Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Off Topic Boring Anne (of Green Gables) syndrome

Did you see the results of the LnC fanfic genre poll? Most popular of eighteen genres you could choose between was, not suprisingly, romance. Number fifteen, tied with deathfics, was married fics (where Lois and Clark have small kids). I have to wonder - is marriage equal to death, fiction-wise?

When I was a kid I read Anne of Green Gables. I loved, loved, loved the first book, where Anne was, if I remember it correctly, eleven years old. I thought Anne was terrific! She was simply sparkling and bubbling with energy and happiness and life. She so very, very much wanted to be a good girl, but she had all kinds of unfortunate accidents - such as when she put cough syrup instead of vanilla in the cake she had baked for the vicar's wife, or when she tried to dye her red hair a rich chestnut color, but accidentally dyed it greenish-brown instead. (Her foster mother Marilla cut Anne's hair all off close to the scalp, because in those days it was more unforgivable for a girl to have green hair than to have no hair at all - can you imagine?)

Already at the end of the first book, Anne was a lot more mature and thoughtful, and she had no more horrible accidents. She slowly became more interested in a boy, Gilbert, whom she had hated when she was eleven. He had pulled at one of her red braids in school, where everyone could see and hear them, and said, "It's on fire!". Anne resolved never to forgive him. Later, she resolved to do better at school than him. And she succeeded, pretty much, because at least she and Gilbert were the two best students at their school.

After Anne left the school that all the other kids at Saint Mary's Mead (or whatever the place was called) also went to, she went on to study at a teachers' training college. Anne and three other girls rented a small house together, and they became great friends and had a generally splendid time. Later Anne got a job as a teacher and liked that, too. But she grew apart from her old friends in Saint Mary's Mead. Her best friend Diana had married young and become fat (well, that's how I remember it), and now she was really interested only in her equally chubby husband and their ugly little baby boy. And another of Anne's old friends, Ruby, had actually died. I hated death-of-women fics even back then, so I was shocked and upset.

Then Gilbert came back into the story and started wooing Anne for real, and this time she was quite responsive. She fell in love with him and agreed to marry him. I remember that particular book as quite romantic. When I had finished reading it, I eagerly started looking for the next one. Now I wanted to read about Anne's married life!

But, alas! How boring that book was. And how - well, unexciting and unsatisfying her married life seemed to be. Nothing much happened. Gilbert, the boy who had done no better at school than her, was now a medical doctor who was away all day, while she was at home, doing pretty much nothing. As an educated woman, she didn't seem to have all that much in common with the women who were her neighbours. Anne seemed to spend much of her time by going for long lonely walks, or at least that is how I remember it. There was one woman she met that she became interested in, whose name was Lesley Ford. Lesley Ford was very unhappy in her marriage. She had been happy enough with her husband, who was a sea captain, until he disappeared at sea. He was presumed to be dead. But then he was found, and he returned home to his wife, but he was like another person. He had apparently hit his head, and now he had become mean. Poor Lesley Ford was so unhappy. Ah, but then it turned out that her husband wasn't her husband after all! He was her husband's twin brother! He really had hit his head, and he suffered from partial amnesia, but he wasn't her husband. Lesley Ford was free. And she had been discreetly seeing a young man - completely chastely, of course - but she loved him, and now she was free to marry him. What a happy ending!

Ah, but - when I read about Lesley Ford, it suddenly occurred to me that her name resembled L.M. Montgomery's own name, Lucy Maud. Lucy Maud - Lesley Ford. Lucy Maud Montgomery, the creator of Anne of Green Gables and Lesley Ford. Perhaps Lucy Maud wrote about her own unhappy marriage when she wrote about Lesley Ford? Perhaps she gave Lesley Ford the wishful-thinking-happy-ending that she herself could never have?

And perhaps Anne's marriage seemed so boring and unsatisfying because Lucy Maud's own marriage was just like that?

Or perhaps Lucy Maud did have a bit of sexual satisfaction in her own marriage, but it was absolutely impossible to breathe as much as a syllable about that in a book whose readership consisted of young women and girls? So if that was the only good thing between Anne and Gilbert, then it was impossible for Lucy Maud to even hint at any nightly pleasures that her fictional heroine might have enjoyed. But whether or not her sex life was good, it was enough to make Anne pregnant in the next book. But the word "pregnant" was never mentioned, oh no! One day a neighbour came by and gave Anne a baby shirt. That's how we were told that Anne was having a baby. After that we were told nothing whatsoever until the night when Anne was giving birth. Then she thought she was going to die, and then she gave birth to a little girl who really died. And a suitable time later Anne gave birth to a boy, who survived.

The last book I read in the series was called "Lilla Marilla" (Little Marilla(?) in English). The story focused on Anne's daughter Marilla. To my shock, Anne herself was hardly even mentioned in that book, even though young Marilla herself was still living at home with her parents! I compared the book about little Marilla with the first book about Anne, where the older Marilla had been an imposing presence. Not so Anne in this last book. The vivacious, happy young girl had become a married woman who faded into the wallpaper until you could hardly find her. Even though she was probably no more than about forty-five years old, it was as if Anne was completely spent as a focus for stories, as if absolutely nothing could be told about her any more.

And I was thinking about stories about married Lois and Clark. I really don't think that Clark is spent as a "story force" after he has been married to Lois for a while. After all, he is Superman. He can fight villains. And if he and Lois have children, then Clark can teach his kids how to be super. He can even become a widower and fall in love with another woman. If nothing else, Clark can spend a lot of time away from home and make new (male) acquaintances.

But what will happen to Lois after she has been married to Clark for several years? Will she become a housewife whose daily chores are not worth mentioning? Will she be confined to her house? Will she fade into the wallpaper?

Is it possible to write engrossing stories about middle-aged married Lois and Clark, where Lois is still a vital force and still an important part of the story? I'm just wondering.

Ann

Oh, P.S.... I know, I know. "When the World Finds Out" by C.C. Aiken is an amazing story about middle-aged married Lois and Clark. I'm just wondering if there are any other stories like that.

Oooooh, tons. Unfortunately, my brain has seized up and I can't remember many titles or authors. But I'm sure that others will.

For starters, try Erin Klingler's stories on the Archive. She's written several with an older Lois and Clark.

LabRat

Oh, Jenni Debbage's series. In fact, The Forgotten was nominated for a Kerth last year as Best Overall. So some people must be liking Lois and Clark married with kids fics.

And Nan Smith's Dagger series.

Others will likely occur to me later.

c.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Nan's "married Lois and Clark" stories the kind where Lois is pretty much confined to the house, concentrates on having babies and doing housewifely chores, and pretty much fades into the background?

Ann

I believe you mean Avonlea. I loved that series growing up! Prince Edward Island (where fictional Avonlea is supposed to be) is just two hours from here, and we visited the Green Gables House in Cavendish on Vacation one year (L.M. based the setting on real places from her youth).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_of_Green_Gables This site can fill in any blanks in your memeory. (I know theres a better one, but I can't find it right now. It's been years since I wrote a paper on it...


Desiree

I wouldn't have put it that way, although I admit that I haven't reread some of the Dagger series stories for some time. Yes, at times Lois is pregnant, which does restrict her reporting activities somewhat, but I would never characterize her as "fading into the background". She's far too strong a character for that.

As far as AOGG is concerned, I haven't read the books since I was young, but I do have the three Canadian TV productions on DVD and have watched them often. I do remember reading that Lucy Maud Montgomery at some point in the series grew tired about writing about these people, but the public (and her publishers!) kept demanding more. She did write other books, of course, but it does sound as though she wrote more than one in the Anne series to please her public, rather than herself. I also know that one of Lucy Maud's children died at birth, which was probably the impetus behind the death of Anne's child.

Since it's been so long since I've read the books, I don't remember whether Anne's marriage was portrayed as happy, or sad, or dull, or whatever. Nor do I know anything about Lucy Maud's marriage. Perhaps any description of Anne's was a mirror image of Lucy Maud's; perhaps they were different in many ways.

She could have written about happiness and joy in the marriage, but no discussion of sex, I would think. As you said, the readership included young girls, and this was the early 1900's. People didn't allude to sex in books read by children.

Regarding story recommendations: a lot of the time when authors write next-gen stories they want to concentrate on L&C's children and what adventures happen to them in their lives, so even though L&C may figure in the story (in fact, they usually do), they are not necessarily the primary characters.

You should try, if you haven't already:
Jude's The Circle Game and its sequel, Secrets
Irene's Firestorm series
Cindy's Dawn of Discovery series
Crystal Wimmer's Full Circle series

Kathy

Hah, should have know Kathy would have been able to add what my memory had fuzzed on. Yes, those too.

c.

As Desiree mentioned, Anne grew up in Avonlea. When she married Gilbert, she moved to Glen Saint Mary, which does indeed sound a lot like Saint Mary's Mead!

St. Mary Mead is actually the home of Jane Marple, Agatha Christie's elderly mystery-solving heroine. Miss Marple is a perfect example of the fact that a quiet domestic life (married or otherwise) can be interesting and exciting if you look beneath the surface.

And in that vein, I doubt that Lois Lane would lead a boring, fade-into-the-wallpaper life even if she was married a hundred years. Her character is too strong. But that doesn't mean her entire life has to revolve around apprehending villains. It is not outside the realm of possibility for an intelligent, vivacious woman to find happiness and adventure in activities that don’t result in a headline. Whether that person is married to Superman or a small-town doctor is beside the point.

Whether the stories of that person’s life are interesting to others is obviously a personal choice. I, for example, loved Anne’s House of Dreams (the book that chronicles the early years of Anne and Gilbert's marriage). Ann (er, our Ann ) didn’t. And that’s ok. But it's not fair to write someone off as boring just because their primary activity is raising their kids and being a supportive partner to their spouse.

Lisa

I have to say that I find your perception of Anne's marriage quite puzzling Ann. The Anne of Green Gables series have been one of the closest to my heart since I was fourteen, and for me, her marriage epitomized thekind of husband-wife relationship I'd aspire toward.

Personally, I thought this was merely because most people aren't very interested in reading about kids. Or the fact that once people fall into a steady pattern and routine that is necessitated by a marriage, a lot of the relationship issues we like to explore have already been resolved. The thing about having a happily ever after is that they're boring to other people.

It's not a case of whether it was socially acceptable for a girl to have dyed her hair an unorthodox colour. It was that Anne dyed her hair puke-green. I think even today, cropped hair would draw less school-yard bullying than hideous puke-green braids.

It's interesting how different our takes on Diana's marriage is. From my perspective, Diana married at the age that was considered suitable for women of that time, and always having being a domestic soul, she loved her husband and revelled in motherhood. On behalf of women who are content to stay home and take care of their families, I find the connotations in your wording rather insulting. Should she only been wrapped up in her family if her husband had been less chubby and bland and her baby more beautiful?

Personally, I always thought Diana's family life was very sweet, because in the end she was a fulfilled woman, with children she could be proud of and a husband who never made a slight in his affections toward her no matter how much weight she gained as the years went on. Her life was a very prosy, bland one, but I loved how Montgomery kept illustrating that there is romance in such lives as well, and that should be appreciated as well as that which is found in more glamourous circles.

Ruby's death was very important to the book, because she personified a life that had been devoted solely to superficial self-congratulation and self-obsession. It took death for Ruby to realize that there were greater things than those bound to earth, and in facing death with this realization, her character was elevated and given depth. It is a religious message that is typical of Montgomery's writing, and other writers of her time period; however, it is one that can be applied to the ultimate message of earthly transience that is inherent in all major religions today. I highly doubt it had anything to do with her being a woman. Louisa May Alcott used the same device to convey the same message when she killed Prince Charlie's character in Rose in Bloom.


Again, you are applying the standards and social perceptions of our own times to Anne's life. It was expected of women to give up their careers once they were married, and Anne was hardly a social reformist. She enjoyed her career in teaching, but it has always been clear that having a family of her own - which she has never really had, until then - was her goal, ever since she fell in love with Gilbert.

And again, strikes against the housewife. Ann, I'm not exactly a housewife, but I've been taking care of my family during the holidays as my mother has gone on a trip to the UK and my father has to work all day. So I do rather take personal umbrage at your disparaging implications. Taking care of two kids and a house is hardly "doing nothing all day", let me tell you. And that is in the modern day, with all the conveniences available to me. I can't imagine how busy Anne must have been a hundred years ago, with a considerably huger house, a harried doctor who really sucks at taking care of himself, six small children and all the social obligations that comes of holding a prominent position in an urban community. Being a housewife is a career far nobler and harder one than most people realize.

I know there are people who'd say that housewives are people who waste their potential by confining themselves to their home. The fact of the matter is, that housewives do not usually confine themselves to their family, and even if they do, I cannot see the waste in applying one's talents and capabilities to care for the ones you love most.

I myself chafe at my household duties because I've never been a particularly domestic animal. But Anne is a person who was raised differently, and of different tastes, and Montgomery made it clear that she was supremely talented in the art of finding pleasure in simple things.


You seem to paint a picture in which this situation chafed at her as much as it would chafe at you. Gilbert bought that first house only after taking into consideration all his wife's needs. When he opined that she might be lonely there sometimes, she assured him that she wouldn't be. Many a woman might, but Anne was a special case, with her well-honed talent for optimism and love of nature.

Clark: "Lois, what am I doing now?"
Lois: "Reaching?"
Clark: "And I'm not the only one."

Anne was hardly ever bored or unsatisfied. I'm telling you because I have the book open in front of me. The life she led was not to our taste, but there could be no doubt that she liked it.

This book was published in 1917 with a target readership of young girls who still only got the birds and the bees talk before their wedding nights. I admit, I was disappointed that there wasn't even a hint of smut (the way Anne referred to "keeping bridal tryst" on her wedding night, she might as well have been out picking daisies with Gilbert the whole evening) but then, that was hardly different from other writers of that genre, in that period. The author was clearly either as reticent as a women of her time were expected to be, or she was being careful of convention.

I rather think that the wonderful camaraderie, humour and fulfillment they found in each other were good things enough to hint that Anne's marriage was a very happy one. I refer to the scene where Gilbert and Anne are having a casual heart-to-heart by the front steps before they meet Miss Cornelia for the first time.

Really? The one I read was called "Rilla of Ingleside".


Again you must account for the time period, Ann. Anne was about forty-five years old in this book, and in that time that was considered pretty old. Also, Anne was by now enough of a well-rounded and fulfilled individual that her own story did not make for great plot. Her role was in the capacity of a mentor, and her presence was felt very strongly by me through the legacy of wisdom and upbringing she had bestowed upon her children. The story was centered around Rilla's own coming of age and how the war affected the Blythe children. It's interesting to note that in Rilla, we have a character very different from Anne, one who is also closer to the average girl than Anne, with her coddled existence, vanity and obsession with trivialities. She wasn't as close to Anne as her siblings were, although that changed through the course of the story.

Although I missed Anne myself in this book, in retrospect, I still love the glimpses of her life that we were given in the book. Youthful for her years, admired by the whole community and still fulfilled in her love and her home. I love the scene where she reminisces about their courtship with Gilbert, and the subtle little tid-bits that showed us how tender and loving her relationship with her husband still was. Added to that was an air of gentleness and wisdom that allowed her to guide her family in the face of her own devastation at losing her son.

As I said above, there were plenty of subtle things that told of her how far her character had evolved. But yes, her story was done. And I don't mean that her story was done for her, because I'm sure she continued to grow as a person until she died. But her story can hold no more enjoyment fo r us seekers of conflict and drama, and for Anne, this is indubitably a good thing. Because Happily Ever After doesn't make for a good story.

Well, Woman in the Mirror is still being written, but it perfectly matches all your requirements, so I think you know what my stand is on that.

I leave you with this quote from Anne of the Island:

I came back to comment more on Anne Blythe's life and her marriage, but Hasini touched on all the points I was going mention. So this is me saying, "Yeah, what Hasini said!"

Lisa

I can't comment on AoGG because I never read them, but I have to agree completely with this from Hasini:

When I went through my phase of reading romance novels when I was a teenager I always used to hate it when the author married the characters off at the end and gave them kids - that always spelled the death of romance to me.

I have to qualify that personally to say that I actually have never minded reading married LNC fic. Heck, even wrote a few myself. Next Gen/kidfic is probably at the bottom of my list to read, still, though. I'm very much in Tank's camp on that one. Minus the odd exception here and there through the years, I'd much rather read about a married LNC who have still to become a family or an unmarried LNC.

LabRat

I happen to like stories with the older, married Lois and Clark. Probably because I'm old. But definitely no kids. They destroy the ability of Lois and Clark to be Lois and Clark.

You don't have to 'build' the relationship, but there are still plenty of opportunities within the framework of a good story to have a lot of angst if you wish, and I think the instances of humor are even more available.

One of my favorite scenes has always been Lois' reaction to the break-in news conference that happened in Super Mann where they mention that Superman has been 'taken care of'. They weren't married yet, but for all practical purposes they were a coupled unit. Her concern for 'Superman' is heightened by the fact that he is also her fiancee Clark, and that is easy to see.

I think back on shows like Hart to Hart, McMillian and wife, and the old movie serials of The Thin Man. In these situations, the couple worked as a team to solve the problem at hand, but still had plenty of opportunities to get into trouble together, or individually.

With the relationship fairly well-established I thought the emotional component was amped up because we knew the depth of their love for each other. The highs were higher, and the lows lower. There was no need to waste time 'realizing' what they really meant to each other.

I'm not saying that the series gave us better stories and writing once they put the two together. They didn't. I think many Hollywood writers have a hard time writing a mature, loving relationship. But that doesn't mean it can't be done. In the hands of a good writer stories set in the midst of the couples life together can be just as exciting, and enjoyable as those set in the 'early days'.

The reason I don't want kids in the story (aside from the fact that I don't like children) is that as soon as a child enters into a story they, by default, become the center of the story. Even if they aren't actually featured prominantly, as parents Lois and Clark's behavior has to change. The child must become their priority. I'm not interested in stories where Lois and Clark are merely supporting players, or are constrainged from acting like I know Lois and Clark should act.

At least that's my opinion.

Tank (who also points out that the married Lois had the better haircut)

I posted in haste earlier, so I didn't touch on the topic Ann raised of being a housewife, with a dull life, etc. I am a housewife - have been ever since my son was born (he's a teenager now). Some of the reasons that I stopped working were by choice; others beyond my control and remain so. Back in LM's time, a woman giving up her career to marry and raise a family was the norm, rather than the exception. Today it's much rarer, of course, and unfortunately is often greeted with the same amount of condescension and lack of respect that the "career" women of the early 1900's probably faced.

So thanks for the words of support people have given to the housewife. I certainly appreciate it...

Kathy

I hesitate to sound a little miffed but I am. If you read the last stories of the Dagger series, Ann, you'd have seen that although Lois was confined to the house because of her medical problems she *still* managed to help solve the problem of the stalker/serial killer in "Suspicions" and in "Mother's Day" played a significant part. And at the end we have Clark thinking about how he's missed her as his partner at the Planet and how glad he is that she'll soon be back. I don't think that sounds as if I intend to have her settle down into obscurity, does it?

In the case of Anne of Green Gables, I think you're making the mistake I've seen often these days -- judging a story written in another era by the standards of today. That simply can't be done if you are to evaluate a work like Anne fairly. You have to take the chronology into account. Think about it in another kind of context -- wouldn't a story about the American Revolution be pretty silly if you think that Washington's army could have used a sub while crossing the Deleware instead of boats, or where you say "But why were his men freezing at Valley Forge? Didn't they have space heaters and sleeping bags insulated with synthetic fibers to keep the cold out?" The time in which things happen is all important, as are the mores of that time. If you wrote Anne as a woman of the 21st Century she wouldn't have been even believable set in the context of a century ago. But Anne of Green Gables and the subsequent books are classics. Which says that the author got things just right.

Nan

Right, I put my words about Diana's marriage harshly. And I didn't disapprove of her marriage. But to me, she had been interesting mostly because she had been Anne's friend. The scene I'm describing, from memory, is when Anne came to see Diana shortly after her dear friend had had her first baby. I remember a sense of melancholy in that scene on Anne's part, because she felt rather strongly that Diana had entered into a world where she couldn't follow. She was sad because she and Diana were growing apart, and indeed I can't remember that the two of them saw each other a lot after that. And in view of how incredibly important Diana had been to Anne during her childhood in Avonlea, growing apart was a sad thing for her.

But I want to underscore that I never got the impression that Diana's marriage was wrong for her. On the contrary, I, too, thought that she seemed very happy in it. Fred, her husband, was indeed a sweet man, and I don't think Diana wanted a lot more in life than Fred and the home and the children she had with him.

I quite agree that Anne wanted a family. And that was for several reasons. I'm sure she wanted a family, of course. But it must also be remembered that the alternatives to having a family weren't great for a woman in her day. Anne could have remained a teacher, but only if she stayed unmarried. Weren't female teachers always called 'Miss'? That was because they automatically had to quit if they got married. And unmarried women didn't enjoy the same respect as married ones around the year 1900. In Sweden, we had a female writer who was in fact famous over large parts of the world at that time, Selma Lagerlöf. Because her books sold so very well both at home and abroad, she had become quite rich. In her local district of Värmland, she was one of the most important employers, because she had bought a lot of land and employed many farm workers. And yet, when the people of Värmland had their grand local parties, where everyone took part, Selma Lagerlöf was was given a rather humble and obscure seat, slightly to the side, because she was an unmarried woman. The married women all sat at better, more "honorable" tables. I'm sure that unmarried women in Avonlea were similarly looked down on. So when Anne said yes to Gilbert, she said yes not only to him, but to the life she was expected to live as a woman of her time.

I know it isn't! But I want to point out two things. Some upper-class women had servants, who did all the housework for them, and there really were women of that time who did practically nothing!

I don't know if Anne had any servants. I didn't get the impression that she did. But the way I remember the books, L.M. Montgomery didn't write much, or anything at all, about Anne's housework. And since Anne probably spent most of her day doing housework, but Montgomery didn't want to write anything about that, her way of describing Anne's life made it seem as if Anne wasn't doing anything.

Let me add that I loved Laura Ingalls Wilder's books about her family's life as settlers at the frontier in America in the late nineteenth century. Ingalls Wilder described everything the family did in order to survive in painstaking detail, including all the housework they did, and I found it all absolutely fascinating. But Montgomery didn't describe Anne's housework, as if it wasn't worth mentioning. That is what made it seem boring or unworthy to me.

The way Montgomery wrote about Anne, I got the impression that she wasn't much of a domestic animal, either. And that is precisely my objection to the life Anne led. She didn't have much of a choice, and to me she didn't seem happy as a married woman. Or at least, L.M. Montgomery failed to make me feel her happiness.

The question mark I put in there was meant to say that I didn't know what the English title was. Thanks for telling me.

Well, here we must agree to disagree. I felt Anne's presence hardly at all in that book. But then, to me it is not enough to feel a woman's presence exclusively through her children - particularly if her children aren't talking or thinking about their mother.

I remember Anne's presence in a single passage in that book. That is when Anne suddenly, and to me almost shockingly, opens her mouth to speak. She says to Gilbert(?) that she has just found her very first grey hair that morning. And I think Gilbert gives her a rather sweet answer, although I can't remember what it was.

As far as I can remember, Anne never said another word in that book.

And I loved that fic! Please finish it, Hasini!

Hasini, you gave me a very sweet quote from the book Anne of the Island. But unless I'm very wrong, Anne isn't married in that book. The love Anne describes there, which is waiting for her, is not the love of her husband and family. It is, rather, the love of her foster mother Marilla and Mrs Rachel Lynde, who wait for her in Anne's childhood home of Green Gables. To me, that quote is worthless as proof that Anne was happy in her marriage.

And Kathy, please - I wasn't writing what I did in order to make a general attack on housewives. Why should I question anybody's right to live the life that he or she wants? But it just seemed to me that married Anne didn't have a very good life, and maybe not a life that she really, really wanted. Or at least not a life that was good for her. My points were these:

1) it seems to be rather unpopular to write LnC fanfics about married Lois and Clark, and

2) Anne of Green Gables is an example of a girl who grew up to be a housewife, and, to me at least, seemed to have a rather unfulfilling life as a housewife (although I most certainly don't doubt that she loved her children).

I was wondering if it is considered generally hard to write satisfying fics about married LnC, and I was using Anne of Green Gables as an example of a woman who was, to me at least, "killed as a character" by her marriage. I was really asking people if Lois has to be "killed as a character" if she has been married for a long time to Clark. I was really hoping that you would say that there are many absolutely great fics about married Lois and Clark!

I do think that Lois seems to be the wrong sort of person to devote her life exclusively to her house and her children. To me, Lois seems too interested in the world for me to be happy with the idea that she would "close her doors to shut out the world" if she got married.

Let me comment on something LabRat said:

Personally I don't like it when the kids take over the story. I don't want Lois and Clark, and certainly not Lois, to be relegated to a background supporting role while the kids take center stage. I want the focus of the story to be on Lois and Clark! I don't mind if they have kids - heck, I love it if they have kids! - but I want to see the kids through Lois and Clark's eyes, rather than having the kids grab the story all for themselves. That's why I don't want to read married Lois and Clark stories that are really Next Generation fics.

Ann

I still feel rather mystified as to how you could have found Anne's marriage unfullfilling, Ann-spelt-without-an-e. And I rather think you miss the point of the AotI quote I put up. But if you still want verification that Anne had the same attitude toward her married life, here are some quotes from Anne of Ingleside:

You know, even I would want an unfulfilling marriage like that.

Montgomery didn't describe the housework painstakingly like she did in the previous books, but she distinctly made it clear that it was a happy, busy time for Anne, engaged in putting her new nest in order. We are given to understand that she grew into a meticulous housewife under Marilla's strict tutelage, and if she had more free time on her hands than other married women (because her house was small and she did not yet have children), it hardly qualifies the statement that "she did nothing all day". And no, Anne had no help until she was well advanced into her first pregnancy.

And I still don't understand how you could say that Montgomery didn't make us feel Anne's happiness when it is her sincere and heartfelt appreciation of life that runs through the voice of the entire book (except for the part where she grieves over the loss of her first child). I suppose it is the reader that makes the book after all.

Regarding women who married into affluent households and "only had to manage servants" all day; the argument there is two-fold. One is that these women were/ are not housewives so much as ladies of leisure and it simply does not do to compare the two situations. These women are usually socialites who are active in promoting charities and causes and generally making a career of supporting their husband's aspirations, which I personally find admirable. The other is that having servants usually means that your estate is large and your duties are many. Jane Austen and Daphne Du Maurier make it sound like they never had to do anything but make calls and go to parties day in and day out, but this is largely a generalization. Managing a large household with several servants, when done conscientiously, is an art unto itself and not just a case of issuing orders. There was once a time when my own family lived that kind of life, and frankly, living in a smaller house and doing your own chores is far less of a headache than employing so many others to do them for you.

As for the percentage of rich, married women who do nothing productive with their days, I think they are really no different from the rich unmarried women who do the same thing. It's nothing to do with marriage and everything to do with the kind of person that you are.

Hasini said so much of what I was going to, but I can't not comment, when you're taking a series of books so close to my heart and warping the plot, without even describing it accurately (something, by the way, you have been told once and again that you tend to do with L&C as well - and you yourself have admitted to having seen very little of the series).

In Anne of Green Gables, Anne of Avonlea, and Anne of the Island, what adventures did Anne have? They were all interesting and fun to read about, but none of them were full of mystery and action-filled adventure. They were very much about a unique girl like Anne growing up and coming into her own, in a domestic little town called Avonlea. (Well, I suppose the last one was more about Redmond College.)

So I'm not sure what you were expecting to find in Anne's House of Dreams. This time it was about a young married couple in another small community. Miss Cornelia, Captain Jim and Leslie were all wonderful and loveable characters to me. Anne wasn't lonely there.

You say she seemed to go on many lonely walks. Did you miss the whole point of the first book in the series, Ann? Anne had a unique imagination that could keep her occupied for hours on her own, and she loved giving it that freedom. She also enjoyed nature and everything she met - every little rock and flower - were precious to her and were company she sometimes preferred over the company of people. I suppose from the way you got so many details wrong, I can assume it's been ages since you've read them, but I'm not really that forgiving when someone rats on my Anne. <g>

Finally, Leslie Moore's husband was a mean drunk before he left. He came back, having received a blow to the head, brain-damaged and reduced to the mental state of a child. Leslie would never have said so, but she preferred him this way - she was safe from him. She was terrified when Gilbert brought up the possibility of surgery to restore his health (but eventually consented to it). When Gilbert went ahead with the surgery, the patient woke up and identified himself as her husband's cousin, who was identical to him right down to the differently-coloured eyes (well, they're described as being similar enough, anyway, as adults, that the differences were attributed to whatever he had been through on his voyage - and Leslie hadn't known about the cousin's existance so couldn't have possibly concluded otherwise about his identity as Dick Moore). Her husband had been dead for 10 years. He left, of course, for his own life, because he didn't know Leslie.

The young man (Owen Ford) you are referring to her seeing discreetly was a lodger she had living with her, while her (incapacitated) "husband" was still around. They loved each other in secret and never revealed it to each other. He was also friendly with the rest of the characters, integrating himself to the community for the summer he spent there. I think it was down to Anne, in the end, to push them together after the whole husband/cousin episode was over, but even if I'm wrong about that detail, it doesn't matter - they became a couple only when it was clear Leslie was free.

As for Anne taking care of children and staying at home - as other have said, she was a product of her time. As well, she was fulfilled in her life and her relationship with Gilbert was the sort I'd like to have some day. Taking care of a household and six children was a full time job no less busy than being a teacher (probably busier, in fact).

I also resent the way you describe Diana's situation. You put down their physical appearance, first of all, unnecessarily and hurtfully - overweight people deserve credit and happiness no less than others. As well, Diana married at the expected age and she too, was in love with her husband as he was with her, and found happiness with him.

I wonder what you would have preferred for Anne. Your basic point is that kids kill a marriage - so should she not have had children (whatever that may have meant to her love life) and remained a teacher? Do you think that would have made her happier? I think, if so, that you should sit down and reread the books.

Actually, I recommend everyone does that. They're just that awesome.

Julie

Wonderful replies, Julie and Hasini. Personally, the Anne books that bored me were the ones when she was teaching at the private school and when she was going to college at Redmond, so the ones after she left Avonlea but before she married. "Anne's House of Dreams," the book with her young married life, is one of my favorites. I love the story of Leslie. Leslie was trapped in such a horrible marriage, first by an abused husband and then by a returned husband who was basically a small child. We clearly understand the dangers to Leslie's personal safety, life, and happiness when Gilbert tells her that he might be able to "fix" her husband's brain injury. And yet Leslie agrees to the surgery, because it's the right thing to do. And she's rewarded by the result. I always loved that story.

I think one of the reasons that people may consider Anne's stories a bit more boring when she gets older is that she's making fewer mistakes. Many of her childhood "adventures" are screw-ups, like when she dyes her hair, almost feeds everybody a sauce that a mouse died in, hits Gilbert over the head with the slate, almost drowns, or tries a new freckle-removal cream on her nose and is covered with feathers from pillows the day an important visitor arrives. As she becomes an adult, these mistakes become fewer and far between (I think the freckle cream/feathers was one of her last big ones?). I'm sure Anne was grateful to be having fewer tragedies and to be dipping into the "depths of despair" more rarely, even though her accidents were delights to read about.

Have any of you read the "Emily of New Moon" books? Emily isn't a chatterbox like Anne, but she has some delightful adventures of her own, and she loves to write just as much, perhaps even more than Anne does. There are some wonderful sort of mysteries in her books that I loved reading and even more love rereading and seeing how cleverly and subtly the clues are placed.

I think any story where kids are involved, the kids tend to take over. As some of my family have yet to learn, when you have kids, your life is no longer your own. You have to take the kids into consideration in everything you do. So of course the parents after kids won't be the same as before kids. They're not exactly boring, but their focus has shifted.

Now if only my in-laws could learn that lesson.

Hmmm I'm just jumping in because I'm sad to see how many people dislike second gen fics. I love to read about them when they are grown-up... not so much when they are babies though.

Perfect examples: Honesty (being written by Beth right now), and Irene Dutch's Firestorm series. If you guys haven't read those you should... it may change your mind on a nicely written second gen fic.

As for the Anne of Green Gable's stories... I for some reason never read those growing up. I just saw the mini series (which I loved)and didn't even know about the books till I was grown. I think however I'm going to have to read them soon.