Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Fun with Polls Definition of Introspection

I have a question for everyone because I had an intersting discussion last night about introspection and the question has been nagging on my mind .

If anyone has read any of my stories, you will know my answer.

- Laura

OK, I'm wasn't sure how to answer this. For Q1, I put A, because I usually use introspection to refer to a self-analysis, or contemplating and mulling over your own thoughts. But I only put A because you worded this as an either/or question. To be honest, I would have to admit that, when discussing fanfics, I use this word to refer both A *and* B.

For Q2, I had to put "other" only because I answered A up above. If you had included a "Both" for Q1, I would have put "essential" for Q2. But A, above, is not essential, since it's only one way of doing the job (B being the other way.) Does that make any sense?

Edited to add: And, I agree with Laura, below. You *can* have too much of a good thing!

- Vicki

The answer to question one is both. Both of those are introspection and it's a tell rather than a show mentality. Any writing professor will tell you that you need more showing than telling. While a little introspection is a good thing, it's never good when there's so much of it that it takes thirty pages for your character to walk downstairs. According to all of the writing professors I've ever had, there needs to be more action and narrative than introspection. Both they and all of my fiction writing manuals say that introspection should be used sparingly. *Some* is good, but pages and pages of it isn't.

Laura (who is majoring in Creative Writing)

I had to go with "other" for both questions.

Both of the options to the first question are forms of introspection. As to whether either is necessary, that rather depends on what story you are telling!

Some stories are not primarily about events, but about evaluating or reevaluating something. Introspection -- of one type or the other or possibly both -- would be rather necessary.

Some stories are all about what someone does or fails to do. Introspection may be used; or may be specifically omitted (for impact, to allow the reader to draw her own conclusions).

Many stories are both about events and reactions to them.

Guidelines are good; rigid adherence to them is rarely so. There are some impressive short stories that are solely introspective, just as there are some that have no introspection whatsoever.

I have to agree with everyone who has responded so far. I also believe that both A and B are forms of introspection, just a different way of going about it.

As for importance within a story, I believe that it is essential to a written story. Introspection gives insight into what a character thinks, feels, and believes about what is going on around them and within themselves. In the written form, lacking such insight to a character leaves a dry manuscript that reads like a screenplay. A screenplay is something that should be seen and not read, complete with visual and auditory imagery, which is the prime advantage the TV/movie medium has over the written work. Meanwhile introspection is a key tool for the written work.

On the other hand, it IS possible to overdo introspection. GASP! Yes, I know I've probably gotten myself in deep trouble here <bg>, but there is such a thing as too much.

There are examples of too much, for example, in the works of Anne Rice and Barbara Hambly, just to name two authors who stand out in my mind. The characters introspect so much that I lose track of what's been happening in their stories and need to go back dozens of pages to find out. Seventeen pages of the view from Louis' veranda in New Orleans and what he thinks of it in Interview with the Vampire is just TOO much.

While television has visual advantages, the written author's prime advantages are description and introspection, which allow understanding of a story and its characters you sometimes cannot even come close to in other media.

[side question] Roger, I only ever had that problem with one of Hambly's books (the one I never finished ). Several of her others that come to mind certainly don't have that difficulty. Did you have any particular ones in mind, or was it a general comment on her writing?
[/side question]

Rivka,
It's been at least five years since I've picked up a Hambly book so it's tough to cite chapter and verse. When I was reading her work, it did happen quite frequently, though not enough to keep me from reading.

Typically, she would have a character begin a sentence, spend about 10 pages thinking about something, and then pick up the sentence again. With that much space between completion of a sentence, it left me flipping back wondering how the sentence started.

Example of books of hers I've read are the Darwath Trilogy, which are among my favorites, the two sequels to the trilogy, Mother of Winter and Icefalcon's Quest (neither quite as good as the trilogy), the Silent Tower/Silicon Mage, Ladies of Mandrigyn/Witches of Wenshar, Dragonsbane (this one was chock full of excessive introspection, IIRC), her Star Trek novels (don't recall any excesses in these), and her first vampire book, Those Who Hunt the Night. I don't think I've read anything more of hers recently.

As for Anne Rice, it happened far too often making for very tough reading. After Queen of the Damned, I finally gave up on Rice novels as just too tedious.

P.S. Barbara Hambly is a very nice lady. She lives in LA and occasionally does English Regency dancing, which is where I met her.

My reply is Other... because I think that both options are useful in a story. If a story is primarily from one person's point of view, then the first option works well, if it is from an omnicient third person point of view, then the second one works. It's important to 'hear' a person's inner thoughts to understand their motivations. But I do have to say that too much introspection can kill a story - you have to have that action! And the term 'too much' is a bit subjective - where is it found in the story, for eg? In the middle of the action? Bad, IMHO. At the beginning of the story/chapter is often good, as long as it doesn't take too long for the action to start. And if it's a short story, for heaven's sake, a *little* introspection goes a long way

Melisma (shutting up now, here under her Rock)

Once again, I can't see the voting questions, but the discussion is interesting.

On the question of whether introspection is a good or bad thing:

I think that most authors tailor their work to suit their market to a certain extent. Here in FoLCdom there's a certain propensity for enjoying introspection. Thus, it tends to be a popular ingredient of the fanfiction that's written here. I do think it's driven by the readers rather than the authors - the authors supplying what the majority of readers want. If stories with a lot of introspection bombed here, you can bet your bottom dollar that most authors would phase it out of their stories. If they wanted feedback and a generous readership, of course - it's also perfectly valid to write what you want just because you want it and if you don't care whether it's read or not but are just having fun and enjoying the writing for itself then that's as good a reason to write as any I know.

To take myself as an example, I've written fanfic for nigh on 25+ years, for various fandoms. Until I started writing for this fandom, however, I never included introspection in my stories. Well, maybe the odd line or paragraph. In fact, the thought of even attempting wholesale introspection gave me chills. How things change. I still find the change in my stories from that time to now amusing to think on.

As time went on I found it rather fun though, and it gells with my belief that one of the best things about fanfic is that it allows you to get into the heads of the characters you see on TV, to know what was driving them and what motivated them. Yes, you can do that in other ways too, but...well let's stick with me as an example.

Now, if I was to be interested in writing professionally, I'd tailor my work to suit and cut back on introspection, since introspection - along with a few other things commonly used in fanfic - isn't a mainstay of popular novels.

Since I'm not writing professionally however, but for fun, I feel free to indulge myself and write what pleases me. If others enjoy what I write too then that's icing on the cake (with a cherry on top!), but this is my hobby, so I pretty much work to please myself. Well, work to please the Muse, shall we say.

I therefore expect that those readers who enjoy introspection will read stories with introspection and those who don't...won't. It's pretty much horses for courses, as with everything else in life.

And all that to say...I pretty much agree with Rivka on this one.

I'm pretty curious to know what the options on the question were. <G>

LabRat

Pssst Rat,

Hit the red X in your toolbar at the top. It's your pop-up protector which is preventing you from seeing the poll. Hit the X, then turn it on again after you're finished with the poll.

Missy

I believe in balance and moderation. Also, it's a question of style. Depends on what the story's about, too, rather heavily.

On that first question, I *prefer* to have the characters' thoughts and musing be in prose form. But sometimes, the interior dialog, whether marked like <<this>> or otherwise, is very effective.

My favorite author uses what I think is called "tight third person" -- the entire book is from one character's viewpoint. There, she uses italics to mark the interior dialog. Once you figure out what she's doing, it works very well.

On question #2 -- Yes, there's such a thing as too much introspection, though clearly the definition of "too much" varies quite a lot! There have been a few occasions when, say, Clark spent four pages pondering something. I always expect him to open his eyes to find that Lois has gone to the kitchen for a sandwich Or if Clark thinks about what Lois said, then Lois thinks about what Lois said, then Clark thinks about what Lois might be thinking, and Lois thinks about what Clark might be thinking, and... But those are extremes, and obviously there's a chunk of readership who enjoys this (well, something like this ).

But then, on the other hand, I don't quite see the point in reading a story where characters *never* think about what they're doing, either. But again, that's my personal preferences showing

The book "The 38 Most Common Fiction Writing Mistakes (and how to avoid them)" by Jack Bickham includes a chapter called "Don't forget to let your characters think." The author's explanation of this is that you've got action scenes, when lots of Things Happen. And then, you need quieter interludes where the character begins thinking rather that just reacting, which leads to Decision Making. The ratio between the two can vary widely, of course, but they're both necessary.

That's just one author/professor's take on things, of course. It ain't gospel. But I figure it's an interesting concept to ponder.

PJ

Eeesh...that never occurred to me. Obviously! Thanks, Missy. Yay! Polls again!

LabRat (wondering if that's also the reason I haven't been able to preview a post before posting...)

Okay, now that I've seen the poll - interesting responses.

I hit other on both questions. Firstly because I tend to think introspection covers both options A and B, as others have said. Secondly, because I kind of think it depends more on the story, rather than the author, for me.

I was surprised to find 56% on 'essential to a story', because I'm not sure I would agree - coming from a tradition where I wrote plenty of fanfic without a whiff of introspection before writing for LNC and it didn't seem to harm them any. And I've enjoyed many introspection-free stories here in FoLCdom too. So that was a very interesting perspective to see.

I'd be very interested in hearing from some of those who voted for that option on why they have that opinion.


LabRat (don't you just love these polls? Fascinating stuff... )

I voted for "essential to the story" -- it seemed closest to what I was thinking. And we may be working from different definitions of "introspection" too... I'm counting any time there's any glimpse into the characters' heads. Like in my Lois example above. And I'm having a hard time envisioning a story without a shred of that kind of thing. OTOH, if we define "introspection" to be para after para of navel-gazing then no, I wouldn't say that's essential.

I'll have to dig out some of my B7 fanzines, and see what the norm was there...

PJ

Eek, I just noticed that the option that says "Depends on the Author" should really be "Depends on the story". I also forgot the "Both" option for the first question. That's why I get for posting when I should be sleeping .

(I'll be back with my opinion after class)

EDIT -
Ok now I am back from boring class and gossipy lunch and ready to respond.

Yes, Anni, I know essential is misspelled. Too bad. I don't care. I don't think I actually know *how* to spell it. Like I've always admitted, spelling is not my forte and I've never liked it, so I've never tried to learn how to do it.

I think introspection is great and absolutely necessary to a story. However, I don't read at all outside of fanfic, so I have no idea any of the authors you all are referring to , but I know that in fanfic, both when I read and when I write, I like to know what the characters are thinking. Admittedly, I am not a big fan of thougts in <<>>. It throws me out of the story. The reason I don't beta read for anyone is that I would try to reword anything in <<>> to make it straight sentances without <<>>, and that isn't always effective at getting the message across.

This conversation I had came up with a friend of mine because of a fdk email I got on one of my stories. This person said they didn't usually like stories with no dialogue. And I didn't see how someone could *not* like stories without dialogue. I was wondering if this was a popular opinion that people hated stories without dialogue. They are my favorite stories, both to read and to write. I love to read character's inner musings to see what they were thinking.

Must be why my stories aren't the most popular -- either that or it's because my writing sucks -- or because I write mostly 4th season stories (because I like my characters mostly happy)-- much more likely . My writing style is very wordy and very introspective .

- Laura

Well, I guess I voted that introspection is when the author gabs about what the character is feeling. And I also voted 'other' for the second question. I voted 'other' because I like it well enough, as long as it's in moderation, and doesn't slow up the story.

Oh, and btw, 'Essential' was not spelled correctly.

Yes, I'm hopeless!

[Barbara Hambly tangent] Actually, Roger, Icefalcon's Quest is the Hambly that I could not get through. Having just glanced through it, I remember why. It's not just the excess introspection (although there is an awful lot of that! Pages and pages -- at least two short chapters that are ONLY introspection!).

Dragonsbane seems to have quite a lot of introspection and internal dialogue as well. And her ST novel Ishmael actually has a fair amount too. (You said ST novels -- what others did she write?) The difference to me, is that I cared a lot about the characters in Dragonsbane. And most of the introspection in Ishmael is Spock. What ST fan didn't want to know what the heck went on inside that mind?

But the characters in Icefalcon I just could not bring myself to care about. The more introspective they got, the more bored I was. And when they did things, I didn't care either.

You've met Barbara Hambly? Lucky! I know she's a local -- she and Octavia Butler are two local sci-fi authors I have wanted to meet for a long time.
[/Barbara Hambly tangent]

Labby, if your pop-up blocker is giving you trouble, try the new Google toolbar instead. Its pop-up blocker is far better than either of the ones I had tried previously. Has a couple other nice features too.

Laura, you needn't learn how to spell -- just install ieSpell . I love it -- and it catches most of my typos too.

Duh! /me whacks herself upside the head. Of course! For some reason, along the way, I'd gotten into the mindset of thinking about lots of introspection, rather than introspection as a whole. Eeesh. You're right, of course.

I could imagine a story without any introspection at all - but not sure I'd want to read it. Although would have to work on a case by case basis there, as always. Generally don't like deathfic or next gen either, but my files are full of wonderful exceptions to those little rules.

Rivka, thanks for the tip. The pop-up stopper I have is working well though - now that I know how and when to switch it off. Thanks, Missy. <G> I can preview my post now too. Yay!

And I'll second that recommendation for ispell. Great little program, very handy, easy to install and simple to use.


LabRat

I voted 'other' for both questions.

Q1: When I think of 'introspection' the second is what automatically comes in mind, but <<this way>> is introspection as well.

Q2: It depends on the story. Sure, TOO MUCH introspection can be very tiring, but most stories need some here and there, at least. Others need more, and that's fine too, as long as it doesn't take the reader off track.

AnnaBtG. (who believes that not all people are talented enough to write a good and non-tiring introspection...)

Introspection can be either or both of the definitions above. It all depends on the story.

Nan