Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Off Topic The Dark Knight gets darker

I agree with my Twin. No one's perfect and it makes the characters more 'real' I think. Plus, there's just something appealing about a tortured soul who's strongest desire is to help others. Kinda reminds me of Mulder... my new crush.

Just thought of something else... He's also called BATman. If he were called ButterflyMan or something a little lighter, I think his character would reflect that. But Bats are nocturnal creatures that are usually thought of as 'intimidating' or whatnot. Ya know and then there's all that Vampire lore and such. I think Bats just represent darkness in general. I think Batman's behavior is appropriate for his name. Did that makes sense?

Like I said, I don't think that Batman is someone who hits women. Despite JoJo's delightfully funny image, I can't remember any instance whatsoever where Batman used undue violence against a woman.

I also realize, of course, that whatever Christian Bale may have done he is not Batman - and it is certainly very possible that Bale is just the latest victim of the celebrity syndrome, where a lot of false rumours get started just because it is funny to gossip about famous people.

I don't agree with Jenn that the Dark Knight is comparable to Lois and Clark. Compared with the new dark Batman, Dean Cain's Clark was such a sunny and optimistic character. The two of them are not the same at all. Nevertheless, I agree with the rest of you that the sweet, funny and innocent Batman and Robin are not comparable to Dean's admittedly flawed Clark/Superman,and the Batman and Robin of yore are probably impossible to resurrect. They were the children of a different time and a different outlook on the world.

Well, it made me sad, nevertheless, to read a review in the New York Times which said that Superman is getting outdated, because he is just too nice. Nowadays, the reviewer said, people want their heroes to be troubled and dark, which is why Batman is such a roaring success.

So I didn't really mean to say that Batman is beating up women, because I really, really don't think he is. I guess I was implying that if people want their heroes to be ever darker, then perhaps they shouldn't be altogether surprised if the men who play these characters turn out to have dark personalities themselves.

Of course I realize that the darkness of a role that an actor plays does not say anything about the actor's own personality. And of course I knew right from the beginning that Christian Bale may well be innocent.

I was being grumpy because of the increasing popularity of ever-darker heroes, and I was being snarky. Sue me.

Ann

I'm not such a fan of words being put in my mouth -- and I didn't say L&C is comparable to TDK. I said that people like to watch characters -- in general -- that are flawed, like Bruce Wayne/Batman, Clark Kent/Superman, Lois Lane, etc. It was not a comparison of the characters, because I don't think Lois and Bruce have anything in common, except ... uh, wrong fandom. Never mind.

I personally have a problem with this statement, because along the same lines, it's saying that we shouldn't be surprised if Charlize Theron kills men because she played someone who does in "Monster," or if Sharon Stone bludgeons men with ice picks because her character did in "Basic Instinct." And I'm pretty sure Glenn Close doesn't boil pet rabbits.

And to say otherwise would be a double-standard.

However, here's an exception: Dean plays a droolworthy man on L&C, and he's pretty droolworthy in real life, too.

Absolutely.

However, if there is an avalanche of movies portraying women in such roles, then this in itself may have an impact on how women are perceived generally in society, and how they are perceived by individual men:

"Why did you kill that woman, Mr. Smith?"

"Because she looked at me all weird like all those women in the movies!"

And if there is an avalanche of movies glorifying angry and violent men, that too may have a number of consequences:



This scene may or may not be from the first Rambo moive, First Blood, from 1982. What I find so interesting is that Rambo was a worldwide success. It was seen by countless young boys and men in all or most of these countries: Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Somalia, Sudan, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Egypt. Among other places. Violence has become extremely glorified in many of these countries since then. I, too, think that other factors than Rambo have been the leading causes for the escalation of violence of these countries, but I don't think that violent heroes like Rambo have not played a part as an inspiration for the increasing violence.

Here is a link showing how the violence has escalated in the Rambo movies from 1982 to 2008:

How the violence in the Rambo movies has increased from 1982 to 2008

If the most popular cinematic heroes become ever darker and more troubled, then I think that may have an impact on people all over the world. I think it may have an impact when it comes to what many people perceive as normal or abnormal, good or bad, heroic or cowardly.

Ann

P.S. No, I don't think Batman resembles Rambo at all.

Is it that the media makes society violent? Or is it that the media reflects violence in society? Is it an Ouroboros?

(please for the love of whatever you love, these are rhetorical questions this drags us even moooore of topic)

The connection between media and society is a slippery slope.

There is no concrete evidence and arguments like this are often wielded prescriptively as it is implicit in Ann's post.

Here Rambo is getting linked to violence (and let me say the repeated mentioning of Middle Eastern countries when there are ample examples of violence in non Middle Eastern countries strikes me as just...*headdesk* It would have made more sense to look at the violence WHERE these movies are made and for WHO they are made. But of course, that would have meant a less easy, less reductive connection to the real world and not dragging the Middle East into it, a considerable feat given today's political climate).

Digression aside, first it's Rambo helping make these places be more violent, then Marilyn Manson encouraging teen mass murder and then its going to be fanfiction enabling pedophiles or some equally troubling accusation. That sort of logic cuts both ways in its reductivism, which is why I dislike it intensely. Give it time and it could be slapped on anything and anyone depending on agenda. Even Batman (who if an emblem of darker and more troubled heroes "impacts" what is accepted as ab/normal, good/bad, heroic/cowardly--positive or negative, y'all decide). Beware.

So, no, thanks. I'm okay with not consuming things I don't agree with instead of applying this sort of logic to them.

alcyone

*Edited to remove "against women"*

Batman has got through a lot of phases, but I understand that the smiling warm Batman with his sidekick Robin in primary colours, is loathed in the Batman fandom.
And those who like Adam West´s "POW" Batman do it because it¨s comedic value.

And well, If you are trying to instill some kind realism in the character he sort of have to be dark. Why would George Clooney dress like a bat and chase criminals across rooftops?
He just wouldn´t and people cant suspend their disbelief.


Batman uses fear and intimidation as tools. And lives with his own all time. Personally I always liked the brooding lonely billionare that no one knows except his butler-father substitute. With the resources and time to nurse his hurts.

Okay! Please! I was being snarky. And I didn't say that Rambo creates violence against women. I didn't mention violence against women in my post about Rambo.

So why did I mention all those Middle East countries? Well, because there is another kind of violence going on in many of those countries, terrorism. And as far as I can remember, there was little terrorism in the Middle East when I grew up, in the days b.R. (before Rambo), when the most popular heroes were a bit nicer. There was a bit of terrorism carried out by Palestinians, who hijacked airplanes more than once. And then there was that terrible attack on Israeli athletes in the Olympic Games in Munich in 1972. But, by and large, there was not a lot of terrorism. There was nothing like what we have seen in recent years.

However, I certainly realize that the main factors influencing the much wider use of violence in the Middle East these days are not violent heroes like Rambo. And yes, I agree that the connection between popular entertainment and any sort of violence in society has not been proven, at least not as far as I know.

I was being snarky. Do I think that Batman is destroying our world? Do I think he is an awful misogynist? Do I think that Batman sees to it that women in the Middle East get beaten up? No!!! Nononnononono!!! Please! Sorry, Batman. Smile for me.



Ann

After checking in on this thread several times I found I had a few things to say. But first though I may be blunt (one of my major character flaws) I AM NOT TRYING TO HURT ANY ONE so I'm not going to point any fingers. This is just my opinion and feels on some of what has been posted here. So please no responses with verbal knife throwing. I don't have an emotional shield to hide behind.

This whole story about Christian Bale is what I find wrong with the media. Especially the media that covers entertainment - actors, singers, movies etc. They put out a head line that make people go "OH MY GOD" and makes people think things that aren't true. After reading the beginning of this thread I sought out stories because I hadn't paid any attention as usual to what I consider a gossip story. Well I've now read or seen several different stories on this and a few of them said that part of the fight was over the fact that his sister wanted him to give her $200,000 dollars to raise her children.

Why is CB responisble for supporting her children and why does she need $200,000 all at once if she wants it to raise her children. The expenses for raising them doesn't happen all at once. She and her children are not CB's responsiblity and if he does choose to help, whatever help he gives she should appreciate.

Personally, from all that I've read and heard it sounds like they were asking for a large sum of money, he said no and they got pissed and a fight started. Which I'm sure escalated things were said and they decided on some revenge. OF COURSE I DON"T KNOW IF ANY OF THIS IS TRUE but it is what I've inferred from the media accounts. Which makes me even more unsure of the validity of any of it.

I'm sorry but verbal yelling even threatening is not assault. Sounds like a real asinine law - IMHO. If cussing out your parents or siblings or any one else for that matter was really assault everyone if the WORLD would have to be arrested at some point in their life. Fights happen, tempers flare and we say things that we would never do. I'm sure most of use I threatened someone with physical harm at sometime I know I have because of the extremely hurtful comments they made. I guess I should turn myself into the police.

As for the premise are actors like the parts they play. Let's not forget John Shea of our own LnC. He played in my opinion the evilest incarnation of Lex Luthor. Does this mean that he is as nasty as Lex Luthor, I sincerely doubt it.

Also do movies promote violence, racism or sexism. I have a brother who grew up watching all the action/war movies, played cops and robbers, war, built forts had play guns, cap pistols and really guns as he got older. Now he is a minister. So no by themselves movies and TV don't make us violent, racist or sexist children or adults. Lack of involved parents deciding what is age appropriate and explaining that it is make beleive and not the way people do or should act towards each other, coupled with other forces takes innocent children and turns them into children and adults with these tendencies. Again IMHO.

And should we believe story headlines about actors. Hell No. A case in point from like 15-20 years ago - Leonard Nimoy leaves wife for younger woman was the headline in the Enquire (I think). Any way since I am a Star Trek fan I had to read the article. What a hogwash headline. He was 50, his wife was 51 and the woman he left her for was in her late 40's. I think 48. Give me a break. Men his age at the time would normally go for some one young enough to be their daughter - that is why I remember all these years later. So should we believe headlines or stories about actors until ALL the facts come out which takes time. NO.

So maybe as a fan based board we should concentrate more on their performances as actors and less on their personal lifes. There is nothing wrong with innocent chit chat about who their dating, new projects, vacations etc., but when as a fandom question the core of their personalities, especially without reliable information then I think we have gone too far. Again IMHO.

That said hope Christian gets his privacy and life back. Of all the actors that have played Batman Christian Bale is my all time favorite. The other versions for me were too dark through out the movie. There wasn't enough contrast which is what I prefer.

Well said, Kmar.

And I have to comment on this:

As someone who writes newspaper headlines for a living, I wholeheartedly agree. To quote Lois in "Sex, Lies and Videotape," those type of salacious publications are "only after sleaze --you're a disgrace to legitimate reporters like Clark and myself!"

Meaning: Those of us who work in the mainstream media and write such headlines as "Oil prices fall for second straight day" tend to cringe when we see such "OH MY GOD" headlines. So not ALL media thinks that way, but because the number of celeb-gossip magazines and blogs, etc., has grown so much, the media as a whole gets a bad rap.

A few months ago, some celeb news sites had a headline about Dean "dating his former 'Lois & Clark' co-star" ... now you'd think that would be Teri, right? SHE was his co-star, after all. Well, it turned out to be that he was seen with Jessica Collins (Mindy Church) a few times, but I'll give them credit for this, because no matter how shady it is, I'd bet money a trillion more people read it when there was even the slightest notion it could be Teri, rather than someone no one has ever heard of and guest-starred on the show twice.

Unfortunately, when the press throws out a bone, the public devours it, and the circle of sleaze continues, and then all of a sudden, the rumors become half-truths, and then perceived truths. I'm sure it will be just a matter of time before (because of that headline I mentioned), celeb blogs are saying Dean had a threesome with Teri and Jessica, and, furthermore, that Christian not only hit his family members, but also beat up the whole cast and crew of TDK. :rolleyes:

Yes, I was referring to the gossip rag papers and magazines when saying they use "OH MY GOD" headlines. Although the gossip shows do it as well with the sound bite taken out of context that they use as the lead in commercials to get you to tune into the show. They also use them as the lead out to commerical to get you to stayed tuned to the show.

My comments weren't directed to trully legit newspersons.

Oh no, I know. I am just saying that as a legit newsperson, I can't stand it either, and maybe even more so, because it gives the profession such a bad name.

Just a few more thoughts, since I started this thread.

It is certainly true that celebrities suffer more than their fair share of bad publicity, simply because gossip sells. I remember an article I read in USA Today, which claimed that an entire industry had grown up around Britney Spears. According to the USA Today article, all sorts of media people kept hoping that Britney Spears would make some sort of mistake again, so that they could make still more money on her personal misery.

Christian Bale hasn't suffered nearly as much at the hands of gossip media, but there is no doubt that they made whatever they could of his arrest. It can certainly be argued that I shouldn't have posted a link about it here. I did it not because I know anything whatsoever about Christian Bale, because I don't, but because I miss the Batman of my childhood. That's all.

Are actors evil because they play evil characters? Was John Shea like Lex Luthor in real life because he played the man in LnC? No. Of course not. That goes without saying. Can an actor be offered a menacing role if he's got a bit of a menacing personality himself? Possibly. Can an actor be offered a menacing role just because he is such a good actor? Of course.

Will kids become violent if they watch violent movies? There is no way there can be such a simple causal connection between movies and violent behaviour for the individual child. There is a host of factors influencing kids' behaviour. There's genetic predisposition, parenting, siblings, economic factors, neighbourhood, school and friends, and there are all these ideals and beliefs that permeate societies, and that differ from society to society and from subculture to subculture. A million factors go into creating the general behaviour of kids. Can the level of violence in popular movies and other forms of popular culture be regarded as one such factor influencing the behaviour of kids? Yes, I firmly believe so. Can a high level of violence in popular culture lead to an increase of violent behaviour in the young population of a society? Yes, I think it can, and I think it will, unless it is counteracted by other strong factors influencing kids in this society.

Ann