Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Off Topic President Obama and King Abdullah

I was just wondering what people's reactions were to the President of the United States genuflecting before the King of Saudi Arabia.

(Or do you doubt that was what he was doing? If so, any alternate theories?)

Hi Vicki:
I haven't seen the footage. It's evidently not a big deal here. They showed Obama with the President of Turkey on the news. I do know that Abdullah is half as tall as Obama and he may have been bending down to talk to him. Both Obamas were taller than Prince Phillip of Great Britain, and he is tall. If I see some footage, I'll be back.

Artemis

You can see a still photograph and also video footage here

The still photo is rear view, and clearly shows the president's bended knee - which is why I refer to the president "genuflecting", rather than simply "bowing". (To me, the king looks surprised, the man to the left amused.)

The video (at 0:53 seconds) makes it clear that the president is not stooping to speak, or to pick something up, or to gaze at something on the floor, etc. (Which, if one had only the still shot to go by, might seem plausible.)

*What* the president did seems to be undeniable. The significance (or insignificance) of what he did is currently being hotly debated.

The American mainstream media isn't going to show anything that has the potential to embarrass the Obamas. Remember that Michelle Obama actually touched Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth in public view somwehere other than her gloved hand just a few days ago. That's a major-league no-no, even if the Queen seemed to invite the contact. (What might happen out of view of the cameras is a whole different matter.)

And we heard about it over here, but the media didn't jump down Michelle's throat over it. I don't know how Britons feel, but most Americans didn't think it was that big a deal. England is our friend, right? And they have to put up with all of our idiocy.

Barack Obama isn't being held to the same standard of behavior that his conservative predecessors were. If George Bush had behaved in this manner, he would have been excoriated in print and on the small screen for days. This - we don't hear very much at all about it. Why? "It's not a big deal." Or, "He's still new, still learning." Or, "Who cares? It's not like he fired a missile at him or something."

For the most part, the US media is not objective. We'll continue to receive biased reporting on the Obama administration for the next four years, unless he does something so exceptionally stupid that it can't be ignored. I don't think this falls into that category, so by "definition" it's not a story.

Barack Obama is going to break a lot of rules in his presidency and set a lot of precedents. Some of them will out of ignorance (because either he wasn't briefed properly or he didn't listen), and some will be Barack being Barack. My impression is that this falls into the latter category, but that's just my impression.

Whoever the president is (I didn't want Obama to be president) I don't think our president should genuflect to a ruler of another country. I don't know why he would do something like that and IMO it was a dumb idea. I also think that Michelle Obama putting her arm around the Queen of England shows a distinct lack of class. I think someone needs to sit down with her and teach her some etiquette.

Tara

Actually, I had the wrong Abdullah (there are so many of them) in mind. I was thinking of the King of Jordan, who is shorter than his wife. But the Saudi King? Yikes. I don't know what he was thinking.
I agree with Terry's thinking.

Artemis

Actually, no it's not. The Palace specifically issued a statement to say, no it's not. The Queen initiated the contact. If I remember rightly, there's some archaic nonsense about not talking to the Queen before she speaks to you, first and contact probably follows the same rule, but Michelle made no breach of any protocol that anyone is aware of.

Furthermore, the only place I saw this cause a fuss was on the US news media. I didn't even know it had happened until I went into HuffPo and saw it there.

It was barely mentioned here in the UK and the tabloids which did mention it were taking an amused and affectionate tone with it. There was certainly not much in the way of outrage.

As for the Turkey visit - haven't seen the footage, but I suspect it's just more fuss over nothing. :p

If people want to see something Obama is doing wrong, they'll be sure to find it, I'm sure. :rolleyes:

LabRat

I have no doubt there exist people who hate Obama so much, they will go out of their way to find any error they can. Likewise, the president has supporters who are so faithful, they will find a way to dismiss, downplay, or deny any errors at all.

Hopefully, the people on these boards can look objectively at the footage and have an intelligent conversation regarding the appropriateness of President Obama's actions in an open and honest manner, without being accused of purposefully looking for errors nor close-mindedly denying them.

The first step, of course, would be to actually look at the video in question.

I watched the video in question. That was an extremely deep bow to the ruler of a foreign nation. Definately not something the president of our nation should be doing.

Tara

Well I watched it and wouldn't call it obeisance. It was quick and probably too deep to be proper, but people were milling about. It was an informal moment before a photo shoot. Heck, I've seen Generals in full Army and Marine uniforms hug each other in a public meeting. It doesn't really signify anything. If the whole room was watching Obama approach Abdullah in a formal situation, that's a different animal.
And for the record, I didn't vote for Obama.

Artemis

Americans shouldn't bow at all unless there's a round of applause to respond to. Definitely not to people.

As for Michelle touching the Queen, well, in the photo I saw it was one of those side-by-side hugs for the camera, and understandable that Mrs. Obama would reciprocate the gesture the Queen had made. And hey, it's better than bowing or curtseying.

I'm inclined to roll my eyes and move on, but clearly enough people thought it was a big deal that the palace felt the need to issue a statement of "it's not a big deal."

I was more interested in that lovely state gift of an iPod, thoughtfully pre-loaded with audio and video of Obama's greatest hits. Dude, when you need a last-minute gift, don't go to Wal-Mart. They've got some really fancy department stores in and around DC. Someone on the staff should have been able to find their way to one to pick up something nice. I'd be embarrassed to give that sort of thing as a wedding present, let alone to a foreign head of state.

PJ

At least the movies will play - as opposed to the reportedly Region 1 DVDs the PM got...

So the DVDs didn't play. But that's okay, 'cause the PM is going blind anyway, so what difference does it make, really?

PJ
who would really like to think that the President knows more than she does, but is starting to doubt it.

For what it's worth, here are my thoughts on the bow:

Obama did not greet any other dignitary in a similar manner. He greeted Queen Elizabeth, for example, with a handshake and a nod of the head. Thus, it seems obvious that he did not greet King Abdullah as he did because he thought it was proper protocol for greeting royalty.

I have to ask myself what is special about the King of Saudi Arabia that would cause Obama to bow to him in this manner. I do not believe, for example, that this greeting has anything to do with America's dependence on Saudi oil. So, what else could it be?

The very first impression that I got when I saw the video was that Obama was kissing the King's hand. The scene immediately reminded me of that of a Catholic kissing the Pope's ring.

"Custodian of the Two Mosques" (or "of the Two Holy Shrines") is a pious title previously claimed by various caliphs, and now held by the King of Saudi Arabia. The King of Saudi Arabia is considered the protector of the two holiest cities in Islam: Medina and Mecca. It has traditionally been the custom to kiss the hand of the Custodian of the Two Holy Shrines.* Could this be what Obama was doing?

If so, why? One answer, obviously, would be that Obama is a Muslim. Mohammed was known to have given approval for Muslims to feign conversion when it is expedient to do so, as long as their hearts remained true to Islam.

However, there are other explanations, too. Perhaps, like the Episcopal priest, the Rev. Ann Holmes , who recently proclaimed, "I am both Muslim and Christian," Obama feels it is possible to follow both religions simultaneously. Or, perhaps even though his conversion to Christianity was genuine, the bow was a reflex reaction, a case of "old habits die hard." Maybe he was just showing his respect for Islam.

Whatever his current relationship to Islam, it is my belief that Obama was not bowing to the King as Head of State, but rather as Custodian of the Two Holy Shrines. The motive was religious more than political (IMHO).


*I thought Pam's comment about hoping her president knows more than she was amusing, in light of the fact that Obama was apparently unaware that King Abdullah made a decree back in 2005 eliminating the custom, as he declared that bowing before a king was an unseemly act of idolotry.

Oh Pam, I love that!!

And I truly feel if it had been Bush instead the media would be ALL over it.

Sue

No American is supposed to bow to any foreign ruler, period. Not a rich man (or woman) or a poor one, and definitely not the President of the country.

Nan

P.S. And yes, I have seen the video. It was unquestionably a bow.

Oh, not the Obama is a Muslim conspiracy theory again... :rolleyes:

Wendy, I couldn't care less about whether Obama is a Muslim, a Christian or a worshipper of the Sun god. My objection is that he bowed before a foreign ruler. Period.

Nan

Wendy,

As mine was the only post to mention Islam, I assume you are referring to me.

Rather than mocking me, disparagingly calling my analysis a "conspiracy theory" and rolling your eyes, I would ask that you engage in civilized conversation with me.

I mentioned various possible explanations for Obama's actions:

1) he is a Muslim
2) he is a Christian who believes Christianity is compatible with Islam
3) he is a Christian who, being raised a Muslim in his youth, gave a conditioned response upon meeting King Abdullah
4) he is a Christian who wished to show respect for the Islamic religion

I also provided explanations which I discarded, and explained why I believed these were inadequate:

1) he was following what he believed to be proper protocol when meeting royalty
2) he was being obsequious to the Saudis because of our dependence on Saudi oil

In addition, I solicited alternate ideas from other members of the boards.

Frankly, I believe my willingness to entertain all possiblities which fit the facts shows an openmindedness on my part, which your response lacks.

My post was an attempt to engage in an intelligent discussion and analysis of what happened. I have no problem whatsoever with people providing reasons why any or all of my suggestions should be discarded, nor with them offering alternative suggestions. You have done neither.

Obama unquestionably has Muslim relatives and spent time in a Muslim school (madrassa) in Indonesia while in single digits. It's part of his life experience.

And given the number of people in the world who claim to be Christians on account of what mum & dad took them to church when they were little... well, religious self-identification can be rather dodgy at times, and sometimes old habits take over. Or something. I haven't a clue, really. But I don't feel it should be out of bounds to wonder about it.

PJ