Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Off Topic Catholic bishop excommunicates doctors and mother for 9-year-old's abortion

Not long ago, the Pope welcomed bishop Richard Williamson back into the Catholic Church. Bishop Williamson partly denies the Holocaust, but that apparently shouldn't stop him from belonging to the Catholic Church.

Now another Catholic bishop, José Cardoso Sobrinho, excommunicated some Brazilian doctors and a mother because of an abortion that was performed on a nine-year-old girl. The girl was pregnant with twins, and the doctors were in doubt whether her small body would be able to carry the fetuses to term, or even to survive the pregnancy. Her pregnancy was allegedly the result of rape by her stepfather. It should be noted that the stepfather has not been excommunicated. Admittedly it has not been proven that the stepfather raped the girl, but at least it should be medically possible to find out whether the stepfather is the father of the now-aborted twins.

Anyway, I'm left with the impression that the Catholic Church finds it okay to deny the Holocaust and to rape a nine-year-old girl. That is not bad enough to warrant excommunication. Only if nine-year-old rape victims have abortions is excommunication required.

Read about it here .

Ann

Sorry, but I have to poke some holes here. I agree, anyone that rapes is just as culpable to our Catholic laws as anyone who aborts. Religion certainly isn't a buffet. But the Holocaust has nothing to do with upholding church canon, so yes, we don't care. We'll call those people who want to rewrite history moronic, but it's not against the law to be a moron in the Catholic Church. The Holocaust is not one of our core beliefs that you must hold true and publicly profess to be able to participate in the Catholic Church.

Additionally, is the stepfather even Catholic?

Peace,
JD

Apparently.

I'm not going to comment beyond this - it speaks for itself. Appalling and indefensible.

LabRat

First, the Holocaust denier has been excommunicated by Pope Benedict. So at some point, idiots are excommunicated.
Second, I've always understood that abortions could be allowed if the mother's health was in jeopardy. Of course, these could be where the American church is in trouble with the Vatican.
Unfortunately it is sometimes hard to judge the right and wrongs in a country far away with different social values. To be excommunicated in a country that is predominately Catholic is a lot more grievous problem that in a country with a broad mixture of religions.

Artemis

Artemis, the "HUMAN" LAW in Brazil allows abortions in cases where the mother is at risk or the pregnancy was a result of sexual abuse. In this girl's case, it was both.

Unfortunately, the Catholic church does not see it like that. To them, of course, every life is important, and all are forgiven in the eyes of God. So, the stepfather is a criminal but should not be excommunicated, but everyone else that helped the little girl throughout the abortion should, even though the pregnancy could have taken her life. As a note, the little girl was NOT excommunicated, since children are not responsible for their actions (according to the Brazilian archbishop).

malu

Since I can't resist these threads... I'll be contrary just for a bit.

In criminal law, which is more serious, rape or murder? Are they seen as equal? If you believe (as Catholics officially do) that human life begins at conception, then abortion is murder. I suspect the church has a set of guidelines about which offenses merit excommunication; they have to draw the line somewhere, or they'd be excommunicating people for littering. (I suspect archbishops aren't granted much wiggle room; Catholicism is such a top-down church that they have to do what they're told.) Apparently murder goes over the line in a way that rape (while still reprehensible) does not.

By the way, is the stepfather going to be arrested? Abortion may be legal in Brazil, but I'm pretty certain rape is not. Especially of a minor. So the criminal justice system should be all over that.

Yes, the 9-yr-old is an innocent victim. Though I find myself wondering about the mother. It's not unknown (sadly and disgustingly) for women to "overlook" abuse; to just refuse to think about it and ignore any warning signs. Step-fathers and boyfriends are usually the cause, too, not biological dads. But maybe that's just my cynical side.

I don't really know enough about this to say anything for certain, and I am *so* not Catholic. The situation with canon law treating crimes differently just reminds me of my experience on the K-Com. Sometimes we just had to say "this, but not that; just because we said so" whether it made sense to all FOLCs or not because a line needed to be drawn *somewhere*.

Anyway, we might consider that there's more going on here than meets the eye.

PJ

Gah, it's like crack. And yes, the article says the step-father was arrested last week.

Yep. And while the location of the line drawn in the sand may or may not seem retarded to some when it comes to this latest news story, I take plenty of comfort in the Catholic belief that we're all going to get our due in the afterlife. The canon lawyers aren't the only ones the step-father will ever answer to.

Running away to get some real work done!
JD

So if the justice system says that it is a crime to rape a child, but it is not a crime to perform an abortion on the raped child, then the legal system's stance will make up for the fact that the all-dominant religion in the country where the stepfather and the child live says the absolute opposite?

The religion in a country or a province is often the ultimate judge of what is right and wrong. There was a case in Pakistan, where a (religious) village court sentenced a young woman to being raped. Being raped was going to be her punishment. And for what? Well, her younger brother had been consorting with a girl from a better family than his, and in retaliation, the young man's sister was going to be raped.

And raped she was. In public, in front of the entire village. By at least six men, one of whom was a judge that had passed the sentence on her.

When this case became known to the world, there was an international outcry and a harsh call for punishment of the rapists. Pakistan's government caved in and arrested the rapists. They were sentenced to death. But then there were violent protests from the village and from other fundamentalist Islam parts of Pakistan. Pakistan's government caved in again, the men were set free, and all charges were dropped.

In a country were people are religious, where religion really matters to them, can you have a system where the secular law punishes some behaviours and not others, and the religious law does the absolute opposite?

Anyway, in a country where the religion is very important, it is extremely important for the people who live there to be able to be a part of that religion and to be able to take part of the ceremonies, rites and festivities that everyone else takes part of. Being cut off from all that is the same thing as being cut off from society. Also, being excommunicated means that the all-dominant religion, the Supreme Moral Court of what is right and wrong, has passed judgement on you and condemned you. They have pilloried you for everyone to see.

When the stepfather who raped his stepdaughter gets out of prison, he will be welcomed back to his church, to be a part of the congregation again and to partake of communion and all other ceremonies. The girl's mother will be standing outside, in shame. And the girl will know that it is her fault that the only parent she has known - because her biological father does not seem to be present in her life - has been dumped on the garbage heap for everyone to see by the highest moral authority in the land for trying to save her daughter's life.

Am I appalled? You bet.

Ann

Sorry to toss out another flag, but just because he's not excommunicated doesn't mean he's automatically allowed to participate. I can't judge the state of his soul from my living room anymore than the rest of you can, but I'd educate yourself on who's allowed to receive communion and when. And if he's in a state of mortal sin when he gets out of prison, he is not allowed to partake in communion. So I wouldn't be appalled quite yet.

And we don't know where the mother will be in a few years. Excommunication isn't permanent. Yes, she saved her daughter, but she may also one day be sorry for having ended another life in the process. You just never know.

Later all,
JD

I don't think it's fair to assume that the church is saying "hey, self-preservation is wrong, but rape is okay." Sounds more to me like the church has different responses based on the severity of the crime. It's this thing we have called separation of church and state. Even in Brazil, or abortion would *not* be legal, given the way the church regards it.

To be clear, I'm not saying that this was the correct and proper reaction to the situation, but the church is entitled to decide which offenses do and do not merit an official excommunication. Grievous harm (rape) and mortal harm (murder) aren't quite exactly the same thing, and I can see the argument that murder is more serious.

I'm not defending the specific decision here, just the church's right to make that decision, and the possibility that no sexism was actually involved.

I don't know why I'm trying. Ann, you've got well-developed opinions about the world, and whether they're perfectly logical or totally pig-headed is beside the point.

The "to save the life of the mother" argument is interesting here, because was the girl's life in *immediate* danger, or is this something they were predicting would happen sometime during the term of the pregnancy? There's been quite a spirited argument in the world lately about the validity of pre-emption of (assumed) future harm as a justification for the loss of life, as opposed to self-defence after the harm has been done.

I must say, though, that I'm offended to see Christianity compared to Islam. Islam is, in many ways, opposed to Western culture; Christianity helped to form Western culture. They are not morally equivalent.

Anyway, when the Pope sentences a 9-yr-old to be raped, I'll join your outrage. Til then, count me out.

PJ

As Brazilian, I've got some knowledge about this situation, so I'd like to add some thoughts here.

Tough Brazil is considered a Catholic country, reality is different. I'm not Catholic and though most people I know consider themselves Catholics, just one or two are practicer Catholic. From the 68% of the population considered Catholic, just 20% are practicer. The rest just attend church for weddings and baptisms. ( Religiões no Brasil ) Sorry, the link is in Portuguese:

"Estima-se que apenas 20% dos brasileiros sejam católicos praticantes." - It's estimated just 20% of Brazilians are practicer Catholics.

These people weren't true Catholics because mother and father are divorced (Catholic church doesn't accept divorce) and the mother lived with a 23-year-old man. The mother's age hasn't been released, but she has another 14-year-old daughter with mental problems who was abused by the stepfather, too. I'm not saying the mother is guilt, but a woman with two daughters, one of them with mental problems, should be extremely careful about deciding to live with a man just 9 years older than her oldest daughter. The stepfather abused from both girls for at least 3 years. In all this time an attentive mother should realize something was happening.

I agree. I'm not a Catholic, but I think a church is entitled to defend its rules. Catholic church didn't stop the girl from getting an abortion. Just excluded the mother and doctors involved in the case. It wasn't even a decision from the Bishop. Abortion is cause to automatic excommunication according to Catholic law (Canon Law).

If a person doesn't want to live according to the rules of a religion, just leave it. What is the point of belonging to a church if you don't accept its principles? Nobody is forced to belong to a religion. If you decide to be a Catholic, you must live by Catholic principles. It's the same with any organization. If you want to make part of it, you must accept the rules. If you don't accept these rules just choose another religion and be happy.

As I said before, excommunication isn't such a big deal because these people weren't practicer Catholics. And Brazil has a very broad mixture of religions. There are more Protestants than practicer Catholics. In my city Catholic church has just the main temple and one congregation while just my church (Assembly of God) has more than 20 congregations. Adding the other Protestant churches, the number is still bigger.

Law judged the case and decided the abortion accepting the will of the girl's mother. Her biological father was against the abortion. Catholic church didn't judge anything. It just excluded the involved persons based in a law (Canon Law).

It isn't the case in Brazil, I assure you. If somebody is excommunicated, most people's reaction will be: "Who cares?"

I doubt this man ever attended a church. You'll just find 23-years-old people in Catholic churches if they are practicers, which isn't the case.

All the ado about this situation is more of a scapegoat for a political discussion. Government's party has tried to make abortion legal since Lula became president but most of Congress has been against it. This case is being used to add fuel to this debate.

I know that my opinion won't change anything, but I just wanted to add my two cents because some comments here were way off-key for somebody who lives here and knows Brazilian reality.

Andreia

Thanks, Andreia, for that explanation of what things are like "on the ground" in Brazil. I know I, for one, hadn't known a lot of those details.

{Slightly tangential YAY for what we learn from each other on these boards!}

Bethy

Thanks for the information Andreia. It is very difficult to understand a situation in another country if you are not very familiar with it. I wasn't aware of the low level of Catholic membership in Brazil. That really paints a different picture.
Thanks
Artemis

Thanks for the information, Andreia!

Ann

Yes, thanks Andreia, for the background. It's hard to judge a country from a distance so it's very useful to get a local perspective.

I'm sorry to see I was right about this:

but it certainly sheds new light on the whole situation. I surely hope both the girls are taken away from the whole abusive situation; maybe their biological father could step in, I don't know. To stand by and pretend not to notice (for 3 years! That girl was just 6 when this started!!) while someone abuses your own children is just about as evil as it gets, IMO. Especially a mother. How could she? Talk about sacrificing your daughters...

PJ

Well, sometimes even the Pope is wrong. At least he fixed it.

Artemis