I'm curious about the level of perfection readers - and writers, for that matter - expect within stories that are posted. I'm not talking about the expectation for correct grammar and fairly good spelling that we all prefer to help us enjoy a story. I'm talking about the nitpicks. How...nitpick-y are you? And writers, how do you feel about these nitpicks?

Of course, discussion is always welcome.

Lynn

I'm so terribly nitpicky. I don't point everything out - unless it's somethying really obvious, I let it slide, but I almost always notice.

In grammar and spelling, I'm ten times worse. Again, I don't point everything out, but a missing comma or misspelt word always bother me. I always cringe when I find mistakes in my friends' online journal entries. In stories too - I don't start avoiding certain writers, but it bothers me.

I proofread all of my emails, entries, and posts, until I am positively sure I am typo and mistake free. 'Course, not saying I never make any mistakes - I'm not perfect, but not if I can help it.

I'm not trying to scare writers by this, by the way - most writers in this fandom almost never make mistakes anyway.

Julie

I'm not exactly sure how nitpicky you mean, but I'll try to answer.

I admit, I don't always catch mistakes. Grammar and spelling, as most people will agree, can make and break a story. All too often, if there are a certain number of mistakes in the first few paragraphs, I abandon the story. A few I can let slip by, because even a good eye can miss a few mistakes.

Going beyond that, though, plot points sometimes slip by me. Granted, if things don't make sense, I'll stop. Gross out of character reactions? I'll stop. I usually won't bother commenting on that particular story. But, then, I often forget to comment anyway, so that's not a big point.

The few times I've actually noticed a glaring error, I've let the author know, so they can fix it.

I'm much more nitpicky with published authors than I am with fanfic writers. I see it like this: if I'm actually paying money to read a book, and if the author is getting money for having written it, I expect her/him to have done her/his research and got things right. I have little tolerance for glaring errors of spelling, grammar and punctuation in published fiction, and none at all for errors which demonstrate that the author seems to have done no basic research on the topic s/he is writing about. (Anyone who's read any of my Amazon reviews will be aware of that! ), confusion of similar words (eg diffuse instead of defuse, adverse instead of averse) - that I really get thrown out of a story. At that point I start skimming rather than reading or, if it's really distracting, just give up.

Do I point errors out? There, it depends on the author. I know that some authors are comfortable with having errors pointed out in feedback folders - though I would tend not to point out tiny typos. With some others, I might email or catch them on IRC. And with others still, I simply feel that I don't know them enough to take the risk that they might be hurt or offended.

Now, errors of fact - eg an incident attributed to one episode which actually happened in another, or a reference to something which I know is inaccurate - I probably would point these kind of things out in a feedback folder, unless, again, I was unsure how the author would react.

Bottom line? Yes, I'm nitpicky. But I don't always let it show!


Wendy

I think I'd have to agree with Wendy on this one. I have a greater reaction to mistakes and typos in published work. For some reason they glare at me. Perhaps it irks me that they have editors and other paid people who are supposed to catch those things. A typo may slip through, but when its get to be numerous, it can be annoying.

In fanfic, I'm less nitpicky, although a piece that is riddled with errors in every line is pretty hard to get through and I will probably abandon it. I'm not too bothered with mis-characterizations- unless the character isn't consistent in the story. I think that it can be interesting to read the different takes on the characters.

As for my own errors, I try to read and proof everything but if I do miss something, I like to be told about it. Usually it's just a smack on the forehead "d'oh" and a quick change.

~sunkist

I am VERY nit-picky. Actually, it's one of the reasons I don't comment much. There was one story that had 1 throw away line about the nervous system. But it waa WRONG. And I couldn't read the rest of the story because I was so put off. So I just stopped commenting unles I can say YAY GREAT STORY!

I would love it if people did comment as constrctively as they can (read nit-picky) on my stories. It helps me learn as a writer.

- Laura

In my opinion, the message boards are here for our stories to be posted in a final draft form to get honest comments, so that we can give them a last polish before they go to the Archive and get cast in stone. I'd feel cheated if my work only ever got "nice story, write more" comments.

I'm nitpicky in the sense that I will notice practically every mechanical error (grammar, spelling, punctuation) in a story, and they will pull my attention off the story and onto the writing. If there are more than about one or two errors per paragraph, like Wendy I'll either give up reading or skim - there's no hope I'll be able to concentrate on the actual story.

That doesn't mean I'll point them out. That (imho) is a BR's job, and it should be done in email, not in public. If there are just a couple of errors in a story by a solid writer, though, I'll probably point them out on the assumption that the BR missed them. I'll usually do that by email, too, because not everyone shares my passion for editing. Besides, the writer may want to tell me to take a hike.

Errors of fact, characterisation, plot inconsistencies - those are fair game for the feedback folder, and I'll definitely point out anything I see (unless someone else has done so - then I'll refrain from jumping on the bandwagon).

As far as my stories go, I definitely want to hear about any of the above - unless it's a "correction" of a UK spelling or (in narration) phrasing. I try to get the dialogue sounding American, but for the rest I write in British English. Of course, if it's something that gives a completely different impression in AE (like "solicitor" or, um, "beaver" ) then I do want to know.

Feedback folder or email? Well, if it's an obvious typo, either is fine. If you don't like my use of commas, though, email is better - because as my long-suffering GEs know, I will almost certainly argue. If it's not a mechanical error, please feel free to point it out in the feedback folder - that's what it's there for, and the resulting discussions can be great!

One more observation - what goes around, comes around. I'm uncomfortably aware that while I post my stories here and ask for detailed, constructive comment, I don't often take the time to give the same care and attention to other writers' precious babies. It's something I really ought put more effort into!

Mere

I have a confession to make: I enjoy spotting errors.

Okay, that's not strictly true. In published work, if I spot the odd mechanical error (useful phrase, Mere!), I get a perverse little thrill for knowing that I just got one over on the professionals. I've never been unlucky enough to read a published book with lots of errors, so I've never reached the level of annoyance and/or disgust with these types of errors, although I suspect I probably would.

Here, I'm pretty much like Wendy. I spot a lot of mechanical errors which I just keep quiet about. I think the main purpose of these boards is to deliver feedback on characterisation, plot, story-telling technique, and so on, rather than the mechanicals. Perversely, I'm more likely to point out such errors if there's only one or two in a given section. More than that, and I'd use up all my feedback giving editing notes rather than critiquing content, so, as I said, I keep quiet.

I treat writers as I'd like to be treated myself - ie, I don't want my feedback hijacked by lots of typo and grammar corrections. The odd one here and there is fine, but leave the rest to my BR and/or GE, please.

Edit: I cannot *believe* I spelt 'grammar' with an 'e'! Yikes, how embarrassing!!!!
Yvonne

I am wondering, how do people who write in British English feel about introspection? Is that okay to write in UK English? It tends to draw me out of the story a lot because I don't think any American (and Lois and Clark are Americans) would think in British English, yet I have seen it more than once. I tend to be verh nit-picky about what sort of things an American character would never say and never think. But I rarely point them out because I don't want to be flamed. After all, I am a stupid, not well read, American. But it is generally something that throws me out of a story more than anything else. However, if I am beta reading, I would always point it out. But I've only ever beta read for Americans and people who are EFL so I haven't had that problem.

Laura

I'd treat introspection the same as dialogue and say that the optimum is US English if you're dealing with American characters. Introspection is direct thought from the characters - internal dialogue in other words - so of course it jars if an American is thinking in non-US terms.

Narrative is somewhere where I believe the author has the choice to use whichever brand of English they feel most comfortable with. But dialogue and introspection do, for me at least, require using the English of the character in question.

On the broader topic, I've always preferred to have typos and suchlike mentioned on irc or by email. Only because I don't really think it's of vital importance or any real interest to anyone but me if I've missed that I've written "his dress" <g> instead of hers, before posting.

And it is more interesting as an author to find comments in my comment folder about plot, characterisation etc etc than the nuts and bolts things that only take a second to fix in the file.

Plot holes and that kind of thing are a different kettle of fish to pointing out typos for me. The former I'd definitely want to know about and don't mind at all if they're pointed out on the mbs. Especially as it often gives some very kind reader the opportunity to come and explain why it's not a plot hole long before I need to come into the folder banging my head on the table and wondering how on earth I'm going to fix that one. I always like the easy solution. Especially if it's someone else doing the hard work on the solving.

Oh and I'd always, always want to know if I've used a UK English word or phrase out of place and what the US equivalent is. That's why I've always tried to have at least one US beta whenever I can.

LabRat

If you came over to my house, I think you would find it to be fairly neat and clean. As long as you didn't check the closets, or heaven forbid, under the beds. And if you were looking for dust, you'd find it, I'm sure, in places I haven't thought to clean. But for the most part the overall impression would be passable.

That's exactly how I write. And how I read. I tend not to see the mistakes of others, gloss on over, because I'm looking at the big picture. If I do notice, unless it really yanks me out of the story, I just shrug and know that's a part of writing.

Which is why threads like this intimidate me. As has what I've noticed recently in some feedback threads- the highlighting of minor errors.

This is just me, but I know very well I could never stand up to close scrutiny by the grammar police. And I wouldn't want to try. That doesn't mean I'm not open to correction; I certainly am. But if it's something small that doesn't kill the scene, I'd rather be given a pass. If I thought my every post had to be letter perfect, I'd never get anything out there.

If, however, I had a pulls-you-from-the-moment mistake, something that stops a reader and makes them work to understand it, I would welcome being told and told quickly!!

CC

Narrative would also tend to be the same as the focus character. For instance, if you're writing from Lois' point of view, American English would be used. Nigel St. John's point of view would be British English. So if you're following Lois around, she'd put something into the trunk of the car. If you were following Nigel, he'd put something into the boot. (Right?)

It's no wonder the word "whilst" bugs me in other fandoms, since it's American characters. We don't use that word!

I don't think I'm that demanding of a reader. At least, not where typos/grammar are concerned -- as long as it reaches the "generally passable" standard and doesn't dip into "barely readable" territory

If I see a typo in a posted story, I'd want to tell the author (if it were my story, I'd want it fixed asap) but I'd do it privately (email or IRC), and not make a big deal out of it. "Hey, typo alert -- this looked weird, was it really what you meant to say?" If it's an author I don't know particularly well, I try to *always* remember to say some positive things about the story, too. With friends, it's different. I can be rude to them because they already know I'm enjoying the story & like their writing generally.

But I'm not hypersensitive to misplaced commas, for instance -- sometimes I notice them, sometimes I don't, but nearly all the time I just don't care

The British/American phrasing can jar me out of the story momentarily, especially if it would mean something else to an American ("he didn't like her apartment, so he knocked her flat"). I think I have a decent grasp of distinctly British phrases & usages (thank you, Doctor Who! ) I might or might not point it out to the author, though, depending on a multitude of things. Come to think of it, this might be how I started beta-ing for Wendy... But anyway, my attitude is always that I can provide the writers with info, but they may or may not change anything, and that's okay, either way.

PJ

Karen and Laura raise interesting points about the language and idiom of introspection and narrative which have long perplexed me. Should introspection be written in the same language and idiom as the character who's doing the thinking? What about narrative?

Most puzzling to me is how you distinguish narrative from introspection. Sometimes it's obvious, but sometimes, I think the edges are very blurry. Here's a few examples from my own work, and I'd be interested to see whether people class them as introspection or narrative:

1. He could trace the point at which he became a junkie back to a nanosecond in time. It hadn’t been the day he’d discovered red kryptonite; hadn’t even been the day after he’d recovered from that first hit. No, it had been the split second after Wells had told him that, after a year of searching, Lois was nowhere to be found.

2. The trouble was, oblivion didn’t always stop conveniently when it was time to go to work. Sometimes he was late, and sometimes he was still a little too oblivious when he got to work. Worse still, oblivion sometimes wore off too soon during the working day, leaving him struggling against a near-overwhelming tide of despair during the afternoon.

This wasn’t in the plan, if plan there was. No, the idea was to be totally pain-free at home, but for the effects to dilute down to a cosy feeling of well-being during the day.

3. He pondered George’s question. It was hard to imagine his life without Superman, but he supposed that logically, he’d been sort of okay when he’d just been plain old Clark Kent – he hadn’t needed a Lois Lane back then.

4. George was on cloud nine when he heard. “Way to go, buddy!” he said. “She sounds great.”

She was. Clark really liked her. She was as sharp as a razor, held strong convictions – not all of which he agreed with, but enough that they could find common ground – had a good sense of humour and shared a lot of his eclectic tastes in music and movies. Not only that, but she looked pretty stunning, too. Shoulder-length, wavy blonde hair, intelligent blue eyes, fine, youthful features and generous lips.

5. He stared balefully at his phone. It had been lurking there for days, daring him to pick it up. Today, he’d tried taking a shower, changing out of his work clothes, watching part of a ball game on TV, but it still sat there clamouring at him to pick up the receiver and dial. The darned thing even had her number programmed into its memory. No excuse not to phone her right this minute, really.

Yvonne

Lynn, the threads you start turn into such interesting discussions! How do you do it?

Karen hit the nail on the head, according to what my reading on point-of-view tells me. This is the fundamental difference between third-person-omniscient and third-person-limited: in limited, everything you write is actually happening inside a single character's head, while in omni, although you can see the characters' thoughts, the story is being told in a single neutral voice. (By neutral I mean independent of any one character, rather than having no opinion.)

So everything written in limited pov ought to be in the pov character's "voice", complete with opinions, turn of phrase and accent. There isn't really any firm border between "narration" and "introspection" - you're writing what the character sees (narration), what they think about what they see (in between), and what they think about other stuff that's been going on (introspection), all mixed up.

A really good writer, writing the typical fanfic with alternating sections in Clark's and Lois's points of view, would produce a distinct "voice" for each section, so that you could look at any paragraph in isolation and tell which character's pov it was in.

Going back to Laura's question - while I intend to try and do this with my novel, it's not something I'm at all interested in doing for my fanfic. It would involve writing in American throughout all my stories, and that's just not something I'm prepared to do. :p I'd rather practise writing as well as I can in my own style, and lose a few readers who can't cope with the characters' introspection having a British flavour, than expend a lot of effort going up what is ultimately a blind alley for me.

Mere

I'm glad I read this thread, as I have, on occassion, pointed out grammatical errors. I had always been under the impression that this type of feedback was welcome. Now that I understand it can be not only unwelcome, but downright annoying, I will cease and desist! I'll let the betas and GE's worry about that.

Normally, I do not notice errors, unless it is something jarring. Usually, I am so involved in the story, that my eye reads what the author intended, rather than what was actually written.

I do notice the language differences (BE vs. AE). If the character is speaking, it takes me out of the story, which I admit bothers me. I can't recall an example of this happening during introspection, but if it did, I would have the same reacton. If it is in the narrative, I'd probably smile to myself because I noticed the odd word (odd to me!), but it wouldn't bother me.

- Vicki

I have to admit to being obsessive about nits, especially in stories that have been GE'd and are in the Archive. But I know that it's very hard to get everything just right. I go over my stories a jillion times to get sentences just right and pick up punctuation errors.

Because of my vision, I tend to miss things. I sometimes can't tell if there is a comma where it should be or one where it shoudn't without blowing the screen up to 22 pt. type. I have to count on my GE to find those typos for me. Even then, things will slip through.I really appreciate it when readers point out errors especially when it's done courteously. Case in point: I recently had some very nice feedback on The Portrait. At the end, the reader pointed out in a humorous way, that I had misspelled Anthony in referring to Sir Anthony Haopkins. I had looked at that entry a hundred times and never noticed it, and many people read the story but never mentioned it. Someday when posting to the Archive is very slow, I'll correct that.

When I post to the MB's I'm looking not so much for nits, but for holes in the story, but I don't mind a little nit-picking so long as it's good natured and couched courteously.

As for introspection, it has to be in the voice of the character or it becomes a boring ramble.

Jude

I hope my comments didn't leave this general impression, but if they did I want to clarify and apologize, Vicki.

I love to tell a story, plain and simple. But I suffer from Comma Placement Syndrome (there is no cure, the harder I think about it, the worse it gets), readers could cut themselves on my jagged sentence fragments, and Wendy won't BR for me because of my ellipse dependency.

Therefore, a close, grammatical reading of my stuff would no doubt turn up a treasure trove of sins. That's fair, and I'm open to being corrected, absolutely.

What I wouldn't want to see, not in mine or in anyone else's feedback, would be comments that focused more on grammar than on story.

I hope I didn't hurt your feelings, or make you feel unwelcome. I'm speaking entirely from my own insecurities, especially when I read this thread and see how many on here consider themselves picky!

CC

Gosh, so many interesting things going on in here.

First of all, the BE versus AE discussion. I'm 100% all for the character's nationality driving their dialogue. If it is Clark or Lois or Perry speaking, I expect to hear American English, and words or phrases that they would not use do sound tend to jar me. If it were Nigel St. John, I'd expect British English, but oddly, I would not notice as much if he used something very un-British. I mean, maybe if he said "Lex, dude, you gotta chill out!" I'd call foul <g>.

As for narrative and introspection, I think I'm undecided . I would imagine that the person who's POV the segment uses would drive the English used, however, in a million years I'd never be able to write pages and pages of well-written non-American English that conveyed thought and narrative. This is a hats off to all of the non-American English writers who pull that off so well in LnC fic.

But I do give it a try - for example, in my latest story, when I have to write from one of the Australian character's POV, I try very hard to have them "think" things they would naturally say. Or at least I try to have them use their words for things when they differ from my words.

For example, in this paragraph, I have the Australian acting and introspecting:
He jumped down into her unit, wincing as he crushed glass beneath his shoes. He’d made a bloody mess.

If it were Clark in this scene, I'd write it this way:
He jumped down into her apartment, wincing as he crushed glass beneath his shoes. He’d made a big mess.

BTW - Yvonne, I would classify your sample paragraphs as follows, but my answers are no where near definitive because I'm sure each has his/her own interpretation:
1 - narrative
2 - narrative but second paragraph seems introspective
3 - introspective
4 - introspective
5 - introspective

I guess the reason that I'm not hard-sold on the idea of "It's an American show so therefore the writer must use all American English" is because I don't think writers work that way. Part of the flavor of a story is the words chosen, and being a BE speaker or a AE speaker has a great affect on that choice. Besides, in the end, it doesn't really change my enjoyment of a story if the writing is BE over AE, and that's what I look for. I certainly would never stop reading a story I was otherwise enjoying simply because a certain word - correctly used or not - jarred me out of a story. If I were that sensitive, I'd never be able to read anything. As far as I'm aware all writers are human and therefore will make mistakes at some point or another.

On the nitpicking issue, I don't mind if someone points out an error when it does change the story or is really wrong - like using a wrong word (affect instead of effect) or using the wrong pronoun (Clark adjusted her jockstrap. Huh?). Or if I've spelled something horribly or have a major type-O. But when it comes to issues where it could simply be a BE versus an AE thing, I'd rather hope that the reader could let it go.

The one thing sure to get my writing panties in a big knot is when a reader never offers feedback then swoops down out of the blue to say "you spelled that wrong" or doesn't post any feedback within a post other than to point out errors. I'm not talking about expecting all glowing praise and then an error notification. I just mean that if the reader has nothing at all to say about the story except that they happened to catch a type-O, I'd much rather have that information sent to me via e-mail.

As for my own level of nitpickyness, I tend to be very lenient. I might notice an error but would rarely think to point it out unless, again, I think it actually changes the meaning of the story. I figure my job is to write feedback as it pertains to the story, characterizations, plot issues and general feelings and impressions. I leave the spell-check and grammar corrections to the GEs because, frankly, I don't think it's much fun to have to keep my eyes peeled for that kind of stuff.

Perhaps the most diplomatic way for readers and writers is a little behind-the-scenes pre-story communication. If a particular reader noticed several errors in one of my stories and felt compelled to suggest changes, I would feel much more receptive if they asked "Do you mind if I bring your attention to these nipticks?" While my beta readers are worth their weight in pure, solid gold for the help they give to me in regards to story, characterizations and getting me out of all kinds of jams, I don't rely on them to catch every type-O. I'd much rather have them get into the groove of reading, so swept away by the story that they don't have the inclination to stop and say "that should be an 'e' not an 'a'". So it is nice to have a "nitpicker" eye to give it that final polish.

Lynn

And please do remember that the author also has input on the final version of an Archive story.

If an error is still in there, it's not always because the GE missed it but because they pointed it out, the author refused to change it, and it wasn't considered bad enough to merit a rejection of the story or the inclusion of an EIC editing disclaimer in the story file.

Vicki, I don't think that pointing out grammatical errors, tyos etc is at all unwelcome or unappreciated for the majority of authors posting on these mbs. I think most of us welcome it. Whether we welcome it on the mbs or privately, for whatever reason, is a separate issue, I think.

I'd certainly be more than delighted if you were to email me with a typo you'd spotted while reading one of my stories on the mbs. Beta readers and GEs can't be expected to catch everything. Not until we make them robotic at least. With the best will in the world and no matter how many times it's proofed, something will always slip through.

LOL, Lynn, I'm with you there. Of course, the EIC in me <g> should probably step in here to remind all authors that stories should be spellchecked before they're submitted to the Archive. At the very least. We like to make things as easy as possible for our GEs.

LabRat

I'm a tad shy about emailing people from the boards. And if I'm insecure about emailing someone here out of the blue, even more so to email them to point out an error in their story! It honestly never occurred to me to do that. I just thought that these boards were the appropriate place for all feedback, including the 'proof-reading' kind.

I'm not offended or upset to learn that it is not appropriate to do this, and if my first post implied that I was, it was simply a poor choice of words on my part. I just meant that, now that I know, I won't do it anymore!

- Vicki

I've only emailed one author about a story and it was one on the archives. The story is THE ELEVATOR. At the end of the story they are parked outside of Clark's apartment and they are going to go into his apartment and then suddenly the author has them in Lois' apartment. I never heard back and it is still posted with the error. So I made the correction on the copy I saved to disk.

When I find new stories posted I save them to zip disks. When I open them in Microsoft Word, to read at my leisure, I always run spell check on them first. I find trying to read something with spelling errors very distracting. I guess that comes from being a secretary at a university 10 years. In fact have a dictionary/thesaurus program on my computer so I can look up definitions if I don't know the word used in a story.

So to all you authors out there keep writing, please keep your story line straight and so I don't get distracted by your spelling errors I'll keep running spell check before I start reading. That is easy the hard part is writing the story to begin with. So here is to you --

Unfortunately for those writers that English is a second language I have to say if their grasp of of the language is really bad I don't read their stories. I find it to distracting to follow the story line when their grasp of the language is so poor. I can only remember 1 or 2 stories that I have not read because of this. If I'm trying to make sense of the sentences posted I can't follow the story.

I'm not criticizing them, they just need the help of a Beta Reader who is well versed in both their native language and English. I'm not good at languages so I applaud them for trying.

I tend to be very nitpicky with my own stories. I write with the spell checker on and go back a couple of times to check for anything it missed before posting stories online.

As for other stories, people are human, so if someone makes one or two errors in a story and they don't interfere with the flow, it doesn't bug me.

If the story is badly written and there are dozens of typos that a spell checker or decent beta reader would have caught, and I'm reading it on a site like fanfiction.net, then I might say something like "You might want to get a beta reader." But I won't point out every little thing they did wrong. IMHO, beta readers are the ones who are supposed to nitpick and point out everything before the story is posted.

I am also way more nitpicky about published writers and professional journalists. In fact, I e-mailed my local paper when they had a typo in one of their headlines on their website the other day. It was the kind of thing a spell checker would have caught. I have also found typos in published novels and cringed. I think the standards for professionals are higher, though.

As for constructive criticism, I don't mind when people nicely point out something obvious so I can fix it. However, I'd rather get feedback on plot, characterization, etc.

Just catching up with this.
When I saw the subject heading I thought I knew what 'nitpicking' was, did the poll, and then I started to read.

So many different defintions lurk beneath the responses. So ... nitpicking is not objecting to major grammar and spelling; oh, wait a minute it is; no, it's the typos; no, no, nothing minor like that - it's plot and charcterization issues; POV, that's what it is; nope nothing that big, just the odd factual errror; uh uh, it's the punctuation and the commas.

It's been fun to read all the responses, but now I need to know how to undo all my answers to the poll itself, because now I have no idea.

Think my answer is it depends, maybe, sometimes, only when I'm betaing, and never on Sunday.

cc m

For me, it's like this...

When I read, some errors jump out at me. I can't help it. No one's writing is perfect, least of all mine, but when I see something, it jolts me. I just can't help but notice. (I wish that worked with my own writing, but when I try to edit something I've written, I tend to somehow skip over my own mistakes. It's very frustrating.)

I'm more forgiving of mistakes from writers whose native language isn't English, and I'm also more likely to speak up about an error if a story's overall quality is high. In a way, the fewer the mistakes, the more they stand out.

I also like to think of the boards version of a story as being in the later stages of editing. If it's here, then it's probably had a certain amount of polish -- enough to make it publically presentable -- but there's still room for tweaks, edits, and improvements before it hits the archive.

What I point out varies. If I really like something but there are a few minor things that jumped out at me (typos, grammar glitches, minor points of confusion, etc), then I'm perfectly willing to add them into a comments post as an (hopefully small) aside. If I know of an author's preferences, I'll certainly take that into account before doing so.

For myself, I like to have errors in my stories pointed out so I can fix them (or at least have that option, depending on whether or not I agree that it needs fixing). I don't mind having them pointed out in the comments thread, but privately (IRC, email, etc) works, too. So, I guess I tend to follow the Golden Rule there. The problem with the Golden Rule is that my preferences aren't always shared. The rule really should be something more along the lines of "Do unto others as, to the best of your knowledge and within the bounds of reason and morality, they would have you do unto them." If an author doesn't state a preference ("I need as much help as I can get!" "All comments welcome." "Be gentle." etc.), however, I have to either guess or assume that they'd want basically what I'd want in the same situation.

Paul

Lynn, what do *you* mean by a nitpick? You said not grammar and spelling. So did you mean writing style issues, or characaterization, or plot holes, or fact errors? Or...?

And when you wrote "expect" - were you getting at asking the point at which a reader stops reading a story?

cc m

I think you just answered the question, Carol...

Mere

I did?? puzzled

cc m

Carol, you bring up a very good question. What exactly is "nitpicking"? And I suppose there are as many answers as there are readers and writers.

For the purposes of this poll, I'll give you my definition. Or perhaps, maybe it's easier if I tell you what I've always expected during the different stages of my writing a story.

When I write something and send it to my beta readers, I expect them to help me locate plot holes and call out any serious story and/or characterization issues. If they happen to notice a mis-spelling or grammatical error or type-O, I'm always thankful when they point it out. I like to have as close to a perfect copy as I can manage before posting to the boards.

When I post to the boards, my expectations of any feedback I receive are along the lines of general feelings/thoughts about the story, as well as pointing out plot issues, story problems and characterization mistakes. I also am glad for the added bonus of the vast intellect of the readers, appreciating very much when they point out stuff that I've gotten wrong on a factual level. For example, if I've had Martha undergo some medical procedure and have really botched it, I'm so thankful if DocJill will pipe up and say "No way. That could never happen."

What I define as "nitpicks" at that stage are when readers point out things like spelling errors or tiny grammatical issues (missing/extra comma, the like). This includes American English usage versus Other English usage, unless I'm trying to sound British and have gotten it all wrong or have totally misused some phrase. And while I certainly need to know that these problems are within the story and need to be fixed, it's when the feedback starts to revolve more around the type-Os than the story itself that I start to flinch.

Finally, in the last stage of story after I've sent it for GEing before archiving, that's when I expect the nitpicking to be at the very highest level. I want to know every mistake in the story so I can fix them.

Like I said, I'm sure others in this fandom would think that pointing out any story problem is nitpicking while others would think that no detail is too small to deserve critique. It's pretty a wide definition.

As for the question about my use of "expect", I'm not sure which context you mean (I'm growing daft in my old age . When I read a story, I expect a fairly clean version, with the most minimal type-Os, spelling errors, etc. If I'm reading something and every other sentence contains a problem, I become too absorbed in the errors that I can no longer focus on the story and usually have to stop reading. If I'm reading a story with virtually no errors at all, when I stumble on one I usually just skim right over it. Does that answer your question??

Lynn

One thing I meant to say earlier and forgot all about. I think pointing out the minor typos etc in a feedback folder sometimes holds a danger that affects our fandom perhaps a little more than many.

Here in FoLCdom, we have a lot of people who find language fascinating, right down to its bones, and who are always up for a roll up the sleeves, get down to the nitty gritty, discussion on the finer points of this topic. It doesn't take much to engage a grammar debate on these mbs.

And for the most part, that's really great. This has been a boon for authors in this fandom for many years, giving us a huge pool of 'expert' opinion to call on. And it's always nice that we have people who care so much about writing - some of the other fandoms I've visited over the years could benefit from that. :p

But when someone posts in a thread intended for comments about a story that the author "Missed a comma in this line..." the danger is that the folder very quickly veers off into Grammar Discussion 101 as others post their opinion and sight is lost of its original purpose.

From talking to other authors, here and there, there can be few things more disappointing for an author than seeing their comments thread jump seven or eight posts, rush in expecting to find lots of comments about the characters, plot or whatever on their story and find a debate on commas instead. Especially if they're less confident or new authors, just starting out.

I'm not saying this happens all the time, and I'm using an extreme example here, (plus this is only my opinion and that's worth darn sight less than two cents <g>) but it is another reason why I, personally, would tend, in the main, to choose irc or email for that kind of grammar nitpicking, instead of the comments folder. I'd be concerned about hijacking the thread.

YM, of course, MV.

Paul, does make a very good point though. Perhaps authors should state their nitpicking preferences at the head of a new story. <g> That way everyone gets what they expect. And want. (Although, I do recall a couple of incidents where authors asked for a complete goldstar service and then complained when they got it... <G>) That, though, would tend to be their problem, wouldn't it?



LabRat

If I may paraphrase - Lynn asked "Are you nitpicky?" and you said "What exactly do you mean by that?"

... Well, I thought it was funny...

Mere

ROTLMAO, Mere!! Guess we have all answered the question by this discussion. And I thought I wasn't nitpicky. /me goes to change her answer on the poll <g>.



Lynn

so embarrassed - shouldn't have asked

cc m

Very Very.

Question 1:
I am simply UNABLE to catch all the grammar/punctuation/etc. mistakes in a story. I am neither a native English speaker, nor is my English at such a high level. Not to mention, no one writes in Greek So this kind of errors I let slip. Besides, unless something's really glaring or has fallen into a category I know well, I'm not even sure it's a mistake...
As for plot, characterisation, writing in character etc.... well, I don't always catch these mistakes either. I'm not that good at writing this kind of thing, too.
I guess my answer to this question is something like, "I would be nitpickish if I could".

Question 2:
Generally, all I want from a story, no matter who wrote it, is to be decent where grammar etc. are concerned and to have something interesting to say (plot or plotless WAFFiness). So I don't have different expectations from different writers. I begin reading, and then... I see and I make up my mind.
I have to say, though, that even if I haven't liked, say, story A by X, it won't prevent me from giving a shot at other stories by X. Every story is different, and a writer has the right to improve. (Or, so I hope )

Question 3:
If you've seen an error in one of my stories, then, by all means, tell me!! I may not always agree, but I surely want to know, to receive other people's opinions and to make my story and my future efforts better. (And if I argue, please DON'T think I didn't appreciate your telling me what you think!)

Question 4:
Just as long as you tell me, it's fine.

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

Anna B. I've read a lot of your stories and your English seems pretty good. So either your English is better than you think it is or you have a great BetaReader. Anyway have enjoyed stories keep it up.

Thanks, kmar! Glad you think so.

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

Very true, kmar! I continue to be amazed by the standard of English usage among our EFL (English as a foreign language) members, in comments posted on the boards and in stories. It makes me feel so ashamed of my own very limited foreign language skills. Many of the non-native-speakers have an understanding of English grammar far exceeding that of native speakers! And given that we have talented EFL authors like Anna and Kaethel and Cristina around, I'm very grateful that they've chosen to write in my language!

Incidentally, the option in the poll about being less nitpicky with someone whose first language isn't English did make me wonder. I know at least one EFL writer who hates the thought of anyone 'making allowances' for the fact that English isn't her first language: she wants her stories to be judged on their merits, not on her country of origin, and she strives to have her work indistinguishable from that by a native speaker. How do other EFL writers feel about that option in the poll?


Wendy

This type of discussion really hooks into something inside of me. And so I thought about it for a long time and then I realized what it was. So let me tell you a story.

Once upon a time, in a land covered in snow and ice, lived a little girl. Now this little girl, along with everyone who started grade one, took an IQ test. And she did quite well. But then, when she was in grade two, she started failing school. In fact, she was doing so poorly that school authorities thought they must have made a mistake on her IQ test. She was sent back for more testing because they thought something must be wrong with her intelligence. She started having ulcers and used to beg her mother not to make her go to school. Her mother, often in tears, knew that her little girl had to go to school and so she made her go in spite of the constant stomach aches.

Authorities were baffled when their testing showed the same above average IQ for the little girl. And so, at the end of grade two, they decided to pass her into grade three. The little girl pleaded and begged with her parents not to make her go to grade three. This time her parents did intercede, fighting with school authorities to let the little girl repeat grade two. And in the end, they won and the little girl was allowed to repeat grade two.

In the years that followed, the little girl did much better in school. In fact, she excelled. Still, no matter what the little girl’s teachers or parents did, she couldn’t seem to learn to read or spell - at least not well. She would stumble over words and often get laughed at by other students when she couldn’t read.

But the little girl never gave up - primarily as a result of parents who believed in her intelligence and a mother who would spend hours with her every night practicing reading and spelling. Her mother would give her nightly spelling tests and then require that she write out each word she got wrong a hundred times. And then, once that was done, would give her the same test again. The odd thing was that she would still get words wrong - sometimes the words she’d get wrong were the ones she had just written out a hundred times and sometimes the words she’d get wrong were ones she had gotten right the last time.

On one occasion, when she was in grade six, the little girl got a hundred percent on a spelling test. It was the proudest moment of her life. She was even given a standing ovation by the rest of the class, who by then had come to realize that the little girl, for reasons that were beyond their ability to understand, simply could not spell.

And then an ‘expert’ came to the little girl’s school and met with her. He, in his profound wisdom, told the teachers and the little girl’s parents, that the only reason the little girl couldn’t read or spell was because she didn’t want to read or spell.

Fortunately, the little girl’s parents thought that the expert was stupid and completely dismissed him. They believed that their little girl was both intelligent and doing her best - and they never, ever let her believe otherwise.

The little girl went on to earn three university degrees and has currently been practicing law for more than ten years. In her spare time, she writes. Why? Because it’s a challenge. She loves exercising her imagination and the best way to do that is to put things down on paper. Now, she still struggles constantly with both spelling and grammar. She tries her best, and has had some incredible support from people to help her with both. But she knows she will never be perfect. Why? Because she has dyslexia. Experts didn’t know about dyslexia when the little girl was growing up and so they decided that she was simply not trying or that she was stupid.

As you’ve probably guessed by now, that little girl is me. I try to get my spelling and grammar right. And I always use my spell-checker. And I have two of the most patient Beta readers alive. But when people indicate that they want me to be perfect when it comes to spelling or grammar, or never mix up my words, I know they are asking the impossible.

I think that if someone is doing their best, they should be congratulated. They should always be encouraged to do better. But no one is perfect. And if you write a story that hooks into my curiosity or my imagination, it doesn’t matter to me if you forget a comma or make a grammatical error. Just entertain me and do your best and I’ll be happy with your writing.

Just my two cents.

ML Thompson(who loves her parents to death)

Wow, ML. I don't know who should be congratulated more - you or your parents. What a wonderful story of triumph! You should be so incredibly proud of yourself.

And you do an excellent job of putting this whole topic into perspective. Perfection is something we can all strive for, but it is highly doubtful that any of us will ever achieve it. Therefore, a bit of compassion expressed to fellow writers seems in order. Next time I'm feeling critical, I'm going to remember your story.



Lynn

FoLCs

Well, my point is that in three months around, I've improved more than in 10 (or more I can't remember) years of English courses.

I do not differentiate American English from British English so easily, but I read everything that passes through my screen.

Thanks to you, FoLCs, I'm a better writer now. So I have nothing to complain about.

MDL. (Who's thinking : Damn... I actually wrote all this and didn't run out of vocab???)

EDIT: I couldn't leave this behind.

I do too. It's harder when there are two things that go against you when you're writing, But like you, ML, I never give up!

To ML Thompson and to Mad Dog Lane

You are to be praised for your success. I have an older brother that had trouble in school even though he tested high on the IQ tests. My sister who is a special ed teacher said today he would be classified with a learning disability. Although I never asked her which one. I just know that he struggled all the way through 1-12 grades in school but did well in college finally.

As I've said before I would be happy to Beta Read for anyone.

If it's my story, I want that error gone, regardless of the type of error it is. I want to know about it and I want to fix it. Whether I'm notified publicly or privately, I don't care =P Criticism to me is a good thing -- it means I made somebody care enough to comment, and that means the world to me.

When I read what others have written, however, I'm different. If it's a characterization issue, and I just can't get around saying, "OMG Clark would *never* do that," or, "That is just *not* Lois," then I will not read it. Plausibility is an absolute must for me. If the writer can't make me believe something then I simply won't waste my time reading it. If someone can create a completely off-the-wall premise and make me buy it that means more to me than an unbelievable story with no typos and correct commas at every turn.

Grammatical stuff I am a lot more lenient with. As long as I don't have to waste a lot of energy trying to figure out what is being said then I'm fine with it. This is fanfiction, and a lot of folks tend to write as they speak, not as grammar would call for -- and that's fine with me.

There are some general basics that drive me bananas when people can't do them correctly -- like using they're, their, and there appropriately, through, throw, and threw, too, to, and two, knight, night... things like that... "A lot" is two words. It's is not possessive. Etc. Those are the only things that really bother me, although it takes a lot of occurrences before I will stop reading.

I try not to give corrections, however, unless I know the person writing well enough to know how they take criticsm, or when it's specifically solicited. People who write to this extent are usually writing for self-enjoyment in my experience, and if criticism will ruin that, far be it from me to contribute.

I tend not to critiscize others work, I have very bad grammar skills. And my spelling skills are on par. English, has never been my cup of tea. I have moments, of inspiration but where to put a comma. And word choice are not, something I ever learned. I'm a science girl first and formost. BUT I realise that not everyone has NOR wants to have the background and insight of Molecular Genetics (And since i'm not working in the field I am losing enough to go back to knowing about as much as High School Kids know these days) .

I emphasise the positive, because Yes I am lazy so stories that inspire me to comment, have made me smile at the very least. And I WILL gush praisingly if I am enthralled with a story pointing out many of the points which make the story meaningful to me.

I don't feel qualified to make corrections to anyone elses work. I use to have some common pet peeves. And if something is riddled with obvious errors. I will notice.

I generally don't bother to nitpick stories. I of course hypocritically welcome feedback if I ever choose to write (i'm not a writer) but, it needs to be phrased gently. I have an incredibly fragile ego so.....

songbird

Hey everyone!

I don't usually drop by the polls folder, but the words 'pedantic reader' caught my eye... so I dropped by .

I don't think I nitpick... Like Anna said, I make so many mistakes that I couldn't really start pointing out those others make. I must admit, though, that bad grammar and bad punctuation on a story are a major draw back.

Btw, Anna, your English was never bad... And you've improved a lot... I think I told Jose not so long ago. So definitely, not bad English at all!!!!!!!!!!!!! )... but that sure means a lot to me. Thanks, Wendy!

Cris