Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Off Topic Questions about kids misbehaving

A question for all the parents out there: when (if ever) is it permissible for a teacher or other caregiver to raise their voice to your child? For them to say something like, "I am very angry because you disobeyed me"?

Also, in your reply, could you mention something about how old you or your kids are?

The rules of permissible discipline have changed a lot over the years. When I show off a museum exhibit on schools long ago, I have to explain to the children what the paddles were used for. (They were not used for boats!)

But this question arises from a personal issue, so I'd really like to know what people say.

I have - many times. Sometimes I probably shouldn't have and then I apologize. [DS2 was NOT LISTENING or staying in time out and had hurt 2 of his sisters then hurt me - badly [my fingers were swollen for several hours where he jammed them and still hurt a bit if I do the wrong thing and it was nearly a week ago] and I sort of snapped and yelled at him - scared DD5 who was right there worse than him . Apologized to both of them - but he did stay in time out after that...] But by the time it's all said and done, my kids know they need to apologize for whatever it is they did [from hitting their sister to disobeying or whatever]. I get more 'Mom, I'm sorry for not listening's than I'd like :p . [They really are good kids overall but we all have our moments...]

My kids are currently 2, 5, 6, 8. While I prefer not to yell, sometimes it's the only way to get their attention [or feels like it anyway].

As for what circumstances...

* Hurting another person - and not stopping
* Fighting and not stopping
* Not doing something Mom needs done NOW [like if little brother has an unexpected poopy diaper and Mom needs the wet wipes and you're too busy watching an episode/movie of something you've seen a dozen times [or more] or when Mom's trying to clean up throw up or something]
* Just not paying attention will sometimes get you a sharp 'Hey!'
* Etc.

We'll often sit and talk about what happened too. We talk about how it hurts my heart and how it hurts Jesus' heart or makes us sad when we don't listen or when we disobey. [I'm not going to get into a religious argument with anyone here btw.]

Dunno if that helps at all...

I'll preface my response by saying that it probably won't be too helpful for you, since our circumstances are probably very different...

My son is on the autism spectrum. He is eight years old and has almost no expressive language abilities. It is difficult to determine just how much he understands, although it is obvious to me that he takes in far more than a casual observer would give him credit for. He definitely understands things like "If you change into your day clothes, we can go to the playground." But I don't think he understands terminology for abstract concepts like anger. I also don't think he has a sufficient concept of mind or ability to empathize that my saying anything like, "I am angry" would have any meaning for him. (Don't get me wrong, I do discuss emotions with him just in case I am underestimating him. But I just don't rely on the discussions to be sufficient.)

Subtle discouragements like frowns or calm requests to desist are lost on him. Therefore, I do raise my voice with him on a fairly regular basis; mainly in one of the following situations:

1) When he puts himself in danger or is about to do so. (He likes doing things like climbing bookcases, putting his leg over the railing of the stairs in our house, etc. So this is a fairly frequent reason for me to raise my voice.)

2) When he hurts, or is about to hurt, someone. (Hair pulling, hitting, etc.)

3) When he intentionally destroys or damages property. (e.g., Tearing pages out of books.)

I will say that my reaction to these behaviours also depends on what I believe his motivation for doing them is. If I can tell that he is doing these things to get a rise out of me, then, to the extent possible consistent with keeping everyone safe, I will not react in any way whatsoever. The non-reaction response is designed to extinguish unwanted behaviours.

As I said, our situations are very different. But FWIW, this is what I do. I hope it helps at least a little.

cheers,
Lynn

As a parent, I want teachers to know they are accountable for how they treat my child ie if something unusual happens, I want to know.

If the teacher has a justifiable reason for shouting, I have no problems. There is every chance my child needed to be told anyway. Something as mild as 'I am very angry because you disobeyed me' is probably just the truth. I would almost *expect* a teacher to say that if my child was continually disobeying.

Even if the teacher, in the heat of the moment, said something regretable, I can understand that. Working with kids can be incredibly stressful. If it crossed the line signficantly, an apology would usually fix the situation. (And in many circumstances, I'd insist my child apologised too if his behaviour had contributed to the stress.)

My kids are mostly teens now. I've had minimal problems - and none that couldn't be sorted with some calm communication.

Hope that helps.


Corrina.

Well, my DS is 25 now, but yeah, he got yelled at, mostly to get his attention. Then we could talk. And yes, sometimes the conversation did go: "I get very annoyed when you don't listen. And yes, you WILL get on the school bus, dressed or not."

I've given this a lot of thought over the past decade or so Like Lynn, I have an autistic son (mine is 13), although mine is much higher-functioning and is mainstreamed. He can be really really frustrating to work with (emotionally immature with weird gaps in his understanding of the world). But no way are the teachers allowed to yell at my kid. (If I'm not allowed to yell at them, they can't yell at him; seems fair to me! )

I think the standards for parents and the standards for teachers (or caregivers) are different -- teachers, IMO, should *never* react to a child in anger. It's their job to put on a "Prozac smile" and maintain control of themselves. We pay them money to find alternative ways of dealing with unruly kids. The school has systems in place for that and staff to assist teachers.

In my book, parents get a lot more leeway, even though ideally they shouldn't react with anger. For one thing, parents are *much* more emotionally invested in the child to start with. They also spend a lot more time with the child, (often including sleepless/disrupted nights, which really erodes temper control) and often there's no readily available help.

So, I give parents a pass on raising their voices, assuming it's not their default mode of communicating with the child. And saying something like "I'm angry with you because you disobeyed" can be valuable to younger kids, because 1) they need to be taught to identify their own emotions, and 2) it's tremendously positive to communicate "I am very angry but I choose not to react out of that" (and therefore you can choose how to react to your emotions, too).

Or as I like to put it, parents were drafted; teachers volunteered. Standards are higher for the "professionals."

PJ

I agree 100% with you. I wish to clarify my earlier post: When I raise my voice, I try not to do it out of anger. (I don't always succeed in that regard; I fear that sleep deprivation and I are no strangers. Last summer it had gotten so bad that I couldn't stand up for more than half a minute at a time without leaning against something for support, and it was a struggle to put together a coherent sentence. That was when I finally gave in to my son's neurologist's suggestion that Andy be given something so that he, and in turn I, could sleep.) Although I try not to raise my voice when I *am* angry, I do try to *seem* angry when he is engaged in, or is about to engage in, dangerous behaviours.

Between his medical conditions and his total lack of a sense of self-preservation, it is a miracle in many ways that my son has lived as long as he has. If raising my voice and pretending to be angry will discourage behaviours that, if left unchecked, might prevent him from seeing his ninth birthday, I think it is well worth it. I know that there are other methods for working to control behaviours, such as positive reinforcement of behaviours that can not coexist with the maladaptive behaviour; but they take time to work. Time that a child who routinely does things like climbing to the top of a bookcase might not have.

I guess my bottom line is that whatever is effective, provided it is not abusive in any way (physically, mentally, emotionally, etc.), is acceptable. And the adults' behaviours must be tailored to the individual child -- some children are sensitive enough that a frown or an "I'm disappointed in you" will practically render them to tears; others (such as my son) will only respond to firmer methods. Parents (and teachers) should be as gentle as they can be while still teaching the child proper behaviour. But "as gentle as they can be" will differ from child to child.

And of course it should go without saying that far more time should be spent in positive interactions with the child than in negative ones.

cheers,
Lynn

Totally agree with you, Lynn. You gotta use what works.

And that makes sense, because he's got autism so he's not going to pick up on subtle nuances of expression. It has to be exaggerated for him to even notice. If your child is hard of hearing, you talk louder, enunciate more, etc. Same thing.

When Michael was much younger (3 or 4), we had a terrible time disciplining him, or stopping him from, say, chewing on electrical cords, because he totally did not get the whole cause and effect thing. Yelling to get his attention and prompt re-direction was pretty much our only option. Spanking him at that point would have been pointless and cruel. Life got much easier for us when he started to understand that choices have consequences.

PJ

Originally posted by ChiefPam:

Exactly!

Yikes! Chewing on electrical cords makes Andy's behaviours seem downright safe by comparison.

I hear you there. Andy gets cause and immediate effect now. ("Do X and you will immediately be rewarded/punished with Y.") But he has yet to get the concept of delayed consequences. ("Do X now and there will be no TV tonight.") And unfortunately, there are very few things that are effective (dis)incentives with him. A refrain I have heard from all of his teachers, and I have made myself more than once, is that he seems to be a bright kid, but it is extremely difficult to motivate him to do anything for which he is not self-motivated. And his teachers are hardly newbies to autism. He attends one of the country's leading schools for autistic children.

Sounds familiar, except Andy gets so focused on what he is doing that redirection is extremely difficult. (Again, a common plaint of his educators.) If we could direct his focus into more positive avenues, I think it could be turned into a tremendous strength. I only wish I knew how to do it.

I imagine it would have done.

I find that my style of raising Andy is very different than I had envisioned it when I was pregnant. And the vast majority of the differences are due to his special needs. I have also become much more tolerant when I observe other parent-child interactions when I am in public. I realize now that things might not be as they appear to the stranger. Another example of this: My son has had feeding issues all of his life. They became severe enough that he had had surgery to open a stoma to his stomach through which to insert a feeding tube. He gets the bulk of his nourishment through the G-tube. After many years of feeding therapy, he finally overcame his oral aversion, although he still will not eat enough to sustain life. But when he was much younger, his therapists instructed me to insist that he sit for 20 minutes at a meal while I tried to feed him. I was to keep him sitting and continue to attempt to feed him despite his crying, screaming, turning away, and otherwise protesting. I never fed Andy in public if I could help it, because I feared someone would call child protective services on us because they had observed what appeared to be a mother torturing her child by trying to force feed him when he clearly didn't want to eat. I knew that what I was doing really was in Andy's best interest; but to a casual observer, it sure wouldn't have looked like it. There are a myriad of other examples I could give along similar lines of a casual observer having no idea what is really going on. That has taught me not to make snap judgments about other people's interactions with their kids. I guess this is just one of the many lessons that having Andy as my son has taught me.

I realize that I have spent a lot of time in this thread focusing on the challenges which raising Andy faces, so in the interest of balance let me say that my son is an incredibly cute, usually sweet lad who is generally a delight to be around. (Not that I'm biased or anything

cheers,
Lynn

Oh, that sounds familiar! That's been an unexpected problem, with Michael, this year, because he's very smart (in his self-motivated areas!) and above grade-level, accademically, so they think he's on grade-level in other areas as well, like social & emotional. I've come to loathe the "bright" word. Physically, he's 13, as tall as his mom, and will have to start shaving soon, but on the inside he's about 7, maybe. He still wants to sit on my lap & cuddle up to Mommy. Which on the one hand is sweet, but on the other hand... probably should be discouraged.

Oh, yeah. Of course, probably a lot of people find that, but it's more dramatic in your case. But, as has been mentioned up-thread, different kids respond to different motivations (even the "normal" ones) so you've really got to be flexible and find what works best for your specific situation.

Hmm, I think this thread has drifted Oh well, we're having a good conversation, so that's all that matters, right?

PJ

I think it just shows that a lot of us have to deal with extremes and what you see may not be the whole story. For some kids the only way to get their attention (or break their attention to something inappropriate) is to raise your voice or get physical - grabbing hands or shoulders or (if they're small enough) physically carrying them off.

And I agree - professionals should be held to a higher standard. Of course, that also means, as parents and 'experts in your child' you should be prepared to give them ideas on how to deal with your child's specialness. With my own DS, it was cluing them in on his particular specialness and key phrases that worked at home when he acted out - 'Hon, that was a great show but close the curtain.'

(Theatrical terms worked well with him. The teachers didn't always understand it but it worked for him. BTW, he just got notified he'll be teaching Anth 101 classes at Uni next fall.)