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#201989 01/08/05 02:29 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,644
Pulitzer
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Pulitzer
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,644
Hey, guys... I've run across an article that I find fascinating, which argues that "Americanism" is a religion (as is anti-Americanism), the successor to Puritanism and deeply influenced by Judaism. It's got lots of historical references that I hadn't run across before.

I'm aware that there are some of you who will likely react violently to some of these ideas frown I do not intend to offend anyone; actually, I'd be delighted with a civil debate on the topic, and any contrary evidence anyone can come up with. Yes, it's a very hot topic, with potential for flaming, but I think we've done very well here discussing similar hot topics in the past. So you could say I'm walking by faith here wink

Anyway, for those few who read this far... the article is here . There's also a blog site that will be collecting opinions on the topic. There's already a spirited comments thread, and I'll quote one of the comments: There's a name for this type of stuff in Yiddish, Joe, and it ain't "controversial." It's dreck. <g>

Anyway, like I said, I find it fascinating, and I thought perhaps some of you might, too.

PJ


"You told me you weren't like other men," she said, shaking her head at him when the storm of laughter had passed.
He grinned at her - a goofy, Clark Kent kind of a grin. "I have a gift for understatement."
"You can say that again," she told him.
"I have a...."
"Oh, shut up."

--Stardust, Caroline K
#201990 01/08/05 01:33 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 151
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Hack from Nowheresville
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Good grief. I'm not anti-American, not by a long shot, but there are many things in the essay that I cannot agree with. I don't even know where to begin. I cannot comment on events that were important in American history, I'm only responding to the writer's comments on USA's role in World history. My perspectives and views of World History will be biased because of the region of the world that I come from. Another disclaimer: all the historical facts that I put here is off the top of my head. If I remembered wrongly, or got my facts wrong, I welcome correction.

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In the 20th century, you would have needed enormous determination to turn your back on the isolationism and anti-militarism that comes naturally to Americans and butt into World War I
Enormous determination? Is this the version of WWI that is taught to the Americans? We were taught that the Americans practised "Isolationism" contributed very little to WWI. In fact, WWI began in 1914, USA only entered WWI in 1917. WWI ended in 1918, so USA's contributions were really minimal. In fact, when I think of WWI right now, only the European countries come to mind.

USA's big debut onto the world stage was not even a good start. I'm talking about the League of Nations and President Wilson's 14 points. We were taught in school that though President Wilson had a good idea, the Americans were not happy about losing American soldiers in what was essentially a war in Europe, and therefore the Congress refused to agree to let USA join the League of Nations. This very action essentially signed the death sentence to the viability of the League of Nations. All major world powers were spent after WWI. USA was really the only world power at that stage which were strong and rich enough to make an influence and they chose to retreat back into isolationism.

WWII began in 1939, but USA did not contribute to the Allies' war efforts (I don't consider selling arms to he Allies contribution, but transaction). The Americans were still practising Isolationism, and after France fell to the Germans, UK stood alone against the Axis powers for 9 months. It was after the bombing of Pearl Harbor in 1941, that the Americans entered WWII officially. When discussing this event in class, we agreed that bombing Pearl Harbor was Japan's biggest mistake. Without this event, USA may never have entered WWII at all.

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The final climacteric was the cold war—its start and its finish. Franklin D. Roosevelt had taken the United States into World War II, but stubbornly refused to accept Churchill’s diagnosis of Stalin as a ruthless imperialist. His successor, Harry Truman, followed FDR’s path—at first. But in 1946 Truman changed course dramatically.
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Truman’s announcement was in the spirit of classical Americanism. It recognized America’s message and duty to all mankind
I don't remember what Roosevelt thought of Josef Stalin, but this statement agaisnt FRD is extremely unfair. First, he died even before WWII ended; to be specific, he died even before the Germans surrendered. Harry Truman was in charge for the last four months. Therefore, at the time of FDR's death, USSR and Stalin was still an ally. WWII ended in 1945, and Sir Churchill didn't make his iron curtain speech until 1946. His speech marked the onset of the Cold War. Of course Truman changed course drastically in 1946, in 1946, USSR was no longer an ally, but that was not the case in 1945. I'm not sure what point the writer was trying to make. Was he trying to make a contrast between FDR and Truman because Truman was more religious than FDR? Anyway, his argument here is flawed.

To say that anti-Americanism is anti-Christianity and anti-Semitism is just wrong. And I feel that I should point out that the Muslims protected the Jews for centuries when the Jews were presecuted by the Christians. The Muslims didn't begin the practice of anti-Semitism; the Christians did. A classic literary work as my point: Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice. The flash point between the Muslims and the Jews today is the formation of Israel. Radical Muslims around the world may have used religion to unify themselves against Israel, but I feel I should point out that the root of the dispute is territorial, not religion. If it were religion, the Muslims would have prosecuted the Jews together with the Christians all those years ago. I'm happy that with the formation of Israel, Jews around the world finally have a nation to call their own. I'm just saddened that what started as a territorial dispute has snowballed into something so much bigger.

I just reread my message, and perhaps there's a pro-UK and an anti-America slant in my account of World History as I was taught in school. I'm not trying to belittle USA's involvement; both WWs could have turned out very differently if USA was not involved. But I feel that it's fair to put USA's place in History and her actions in perspective. At least, one should not glorify any country's involvement in something as major as a war. I'm a believer in the statement that "there are no permanant enemies, only permament self-interest". I don't know who said it first, I learnt this quote in Chinese. Besides, I was taught that American involvement in WWI was really limited to arms and supplies. Though they were instrumental in Allied victory for WWII, there was no altruism involved; USA retaliated because of Pearl Harbor, unlike UK, which was involved right from the beginning, when she chose to defend Poland in 1939. Seems to me that the United Kingdom, not the United States of America, better deserved the title of "Defender of Freedom and Democracy", at least, during the 1940s.

*braces myself for an onslaught*

twins
metwin1

#201991 01/08/05 03:47 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,454
Pulitzer
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Good grief, indeed! huh


Wendy smile


Just a fly-by! *waves*
#201992 01/08/05 04:11 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,133
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Top Banana
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Oh. My. Gosh. (okay, breathe, Laura.) This was . . . I don't even know what to say. As an American, I am embarassed. Non-Americans, please realize that there are Americans who do not believe this. At all. This is offensive on so many different levels. Right now, I am so angry, I can't even write anything coherent.

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The end of the cold war was presided over by Ronald Reagan
What about Gorbachav? If he wasn't ready to end the cold war, the cold war would have never ended.

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Some agreed with Ronald Reagan and some disagreed. Some approved of him and some disapproved. Yet, to a remarkable extent, those who hated him are the ones who hate America—
I believe the fact that I hate Ronald Reagan is the definition of my being American -- I *can* hate him *because* I have the freedom to express my hatred! Just like people can hate Clinton. I love him as much as others love Reagan. It doesn't make you unAmerican to hate Clinton. It doesn't make me unAmerican to hate Reagan and Bush.

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What is wrong with pluralism? What is wrong with diversity? So long as we escape extremism on any side, why can't we disagree with each other without having to be considered disloyal, or 'anti-American' as opposed to anti- a particular political approach?
Thank you, Wendy. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.

And, metwin1, I agree with you completely.

- Laura


Laura "The Yellow Dart" U. (Alicia U. on the archive)

"A hero is an ordinary individual who finds the strength to persevere and endure in spite of overwhelming obstacles." -- Christopher Reeve

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