Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Fun with Polls Are You a Pedantic Reader?

I'm a tad shy about emailing people from the boards. And if I'm insecure about emailing someone here out of the blue, even more so to email them to point out an error in their story! It honestly never occurred to me to do that. I just thought that these boards were the appropriate place for all feedback, including the 'proof-reading' kind.

I'm not offended or upset to learn that it is not appropriate to do this, and if my first post implied that I was, it was simply a poor choice of words on my part. I just meant that, now that I know, I won't do it anymore!

- Vicki

I've only emailed one author about a story and it was one on the archives. The story is THE ELEVATOR. At the end of the story they are parked outside of Clark's apartment and they are going to go into his apartment and then suddenly the author has them in Lois' apartment. I never heard back and it is still posted with the error. So I made the correction on the copy I saved to disk.

When I find new stories posted I save them to zip disks. When I open them in Microsoft Word, to read at my leisure, I always run spell check on them first. I find trying to read something with spelling errors very distracting. I guess that comes from being a secretary at a university 10 years. In fact have a dictionary/thesaurus program on my computer so I can look up definitions if I don't know the word used in a story.

So to all you authors out there keep writing, please keep your story line straight and so I don't get distracted by your spelling errors I'll keep running spell check before I start reading. That is easy the hard part is writing the story to begin with. So here is to you --

Unfortunately for those writers that English is a second language I have to say if their grasp of of the language is really bad I don't read their stories. I find it to distracting to follow the story line when their grasp of the language is so poor. I can only remember 1 or 2 stories that I have not read because of this. If I'm trying to make sense of the sentences posted I can't follow the story.

I'm not criticizing them, they just need the help of a Beta Reader who is well versed in both their native language and English. I'm not good at languages so I applaud them for trying.

I tend to be very nitpicky with my own stories. I write with the spell checker on and go back a couple of times to check for anything it missed before posting stories online.

As for other stories, people are human, so if someone makes one or two errors in a story and they don't interfere with the flow, it doesn't bug me.

If the story is badly written and there are dozens of typos that a spell checker or decent beta reader would have caught, and I'm reading it on a site like fanfiction.net, then I might say something like "You might want to get a beta reader." But I won't point out every little thing they did wrong. IMHO, beta readers are the ones who are supposed to nitpick and point out everything before the story is posted.

I am also way more nitpicky about published writers and professional journalists. In fact, I e-mailed my local paper when they had a typo in one of their headlines on their website the other day. It was the kind of thing a spell checker would have caught. I have also found typos in published novels and cringed. I think the standards for professionals are higher, though.

As for constructive criticism, I don't mind when people nicely point out something obvious so I can fix it. However, I'd rather get feedback on plot, characterization, etc.

Just catching up with this.
When I saw the subject heading I thought I knew what 'nitpicking' was, did the poll, and then I started to read.

So many different defintions lurk beneath the responses. So ... nitpicking is not objecting to major grammar and spelling; oh, wait a minute it is; no, it's the typos; no, no, nothing minor like that - it's plot and charcterization issues; POV, that's what it is; nope nothing that big, just the odd factual errror; uh uh, it's the punctuation and the commas.

It's been fun to read all the responses, but now I need to know how to undo all my answers to the poll itself, because now I have no idea.

Think my answer is it depends, maybe, sometimes, only when I'm betaing, and never on Sunday.

cc m

For me, it's like this...

When I read, some errors jump out at me. I can't help it. No one's writing is perfect, least of all mine, but when I see something, it jolts me. I just can't help but notice. (I wish that worked with my own writing, but when I try to edit something I've written, I tend to somehow skip over my own mistakes. It's very frustrating.)

I'm more forgiving of mistakes from writers whose native language isn't English, and I'm also more likely to speak up about an error if a story's overall quality is high. In a way, the fewer the mistakes, the more they stand out.

I also like to think of the boards version of a story as being in the later stages of editing. If it's here, then it's probably had a certain amount of polish -- enough to make it publically presentable -- but there's still room for tweaks, edits, and improvements before it hits the archive.

What I point out varies. If I really like something but there are a few minor things that jumped out at me (typos, grammar glitches, minor points of confusion, etc), then I'm perfectly willing to add them into a comments post as an (hopefully small) aside. If I know of an author's preferences, I'll certainly take that into account before doing so.

For myself, I like to have errors in my stories pointed out so I can fix them (or at least have that option, depending on whether or not I agree that it needs fixing). I don't mind having them pointed out in the comments thread, but privately (IRC, email, etc) works, too. So, I guess I tend to follow the Golden Rule there. The problem with the Golden Rule is that my preferences aren't always shared. The rule really should be something more along the lines of "Do unto others as, to the best of your knowledge and within the bounds of reason and morality, they would have you do unto them." If an author doesn't state a preference ("I need as much help as I can get!" "All comments welcome." "Be gentle." etc.), however, I have to either guess or assume that they'd want basically what I'd want in the same situation.

Paul

Lynn, what do *you* mean by a nitpick? You said not grammar and spelling. So did you mean writing style issues, or characaterization, or plot holes, or fact errors? Or...?

And when you wrote "expect" - were you getting at asking the point at which a reader stops reading a story?

cc m

I think you just answered the question, Carol...

Mere

I did?? puzzled

cc m

Carol, you bring up a very good question. What exactly is "nitpicking"? And I suppose there are as many answers as there are readers and writers.

For the purposes of this poll, I'll give you my definition. Or perhaps, maybe it's easier if I tell you what I've always expected during the different stages of my writing a story.

When I write something and send it to my beta readers, I expect them to help me locate plot holes and call out any serious story and/or characterization issues. If they happen to notice a mis-spelling or grammatical error or type-O, I'm always thankful when they point it out. I like to have as close to a perfect copy as I can manage before posting to the boards.

When I post to the boards, my expectations of any feedback I receive are along the lines of general feelings/thoughts about the story, as well as pointing out plot issues, story problems and characterization mistakes. I also am glad for the added bonus of the vast intellect of the readers, appreciating very much when they point out stuff that I've gotten wrong on a factual level. For example, if I've had Martha undergo some medical procedure and have really botched it, I'm so thankful if DocJill will pipe up and say "No way. That could never happen."

What I define as "nitpicks" at that stage are when readers point out things like spelling errors or tiny grammatical issues (missing/extra comma, the like). This includes American English usage versus Other English usage, unless I'm trying to sound British and have gotten it all wrong or have totally misused some phrase. And while I certainly need to know that these problems are within the story and need to be fixed, it's when the feedback starts to revolve more around the type-Os than the story itself that I start to flinch.

Finally, in the last stage of story after I've sent it for GEing before archiving, that's when I expect the nitpicking to be at the very highest level. I want to know every mistake in the story so I can fix them.

Like I said, I'm sure others in this fandom would think that pointing out any story problem is nitpicking while others would think that no detail is too small to deserve critique. It's pretty a wide definition.

As for the question about my use of "expect", I'm not sure which context you mean (I'm growing daft in my old age . When I read a story, I expect a fairly clean version, with the most minimal type-Os, spelling errors, etc. If I'm reading something and every other sentence contains a problem, I become too absorbed in the errors that I can no longer focus on the story and usually have to stop reading. If I'm reading a story with virtually no errors at all, when I stumble on one I usually just skim right over it. Does that answer your question??

Lynn

One thing I meant to say earlier and forgot all about. I think pointing out the minor typos etc in a feedback folder sometimes holds a danger that affects our fandom perhaps a little more than many.

Here in FoLCdom, we have a lot of people who find language fascinating, right down to its bones, and who are always up for a roll up the sleeves, get down to the nitty gritty, discussion on the finer points of this topic. It doesn't take much to engage a grammar debate on these mbs.

And for the most part, that's really great. This has been a boon for authors in this fandom for many years, giving us a huge pool of 'expert' opinion to call on. And it's always nice that we have people who care so much about writing - some of the other fandoms I've visited over the years could benefit from that. :p

But when someone posts in a thread intended for comments about a story that the author "Missed a comma in this line..." the danger is that the folder very quickly veers off into Grammar Discussion 101 as others post their opinion and sight is lost of its original purpose.

From talking to other authors, here and there, there can be few things more disappointing for an author than seeing their comments thread jump seven or eight posts, rush in expecting to find lots of comments about the characters, plot or whatever on their story and find a debate on commas instead. Especially if they're less confident or new authors, just starting out.

I'm not saying this happens all the time, and I'm using an extreme example here, (plus this is only my opinion and that's worth darn sight less than two cents <g>) but it is another reason why I, personally, would tend, in the main, to choose irc or email for that kind of grammar nitpicking, instead of the comments folder. I'd be concerned about hijacking the thread.

YM, of course, MV.

Paul, does make a very good point though. Perhaps authors should state their nitpicking preferences at the head of a new story. <g> That way everyone gets what they expect. And want. (Although, I do recall a couple of incidents where authors asked for a complete goldstar service and then complained when they got it... <G>) That, though, would tend to be their problem, wouldn't it?



LabRat

If I may paraphrase - Lynn asked "Are you nitpicky?" and you said "What exactly do you mean by that?"

... Well, I thought it was funny...

Mere

ROTLMAO, Mere!! Guess we have all answered the question by this discussion. And I thought I wasn't nitpicky. /me goes to change her answer on the poll <g>.



Lynn

so embarrassed - shouldn't have asked

cc m

Very Very.

Question 1:
I am simply UNABLE to catch all the grammar/punctuation/etc. mistakes in a story. I am neither a native English speaker, nor is my English at such a high level. Not to mention, no one writes in Greek So this kind of errors I let slip. Besides, unless something's really glaring or has fallen into a category I know well, I'm not even sure it's a mistake...
As for plot, characterisation, writing in character etc.... well, I don't always catch these mistakes either. I'm not that good at writing this kind of thing, too.
I guess my answer to this question is something like, "I would be nitpickish if I could".

Question 2:
Generally, all I want from a story, no matter who wrote it, is to be decent where grammar etc. are concerned and to have something interesting to say (plot or plotless WAFFiness). So I don't have different expectations from different writers. I begin reading, and then... I see and I make up my mind.
I have to say, though, that even if I haven't liked, say, story A by X, it won't prevent me from giving a shot at other stories by X. Every story is different, and a writer has the right to improve. (Or, so I hope )

Question 3:
If you've seen an error in one of my stories, then, by all means, tell me!! I may not always agree, but I surely want to know, to receive other people's opinions and to make my story and my future efforts better. (And if I argue, please DON'T think I didn't appreciate your telling me what you think!)

Question 4:
Just as long as you tell me, it's fine.

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

Anna B. I've read a lot of your stories and your English seems pretty good. So either your English is better than you think it is or you have a great BetaReader. Anyway have enjoyed stories keep it up.

Thanks, kmar! Glad you think so.

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

Very true, kmar! I continue to be amazed by the standard of English usage among our EFL (English as a foreign language) members, in comments posted on the boards and in stories. It makes me feel so ashamed of my own very limited foreign language skills. Many of the non-native-speakers have an understanding of English grammar far exceeding that of native speakers! And given that we have talented EFL authors like Anna and Kaethel and Cristina around, I'm very grateful that they've chosen to write in my language!

Incidentally, the option in the poll about being less nitpicky with someone whose first language isn't English did make me wonder. I know at least one EFL writer who hates the thought of anyone 'making allowances' for the fact that English isn't her first language: she wants her stories to be judged on their merits, not on her country of origin, and she strives to have her work indistinguishable from that by a native speaker. How do other EFL writers feel about that option in the poll?


Wendy

This type of discussion really hooks into something inside of me. And so I thought about it for a long time and then I realized what it was. So let me tell you a story.

Once upon a time, in a land covered in snow and ice, lived a little girl. Now this little girl, along with everyone who started grade one, took an IQ test. And she did quite well. But then, when she was in grade two, she started failing school. In fact, she was doing so poorly that school authorities thought they must have made a mistake on her IQ test. She was sent back for more testing because they thought something must be wrong with her intelligence. She started having ulcers and used to beg her mother not to make her go to school. Her mother, often in tears, knew that her little girl had to go to school and so she made her go in spite of the constant stomach aches.

Authorities were baffled when their testing showed the same above average IQ for the little girl. And so, at the end of grade two, they decided to pass her into grade three. The little girl pleaded and begged with her parents not to make her go to grade three. This time her parents did intercede, fighting with school authorities to let the little girl repeat grade two. And in the end, they won and the little girl was allowed to repeat grade two.

In the years that followed, the little girl did much better in school. In fact, she excelled. Still, no matter what the little girl’s teachers or parents did, she couldn’t seem to learn to read or spell - at least not well. She would stumble over words and often get laughed at by other students when she couldn’t read.

But the little girl never gave up - primarily as a result of parents who believed in her intelligence and a mother who would spend hours with her every night practicing reading and spelling. Her mother would give her nightly spelling tests and then require that she write out each word she got wrong a hundred times. And then, once that was done, would give her the same test again. The odd thing was that she would still get words wrong - sometimes the words she’d get wrong were the ones she had just written out a hundred times and sometimes the words she’d get wrong were ones she had gotten right the last time.

On one occasion, when she was in grade six, the little girl got a hundred percent on a spelling test. It was the proudest moment of her life. She was even given a standing ovation by the rest of the class, who by then had come to realize that the little girl, for reasons that were beyond their ability to understand, simply could not spell.

And then an ‘expert’ came to the little girl’s school and met with her. He, in his profound wisdom, told the teachers and the little girl’s parents, that the only reason the little girl couldn’t read or spell was because she didn’t want to read or spell.

Fortunately, the little girl’s parents thought that the expert was stupid and completely dismissed him. They believed that their little girl was both intelligent and doing her best - and they never, ever let her believe otherwise.

The little girl went on to earn three university degrees and has currently been practicing law for more than ten years. In her spare time, she writes. Why? Because it’s a challenge. She loves exercising her imagination and the best way to do that is to put things down on paper. Now, she still struggles constantly with both spelling and grammar. She tries her best, and has had some incredible support from people to help her with both. But she knows she will never be perfect. Why? Because she has dyslexia. Experts didn’t know about dyslexia when the little girl was growing up and so they decided that she was simply not trying or that she was stupid.

As you’ve probably guessed by now, that little girl is me. I try to get my spelling and grammar right. And I always use my spell-checker. And I have two of the most patient Beta readers alive. But when people indicate that they want me to be perfect when it comes to spelling or grammar, or never mix up my words, I know they are asking the impossible.

I think that if someone is doing their best, they should be congratulated. They should always be encouraged to do better. But no one is perfect. And if you write a story that hooks into my curiosity or my imagination, it doesn’t matter to me if you forget a comma or make a grammatical error. Just entertain me and do your best and I’ll be happy with your writing.

Just my two cents.

ML Thompson(who loves her parents to death)