Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Fun with Polls Are You a Pedantic Reader?

I'm curious about the level of perfection readers - and writers, for that matter - expect within stories that are posted. I'm not talking about the expectation for correct grammar and fairly good spelling that we all prefer to help us enjoy a story. I'm talking about the nitpicks. How...nitpick-y are you? And writers, how do you feel about these nitpicks?

Of course, discussion is always welcome.

Lynn

I'm so terribly nitpicky. I don't point everything out - unless it's somethying really obvious, I let it slide, but I almost always notice.

In grammar and spelling, I'm ten times worse. Again, I don't point everything out, but a missing comma or misspelt word always bother me. I always cringe when I find mistakes in my friends' online journal entries. In stories too - I don't start avoiding certain writers, but it bothers me.

I proofread all of my emails, entries, and posts, until I am positively sure I am typo and mistake free. 'Course, not saying I never make any mistakes - I'm not perfect, but not if I can help it.

I'm not trying to scare writers by this, by the way - most writers in this fandom almost never make mistakes anyway.

Julie

I'm not exactly sure how nitpicky you mean, but I'll try to answer.

I admit, I don't always catch mistakes. Grammar and spelling, as most people will agree, can make and break a story. All too often, if there are a certain number of mistakes in the first few paragraphs, I abandon the story. A few I can let slip by, because even a good eye can miss a few mistakes.

Going beyond that, though, plot points sometimes slip by me. Granted, if things don't make sense, I'll stop. Gross out of character reactions? I'll stop. I usually won't bother commenting on that particular story. But, then, I often forget to comment anyway, so that's not a big point.

The few times I've actually noticed a glaring error, I've let the author know, so they can fix it.

I'm much more nitpicky with published authors than I am with fanfic writers. I see it like this: if I'm actually paying money to read a book, and if the author is getting money for having written it, I expect her/him to have done her/his research and got things right. I have little tolerance for glaring errors of spelling, grammar and punctuation in published fiction, and none at all for errors which demonstrate that the author seems to have done no basic research on the topic s/he is writing about. (Anyone who's read any of my Amazon reviews will be aware of that! ), confusion of similar words (eg diffuse instead of defuse, adverse instead of averse) - that I really get thrown out of a story. At that point I start skimming rather than reading or, if it's really distracting, just give up.

Do I point errors out? There, it depends on the author. I know that some authors are comfortable with having errors pointed out in feedback folders - though I would tend not to point out tiny typos. With some others, I might email or catch them on IRC. And with others still, I simply feel that I don't know them enough to take the risk that they might be hurt or offended.

Now, errors of fact - eg an incident attributed to one episode which actually happened in another, or a reference to something which I know is inaccurate - I probably would point these kind of things out in a feedback folder, unless, again, I was unsure how the author would react.

Bottom line? Yes, I'm nitpicky. But I don't always let it show!


Wendy

I think I'd have to agree with Wendy on this one. I have a greater reaction to mistakes and typos in published work. For some reason they glare at me. Perhaps it irks me that they have editors and other paid people who are supposed to catch those things. A typo may slip through, but when its get to be numerous, it can be annoying.

In fanfic, I'm less nitpicky, although a piece that is riddled with errors in every line is pretty hard to get through and I will probably abandon it. I'm not too bothered with mis-characterizations- unless the character isn't consistent in the story. I think that it can be interesting to read the different takes on the characters.

As for my own errors, I try to read and proof everything but if I do miss something, I like to be told about it. Usually it's just a smack on the forehead "d'oh" and a quick change.

~sunkist

I am VERY nit-picky. Actually, it's one of the reasons I don't comment much. There was one story that had 1 throw away line about the nervous system. But it waa WRONG. And I couldn't read the rest of the story because I was so put off. So I just stopped commenting unles I can say YAY GREAT STORY!

I would love it if people did comment as constrctively as they can (read nit-picky) on my stories. It helps me learn as a writer.

- Laura

In my opinion, the message boards are here for our stories to be posted in a final draft form to get honest comments, so that we can give them a last polish before they go to the Archive and get cast in stone. I'd feel cheated if my work only ever got "nice story, write more" comments.

I'm nitpicky in the sense that I will notice practically every mechanical error (grammar, spelling, punctuation) in a story, and they will pull my attention off the story and onto the writing. If there are more than about one or two errors per paragraph, like Wendy I'll either give up reading or skim - there's no hope I'll be able to concentrate on the actual story.

That doesn't mean I'll point them out. That (imho) is a BR's job, and it should be done in email, not in public. If there are just a couple of errors in a story by a solid writer, though, I'll probably point them out on the assumption that the BR missed them. I'll usually do that by email, too, because not everyone shares my passion for editing. Besides, the writer may want to tell me to take a hike.

Errors of fact, characterisation, plot inconsistencies - those are fair game for the feedback folder, and I'll definitely point out anything I see (unless someone else has done so - then I'll refrain from jumping on the bandwagon).

As far as my stories go, I definitely want to hear about any of the above - unless it's a "correction" of a UK spelling or (in narration) phrasing. I try to get the dialogue sounding American, but for the rest I write in British English. Of course, if it's something that gives a completely different impression in AE (like "solicitor" or, um, "beaver" ) then I do want to know.

Feedback folder or email? Well, if it's an obvious typo, either is fine. If you don't like my use of commas, though, email is better - because as my long-suffering GEs know, I will almost certainly argue. If it's not a mechanical error, please feel free to point it out in the feedback folder - that's what it's there for, and the resulting discussions can be great!

One more observation - what goes around, comes around. I'm uncomfortably aware that while I post my stories here and ask for detailed, constructive comment, I don't often take the time to give the same care and attention to other writers' precious babies. It's something I really ought put more effort into!

Mere

I have a confession to make: I enjoy spotting errors.

Okay, that's not strictly true. In published work, if I spot the odd mechanical error (useful phrase, Mere!), I get a perverse little thrill for knowing that I just got one over on the professionals. I've never been unlucky enough to read a published book with lots of errors, so I've never reached the level of annoyance and/or disgust with these types of errors, although I suspect I probably would.

Here, I'm pretty much like Wendy. I spot a lot of mechanical errors which I just keep quiet about. I think the main purpose of these boards is to deliver feedback on characterisation, plot, story-telling technique, and so on, rather than the mechanicals. Perversely, I'm more likely to point out such errors if there's only one or two in a given section. More than that, and I'd use up all my feedback giving editing notes rather than critiquing content, so, as I said, I keep quiet.

I treat writers as I'd like to be treated myself - ie, I don't want my feedback hijacked by lots of typo and grammar corrections. The odd one here and there is fine, but leave the rest to my BR and/or GE, please.

Edit: I cannot *believe* I spelt 'grammar' with an 'e'! Yikes, how embarrassing!!!!
Yvonne

I am wondering, how do people who write in British English feel about introspection? Is that okay to write in UK English? It tends to draw me out of the story a lot because I don't think any American (and Lois and Clark are Americans) would think in British English, yet I have seen it more than once. I tend to be verh nit-picky about what sort of things an American character would never say and never think. But I rarely point them out because I don't want to be flamed. After all, I am a stupid, not well read, American. But it is generally something that throws me out of a story more than anything else. However, if I am beta reading, I would always point it out. But I've only ever beta read for Americans and people who are EFL so I haven't had that problem.

Laura

I'd treat introspection the same as dialogue and say that the optimum is US English if you're dealing with American characters. Introspection is direct thought from the characters - internal dialogue in other words - so of course it jars if an American is thinking in non-US terms.

Narrative is somewhere where I believe the author has the choice to use whichever brand of English they feel most comfortable with. But dialogue and introspection do, for me at least, require using the English of the character in question.

On the broader topic, I've always preferred to have typos and suchlike mentioned on irc or by email. Only because I don't really think it's of vital importance or any real interest to anyone but me if I've missed that I've written "his dress" <g> instead of hers, before posting.

And it is more interesting as an author to find comments in my comment folder about plot, characterisation etc etc than the nuts and bolts things that only take a second to fix in the file.

Plot holes and that kind of thing are a different kettle of fish to pointing out typos for me. The former I'd definitely want to know about and don't mind at all if they're pointed out on the mbs. Especially as it often gives some very kind reader the opportunity to come and explain why it's not a plot hole long before I need to come into the folder banging my head on the table and wondering how on earth I'm going to fix that one. I always like the easy solution. Especially if it's someone else doing the hard work on the solving.

Oh and I'd always, always want to know if I've used a UK English word or phrase out of place and what the US equivalent is. That's why I've always tried to have at least one US beta whenever I can.

LabRat

If you came over to my house, I think you would find it to be fairly neat and clean. As long as you didn't check the closets, or heaven forbid, under the beds. And if you were looking for dust, you'd find it, I'm sure, in places I haven't thought to clean. But for the most part the overall impression would be passable.

That's exactly how I write. And how I read. I tend not to see the mistakes of others, gloss on over, because I'm looking at the big picture. If I do notice, unless it really yanks me out of the story, I just shrug and know that's a part of writing.

Which is why threads like this intimidate me. As has what I've noticed recently in some feedback threads- the highlighting of minor errors.

This is just me, but I know very well I could never stand up to close scrutiny by the grammar police. And I wouldn't want to try. That doesn't mean I'm not open to correction; I certainly am. But if it's something small that doesn't kill the scene, I'd rather be given a pass. If I thought my every post had to be letter perfect, I'd never get anything out there.

If, however, I had a pulls-you-from-the-moment mistake, something that stops a reader and makes them work to understand it, I would welcome being told and told quickly!!

CC

Narrative would also tend to be the same as the focus character. For instance, if you're writing from Lois' point of view, American English would be used. Nigel St. John's point of view would be British English. So if you're following Lois around, she'd put something into the trunk of the car. If you were following Nigel, he'd put something into the boot. (Right?)

It's no wonder the word "whilst" bugs me in other fandoms, since it's American characters. We don't use that word!

I don't think I'm that demanding of a reader. At least, not where typos/grammar are concerned -- as long as it reaches the "generally passable" standard and doesn't dip into "barely readable" territory

If I see a typo in a posted story, I'd want to tell the author (if it were my story, I'd want it fixed asap) but I'd do it privately (email or IRC), and not make a big deal out of it. "Hey, typo alert -- this looked weird, was it really what you meant to say?" If it's an author I don't know particularly well, I try to *always* remember to say some positive things about the story, too. With friends, it's different. I can be rude to them because they already know I'm enjoying the story & like their writing generally.

But I'm not hypersensitive to misplaced commas, for instance -- sometimes I notice them, sometimes I don't, but nearly all the time I just don't care

The British/American phrasing can jar me out of the story momentarily, especially if it would mean something else to an American ("he didn't like her apartment, so he knocked her flat"). I think I have a decent grasp of distinctly British phrases & usages (thank you, Doctor Who! ) I might or might not point it out to the author, though, depending on a multitude of things. Come to think of it, this might be how I started beta-ing for Wendy... But anyway, my attitude is always that I can provide the writers with info, but they may or may not change anything, and that's okay, either way.

PJ

Karen and Laura raise interesting points about the language and idiom of introspection and narrative which have long perplexed me. Should introspection be written in the same language and idiom as the character who's doing the thinking? What about narrative?

Most puzzling to me is how you distinguish narrative from introspection. Sometimes it's obvious, but sometimes, I think the edges are very blurry. Here's a few examples from my own work, and I'd be interested to see whether people class them as introspection or narrative:

1. He could trace the point at which he became a junkie back to a nanosecond in time. It hadn’t been the day he’d discovered red kryptonite; hadn’t even been the day after he’d recovered from that first hit. No, it had been the split second after Wells had told him that, after a year of searching, Lois was nowhere to be found.

2. The trouble was, oblivion didn’t always stop conveniently when it was time to go to work. Sometimes he was late, and sometimes he was still a little too oblivious when he got to work. Worse still, oblivion sometimes wore off too soon during the working day, leaving him struggling against a near-overwhelming tide of despair during the afternoon.

This wasn’t in the plan, if plan there was. No, the idea was to be totally pain-free at home, but for the effects to dilute down to a cosy feeling of well-being during the day.

3. He pondered George’s question. It was hard to imagine his life without Superman, but he supposed that logically, he’d been sort of okay when he’d just been plain old Clark Kent – he hadn’t needed a Lois Lane back then.

4. George was on cloud nine when he heard. “Way to go, buddy!” he said. “She sounds great.”

She was. Clark really liked her. She was as sharp as a razor, held strong convictions – not all of which he agreed with, but enough that they could find common ground – had a good sense of humour and shared a lot of his eclectic tastes in music and movies. Not only that, but she looked pretty stunning, too. Shoulder-length, wavy blonde hair, intelligent blue eyes, fine, youthful features and generous lips.

5. He stared balefully at his phone. It had been lurking there for days, daring him to pick it up. Today, he’d tried taking a shower, changing out of his work clothes, watching part of a ball game on TV, but it still sat there clamouring at him to pick up the receiver and dial. The darned thing even had her number programmed into its memory. No excuse not to phone her right this minute, really.

Yvonne

Lynn, the threads you start turn into such interesting discussions! How do you do it?

Karen hit the nail on the head, according to what my reading on point-of-view tells me. This is the fundamental difference between third-person-omniscient and third-person-limited: in limited, everything you write is actually happening inside a single character's head, while in omni, although you can see the characters' thoughts, the story is being told in a single neutral voice. (By neutral I mean independent of any one character, rather than having no opinion.)

So everything written in limited pov ought to be in the pov character's "voice", complete with opinions, turn of phrase and accent. There isn't really any firm border between "narration" and "introspection" - you're writing what the character sees (narration), what they think about what they see (in between), and what they think about other stuff that's been going on (introspection), all mixed up.

A really good writer, writing the typical fanfic with alternating sections in Clark's and Lois's points of view, would produce a distinct "voice" for each section, so that you could look at any paragraph in isolation and tell which character's pov it was in.

Going back to Laura's question - while I intend to try and do this with my novel, it's not something I'm at all interested in doing for my fanfic. It would involve writing in American throughout all my stories, and that's just not something I'm prepared to do. :p I'd rather practise writing as well as I can in my own style, and lose a few readers who can't cope with the characters' introspection having a British flavour, than expend a lot of effort going up what is ultimately a blind alley for me.

Mere

I'm glad I read this thread, as I have, on occassion, pointed out grammatical errors. I had always been under the impression that this type of feedback was welcome. Now that I understand it can be not only unwelcome, but downright annoying, I will cease and desist! I'll let the betas and GE's worry about that.

Normally, I do not notice errors, unless it is something jarring. Usually, I am so involved in the story, that my eye reads what the author intended, rather than what was actually written.

I do notice the language differences (BE vs. AE). If the character is speaking, it takes me out of the story, which I admit bothers me. I can't recall an example of this happening during introspection, but if it did, I would have the same reacton. If it is in the narrative, I'd probably smile to myself because I noticed the odd word (odd to me!), but it wouldn't bother me.

- Vicki

I have to admit to being obsessive about nits, especially in stories that have been GE'd and are in the Archive. But I know that it's very hard to get everything just right. I go over my stories a jillion times to get sentences just right and pick up punctuation errors.

Because of my vision, I tend to miss things. I sometimes can't tell if there is a comma where it should be or one where it shoudn't without blowing the screen up to 22 pt. type. I have to count on my GE to find those typos for me. Even then, things will slip through.I really appreciate it when readers point out errors especially when it's done courteously. Case in point: I recently had some very nice feedback on The Portrait. At the end, the reader pointed out in a humorous way, that I had misspelled Anthony in referring to Sir Anthony Haopkins. I had looked at that entry a hundred times and never noticed it, and many people read the story but never mentioned it. Someday when posting to the Archive is very slow, I'll correct that.

When I post to the MB's I'm looking not so much for nits, but for holes in the story, but I don't mind a little nit-picking so long as it's good natured and couched courteously.

As for introspection, it has to be in the voice of the character or it becomes a boring ramble.

Jude

I hope my comments didn't leave this general impression, but if they did I want to clarify and apologize, Vicki.

I love to tell a story, plain and simple. But I suffer from Comma Placement Syndrome (there is no cure, the harder I think about it, the worse it gets), readers could cut themselves on my jagged sentence fragments, and Wendy won't BR for me because of my ellipse dependency.

Therefore, a close, grammatical reading of my stuff would no doubt turn up a treasure trove of sins. That's fair, and I'm open to being corrected, absolutely.

What I wouldn't want to see, not in mine or in anyone else's feedback, would be comments that focused more on grammar than on story.

I hope I didn't hurt your feelings, or make you feel unwelcome. I'm speaking entirely from my own insecurities, especially when I read this thread and see how many on here consider themselves picky!

CC

Gosh, so many interesting things going on in here.

First of all, the BE versus AE discussion. I'm 100% all for the character's nationality driving their dialogue. If it is Clark or Lois or Perry speaking, I expect to hear American English, and words or phrases that they would not use do sound tend to jar me. If it were Nigel St. John, I'd expect British English, but oddly, I would not notice as much if he used something very un-British. I mean, maybe if he said "Lex, dude, you gotta chill out!" I'd call foul <g>.

As for narrative and introspection, I think I'm undecided . I would imagine that the person who's POV the segment uses would drive the English used, however, in a million years I'd never be able to write pages and pages of well-written non-American English that conveyed thought and narrative. This is a hats off to all of the non-American English writers who pull that off so well in LnC fic.

But I do give it a try - for example, in my latest story, when I have to write from one of the Australian character's POV, I try very hard to have them "think" things they would naturally say. Or at least I try to have them use their words for things when they differ from my words.

For example, in this paragraph, I have the Australian acting and introspecting:
He jumped down into her unit, wincing as he crushed glass beneath his shoes. He’d made a bloody mess.

If it were Clark in this scene, I'd write it this way:
He jumped down into her apartment, wincing as he crushed glass beneath his shoes. He’d made a big mess.

BTW - Yvonne, I would classify your sample paragraphs as follows, but my answers are no where near definitive because I'm sure each has his/her own interpretation:
1 - narrative
2 - narrative but second paragraph seems introspective
3 - introspective
4 - introspective
5 - introspective

I guess the reason that I'm not hard-sold on the idea of "It's an American show so therefore the writer must use all American English" is because I don't think writers work that way. Part of the flavor of a story is the words chosen, and being a BE speaker or a AE speaker has a great affect on that choice. Besides, in the end, it doesn't really change my enjoyment of a story if the writing is BE over AE, and that's what I look for. I certainly would never stop reading a story I was otherwise enjoying simply because a certain word - correctly used or not - jarred me out of a story. If I were that sensitive, I'd never be able to read anything. As far as I'm aware all writers are human and therefore will make mistakes at some point or another.

On the nitpicking issue, I don't mind if someone points out an error when it does change the story or is really wrong - like using a wrong word (affect instead of effect) or using the wrong pronoun (Clark adjusted her jockstrap. Huh?). Or if I've spelled something horribly or have a major type-O. But when it comes to issues where it could simply be a BE versus an AE thing, I'd rather hope that the reader could let it go.

The one thing sure to get my writing panties in a big knot is when a reader never offers feedback then swoops down out of the blue to say "you spelled that wrong" or doesn't post any feedback within a post other than to point out errors. I'm not talking about expecting all glowing praise and then an error notification. I just mean that if the reader has nothing at all to say about the story except that they happened to catch a type-O, I'd much rather have that information sent to me via e-mail.

As for my own level of nitpickyness, I tend to be very lenient. I might notice an error but would rarely think to point it out unless, again, I think it actually changes the meaning of the story. I figure my job is to write feedback as it pertains to the story, characterizations, plot issues and general feelings and impressions. I leave the spell-check and grammar corrections to the GEs because, frankly, I don't think it's much fun to have to keep my eyes peeled for that kind of stuff.

Perhaps the most diplomatic way for readers and writers is a little behind-the-scenes pre-story communication. If a particular reader noticed several errors in one of my stories and felt compelled to suggest changes, I would feel much more receptive if they asked "Do you mind if I bring your attention to these nipticks?" While my beta readers are worth their weight in pure, solid gold for the help they give to me in regards to story, characterizations and getting me out of all kinds of jams, I don't rely on them to catch every type-O. I'd much rather have them get into the groove of reading, so swept away by the story that they don't have the inclination to stop and say "that should be an 'e' not an 'a'". So it is nice to have a "nitpicker" eye to give it that final polish.

Lynn

And please do remember that the author also has input on the final version of an Archive story.

If an error is still in there, it's not always because the GE missed it but because they pointed it out, the author refused to change it, and it wasn't considered bad enough to merit a rejection of the story or the inclusion of an EIC editing disclaimer in the story file.

Vicki, I don't think that pointing out grammatical errors, tyos etc is at all unwelcome or unappreciated for the majority of authors posting on these mbs. I think most of us welcome it. Whether we welcome it on the mbs or privately, for whatever reason, is a separate issue, I think.

I'd certainly be more than delighted if you were to email me with a typo you'd spotted while reading one of my stories on the mbs. Beta readers and GEs can't be expected to catch everything. Not until we make them robotic at least. With the best will in the world and no matter how many times it's proofed, something will always slip through.

LOL, Lynn, I'm with you there. Of course, the EIC in me <g> should probably step in here to remind all authors that stories should be spellchecked before they're submitted to the Archive. At the very least. We like to make things as easy as possible for our GEs.

LabRat