Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Off Topic A (somewhat random) geographical pet peeve

There's something that's bothered me in a very slight but persistent way over the years. For lack of anything better to do, and because I'm interested in the response, I've decided to post it here.

My thesis is, quite simply, this:

Europe is not a real continent.

To prove this, I will be using information from this site. Its information is very basic, but my thesis hardly requires more than the bare facts.

A continent is a major landmass. It has a whole and distinct shape. Looking at this map of the world, one can pick out six such shapes.



North and South America are large, distinct shapes connected only by a narrow isthmus (and, with the Panama Canal, they're not even technically connected anymore). Similarly, Africa is a distinct shape connected to Asia by an even narrower isthmus (which has also been cut by a canal). Australia, while smaller than the others, is obviously a discrete entity. (It's fairly large and far enough away that you can't claim it's attached to anything else.) Antarctica is even more distinct.

That leaves one more shape. Eurasia.



This distinct and complete landmass has a total area of approximately 21,049,000 square miles, or 54,517,000 square kilometers. The peninsula known as Europe, which is made distinct only by the Ural Mountains, comprises just over 18% of that area.

Its total area is approximately equal to that of the United States. (Europe is 9,938,000 Sq. Km and, according to the CIA World Factbook , the US is 9,631,418 Sq Km.) As far as I know, no one ever claimed that the US (which comprises nearly 40% of North America) was a continent.

While it is true that Europe has had a disproportionate geopolitical significance over the course of recorded history, that fact alone should not grant it special status in what is, in reality, a purely geographical determination.

Europe is, quite clearly, no more a continent than Florida is an island.

Thoughts?

Paul

I agree with you here, Paul. I'm not exactly sure, historically, why the demarcation was made at the Urals, effectively cutting Russia into two vastly unequal pieces.

This is interesting, Paul. I did many times wonder where exactly Europe starts and where Asia starts, but I never had to think about it too much.

My pet peeve in this case is that people think Russia is in Europe. No, sorry, it's in Asia (well, mostly, anyway)! <g>

And while we're on this - Israel counts as part of the Europian Union, but some people (including my parents), think it's georgraphically in Africa. Looking at a map now, Israel is just before the cut off - it's in Europe.

Julie

Israel participates in sports events like the former Euroleague (dunno what it's called now), the Championship of European Basketball Teams. But, technically, it is in Asia.

I have the impression that Asia was considered a separate continent from the ancient years already. Maybe it was because of the limited knowledge the Greeks had about geography - there was sea between their land and Asia, so they saw it as a separate continent. (Don't forget that the names 'Europe' and 'Asia' are Greek)

Just a thought,
AnnaBtG.

Hmmm... maybe you're right.

/me steps off soapbox in shame

Julie

Yep, you're right Paul. And this is the reason:
.
Geography is interpreted by human beings. As to North and South America, I think they are still connected. The Panama Canal is not a wide ditch between the Pacific and the Carribean. On the Pacific side, it is 3 sets of 2 side by side locks, each 103 feet wide, a lake in the center and then 2 sets of 2 side by side locks. You can easily walk across the locks if you are on foot and there are many bridges.

Artemis

True. I think it's because part of it is in Europe, and that's the part we hear about the most. Also, the culture seems to be more European than Asian.

Interesting argument, Paul. As a matter of fact, when I was taught the continents in primary school, I was taught that there were six including Antarctica; Europe, Asia, Africa, Australia (including New Zealand and other surrounding islands), Antarctica and America. North and South America were not counted separately, since - as you and Artemis point out - they are connected. The Panama Canal is, of course, a man-made waterway, just as the Suez Canal is, which reminds us that the Americas were once connected completely by dry land, even if it was by a very narrow strip.

The same teacher who taught me at that point also said that in some interpretations there is a continent called Eurasia; in other words, Europe and Asia shouldn't be considered separate. I never heard that argument again until today, so I don't know how widely the view is held, but it does make perfect sense to me, as does the view that America is one continent.

Oh, and Julie, Israel is not a member of the European Union. The EU is a political entity, not a geographic one, and there are currently 25 member countries, from across Europe - as of 2004, well into Eastern Europe. The member states and candidate states are shown here. It's true that Israel participates in the Eurovision Song Contest (which has never made any sense to me; why don't Jordan or the Lebanon or Egypt participate in that case?


Wendy

Well, this thread got me thinking...

Like Wendy, I have hazy recollections of having been taught that there were six continents... and I've always struggled to remember which are which, and why. I know also that I've variously come across references to both Europe and Asia (separately) and Eurasia (as a single unit).

My next thought was to think about the continents in relation to the continental plates, so looked up their distribution to see if there was any overlap. The answer, as the diagram on this site show, is that, yes, there is some... but it is by no means perfect. In fact, it's pretty obvious that there is no good reason in terms its constituent plates for Europe being seen as a separate continent to Asia.

So... I then 'asked Jeeves', and found The Straight Dope , and I have to say I found it pretty enlightening. At the end of the day, there will be arguments as about Eurasia versus Europe and Asia, but, given the historical context, reasons for their having been separated in the past seem pretty understandable.

Basically, the argument goes something like this:
going back to ancient times, people's knowledge of the world was far less developed. Europe, Asia and Africa were perceived by travellers, explorers and traders as being significantly different areas, mostly on the basis of the kinds of people who were encountered there. (Interestingly, the borders of where the continental divide was seen to occur have obviously changed over the millenia; apparently Egypt used to be seen as part of Asia. Oh, and China etc (Asia-proper, so to speak) really didn't factor into the equation at all.)

I'm sure I've butchered the argument in the retelling; I'd recommend that you go to take a look at the original.

Incidentally, I laughed at the part that said "geography in years past was never the exact science we know today" because the first thing any geography undergraduate has to wrestle with is the age-old question, "what is geography?" Yes, branches of it are scientific, but it can also be studied as an art. (I've studied it as both... and will be everlastingly confused as a result ) The point is, geography can about anything which has some kind of spatial connection... including the way people construct mental maps, their perceptions of space and the world they live in... and, in this case, our attitudes to the continents.

My conclusion: Europe and Asia will remain separate continents just so long as people continue to say they are and believe them to be so. And if you think that Eurasia makes more sense as a single continent, then that is perfectly right and reasonable, too.

A perfect geographical quandary, Paul. Thank you for sharing.

Chris

Interesting question.

I guess, because I think of Europe as a political entity these days, I can't think of Eurasia as one continent any more. But the lack of real separation between Europe and Asia certainly makes it harder to define what Europe is.

As far as I recall, though, and even if I've heard of the term Eurasia before (mostly to define borderline countries like Russia), I was taught that Europe and Asia were two different continents, Europe being separated from Asia by the Urals, the Ural River, the Caspian Sea and the Caucasian Mountains, and at the South by the Bosphorus and Gibraltar.

I know that the borders of Europe are mostly political: the fact that we chose the Urals as the border is mostly because of the maps written in the 18th century. But geology tends to point out that Europe and Asia are part of one big lump of earth, and so a few geographers, such as Humboldt, have considered it as a part of Asia.

But like I said, my teachers tended to make a difference between Europe and Asia as two continents. I was also taught, interestingly enough, that America was one big continent with two parts (but one continent anyway).

Actually I was taught that apart from the poles, there were five continents: Africa, Oceania, Asia, Europe and America.

Kaethel

I'm just impressed that all these people can remember what they were taught in primary school. Personally, I haven't the faintest clue what my primary school teacher told me about continents.

Logically, though, I'm with Paul. Europe isn't really a continent, it's a political construction.

Yvonne

I was tought that there were 7, hmm interesting topic. I never really thought much about it before. though I must admit that Eurasia makes more sense then seperating Europe and Asia, besides someone whos half Europian and haalf Asian would be called Eurasin

then again what do I know, always sucked at Geography

Though Europe is always refered to as "the old continent" -As opposed to "the new world" (Aka America, north or south)- I'm with you on this, Astra... And i'm not.

What I've been taught at school seconds what Kaethel said: five major continents: Oceania, Asia, America, Africa and Europe. At that time, the teacher explained that the birth of continents was based on what we called "La tectonique des plaques" and "la dérive des continents"... or the drifting of major Earth plates, thus continents. Continental plates "float" on the Earthmagma :


And that got me wondering. As you can see, there's no Europe plate, nor Asian one. But only an Eurasian plate. I mean on a geophysic side.

400 millions years ago, there were three continents that came closer to only form a mega one :the Pangée.
Litterally, "whole earth", but correct me if I'm wrong Anna . There was a single sea masse called "Panthalatta" ("whole sea"). The Pangée then divided itself into continents.

I truly believe that the forming of continents is closely related to Oceans's one. I mean, even now, some oceans are closing, others are forming. Just like continents are moving from one another. And this site credits that. Sorry I don't have time for a whole translation but basically, it states that:

or : "a continental plate is composed of a continent and its continental plateau. This latest being covered by seas or oceans bordering the continent (...) continental plates getting closer or drifting from one another is linked to oceanic plates formation process."

OR "there's no link between the name of the continental plate and the continent -above water visible part- itself.

Which means that "a continental plate is made of granit and sedimentary rocks. (...)."

aka "there's collision when two continental plates get in contact. Which is the case between Europe and Asia."

So, if you ponder all this, Europe is a continent separated from Asia by the Urals Mountains and the Caspian sea on its eastern side.

According to Wikipedia\'s site , it's even "a cultural continent, a geographical subcontinent forming the westernmost part of the Eurasian supercontinent."

Oh, and this has nothing to do with it but, when I left University, an ocean was beginning to form between Africa and Middle east (where the actual Red Sea is). It's gonna take thousands and thousands of years to form, but that means the African and Arabian plates are already drifting apart. I remember that 'cause our Geophysics teacher looked like he'd found the Graal when explaining us about it.

Now, some geographs even propose to unify the Europe, Asia and Africa continents, naming it "Africa-Eurasia" .

... just some thoughts.

Carole I didn't wan't to get geopolitical, but maybe because all three mentionned bound Israel but are considered part of the Arab world ?

or perhaps because, according to an israeli colleague of mine: "Israel is the only european country in Asia. It participates in every Europe-related contest. Sports, culture, everything."

You missed my point, Cyad: Israel is not in Europe either geographically or politically. The countries I mentioned are all near or border neighbours of Israel's geographically. That's why I said it never made sense to me that Israel participates in some European events. It's not that I have any objection - I'd be very happy to see the Eurovision Song Contnst become more of an international thing, for example. I was simply making the point that geographically it makes no sense for Israel to be involved in European events. That it clearly makes sense from other perspectives is a different point, and one I'm not getting into.


Wendy

Geographically, Wendy, you're quite right; I think the point Carole was going for is that Israel is closer, culturally, to Europe than most of her neighbors. That said, I don't think of Israel as being in Europe, and I see approximately zero chance of Israel joining the EU, for many different reasons.

PJ

Oh dear. I almost did my masters in a physical geography feild. You are giving me nightmares. LOL. (I purged myself of my 153 maps...Clean Sweep (on TLC) would be fantastic in helping me get away from my Univeristy days)

Me - Eurasia.

Isreal - not Europe. Some say Asia starts half way through Turkey or the mountains. I'm prob. setting myself up for error here. I am very tired. So I shall go back to my hole now.

Good luck with your work Hatman. I miss that stuff so!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!