the more common ones (which was transliterated as "Jehova" by some groups), you're not supposed to say the word out loud. Even in prayer. It's not the name (which, we were taught, no one knows), but it's closely enough associated to be dangerous. So the word is read as "Adonai," which means "My Lord." In Hebrew school, we weren't even taught the proper pronounciatinon. We were simply told that even if it looked different, it should be read as "Adonai."

The conventions aren't so much in place in English. Some people will say "Oh my lord," but there aren't many like that and it doesn't quite mean the same thing. So, to protect against people accidentally reading the name out loud, the dash convention was created. The idea is that, even if you're reading out loud or just mumbling to yourself as you read, seeing the dash will force you to stop and think twice, thus helping to ensure that you don't accidentally say the word.

Paul

That someone would be me, hopefully.

Wendy is quite correct.

Jews write the word G-d because it stands for the Sacred name that God gave them to stand for him, forever, at the time of the Exile in Egypt.

(It is actually a personal form of writing, Jesus, for example.)

It is considered too holy to speak and it is often denoted by cross references in Hebrew text between other words such as Adonay, meaning Lord, to arrive at the common use of YHWH. Or Yahweh. In traditional Hebrew, vowels are not written.

The Christian tradition of, do not use the name of thy lord in vain, also comes from this practice. It is also one of the ten commandments.

Jehovah, I believe is a Christian translation. YHWH is strictly the proper name of the God of Israel.

The actual pronounciation due to this practice, has been lost (vowels have been lost). Only the actual meaning remains, which translates to 'I AM WHAT I AM', or 'WILL BE'.

Paul...this is exactly it! Except for the "strong feelings about religion in general" you've summed up my dilemma perfectly. I often find myself writing "Oh God" or "Oh my God" as part of dialogue, probably because I say that myself a lot. But every time I go through my story to edit, I pause and feel odd about it. Like, am I offending people? Is this wrong to do this? I was raised Catholic and was always told to say "Oh my gosh" instead of "Oh my God" so I think I have a fundemantal guilt issue when I toss those words out so easily.

I'm honestly trying to retrain myself to just think that the "god" used in slang phrases isn't the "God" of religious significance. Kind of like the development of sayings that at one time had a specific meaning/reason but are now just said out of tradition. Like saying "bless you" when someone sneezes. Once upon a time, I know there was a reason people said that (and I think - not sure - it might have had to do with sneezing and not wanting to be cursed because you did so) but now we just say it as an almost non-thinking response. Someone sneezes, you say "bless you" or even "God bless you."

Does that make any sense?

Lynn

I think I'm with Lynn & Paul, mostly -- it makes me feel a little bit weird. Like you, Lynn, we were told to use "oh my gosh" and "darn it" when growing up, and I'm trying to teach my own kids similar things. But it's only a little bit weird, so it often slips out of me when I'm not thinking about it. I like the idea of thinking of it as having been secularized, like "bless you" (which, I believe, originated with the Black Death in Europe; if you sneezed, you were about to die, or something) -- it makes sense. I don't have much of a problem with "omg" but I do find it offensive if someone uses the name of Christ as slang. As you say, "god" is a general term, that all sorts of religions use, to mean a myriad of different things. (And then there's all the Goa'uld false gods on Stargate, but let's not go there ) But using the name of Jesus is pretty specific.

It's not entirely logical. I have very few problems with using "god" as slang, and I have no trouble at all using "damn" but I don't ever put them together. My husband once had a window-sign in his car that said "God's last name is not dammit" <g>

I've gotten a lot more conscious about this since I've had kids repeating back everything I say <g> Thank goodness for all the alternatives out there... my particular favorite substitution lately has been "frell" (from Farscape) instead of that other f-word, but that's speaking, not writing. It's different when it's written down, harsher or something.

PJ

That's how things went in my house growing up and because of that I still feel the same way. My parents didn't mind the two seperately but GD was NEVER acceptable.

~Liz

That's interesting, guys. But I still find myself wondering - why use it at all then? Wouldn't it be much better to just use something else, if it's proscribed? It's not as though it's strictly necessary to use it. You are allowed to use other words and no one will hold it against you. <G>

And is this applicable to other words? Because in the early days of the fandom I've seen dashes used in all kinds of curse words too. Or was it originally used solely for god and its use just generally got widened over time?

I think this is why some authors are in the habit of using OMG instead. And, just proving to myself that I have a perverse nature, for some reason that one doesn't bother me at all, where the dash does.

Hey, I never said I was logical...

LabRat

An Orthodox's point of view:

Capitalization:
Clearly, when I am referring to the higher power I believe in, I call It "God", with a capital G. I also capitalize it in phrases such as "Oh my God," because, to me, it's like asking God's help to understand/believe/etc. something, and I don't think of it as a blasphemy. I am writing it with a lower case g when it is clearly refering to another god - unless, say, I am writing down the words someone said about their own god. They would capitalize them, so I capitalize them too.

Swearing etc.:
I don't swear much, and I would *never* even dare pronounce this "popular" Greek swearing phrase, "f*** my Virgin/Christ". It's hard enough to say the f-word in this context.
I have to point out, though, that over here there's no thing like "not saying God's name out of respect". It is blasphemy to use it in inappropriate context, as the aforementioned, but (at least as far as I know) it's okay to use it in other cases.
On the other hand, it's the name of the Devil which is supposed to be a taboo (although it really isn't, nowadays). Personally, I use it in several different contexts. One day, however, a few years ago, I told my mother "Go to the devil" (the Greek equivalent of "Go to hell") and my father slapped me. Dunno if it was because of that word's use or because I was being rude to my mother, but since then I think twice about saying it.

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

I'll admit it: I curse like a sailor. It's one of my worse habits. I think I've cut back a lot on it over the last couple of years, but a lot of 'oh my gods' and 'jesus christs' slip out from time to time.

Nice. I just had to laugh a that, never having heard it put like that before. But in all seriousness, that's the one thing I won't say. As a Catholic, yeah I konw I'm showing God disrespect when I let those 'jesus christs' and stuff slip out. I'm not perfect. But in my opinion, GD is about the worst thing I feel I could say.

Time for a meeting. I'll come back later if I have anything else to say.

Okay, back. So all that being said, as far as capitalization goes, I never capitalize 'god' when I'm writing it in the slang, casual sense just because I really don't feel I should be using it like that to begin with.

So I think it's all about what you feel comfortable doing!

Ciao,
JD

Interesting poll, Lynn!

I checked 'I don't care' for the first question, and yes that was me who chose 'other' for the second.

Why 'other'? Well, as a not particularly religious person myself (I guess I'm in Lab's class of belief), I never used to capitalize God. Now, when I'm running through something I've written, I always find myself thinking twice about whether or not that capital G needs to be there. I decided to go ahead and capitalize, but only because I've heard it might be disrespectful and or offensive to others. Personally, I think it sometimes looks odd, like 'Oh my God!' as opposed to 'Oh my god!', because, really, I think using "God" in that context, isn't really refering to anything holy. Like you said, Lynn, I think it's one of those expressions that's lost it's original meaning.

As for the dash issue, that always bothered me too. I know others have already addressed it, but what I heard once or twice from some of my friends, is that it's not good to write 'God' down (primarily on paper), because it then becomes something you can throw out, and I gather tossing God in the trash would not be a good thing.

Sara (who was a little reluctant to voice her religious beliefs - or lack thereof - on the boards, but figured she and Lab can take on the masses if necessary )

Lab, I'm not sure why. I was raised in a not-particularly-religious household, and never got the full explanation of more strict practices. I think the rule dates back to a time when most hebrew writing was religious in nature. You need to use the word (or a word) in order to discuss the subject, but you want to be extra careful about unintentional use. That's not a problem in writing, where you think more carefully before putting something down and whatever you write remains as it is. (And there are also very strict laws about not damaging or destroying anything with the word on it.) At least, that's how things were before the internet... Personally, I'm more likely to type something without thinking than I am to say it.

There's a strong movement, particularly among the more religious jews, to basically err on the side of caution. Just about any rule you find will have carefully written corallaries, as well as updated corallaries for modern times.

dundun, I was taught that that word is *not* the name, but simply another epithet. It's just treated as the name, or the next thing to it.

As for sneezing, it goes like this:

There used to be a belief that when you sneeze, your soul briefly leaves your body. It comes right back, but there's an instant during which you're vulnerable to possession by the Devil (or one of his demons). So, if someone near you sneezed, you'd say "God bless you" to ward off any nearby demons until the soul could return to its proper place.

Personally, I prefer "gezuntheit" (or however that's spelled), since it means "good health." Makes a lot of sense if someone sneezes to wish them good health, don't you think?

Paul

I probably use God a bit more in certain curses than I should. Of course, by the time I get to GD, I really mean "damn <whatever I'm damning> and get it out of my sight"... probably not the most appropriate way to do it. I tend to use "oh good lord" quite a bit, but that's also the short form of "oh good lord, grant me strength and patience so I don't throttle the idiots in this world". Flimsy excuses, maybe, but more often than not, that's my thinking at the time.

As far as capitalization, I agree with the God when referring to the being, and god anywhere else. First form is a proper noun, the second is just a regular noun.

Another point to consider is that in the series, Lois often said, "Oh, god," and it was clearly not a cry for divine help. And in Tempus, Anyone, the dialogue goes this way:

LOIS: Let me get this straight. You're
Superman. And your high school
girlfriend can push you around.

CLARK: (beat, then:) Oh, Cod.
He SUPER-HEARS an alarm.

CLARK: Speaking of Superman...

So both Clark and Lois said "god" on occasion, and the script writers seem to capitalize it in dialogue even when the characters are clearly not invoking the deity.

There is apparently precendent for using it, but the spelling is all about your comfort level.

Jude

I'm pretty much an atheist -- it really does not bother me to see it written. In fact, I have a habbit of using God as part of my exclamations -- God, what a mess. Etc. Actually, thinking about it, I really don't find any words offensive, which my day-to-day speaking vocabulary probably indicates ;p. I like to look more at how they are said. A casual curse that is basically just a more colorful version of, "I'm frustrated," "WOW!" "That's too bad," etc is really not a big deal to me. It's when they are intended specifically to insult and directed at a person I perceive to be undeserving that they're a problem, and mostly that just makes me mad that the person would be cruel like that, rather than mad that the person cursed in the first place. If that makes sense.

Anyways to sum it's just not a big deal to me.

Jude, please tell me you meant to spell "God"

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

Now don't let this upset you, Anna, but I meant to spell it "god". When Teddy Roosevelt, Harry Truman and I were learning spelling rules, it was always written with a "G", but language changes and practices change. When I'm writing fictional dialogue, I only capitalize it now when I'm referring to a religious deity. See, even language curmudgeons can change.

Jude

No, Jude, I think Anna's referring to earlier in your post - to the typo in Clark's dialogue, when you wrote "Cod". I don't think he was talking about fish...

Kathy

Well I did the poll the other night and picked other for both b/c I cannot really fit anywhere. Or I don't want to!

I'm not religious, but I am overly sensitive to others needs.

I'll say "oh my god", but I find I spell it gawd when I say it like a valley girl. I don't know why. I find I only restrict it with friends and around my Husand and Brother and pple I know who don't mind it. I do it without realizing.

I don't say it but I guess I don't capitalize it b/c for me there is no connection to a god, for me it is just a saying.

I just don't know what to think.

Hmm... I'd use it in fic without batting an eyelash. Last night I thought with a small g, but now I think G...no g...ack I don't know!

Is a God a person, no entity, just a belief (?) (as opposed to a thing I cannot think of another word) a high up entity no matter in what belief. If you are speaking of them in general (Mythology to Christ.) you are going to touch on some big guy, so not why all with a capital!

Regardless of what I think if I am referring to them in a paper in a general fashion - g - if specifically - G -. In oh my gawd - "Oh my god".
you know what. (I'm thinking outloud again). You are reffering to the 'big guy' or guys or gal or gals no matter what when you use that word. It can be a name, righ? So God. I wouldn't spell Jesus or Frank with a j or f if I am talking about them in general....ACK MY BRAIN HURTS!!

But then if you were to say you idolize them - "oh Clark looks like a god" then you would make it small according to 'proper English' books...

my head still hurts.

I don't know what to say now. Guess another poor grammar thing of mine.

I do get ticked when I hear pple say it over and over and over again.

One school mate who is thought it was a way to show how upset they were over something and kind of reaching out to God in a ... un bad way.

I've been told saying any sort of religious stuff in such a way is rude, but REALLY, why?

I don't understand, sorry. I wasn't brought up with that sort of education.

I hate it when pple hide a word. Like what Labrat said. We all know what you mean. What is the use of hiding it? I'm not offended by it. I is a word in a story. You can develope a character in whatever way.

I only get offended when I am on the bus and every second word out of a person's mouth is the non impressive swear words. They have their place with some. Though, I could tell those guys to please use a little imagination and expand their vocabulary. I never swore until I was around 22. Now I am a pirate in private.

Maybe they are just describing the same situation over and over there for the large usage of the same swears...in that case GET A LIFE!

I'm getting off track.

BY!