Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Off Topic Mosque at Ground Zero

Interestingly enough, Christians did exactly the same thing in Pagan Europe. Most old churches in the UK, and I assume the rest of Europe, are on or next to Pagan sacred sites.

- Alisha (who is staying out of this because she doesn't feel that she knows enough to have an informed opinion, but has been following this discussion with interest)

Alisha,

Indeed they did. In fact it is such a well known tactic of conquering nations that it amazes me that so many refuse to admit even the possibility that this might be the motive behind the location of the mosque.

Maybe a good soluion would be to build a church between the mosque and ground zero. It could be high enough that those on the top floor will be looking down on the mosque. Those who insist there can be no symbolic significance to the mosque will find no reason to oppose a church. Those who find deeper meaning in these things can interpret it how they please.

An interesting idea, but I would imagine that other faiths would feel discriminated against and they'd end up needing to appease each one by building their own religious buildings nearby. Besides which, as far as I'm aware the world trade centre was not a religious centre to begin with. While some may see the mosque as a symbol of the terrorists' 'victory', it cannot be a symbol of Islam's victory over Christianity or any other religion, and therefore building another religious building in between should not make any difference.

It could combine a church and a synagogue. Or, better still, various churches, of all denominations, and one or more synagogues (Reformed, Orthodox. etc.). That would make fund raising easier. Collections could be taken in places of worship across America. Yes, I do like this idea. If the true motive of the mosque is to promote interfaith dialog, what a great idea to build a center for other faiths, so they will have someone to dialog with!

But this mosque isn't 'overlooking' anything and frankly, 15 stories is a small building in Lower Manhattan. The mosque has no direct line of sight to Ground Zero and the Freedom Tower will, of course, tower over it.

Every objection I have heard here is casting the construction of this community center -- it is not a mosque-- in terms of the clash of civilizations. The objectors are all casting this as some sort of proxy in the larger "Christianity is better than Islam" battle. Read the responses above.
It doesn't matter whether you think Christianity is better than Islam. That is your right to do so. The point is that the objections are all coming from this proxy battle in your heads and therefore the objections are emotional and not rational. You are equating all Muslims with terrorists. A religion with one Billion (with a B) followers is not a monolith. You don't have to like Islam. You just have to like the Constitution of the United States.

Terry, I stand by the number I used before--69% of Manhattanites support this project. When you add in the population of the other boroughs, then that number goes down to 49%...so it is a bare majority of the greater NY population who object. They are perfectly within their rights to protest the mosque, but they are not doing so. The rest of the country seems to be doing that, and forgetting The First Amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. I guess that is true except when any Muslim wants to build a community center near the site of a terror attack that he or she had nothing to do with.
And I guess Gov't should keep out of religion, except when protestors are pushing for government control of private property to stop construction of a religious center. It's the government's role to enforce freedom of religion as articulated by the Constitution, and that is lost when emotion and proxy-battle-mentality takes over.

I also stand by what I said earlier. The ariwaves are filled with irrational Islamophobia. The objectors on this site have expressed their emotional misgivingsin a polite way, which is fair. The rest of the country has not. The campaign against this mosque is one of the ugliest and most odious controversies in some time. It's based purely on appeals to base fear and bigotry. There are no reasonable arguments against it, and the precedent that would be set if its construction were prevented -- equating Islam with Terrorism, implying 9/11 guilt for Muslims generally, imposing serious restrictions on core religious liberty -- are quite serious.

I've also been reading this thread with interest.

Joy, I didn't get that from reading the posts. What I read seemed to represent quite a diversity of opinion, with some posts recognising the range of ideas under the umbrella of Islam, and others also acknowledging the constitutional right of this particular group to build its centre and yet bothered by the lack of sensitivity of the action. It's clearly a really complex issue for many, as I gather the American President has indicated over this weekend with his two statements which boil down to: "Yes, but on the other hand"

Personally, I like Vicki's idea of a multi-faith community centre - it seems such an optimistic idea.

c.

Lastly, to Lynn, stepnachia and others who feel that this is a "slap in the face//callous disregard for the feelings of the friends and families of those who died at ground zero//etc."
You need to understand that New Yorkers and 9/11 families are not a monolith in their opinions on this either.

Please do not presume to speak for me.

My friends died on that day, my family members were permanently injured..and I do NOT think it's insensitive to have the community center built there. I don't think that Muslims are trying to rub salt in the wounds of the families, the victims and America. I don't think that all Muslims were behind 9/11. I do believe, from what my Muslim friends, neighbors and co-workers have told me, that being Muslim in a suspicious America continues to be a difficult and scary existence and that any community center where Islam can dialogue with others is a good thing.
As much as 9/11 was an attack on the whole country, I absolutely think people outside of New York City should stay out of this and let us New Yorkers decide what we want. We have had enough of the rest of the country disapproving of us except when they want to use 9/11 as a rallying point. As a New Yorker and an American, I refuse to let the hijackers turn my country into a confused asylum willing to surrender what once was considered valuable.

CNN showed poll results on this question yesterday while I was at the gym, so I didn't hear any of the commentary associated with it. But the numbers they showed on the screen were as follows:

• 29% approve
• 68% oppose
• +- 3% error margin
• Poll taken August 6-10

I'm curious to know where your numbers are coming from, Joy, because you are the only source I've heard from with those results.

My understanding was that the above numbers were from New Yorkers who were polled during the dates listed, but I did not see the sample size or how the poll was conducted (phone, TV ad call-in, street pollsters, door-to-door, etc.), so I can't say that they're golden. We all know that polls can be skewed by the the way a poll is conducted, who is polled, what time of day the questions are asked, or how the polling questions are phrased. But it's interesting to me to see such a wide variance between one set of numbers and another.

And I do not presume to speak for you, Joy. I'm not telling you what to do or where to do it. Let me reiterate my earlier point: I'm in favor of a community center where Muslims and Jews and Christians and others can meet, greet, smile, and learn about each other. I'm just not confident that this will be such a place. If I'm wrong in that (and I hope that I am), then that's a good thing.

But if I'm not wrong -

http://dnainfo.com/20100701/manhattan/manhattanites-support-mosque-near-ground-zero-poll-finds

I found this in the first ten seconds of surveying NY papers. This or some variant has been published every day for weeks in every NY paper

One more and I'm done with this thread.

Ann wrote:
I never said that. However, I do understand that my statements might easily be misconstrued by honest and sincere people.

So let me clarify my statements. I do not back down from the inference that there are extremely negative things about my culture, including (but not limited to) immorality, dishonesty, abuse of authority, and a callous disregard for the lives and property of others. I also hold to the statement what these negative values are not limited to either gender.

But I do NOT believe that Osama Bin Laden sent the team to the US to hijack the airliners because he'd seen one too many episodes of "Peyton Place" or any of its ilk on Middle Eastern TV. Bin Laden's motivations are complex and varied, and the sooner he and his Al Queda buddies are brought to justice, the better.

But I DO believe that the in-your-face presentation of many of our cultural values does offend many moderate and conservative Muslims who have absolutely no desire to blow up American skyscrapers. I know from my reading of the Unicorn killer case (see Ira Einhorn) that many Americans were angry at France's refusal to extradite him in the 1990's without a guarantee that he would not be subject to the death penalty, which Pennsylvania allowed at the time of the murder. France has no right to tell the US what to do with our convicted murderers.

Yet many Middle Easterners believe that we, the US, are trying to do the very same thing with our cultural exports. We have political commentators from all over the spectrum taking positions and not allowing questions, much less debate. We have people in our State Department (not all of them, of course, and apparently not the ones who live in the host countries) telling Muslims how they should live their lives. We show them TV shows and movies of people who change lovers as often as they change their underwear (sometimes more often). We show them people portrayed as heroes who are drunks and/or drug addicts. To many of these Hollywood heroes, betrayal in one form or another is the highest form of art. And we hold up men and women whose claim to fame and power and validity is that they can run faster or jump higher or hit a ball better than anyone else in the world.

If this is all we are - and to many, that's all they see - we're shallow and vapid compared to them. And in some ways and from some points of view, they'd be justified in conquering us.

This is why I support it.

Joy's link reports:
This article does not support your numbers, Joy. Even in Manhattan, fewer than half support it. Granted, that doesn't mean that more than half oppose it, but that's still not a 69% approval rate. You can't add the approval percentage to the undecided one to find the group which doesn't oppose the mosque and call that a majority approval rating.

Who was it who said "there are lies, damn lies, and statistics" ?
Always take individual polls with a grain of salt, I figure. I know this is a bit of an off-topic comment, but I'm always slightly wary of polls - so much depends on what questions were asked, and how they were phrased. (plus the phase of the moon, and countless other variables)

c.

Excuse me? Given that Terry said, “there are many Muslims in the US who heartily disapprove of the events of 9/11”, Pam said, “there are many, many Muslims [who do not adhere to the more radical elements of the Koran]”, and I specifically thanked the “moderate”, “peace-loving Muslims” who have spoken out against the mosque, I am at a loss where you found anyone on these boards “equating all Muslims with terrorists”. I submit that it is *you* who is carrying on an emotional and completely irrational proxy battle in your head against imaginary Islamophobes.
I find it interesting that the posts in this thread with the most emotion-charged (and, I would add, sarcastic and insulting) language, are not those made by the opponents of the mosque, but rather by you.

By the way, and since I so seldom agree with anything you say, I feel it is all the more necessary for me to acknowledge when, in fact, I do agree. And I agree with you completely regarding the Constitution and property rights. In fact, it is for this very reason that I suggested the building of an additional interfaith community center – namely, that I do not see any legal, constitutional way to prohibit the building of this mosque. It would have been nice if, as a gesture of good-will, they had agreed to move to an alternate location. But, alas, they did not, and given that it is, as you say, on private property, there’s not a whole lot I, or anyone else, can do about that.

Unless, of course, it were proven that the mosque's founders, funders, etc. had direct ties to terrorist organizations. I'm not altogether sure, but it seems to me that, if that were the case (and I am not alleging that it is the case, I am only posting a hypothetical), then perhaps that might open up legal means for stopping construction. (?) Short of that, it seems fairly clear-cut to me that they have the constitutional right to build.

Vicky, you've proven my point: by your definition all moderate or peace loving Muslims have to speak out against the project or you won't consider them moderate or peace loving. They oughta understand how much their presence provokes/offends/rubs salt into your feelings and have the decency to take themselves far away. Oops they can't do that, because communities from Staten Island to Tennessee to California are now roiled with anti-mosque fervor.

Joy, Joy, Joy,

<shakes head>

Where *do* you get this stuff?

I've read through this entire thread now, and have been a little frustrated by how many people insist on calling the proposed community center a mosque. It is NOT a mosque!

In fact, I'm surprised that no one has mentioned this video, which I found posted by someone else on Facebook weeks ago:

Keith Olbermann Special Comment: THERE IS NO "GROUND ZERO MOSQUE"

Truthfully, I'd never even heard of Keith Olbermann before I saw the video myself, but his comments are well-researched, and make a lot of sense to me.