Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Off Topic Universal preschool hasn't delivered results

I'm not sure what the general feeling about universal preschool is on these boards, I don't think I've ever seen it discussed, even. I've been against it for awhile, but then I'm not too fond of the public school system, anyway. I have been looking into homeschooling my two kids for the last year (my kids are 4 and 2) and I'm teaching my older kid to read right now (thank for the Hooked on Phonics kit, mom!). I do find it interesting that research by those who are trying to push universal preschool down our throats and make us send our kids to preschool is showing it's not as necessary as they've been trying to make us believe. I doubt the local moms I've spoken to will change their minds after this, though.


Anyway, here's the article .

Tara

I find it interesting that the article talks about creating kids that "grow up to be smarter, richer and more law-abiding", then quotes a bunch of statistics from standardized tests in order to disprove that claim. How can a standardized reading test assess a student's chance of being more law-abiding when they grow up?

I personally have doubts about how well a standardized test can measure intelligence, let alone how successful a person will be.

I'm not saying that the points made in the article aren't valuable, but rather that the way the authors choose to prove them doesn't seem valid.

I agree that having publicly funded preschools would be a help to at-risk kids who need a positive environment, but I don't see the benefit of pulling other kids out of the home environment so early. I'm not sure how universal preschool works in the US, but I know that in my neck of the woods, even kindergarten is optional. Sure, most parents put their kids into kindergarten because it provides a good transition between the home environment and a more rigid school environment, but this is ultimately up to the parents.

The isn't the only article I've read that talks about how preschool isn't all it's touted to be, it's just the most recent.

Here's another .

I'm not sure how it's done through the rest of the US, as laws vary by state, but here in CA, school isn't mandatory until the child is going to be 6 near the beginning of the school year. Not many people actually know this, at least not many people I've spoken to. They just assumed that kindergarten was mandatory and that you need to get your kids into school asap. Even before my husband and I decided homeschooling was the way for us to go, I wasn't too comfortable with that idea. Nor do I like or trust daycare. I know it's necessary sometimes, but since I didn't have to put my kids in daycare, I didn't.

Tara

When my first son was born, I stayed home for as long as I could - about a year, and I remember having lots of discussion about these kinds of things at my local mother's group. Passions were hot, some people were so SURE about their decisions. Others were terribly anxious that they were doing that wrong thing. That was 18 years ago. A lot has gone on in my life and the lives of all my friends from that group, and here is what we realized over coffee recently.

This is not a decision you make once. It's something that depends on the individual child, the individual school. Your job, your husband's job or lack thereof, the distances involved, the health of your parents, the cost of things, and THEN just when you FINALLY get it sorted out, something changes.
And you know what ? Mostly it's all fine.

I don't think that universal preschool is necessarily a good idea [and I didn't read the articles just yet]. I have DDs age 7, 4 [5 on Tues], 3 and DS1.

DD7 had real developmental delays [verbal mainly] and she benefited greatly from the preschool environment [though the biggest 'jump' in her progress came after the tonsil/adenoids/tubes surgery which fixed her mild sleep apnea]. DD3 is slightly behind in her verbal skills but nearly to the same extent and is benefiting as well. DD4 is in preschool - in part because DD3 is [for free, DD4 is not, if not for that, neither would be]. She enjoys it very much but I don't think it's NECESSARY for her [like I feel it really was/is for the other two b/c they work with speech therapists etc doing things I simply am not able to effectively].

I don't know if Kindergarten is mandatory here or not, but DD7 did and DD4 will next year, DD3 the year after that [and DS two years after that ].

As for daycare... My preference is to stay home with my kids, however, that's not economic reality at this point. That said, I have the best of both worlds. I work part time, and get paid very well for the time I'm at work, and my kids are in an in-home daycare run by a woman we absolutely love and who loves our children almost as much as we do [even though I ask her all the time if we get a discount if she doesn't love on 'em ].

I don't think universal preschool is 'the answer' to anything, but I do think that 'at-risk' kids [however you want to define that] can really benefit from the environment.

Carol [who isn't sure she made her point...]

Much of what I've read about preschool has said that it's good for 'at risk' kids, but not necessarily for the average kid.

Tara

Well I don't have kids since I am only 21, but I like to think it wasn't that long ago that I was in preschool (since I still remember).

Because of my personal situation I am for universal preschool. My birthday is in Sept and while in my state I made the cutoff, they still encouraged my parents to keep me back another year. However, she knew from preschool that I was social enough to be able to enter kindergarten. I also made good friends that lasted many years in preschool.

I think a lot of kids have social problems when they are kept home to long (I see it in my younger cousins.) And I feel that preschool is letting kids interact with others their age sooner and help them to develop their social skills.

Interesting topic, it is important for children to interact with one another. At the end of the day though I would prefer it to be my own choice and not that of the state. I also believe that a child should have as much interaction with their mother and father during the early years.

I also don't think that home schooling or the public system has anything to do with how good or how bad the child turns out at the end of the day the child is the one who benefits from the education and it is up to them to decide what to do with it. That's the stand my parents took with me they left me to my own devices so long as I did my homework, my assignments and my tutoring work.

I've been taught in both public and private schools and I didn't feel either were any different. Of course the private school was a little more strict in terms of being late or leaving early or moving about during class hours, but other than that I thought they were the same.

Of course both schools I went to were small schools and the subjects I chose for my final years of high school were all the sciences which meant that the classes were smaller.

From a mom who homeschools her own kids, I don't think you'd regret this decision. We're in our 8th year. Our oldest (a girl) went to school through 5th grade, then had friends from school. Our oldest son came home in 2nd grade. Our middle son went to kindergarten- which they wanted him to repeat due to attention problems. Our youngest son has never been to school and never will- if I can help it.

As a mom who has children that have had both influences, I beg to differ. The public system (that has nothing to do with the education) has a way of robbing a child of her senses. I'm not saying every child is at risk. But having had a child in the public system and three at home without the influence of that same system- and yes, all have been raised with the same morals and values- I can certainly attest that said system can have adverse effects.

After seeing countless kids that have gone to preschool, then countless more who were homeschooled, I can tell you that this statement is almost laughable. Most families who make the decision to homeschool never even sit down and say, 'we'll start school this year'. Learning becomes second nature- as important as breathing. Everything becomes a learning experience and even for those who send their children to institionalized schools, whether public or private, start teaching their kids long before they're carted off. If you've taught your child to talk, to laugh, to play, your child has developed social skills.

Yep! My kids don't even attempt to pitch a temper tantrum because they know it's unacceptable. My kids don't have to have $100 shoes because that's what all the other kids are wearing. They don't have to stay after school because they were fighting or couldn't stay quiet during a test. They haven't learned what cheating on tests is, lying to get out of trouble... they don't have to witness the cops bring in the drug dogs and search the lockers because some kid brought dope to school (and they do know the horrors of drugs- they're not totally sheltered). They weren't at school the day there was a bomb scare (that was two years ago- and we're in a very rural area). While there can certainly be a few positive aspects involved with public systems, there are twice as many involved with homeschooling. And while I'm not arguing for homeschooling (but I will if you want to), I will argue against any kind of universal preschool. Or for that matter, any kind of government that tells me how to educate my children.

I agree. And it's equally important for parents to carefully choose who their children interact with. Even as teenagers, it's okay to say no when your children ask if they can be friends with the cool kid down the street. And before I get wracked for that statement, I want you to know it comes from a mother who has recently learned that she has no idea who her daughter is- a direct influence of her association with the wrong people.

And according to the US Constitution, that's our given right! Think how horrible it would be if we didn't have that choice.

I can tell you that interaction is some of the best times you'll ever spend with your children. Enjoy it. Treasure it. It fades entirely too fast.

Tara, I'm not sure I helped you any, but I will say that I haven't regretted homeschooling- only that I wish I'd never sent any of my kids to school. As for universal preschool, not a choice I'd make and one a government surely shouldn't make. It's been my experience that children benefit much more from being allowed to freely explore their world and learn at their own pace. Wouldn't that be best achieved in group/setting of a parents' own choosing rather than being forced into a generic setting that might not work for all?

SQD (who needs to hush now)

I don't have children but I have little faith in our public school systems. When I was in first grade I had a terrible teacher. In second grade I was sent to our new Catholic elementary school. The nun gave a number of tests and then sent the kids home that passed them for a week (I didn't pass) and spent a week catching the rest of us up as best she could.

In seventh grade I was in one school system and a different one for 8-12. In the first school system American history went up to but did not include the Civil War that came in 8th grade. That next year I was in a new school system (same state) so no study of the Civil War they covered it the year before. In high school we had to take 2 years American History. So my first year the teacher only made it as far as just before the Civil War. The next year I had the other American History teacher who had covered through the Civil War in the part 1 class. What this boils down to is because of not standardizing classes across the country I never studied parts of our history until I went to college where I made sure I had the same teacher for both semester so that there were no gaps.

It seems to me that there are a lot of problems in the regular 1-12 classes that need to be dealt with before the question of mandatory pre-school even comes up.

What sort of problems. Class sizes, resources, a pay scale that gets truly dedicated teachers. Then there is the ever changing requirements for teachers. An example is my sister who majored in special education for her Bachelors and who also has a master in special ed. Then after 25 years of experience in elementary school special ed she is told she is no longer qualified to teach special ed students so they make her a math teacher. Then there is the growing problem of teachers who have inappropriate relationships with students. Or parents so uninvolved in their childrens lives that they have no idea if they do their homework, attend school etc.

My sister the teacher says one of the biggest problems facing education in this country is the lack of involvement of the parents. That when you call them in because the child is failing they blame the teacher. When the teacher responds that they aren't learning everything they need because they never do homework guess what the parents respond. It's your job to teach them and see they do whatever work is required. When she tries to tell them that she isn't at home with them that they as the parents have to see they do the homework they say they don't have time for it you deal with it it's your job. (She is a mother and says she literally has to bite her lip to keep from asking them why the hell they bothered to have children if they weren't going to be involved in their lives.)

So tell me how is spending billions of dollars on mandatory pre-school going to ultimately see that these kids aren't criminals, are more educated, can get better paying jobs etc. if the parents don't see to it that they do the work required to get the education. Face it pre-school is a glorified play group with a small amount of true educational benefit.

Of course this is my opinion based on my observations of nieces and nephews and friends children and what they tell me.

I haven't read the two articles which Tara earmarked, but I have read many articles that show that there aren't many advantages to preschool after the child has reached the third grade. Just to clarify, while children may appear to be ahead for grades K-3, they don't deliver long-term results.

If I had it to do all over again, I would have held my oldest back for another year. She didn't have the maturity for the skills I was presenting so she just felt stupid. I wish she had played another year, not realizing what she was learning along the way.

I hear a few misconceptions in this discussion. Children who don't go to preschool aren't unsocialized. Unless they are raised by apes they learn to interact with other people. We live in a community so of course they have friends their own age. However, the best social skills they learn aren't from their peers who haven't mastered said skills already, but from adults who know how to behave consistantly.

Second is the misconception that kids only learn in school. They learn every moment they are awake. In fact, if you listen carefully to their make believe, you will hear them incorporating the things they are processing into their playtime.

One thing that is neat is that my kids, who have never been to any school other than homeschool, have never learned the concept of the pecking order. When my eldest's best friend started school she changed radically. Suddenly it was all about being smarter, wittier, prettier. That friendship fell to the wayside, because she was no longer fun to be around. But my daughter (if you don't mind my bragging) never changed. She still dresses the way she wants to dress (even though I think she looks ridiculous), plays using her imagination and does all of the things that most tweenagers are too good to do. She's an individual.

I'm not knocking your choices on where you send your kids to school, but I can say that it does matter. You need to carefully consider what is best for your child, knowing that you reap what you sow. My middle child could be left in the grasslands of Africa and come out knowing how to read and write the native language of whomever she met, as well as having developed a classification system for all of the plants and animals she encountered along the way.

My oldest has a very particular learning style. She would fail miserably in a classroom where she was told to learn the same way everyone else does. Financially speaking, I would rather live on hot dogs and beenie weenies for the next twenty years than to watch her fail. She needs a class of one.

She has blossomed so much over the past few months. While she learns slowly, she is turning into a beautiful young lady. She's learning cursive this year, which she equates with taking an extra art class. I have "y"s all over the place, because she thinks it's the most beautiful letter.

So back to the original question: is universal preschool effective? Mandated preschool is just an excuse to use state funds to pay for childcare. It should be the parents, who know their child more than anyone else, who make the choice where and when (within reason, of course) to send their child to school.


Elisabeth

stopquitdont, I hope it will cheer you up to know that I don't need convincing on the homeschool vs public school. The main thing I'm looking into is which homeschooling option I want to use, as there seems to be many. The local school district, in particular, is a bad one and is one of many things that helped me to decide that homeschooling would be better for both of my children. Right now I'm considering doing a public charter school (either CAVA or Julian Charter School) for a little while until I've learned more about homeschooling. I want to make sure I understand it well enough to not leave out something important, kwim?

Tara

Is the US education system really that bad?

Here, in Hong Kong, the US International school is highly regarded...
not that I'm racing out the door to send my daughter there because the curriculum clashes with what she would return to in Australia later on.

In Australia, my daughter went to 'family daycare' (5 children, 1 'teacher' in the teachers home) to help her with her socialization because up to that point (age 2), she was so clingy to me I couldn't be out of the room for 10 minutes without her getting distressed (and I'm not talking temper tantrums here... I'm talking 'fear'). That model worked wonderfully for her, and it only took her a couple of weeks to go from fear to begging to go to family daycare everyday (which she only went 2 days a week).
Move forward to where we are now, here in Hong Kong, it is "required" for her to be in school by age 3. She turned 4 last week, and because of this, despite the fact she hadn't done first year, she was still placed in second year of school at the school year start in September. She is in a proper classroom of 23 children, with 1 teacher and 2 teachers aides (but all fully qualified). While she is slightly advanced for her age, I was nervous about this. There is a LOT of pressure here on kids learning young and being pushed academically. Some parents here send their 3 and 4 year olds for extra tutoring (!!!) after school to make sure they are 'ahead', and some even go to the extreme of Saturday schooling and tutors.
Apparently the chinese saying goes "stuff the fruit with knowledge while it is young so that it will flourish when it ripens".
I don't necessarily agree with this in the literal academic sense it seems to have applied to it.
I've been relieved to find while my 4 year old does learn words, basic math, etc (plus mandarin.. national requirement), there is no pressure to "perform" at the International school we have her in. The only 'homework' she gets is a 'reader' book once a week. To get into the next level of school for September 2009, she only needs a certain level of comprehension and spoken english... (which the teachers assessed her as having when she walked through their door on day one... she's always been a jabbermouth).
So I guess what I am saying, is while the prospect of compulsory 'school' at age 3 scared me, it hasn't been a bad experience for us because our daughter isn't pressured into heavy academic learning (yet). When my 18 month old son gets to 3 though... that might be a completely different challenge.
I agree with whoever said learning is at home as well as school.
My daughter does as much learning at home with me (I'm a stay at home mum), if not more, than at school. Maths is everywhere in our house, but especially the kitchen. Concepts from music, geography, botany, astronomy, even biology are everyday questions, discussions, and often turn into activities. Language... because my daughter is bi-lingual.. she asks what this or that word is in cantonese, and we learn together (because I'm not a native chinese speaker either)... there is so much a child learns at home that people don't take the time to realise. Even their everyday play and imagination is a learning experience for them...
As much as I miss working (although not necessarily my career), and sometimes it gets tough (when you're asked by your (then 3 year old daughter) why babies come out of a certain orifice for example), and it can be more exhausting than doing a 10 hour day in a paid working environment, the personal rewards, quality time, and memories can not be replaced.
My husband and I actively made the decision for me to stay at home, and we have never regretted it. Our children get something we never got... time with one of their parents and a parent always there to come home to. In fact, our kids get time with both parents as my husband always makes time on weekends, and at night when he is home early enough to focus on them. To us, that is just as important as any 'formal' education they will get from schools regardless of where we are on the planet.

Lisa

Tara, I live in SC, where we have the option of joining a third party association. Which essentially means that what we teach is up to us. We have to teach so many days and all the required subjects, but other than that, it's up to us. And I can tell you that over the years I've discovered what's right for one child is definitely not right for the next. All four have very different learning styles, interests, etc. It's been an adventure to say the least. What does work- and probably would no matter how you choose to teach- is letting the child lead. By that I mean, let the child's interests guide you. My oldest, for example, wants to work in a zoo. Whether he's a research scientist, a vet, or just a keeper, his interests are solely with learning as much as he can about animals. He started high school this year and his entire curriculum is going to be focused in the area he wants to go. Why spend tons of time and energy learning the things you don't need to? Throw in the basics, but let them go explore their interests and watch how much they grow and learn.

If for no other reason in the world someone decides that institionalized schooling is not for their children, this should be it!

Just the point I was making in my earlier post. School does not socialize your kids. You do!

Over the years, my husband has, at times, questioned whether we were doing the right thing by keeping them at home. Then they do something so out of character (like offering up their allowance to pay a bill or buy extra groceries or a gift for someone) and he knows we've made the right decision. Money is tight, but the rewards are worth it.

Absolutely!

SQD