Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Off Topic Questions About NYC

Can a very kind person who lives in or has lived in or is very familiar with New York City answer a few questions for me? I've only been there once and it was in the Times Square area, but the stuff I need to know involves living in the city and in Brooklyn. Any help is greatly appreciated!

1 - What neighborhood could you imagine a young, professional woman who worked in Manhattan living in? Safe, close to work, but not so expensive she'd have to be related to a Trump (she makes a decent salary but not that much!).

2 - How long would it take to get from Manhattan to Brooklyn? And this is not worrying about excessive traffic - just an average (1 hour? 10 minutes???)

3 - Does Brooklyn have areas segregated by nationality? So, for example, an Italian neighborhood, an Irish neighborhood, etc?

Thanks for any input!

Lynn

Hey Lynn,

Now that I'm an old married mom, I'll have to try and dig up those old, wonderful memories of living in NY during my youth (hmm I moved out in 2001..seems like forever ago I was young and fun!)

1. Well when I was an young chi chi type living in the Big Apple :rolleyes: the Upper West Side was the place for me. It was hip for young people and more affordable than the East Side. Nice neighborhoody feel and lots of shopping plus you're steps from Central Park!

2. Brooklyn?? Nah never been there, Manhattan was the place to be! j/k Actually it really depends on where you're coming from and where you're going. I didn't travel back and forth too often honestly, maybe someone else can help you more. I can say that taking the train is the best way to get around.

3. Brooklyn is like the rest of NY, lots of ethnic groups. I know that there is a Russian-Jewish area near Brighton Beach and that Bensonhurst and Bay Ridge are predominately Italian. Williamsburg is arty and Brooklyn Heights is pretty yuppie-ish.

HTH, I'm sure others can elaborate more!

~Liz

[i]Edited to add this link in case you wanted to read more: ]http://brooklyn.about.com/cs/neighborhoods/a/Neighborhoods.htm[/I]

Thanks, Liz! This is so helpful - really gives me a good place to start. I know next to nothing about NYC other than very general locations (i.e., Brooklyn is east of Manhattan, which is kind of the tip of the whole island thingy) so this gives me what I need. And that link is wonderful!! Gives me a great launching point. One quick question - can you give me the names of some streets/a major intersection in the neighborhood where you lived? I just want to be able to pinpoint it on mapquest.

Any more info from anyone else out there is still welcome, though. The more the better.

Lynn

Back in 1995, a good friend of mine lived near 86th and Amsterdam, which is in the Upper West Side. That's exactly the area that comes to my mind for what you are describing Lynn -- attractive, interesting, safe area. Nice enough that a couple of young, single, professional women would want to share an apartment there, but not so expensive that they couldn't afford it. (Especially since they were subletting a rent controlled apartment from a friend of a friend -- a fairly common practice in my understanding.)

Kathy

Traveling from Manhattan to Brooklyn:

When? Time of day matters HUGELY.

How? Subway? Driving? By taxi?

Also, where in Manhattan to where in Brooklyn?

As far as ethnic neighborhoods in Brooklyn, Boro Park , Crown Heights, and Flatbush are all in Brooklyn. While the residents of all three are primarily Orthodox Jews, they have very distinct flavors. (I can elaborate if you like. )

Hi Lynn,

I just now saw your query. I currently live in Brooklyn and work in Manhattan. I’ve lived in NYC for over 23 years now. I’ve lived on the Upper West Side, Upper East Side, Midtown, Lower East Side and finally Brooklyn. I work in Tribeca, which is on the Lower West Side, about 10 blocks North of the World Trade Center site.

My answer for #1 would change slightly according to 3 factors: what year you’re talking about, whether the woman has any roommates (and if so, how many) and where she works. If you’re talking about the woman working in midtown, the Upper West Side -- anywhere from 72nd Street to 110th Street between Central Park West and Riverside Drive is good. I lived on 81st St between Columbus Avenue and Amsterdam Avenue about a block from the American Museum of Natural History in a studio apartment; on 113th Street just off Amsterdam Avenue (across from the Cathedral of Saint John the Divine – I can still hear those bells ringing -- and just south of the Columbia University campus) in a 2 bedroom apartment; on 102nd Street between Broadway and West End Avenue in a 3 bedroom apartment that I shared with 4 others.

Nowadays, most of the young professionals I know have moved to Brooklyn because Manhattan has become ridiculously expensive. If you are aggressive, have time to search and are a bit lucky, you can find good deals in Manhattan, but most affordable housing in Manhattan is inconvenient to subways, etc. The young people I know in Manhattan now have either well-to-do relatives or were lucky to find a decent, affordable space (usually by knowing someone who knows someone). You can always have your character inherit a lease from an older relative.

I know several people on the Upper West Side, Upper East Side (from 72nd Street to 96th Street between York or First Avenue and Lexington Avenue – from Park to Fifth Avenues would generally be too expensive), the Chelsea area (West side from 14th Street to 23rd Street between Sixth Avenue and Tenth Avenue), the East Village (East side from Houston Street to 14th Street between Fourth Avenue and Avenue C) and the Lower East Side (bounded by Houston Street to the North, Canal Street and East Broadway to the South, Bowery to the West and Avenue C to the East).

The most exciting and fun Neighborhoods in Manhattan to live in (in terms of neighborhood character, places to eat, shop and hang-out, and nightlife) would probably be the West Village, Greenwich Village, the East Village, SoHo, Little Italy, the Upper West Side and the Upper East Side (mostly because of the Museums and Central Park).

The answer to # 2 can vary wildly. Brooklyn is huge. I live in Carroll Gardens about a mile and a half south of the Brooklyn Bridge near the East River. It takes me an average of between 30 to 45 minutes to get to work in Tribeca (but I have a fairly long walk to the subway). If I were going to midtown, it would add approximately 15 to 20 minutes to the commute. A taxi to my office would take me about 15 minutes in no traffic up to 45 minutes or more in bad traffic. Getting to midtown by car would be horrible in heavy traffic. I have a friend who lives in Brooklyn Heights and it takes her 15 to 30 minutes to get to midtown because she lives right by a subway stop that the express train stops at. Her subway stop is only one stop into Brooklyn. My subway station is five stops into Brooklyn. I have a friend who lives way out in Brooklyn, almost in Long Island, who gets to midtown in about an hour and 15 minutes by subway (express train). If you live along one of the commuter train lines like the Long Island Railroad or MetroNorth you can get to midtown within an hour from fairly far away.

Brooklyn and Queens have several neighborhoods that are predominantly one nationality or another. When I first moved to my apartment, the area was definitely an Italian neighborhood, but the yuppies have been buying out the old-timers. In addition to what Liz listed, Greenpoint has a large Polish community; Borough Park has a large Orthodox Jewish community; Cobble Hill near Atlantic Avenue has a large Middle Eastern community; and Bedford-Stuyvesant has a large African-American community.

Amy

Hi Lynn....Funny I should catch this. I don't usually read the OT folder. I'm fourth generation Brooklyn on one side and second on the other.

I'm in Brooklyn frequently. Amy's info about commute is right on...but be aware that she's talking mass transportation...not cab ride. If you want info on cars and routes from neighborhood x to neighborhood y for a "chase" scene or something, let me know.

Brooklyn "downtown", which includes Brooklyn Heights, Cobble Hill and some of Clinton Hill is the high-end brownstone end of Brooklyn. Upwardly mobile careerists rent/buy coops and condos, and Kennedy relations live in Brownstones. Many of these Brownstones have historical pedigrees based upon who lived there. The big coup is a view of the harbor with the Statue of Liberty. (Think Moonstruck).

Carroll Gardens is just south of there...very trendy, very multi-cultural, but all upscale.

Park Slope is south of there and slightly east....along the edge of Prospect Park, Brooklyn's main park, nature preserve etc. Again, this is very expensive living, and very charming turn-of-the-century brownstones and limestones.

Northeast of downtown (where the other bridges...Manhattan and Williamsburgh connect Brooklyn to Manhattan) there is Dumbo (down under the manhattan bridge overpass) where former factories have been turned into high end lofts for Yuppies...very funky.) And Williamsburgh, which is still a Jewish, Polish, African American ghetto type place--sort of run down. But up and coming as the next funky area VERY VERY FAST. (I say ghetto with love...I have roots in Williamsburgh and on the other side of its bridge on Manhattan's Lower East Side...so I see charm where others see decay.)

Moving EAST of downtown is Clinton Hill and Bedford Styvesant. Just south of there is Crown Heights. Here's where it gets fun.

Clinton Hill is home to lots of upscale black urban professsionals. Note that I use "black" and not African American. That's because there is a HUGE and upscale population of West Indians who keep their island culture a smidge distinct from the African American culture. Clinton Hill is more African American. Moving further east into Bedford Styvesant is an amazing gentrification by ALL ethnic groups to revitalize what was once a slum (Billy Joel: "I walked through Bedford Sty alone") It's positively beautiful now...and expensive. It is the "new" upscale black urban professional place to be.

Further East, Bushwick and on out...it becomes less affluent.

Now...Just North of Prospect Park is Crown Heights, where Hasidic Jews and West Indians live on top of one another. If there weren't the occasional racial incident, it would be a very funny place to be most of the time. These two groups cooexist far better than the press makes out. The Brooklyn Museum is also right in the middle of their area.

Note for logistics...in the middle of Brooklyn is an enormous cemetery called Greenlawn. If you don't know it's there and think you're on a through street, you get a rude awakening. But it's very very pretty.

South of Prospect Park is Sunset Park...fairly Asian but with a crossover of Italian from south in Bay Ridge and young urban everything from Carroll Gardens.

Jutting out into the harbor at the corner of Brooklyn (Think Saturday Night Fever and the Verrazano Bridge) is Bay Ridge. It's still hugely Italian. Big shopping streets. The pizza really *does* taste better there. Lots of apartment coops and condos; some fabulous old mansions (the kind with 13 rooms and a bridge view)

Just east of Bay Ridge is Dyker Heights. This is the hill where the "expensive" houses are. This is where the "families" live. (You know of what families I refer yes?) Overdone tile, too many statues in the front yard. You'd think it was a parody if it didn't cost $2,000,000. Everyone drives a Mercedes.

East of that (and south) is Middle class Bensonhurst Italian. North of that is Borough Park, which is middle class orthodox Jew (and Hassidic).

Oy...and I'm only through Western Brooklyn!!!! It's a big place.

Coney Island is the amusement park and minor league ballpark (Kingspan Park... home of the Cyclones) off the mainland to the south. You can see the famous "Cyclone" wooden rollercoaster. Lots of Italian catering halls nearby.

East of Ocean Parkway. (Parkways in Brooklyn are literal..they are divided by very wide medians containing grass, trees, benches and walking paths.) Life is very middle class. In the south, there is a mix of non-religious Jews, Italians and assorted caucasians....Sheepshead Bay, Kings Park etc.; as you move north on Flatbush Avenue (which disects Brooklyn) the population is mostly West Indian. Not only have they revitalized the entire Flatbush area, but they've build very strong communities around the church etc. For fiction purposes, they would be identified by speaking accented English of a Jamaican variety...Ya mon. As opposed to hip hop accents--that would be African American ---second or third generation from the south. Everyone else would just sound like "New Yawk".

East of Flabush goes into lower middle class Canarsie and East New York...towards the Queens border. This was suburbia until after WWII and the lack of interesting architecture shows. While Western Brooklyn has lots of 100 year old structures that are well cared for, eastern Brooklyn has a less attractive mass-produced feel to it.

Eastern Brooklyn also has lots of high rises and subsidized housing...which is unlike downtown Brooklyn, which is all 3 stories (except the landmark "Clocktower" building--the Williamsburgh Bank building)

The area in the middle...where the tip of Bushwick meets East New York (Pennsylvania Avenue) has an interesting parkway that winds through a nature preserve and two large cemeteries connecting Brooklyn to Queens (it ends at Queens Boulevard). It used to be called the "Interborough" and now the "Jackie Robinson Parkway" (named for the player who integrated major league baseball). There's a running gag that, unless you use it, you have no idea of where it goes.

I have no idea if this is at all useful, but can you tell that I LOVE Brooklyn USA?

Sherry

P.S. If you were stretching it, you could call Windsor Terrace "Irish". But, in truth, the Irish Immigration of the 19th century really brought them to the eastern middle of Manhatttan (what is now Alphabet City and Styvesant/Peter Cooper Village) and to Throgs Neck in The Bronx. It is the Italians who made their mark on southern Brooklyn and the Eastern Europeans who flavor Williamsburg (note no "h"). And now, the Western Indians who have revitalized so many areas in Brooklyn.

Oh, how could I forget the Russians in Brighton Beach! Whether Jews or Catholics...south of Bensonhurst and just East of Coney Island (sort of) is an enormous Russian population. They came to the US to escape the Soviets and have continued to build and bring their families here. They are all over the south...from Brighton Beach to Sheepshead Bay to just west of Flatbush.

Well, thanks to the last two posts, I now want to go back to NYC. <G> I haven't been there in several years, but I always loved it, and you're making me nostalgic for another visit.

This adds nothing to the conversation (sorry, Lynn ) but I just wanted to thank Amy and Sherry for taking the time to type up all that info. I enjoyed reading it and I didn't even ask the original question!

Kathy

Oh, man, can I just tell you that LnC fans are the greatest people ever!! You guys have been so much help, I can't even express my thanks.

Here's the set-up for my story - I'll tell you about my characters and what seems like a reasonable situation for them and you guys can tell me if you agree. BTW, I have to confess that this is for an original fiction....

My heroine is a native New Yorker who works in the publishing industry. She met her husband in college (out of state) and they decided to live in the city for a while before starting a family. So - for this couple, is it reasonable that they might have bought a condo/apartment on the Upper West Side or perhaps they rent something? She would have a fairly easy commute to her office, which if I use the addresses of some big name real publishers seems to be in the general area of Mid Manhattan.

My hero's family is from Brooklyn, and they are second generation Italians. Very steeped in their backgrounds so would gravitate towards primarily Italian neighborhoods. From the research I've done, it looks as if the Bensonhurst area has a big Italian flavor. Is this a good place where he might have grown up as part of a large family?

Also, my hero's father, brother, and uncle (as well as a cousin or two) were all FDNY firefighters. It's a big family tradition (one that my hero bucked!) I don't want to use the location or information from a real Brooklyn unit because this is fiction, but I've been researching Brooklyn stations just to get an idea.

Like I said, thanks so much you guys for all of this information. Being from Chicago, I know so much about the city and its various neighborhoods and the little details only those who live here could know. It is so cool hearing stuff like that about NYC. And if every anyone needs info on Chicago, let me know.

Lynn

Bensonhurst sounds fine. They'd most likely live in a multi-family house that, by 2005 rates actually goes for 775K (!). But they've been sitting on it for a generation and a half and it was paid for as a wedding gift for cash. <g>. I'm sure everyone will go home for Sunday dinner. One of the sons, invariably moved into the renter's apartment of the house once the grandmother died...until then she occupied her own apartment.<g>

My only concern is that the publishing industry pays very poorly. She would travel to the Rockefeller Center area for work or Times Square. (The classic publishing houses are all off of 5th or 6th). This means that she would work in an expensive part of town. IOW, the hero had best make a lot of money or it'll be questionable how they can afford to live in Manhattan at all.
You could make up a backstory for them getting into a rent-controlled apartment...but the cost of living would still get to them. I suppose they might have purchased a coop with wedding money or bought a wreck and renovated it themselves...but it would need a credible explanation for how they were able to get their hands on it.

I'm only being a nitpicker about this because I abhor fiction that puts the heroine in a palatial estate when she makes almost no money.

May I suggest that you go to realty sites on the internet and check out the prices of rentals and purchases and build your home from those? Perhaps it would help clarify.

One possibility is that they could live WAY up on the upper west side towards the George Washington Bridge (Washington Heights). This area is now becoming popular and it would be affordable for young marrieds. But it would mean an hour commute via subway on a bad day and an hour via bus on any day. It would take two hours to get to Bensonhurst for Sunday dinner. (Which mama calls "macaroni" NOT "pasta"....


Sherry

Thanks, Sherry, for steering me away from a huge pitfall!!

Okay, I need to work this out. The heroine is actually divorced, so I might have her ex-husband have a fairly lucrative career that might have allowed them to buy something when they were married, which after the divorce she kept. Do you think it would be believable that she could afford a mortgage payment on an editor's salary? Or maybe I will go with something rent controlled (I always think of Monica and Rachel's apartment on "Friends" that was rent controlled - the only way those two could have afforded such a cool place ).

And glad to hear that Bensonhurst is okay. I read in some research something about it being home to some mafia types, and I certainly don't want my hero to have any mafia connotations. In fact, I'm nervous about him even being an Italian guy from Brooklyn because I don't want to put forth any stupid stereotypes. He's definitely not in the mafia!! I love the idea of big family dinners on Sundays. In fact...I'm getting an idea for the perfect scene where the heroine has to meet this huge Italian family...

I can't tell you guys how helpful this is!

Lynn

[side note] Hasidim are Orthodox Jews -- a subset thereof, basically. [/side note]

This is an interesting opportunity for me to address the whole "mafia" misconception. If your hero grew up in Bensonhurst and he has contacts there, he knows mob people, grew up with them, and, other than knowing that their family is "connected", doesn't treat them any differently than any other neighbor. Most mob members are very small time. If he knows someone who grew up to become a member of "Murder Inc." and he is an honest man, he doesn't go out of his way to socialize with them any more, but, other than that, he doesn't acknowledge it one way or the other. Other than the very famous kingpins, you wouldn't know by a family that it has connections....it's just likely that all the relations are successful in business because people want to curry favor with the powerful family. It's odd...but it hasn't changed in forever.

As for the apartment, depending on your timeframe, they could have bought it PRIOR to the latest real estate boom and acknowledge that she'd never be able to afford it now...but there are only a few years left on the 15 year mortgage...or something like that. In the mid '90s, there was a glut of housing and all prices were depressed. The latest boom didn't start until interest rates came way down. It has long been acknowledged that the "rent control" argument didn't even save the Friends apartment from being a total farce. Not only is it impossible that they afford it, but there's NO WAY the main room could have a loft layout with the bedrooms off to the side. So just discount that. Jerry Seinfeld's apartment was about right for a west side unit...1BR, galley kitchenette, no DR, about 650 sq feet. It would cost about $2500-3000.

I have a girlfriend who has an amazing railroad apartment in a brownstone in the west 80s. It appears large because everything is off one long hall that runs front to back (as Brownstones tend to do....they are deep and narrow). She pays $4000 a month. She affords it by renting the house she and her ex husband used to own in the suburbs for $3500 and splitting that with him. So it costs her $1750 from the house plus $2225 from her income. She's a software salesperson and makes about $150,000 a year. You may think that's alot of money, but she's in the highest tax bracket for federal and NY State is a high income tax state (about 11%). So she only sees 50% of her income. Figure 75,000 less rent = $48,000. -401K = 35,000; - phone, gas, electric = 31,000; - insurance = 30,000 - commute or garage for car plus car insurance = 24,000; -food (groceries and restaurants) = 12,000; - clothes and sundries = 0.

I know these sound like wacky numbers, but it really is possible to be poor in NYC on 150K per year. The problem is that EVERYTHING is a little more expensive than everywhere else. Not just housing. Even if she went to suburbia (NJ) to shop for clothing and sundries, it would be a small boon.

Sherry (We can keep this online if others are interested, or Lynn and I can continue this offline...whatever makes the group happy)

Keep it online! I haven't had time to read much of it yet, but what I've seen so far looks fascinating and incredibly useful for anyone intending to visit NYC. As a foreign tourist, I've always been a bit nervous of NYC, not knowing where the 'safe' and 'no-go' areas are - or even where the really interesting places that don't get mentioned in guidebooks are. I don't have plans to go there in the near future (I've visited a couple of times already), but who knows? And if I do go again, I'm more likely to want to stray outside the usual tourist areas, which is when this stuff will be very handy to know.

Yvonne

Sadly, NYC is far from the only place where one can be barely making ends meet on a six-figure salary. Shall we discuss housing prices in the Los Angeles area?

Let's not, it makes me depressed.

Yvonne,

If you come to visit, I think you'll be needing a guide....

Sherry

Great discussion, keep it online. My son's in-laws are 2nd generation Italian and are a huge family that has basically moved out to Long Island because of the cost of New York. Yes, it's a one hour commute by train each way, but it's way better than trying to drive, especially in the current weather. My son lives in Great Neck, which is sort of the Orange County (referring to L.A.) of New York. That is, affluent suburbs. Large family gatherings for special occasions (baby-showers, christenings) are held in Italian restaurants or Country Clubs (a family member must be a club member, but it's a large family). Some family members have summer places in Sag Harbor (but they don't think of themselves as rich!).
Some have made sizable incomes by buying homes or apartments, renovating and reselling. So they are living upmarket if they've been at it 25 years or so.
If any of that kind of stuff helps, let me know.

Artemis

Oh, yes, if it's okay with everyone else, let's do keep this online so everyone can contribute.

Sherry - that's fascinating about the mafia. I think I'm terribly guilty of getting all my ideas about it from movies like Goodfellas and The Godfather and shows like the Sopranos! Not that I imagine thuggish looking guys lurking on the corners with baseball bats threatening to rough you up if you don't cough up the dough. Heck, that's what a lot of people image about Chicago because of Al Capone (or they imagine there are gangs roaming the streets shooting at anyone who drives past them). But it makes sense what you're saying - that it's not an obvious thing for the most part. And that the majority of people have nothing at all to do with it even from the standpoint of knowing someone. My hero is very far from it, so if I make any reference, maybe just some teasing about stereotypes.

I think housing in any major metropolitan area is getting to the point of troublesome. When my husband and I lived in downtown Chicago (actually, in one of the northern neighborhoods called Lincoln Park), we paid close to $1,000 for a tiny one bedroom (I mean, so small we could vacuum the entire flat without having to unplug the vacuum cleaner from one outlet ) and that was in the early-mid 90s. I have no doubt that apartment goes easily for $2,000 or more now. Which includes absolutely no parking except a good fight for a space at the curb.

Even in the suburbs we are having problems with affordable housing. People who don't already own simply can't break into the market because the smallest houses which would be affordable for first timers are being snatched up by builders. No kidding that a builder will buy a tiny house for $375,000, tear the house down to build something near $1 million. On my block alone - a block that contains 16 houses total counting both sides of the street - we have four that are in some stage of tear-down or construction. That's 25%! On one block!! It's like a war zone with all of the bulldozers and cement mixers and mud. Not to mention the lovely Port-a-Potties decorating the parkway!

There is something to be said about small town living, where you can buy a rambling old house with tons of character for a fraction of the price. Of course, you have to enjoy small town living which has its own quirks.

Lynn