Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Off Topic Matrix Shout Out

This is mostly for Savior but also to anyone else who is a Matrix fan - anyone going to see Revolutions when it releases this Wednesday?

I'm probably not going to get to go see it until Thanksgiving weekend when my parents can watch my kids, and I'm torn between wanting to keep the whole thing a surprise and being totally spoiled because I'm dying to know what happens!

So far the reviews I've read on Rotten Tomatoes haven't been too promising, but I'm hoping that these earliest reporters are just hard-core critics and don't speak for the majority.

Anyway, if you are going to see it, let me know what you think overall - good, bad, ugly, excellent.

Lynn

I'm going to see it on friday afternoon (AUS time). just got the ticket. Now I'm super excited!!!!! And I'll draw some more Matrix Fanart after that Here are some of my fanart: http://ychi4100.deviantart.com/gallery/

BTW those reviews suck! Don't pay any attention to them ! Some ppl don't like Reloaded coz they're too dumb to understand it. Matrix is not a movie for dummies, it's so multilayered and complicated. You've got to see it a few more times to fully appreciate it. Everything in that movie is a work of Art. Haven't see anything come close to it. I'm sure I'll love Revolution.

Well, I can't wait to see it, the 'Reloaded' last scene certainly got me wonder and wild guess. But certainly not on wednesday...it doesn't fit in my agenda

Maybe sometime around X-Mas time...if it's still playing.

Anyway, enjoy Revolution, Savior!

Carole (/ trying to influence Savior by subtles subliminal messages: >>spoilers<< >>spoilers<< >>spoilers<< >>spoilers<< >>spoilers<< >>spoilers<< >>spoilers<< >>spoilers<< >>spoilers<&lt ...)

PS: what d'you mean 'not so subtles'? And what's this evil laughter all about?

Well, you don't have to be dumb of course to not like a particular movie. Tastes differ. And, as they wisely say, it would be a darn boring world if they didn't.

That said, my old friend once gave me a sound piece of advice on critics. "Never listen to critics," she said. "Unless they agree with you they don't know what the heck they're talking about."

It seemed like a good philosophy to adopt then and hasn't failed me since.

I only watched Reloaded very recently. I wasn't expecting to like it at all, because of the reviews I'd read. But I enjoyed it very much.

Some of the criticisms did match my own view - I'm not a huge martial arts fight fan, so I found the fight scenes very boring and way too long and ended up fast forwarding through most of them. They were original and fresh in the first movie, but by now, I feel, you've seen one of these wire/slo mo fights you've seen them all. But if you've a big kung fu fan then I expect you'd enjoy them hugely.

And I did think the lovemaking/cave festival scene was also way too long and self-indulgent - bringing nothing to the movie and seemingly totally pointless.

That aside, it was more character driven than I'd expected from what I'd previously read. And since that is what interests me about any TV show or movie rather than flashy SFX, I thought Reloaded was a lot of fun.

My husband now, a huge Matrix fan, loathed it. He's pretty smart though.

I am looking forward to Revolutions.

LabRat

LabRat, I have to agree with you on the fight scene part but I don't like the Matrix movies just for the fighting or special effect(not that I don't enjoy them), I like the movie mainly because of the story, the characters (I love Trinity so damen much, but I also love other characters such as Neo, Niobe, Morpheus, etc., even the baddies are lovely too) and the philosophy.

"And I did think the lovemaking/cave festival scene was also way too long and self-indulgent - bringing nothing to the movie and seemingly totally pointless. "

Well, I totally disagree with you on this though. The love making/cave scene is probably my favourite part of the movie. It shows how much Neo and Trinity love each other.... and explains why Neo chose to save Trinity instead of saving zion when he was in the architect's room. It's also the best love scene I've ever seen, so taseful and beautiful. I can almost feel their energy " human vs machines". Zion orgy and loving making is exactly what makes them "Human". A "protest" against the liveless Machines. Oh well, I suck at writing, really don't know how to explain this. Hope you get my point.

Oh boy, the Matrix!

Could talk on this subject forever, but swear that I won't.

And you're wrong, Labby! And I say that with affection, of course. The fight scenes are like ballet. So graceful and so...er...cool! Yeah, that's the word I'm looking for. No, wait,...super cool!

And the lovemaking/cave stuff. My favorite. For all the excellent reasons already stated. Here is their humanity. This makes them real, flesh and breathing, and all the other good, sweaty stuff.

Lastly, I love that Neo is Superman. The weight of the world on his shoulders. And that Trinity is his Lois. Without her he'd be a god. When they are met by all those people when they arrive in Zion, and she says, "They need you," and he says "But I need you," that's Lois and Clark in a nutshell. She keeps him human and real. A person.

And he flies! Which is...cool!

Ok, deep breath, but I don't know when I'll see the 3rd. Would like to dump kiddies and run stand in line, but I'm sure that breaks some kind of law.

CC

I guess I'm a hybrid of the opinions above.

I totally agree with LabRat:
And to add to that, I also didn't really see the point in all of the fights. Apparently, Neo and the people (or machines) that he is fighting are immortal, so really, what's the point of fighting at all. I, too, fast forward past the fight scenes as a matter of course. Seemed to me that they were just a chance to show off special effects that have already been done and IMHO were actually not done that well. I say this with some authority in that I formerly worked with CGI animators, one of which is credited for work on Reloaded and Revolutions and who has stated his thoughts on the quality of the CGI.

That being said, I diverge from Labby's opinion in that I did like the Zion Rage/Love scene. Not that it added much to the story for me, but it kept the whole thing from being very dark, black, bleak. I enjoyed the contrast of the fire and heat in Zion to the void of the "real" world, eg the cotton clothing and earth tones of Zion versus the sterile blacks and cold metals of the Matrix. The whole thing made humans very real and organic to me.

And to be really honest, I thought Keanu probably did some of his best "acting" in his love scene with Trinity. His face while making love showed such poingancy it nearly broke my heart. I like these two characters as love interests and their story is one I'm looking to see resolved.

Overall, my favorite part of Reloaded was the whole puzzle presented by the Architect and the brain twister of whether or not Neo is the solution or simply another part of the problem. And exactly where is he now? Is Zion really a matrix within the Matrix? All questions I want to have answered. My expectations for Revolutions are mainly that - I want some serious answers to these questions!

And Labby - I agree about the critis <g>. I always tell my hubby when he uses bad reviews as a reason not to see a particular movie that they call them "critics" for a reason. They get paid to be negative as a profession. If not, they'd be called something else.

CC - Astute comparison with Superman. I think it all ties back to the whole Messiah archetype thingy, both Neo and Superman the "saviours" of their respective worlds.

Let's meet back here after we've all seen Revolutions to discuss and ruminate!

Lynn

Okay, I've revised my opinion. (Get used to it, it's a habit; I'm too old to change it now. ).

Reading your posts on the lovemaking/cave festival scene, I realise that it's not actually the lovemaking part of it that I found boring. In fact, you made me realise that I probably agree with your opinions on that part. It was kind of sweet. <G> Nope, I've decided it's the interspersing the lovemaking with all that rock festival hippy dancing that I found boring. And actually, if it had been half the length it was I wouldn't have minded that either. I think, on reflection, my main problem with that scene was just how long it went on for. Half the length would have been fine for me.

In fact that's my main complaint with all of the scenes that didn't really interest me - like the fight scenes. They just went on too long. I think they need a really strict editor. But then they are the signature piece of the movies and what the die-hard Matrix fan would be expecting in a sequel, so I don't blame them at all for spending so much time on them. They didn't interest me at all, left me cold, but I do expect I'm firmly in the minority on that one and the producers know it.

While I'm here though - I'd be interested in what you think of another moment where I found myself wondering what was the point of its inclusion as it didn't seem to me to bring anything to the story or tell us anything new about the characters. And that's the kiss in the ladies room. Anyone care to change my mind? <g>

And Savior, I'd agree that what attracts me to a movie and makes it enjoyable for me is the characters. But that's always been the case for me. I despair of the amount of attention SFX get in the media and the seeming belief from the movie industry most times that what most SF fans want out of a movie are flashy SFX, when what we really want is a darn good plot and some interesting characters who interact intriguingly. That's where I think The Matrix scored big time over a lot of other movies around.

LabRat (who really liked the Twins. <G>)

Labby,

My best stab at the kiss in the ladies room: it's about Love!

According to the Architect that is the one thing that makes Neo different from any of the others who have threatened the Matrix construct. Love is not a ethereal idea for Neo. It is very real for him, in the person of Trinity.

So, that hussy in the bathroom wants a little smooch from our hero. No biggie, right? She's a beautiful woman, she's digital, so why not?

But he hesitates and at first doesn't do it well. And I think perhaps this was a test to see what his feelings were, since later he'll have to choose if Trinity lives or dies.

(I have a really bad feeling about that for part 3- hope I'm wrong)

Also, love how Trinity pulls a gun and just wants to shoot her instead. Kind of test for her, too, as she just has to stand there.

You know- I could have that completely wrong. All of the above. But that's how it shakes out for me.

CC- who is such a sci-fi geek, she really tries to rein it in, so as to not frighten off people at parties.

And my husband has set a time limit for how long I can talk 'Matrix' with him. He'll give me 15 minutes, and after that he'd like to discuss things like dinner, how the day went, what the kids are doing... No one is happier about this thread than he is.

I think that's my problem with it though, CC. We already know Neo's feelings for Trinity, that he loves her, that she's important to him. That's been demonstrated time and again in the movie long before we get to this point. So setting up this particular scene just to show us this seemed pointless to me. We knew already. <g>. Didn't have to have it reiterated and in such a heavy-handed and I think I'd even go so far as to say completely improbable manner. (Whatshername's motives for insisting on it seemed highly dubious to me. )

Or...something belatedly occurs to me now, having typed the above ...are you saying it was the Matrix testing Neo's commitment? Now, never thought of that. That actually makes some kind of sense, you know. Hmmmmmmmmmmm...you know, yeah, that kind of works for me, actually.

Aren't the characters within the Matrix supposed to funtion independantly though? I had the idea that they could only be directly controlled by the Matrix if they were taken over and became an agent. But I'll admit I'm not that clued in to the fine detail of how the system all works, so could be entirely wrong there. I didn't think though that the Matrix could make a character within the system act in a particular way unless they were taken over directly. Is that wrong?


LabRat (who assures CC that she is now going to stop playing here and is even as she types dashing over to that story file to have some fun there instead... )

Sigh and alas, I'm working right now (movie opened 5 minutes ago worldwide) and tonight I have class, so I'm missing out on the opening day rush. I'm going tomorrow, though.

Revolution's presentation to the movie press critics was Monday, on the Champs-Elysees, 20.30 Paris time...which is rare (and turns the film into the most well-garded secret ever). Usually the press gets to see the movies at least a month (usually two) before opening day.

The movie opening was 30 minutes ago (15h), but the movie itself started 10 minutes ago...on second thought (and after double checking the agenda mentionned before), I might as well be patient (okay, screw that ) and wait for the DVD *sigh*.

Carole

Well, we're going to see it very soon, possibly today... depending on when we can get our super-duper babysitter lined up (hi, Annie! <g> )

Labby, a lot of the things that bored you the first time through bored me, too, though I do think the fights are cool. Unnecessary and irrelevant, perhaps, but very cool <g> But on the second viewing, everything seemed to flow a lot better. Especially the cave orgy scene -- it didn't seem nearly as long the second time through, and there are some character insights in there. Faced with a choice between all of Zion and Trinity, Neo goes for Trinity. He'd rather be loved than worshipped.

And it's not, I think, that Neo and Agent Smith are immortal. They're exceedingly difficult to kill, but sooner or later one of them's gonna have to destroy the other. Smith was just giving it the old college try

I've heard disturbing rumors about the plot to this last one -- and it's still possible for them to tick me off by making none of it mean anything... but it'll be fun to find out.

PJ

OK, my take on the whole Kiss in the Men's Room scene:

I see Persephone as some kind of an emotional junkie. She gets kind of a high on the different emotions that humans are able to express. And there is something so special and unique about a "first true passionate kiss" from someone that you love/loves you. I remember that feeling from back in the day when I was dating. That special excitement and anticipation, then the tingling thrill when finally you do kiss.

And of all the feelings that I've personally experienced, to me that is the one that is most fleeting. Having been married for 10 years (and still very much "in love" with my husband <g>) I still miss that "first time" stuff. Over time and with familiarity it simply just wears off. As a side note - I think that is why we all seem to gravitate towards love stories such as Lois and Clark's - they seem to eternally retain that first-time spark, and through them, we get to feel it over and over again regardless of our personal status as married/single/in-love etc.

So, BOT, I was viewing this whole thing as Persephone having lost that excitement and wanting desperately to feel it once again. She gets the uber-high from it and wants a fix.

But I do see a very good argument for the test-by-the-Matrix theory. I think that the "characters" or "programs" inside the Matrix do act independently, but they are programmed to act a certain way. Isn't that the whole problem with the rogue programs - programs who aren't "acting" the way that they are supposed to? Perhaps Persephone's job is to test Neo, and this is her individual way of testing him? As for Trinity's reaction, I saw that as the directors' way of showing how much Trinity and Neo are supposed to love each other - so much that Trinity is supremely jealous by Persephone's request and wants to kill her - territorial stuff.

And that as a segue - as LabRat noted:
On this I agree with LabRat's assessment of the Zion Orgy Scene. Although I didn't mind so much the giant dance rave (I really love the drums and percussion music <g>), I think they would have done better to spend more time developing the Neo/Trinity relationship. As it is, I can believe they love each other, but I wish they would have spent more time "showing" me this love rather than just announcing it as fact. Not that I wanted an extended love-making scene just maybe some more tenderness or reasons that these two are soul-mates willing to die for each other. But, I do realize that I'm not the target audience for these movies and such lovey-dovey stuff might be a big turnoff for the males ages 15-30 crowd.

The one scene that I didn't like/didn't understand was the whole restaurant thing with the Marovingian. When he's just going on and on about choice and cause and effect. I suppose if I really listened and paid attention, I might pull some meaning out of it. But mostly, I thought it was just a good excuse for them to show a CGI Matrix-induced orgasm! (Can I say that on these boards ? If not, Labby can you edit this out?)

Pam -
Awesome statement! I think you've completely summed up the entire movie, and very eloquently, I might add !

CC – I think you and I are kindred spirits! We both have kids. We both love LnC. And we’re both scifi geeks. Well, actually, I’m a movie scifi geek. I don’t really read scifi. But holy cow, between the Matrix and Lord of the Rings trilogies, I’m about to explode. Just to give you an idea how much I loved LotR – I’d never read the books when I was a kid. After seeing TTT, I read all three books in four days!! Couldn’t wait til this December for ROTK to see how it all ended <g>.

I'm totally loving this discussion. Such intelligent perspectives with a female twist. A lot of the stuff I read on other websites/forums gets so deep into the subtext that it gets tedious. I like taking a look at the emotional aspects of this movie.

Lynn

PS -
Does this mean LabRat's writing or editing?! I'm hoping the former!!!! When you need to take a five minute breather, come on back here and keep chatting!
L.

Promised self was no way coming back here to talk Matrix again today. Just once a day, early a.m. before kiddies are awake, otherwise this is not healthy, right?

Soooooo, I'm not really here to comment on Matrix type things. I'm just reading them.

Lynn, you and I are sisters under the skin, that's for sure. Can I tell you that -under torture- I would never, ever confess to the sheer number of 'Star Wars' books I've read? I have them delivered in a plain brown wrapper now. To an assumed name. <g>

And no, alas, Labby is not writing! How could she? Everytime she looks up, I'm dropping bits of story on her, swearing it's the last. Labby is BRing tirelessly, and how do I show my appreciation?

I come here and disagree with her on the boards.

CC

ok, nothing about the Matrix in that entire thing, so, I stayed true to my vow.

But what's everybody's take on 'the Oracle?'

Well, I have no interest whatsoever in The Matrix. You'd have to drug me and put me in chains to drag me along to that kind of film!


Wendy

Woo-hoo! Just pre-bought tickets -- my husband Kelley & I will be at the 7:45pm show tonight... Of course, I usually had to drive two hours to get there... but what the heck.

Oh, and I've read LotR more times than I could count; I think I first read them when I was ten. I remember vividly the moment I finished "The Two Towers" -- we were visiting relatives and I hadn't brought "Return of the King" with me! The suspense nearly killed me. I had to buy new copies a few years ago, since mine were falling apart...

Um, anyway... I guess I can report spoilers tomorrow, if people really want to see them. And assuming I've got anything coherent to say I'd suggest we start a new thread that says **SPOILERS** in the topic line, just so people can avoid 'em if they want to.

PJ

Like CC I'm not really here. Still got the Archive upload to do, which is now like several hours late, so shouldn't even be here reading. Except I'm not here, so I have no need to feel guilty about it. Right?

Anyway, I'll be back at some point to respond to some excellent points! Enjoying this.

But did just have to quickly comment on this:

Well...eventually if not tirelessly. And well overdue too. :rolleyes:



LabRat (who at least finally got CC's story back to her today, so has one less thing she needs to fret over being late with. <g>)

Whoo. 4pm this afternoon. Now, as long as I stay aawy from the coworkers who have seen it...

As far as Persephone and the kiss goes, Persephone has been described (by the actress) as an emotional vampire. She doesn't have any feelings herself, so must "feed" off others to feel anything. Hence the reason why she wanted to feel Neo's love for Trinity... she's never felt that kind of love before.

http://speculativevision.com/forum/messages/13/2632.html (Regarding Matrix Reloaded)

I was thinking about this today... The climax of the movie was basically whether Neo would choose "humanity" or Trinity. During the Zion rave, he clearly chose Trinity. I think maybe this scene was a similar choice -- but this time, Neo betrays Trinity in favor of "humanity." I think the writers were showing how tricky this sort of choice is, and that it's an open question as to which door Neo will choose.

Or not Just a theory...

PJ