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I have an idea for a story that I thought I would toss out to y'all. If anyone wants to run with it, they are welcome to do so. (Although for all I know, there may already be many stories out there like this.) It's for a deathfic. I don't even want to *read* that type of story, much less write one; nevertheless, I think this could be developed into a powerful story by someone with the talent and interest...

Perhaps five or ten years after their marriage, while Lois is still quite young, she is diagnosed with cancer. Clark is guilt-ridden because he is fully convinced that he caused it because of all the times he used his X-Ray or heat vision on her.

Has this story line been done before? if it hasn't been done to death (so to speak) and anyone wishes to use it, go for it!

cheers,
Lynn

Wow, that's a good idea! Especially because Clark could never be *sure* that he didn't cause it... Loads of angst potential right there!

Alas, I'm working on some other stuff right now. But this idea might percolate...

no angst potential for Lois though - she gets to be dead.

c.

...Unless of course there is a happy ending in that Clark discovers a new use for his eyes -- do it yourself radiation therapy. ;-) (I guess that it then wouldn't be considered deathfic, technically, but it could still be plenty angst-filled anyway.)

cheers,
Lynn

Very interesting idea. I definitely would read such a story. But as far as writing it, I'm going to let someone else travel through that particular minefield.

Well, this would be another Lois deathfic. I would hate it, sorry.

Ann

I find it interesting as well as very depressing that you said this, Lynn:

Quite a few people on these boards seem to reason like that. A deathfic is bad, but a Lois deathfic is okay.

Bobbart has just finished a fic where Jon and Martha were missing for a long time, and it seemed very probable that they were dead. They were brought back, and most people were very happy. Now, if we consider your story premise, it could easily have been turned into a story where Clark caused the death of his parents. Clark has spent more time with his parents than with Lois, and in the beginning, when he didn't know how to control his powers, he may indeed have zapped his parents with X-rays that may have harmed them. So it is more likely that Jonathan or Martha would get cancer as a result of Clark's powers. Yet such a story premise does not exist. And why not? Because it is unthinkable that Clark would cause his parents' death. Such a thing would be gruesome, and it can't be tolerated. But the idea of Clark unwittingly causing Lois's death is tragically beautiful. Why is it awful for a man to accidentally cause the death of parents, but tragically beautiful for him to cause the death of his wife?

My answer is harsh. The way I see it, it is because our society says that young women are not so interesting in themselves, and their lives aren't worth that much. But their deaths are beautiful. They leave such beautiful corpses. And they were only women anyway. Therefore people may cry over their deaths, but they don't need to feel truly devastated by the loss of these women's lives, because their lives weren't that valuable anyway.



Ophelia. What is most beautiful, her life or her death? Don't tell me you don't know the answer. Not only is her death exquisitely beautiful, but we may cry over it and feel cleansed and relieved afterwards.

Men, however, are valuable. The "defining narrative" of the western civilisation is the story of a man who dies and rises from the death to live again - I'm talking about Jesus, of course. Our civilisation doesn't have a similar narrative about a woman. When a woman dies, she should remain dead.

TOGOM, one of the most influential episodes of the LnC TV series, shows how Clark "died" and became alive again. Lois cried for him as if she had been Mary Magdalene crying over Jesus. But like Jesus, Clark "became alive again".

There have been so many re-writes of TOGOM on these boards. It would seem natural that some of them should tell us that Clark didn't return, that he stayed dead. (Perhaps he was shot with a kryptonite bullet?) I think Tank may have written such a story, otherwise such a premise is a no-no. Clark mustn't die, because he is a man. And therefore his life is more valuable than his death.

It makes me really sorry to see Lois deathfics written for their story potential, when Clark deathfics are so rarely written for their story potential. My explanation for this is that I think people respond to this deeper narrative in our western civilization which I have referred to, the one that says that a (young) woman's death is tragically beautiful, but a man's death is just devastating and unbearable.

It isn't over until the fat lady sings.

Ann

Umm, Ann, actually my reasoning (or lack thereof) was a lot simpler than that...Lois is more of a main character than Clark's parents are. Therefore, she was the first one to come to my mind when I thought of the story idea. To me the salient point of my idea isn't who dies; it is Clark's angst. And since, as I stated before, I do NOT like deathfics myself, I did not wish to put any additional thought into coming up with other alternatives.

As far as I am concerned, Clark's parents dying would work, too, although given their age, it would probably be a less powerful story. That is why I had emphasized in my story idea that Lois was still *young* when she got the cancer -- partly to make Clark's angst more credible, but partly because it is typically seen as more tragic when a person dies who is "cut off in their prime" than when someone dies who already has lived a full and fulfilling life. Gender has nothing to do with it for me.

- Lynn

Nor, I suspect, does it for most of the other authors on the mbs.

LabRat

Speak for yourself, Labrat.

The patterns in L & C deathfic do involve gender issues when you probe beneath the surface.

Perhaps it's because in North America there are still significant indicators that women still are not perceived as equal to men in mainstream and pop culture. Whether it's the percentage of women in top jobs in the film industry or in our political institutions, or the percantage of women who are victims of violence at the hands of their spouses or ... I could continue the list, unfortunately.

Story lines more often have as protagonist a male who is angsting over a dead spouse. Heck even in popular TV series, it more often a continuing female character who is killed off, not a male. ( e.g.NCIS, the Mentalist)

I'm guessing that in Scotland, where Labrat lives, these patterns must not exist. We in North Amercia aren't there yet.

Now of course I know that things are better than they were 100 years ago - heck we have the right to vote now.

Pop culture helps shape us, whether we like it or not. For many girls, Lois Lane was an icon - someone who stood for heroic values, had a career otuside the home - she was independent at a time when the truly independent woman was scarce. So when she is killed her death becomes symbolic too.

The deathfic pattern in L & C fic is that it is usually Lois who is killed off. And also that it's Clark's angst that is deemed to be the interesting pain to poke at and explore.

Lois does not count - she's expendable. She gets to be dead, as I said above. Woman as plot device, her dead body a prop to allow us to see Clark suffer.

Now some might suggest that it's more likely that Lois would die, given Clark's physical invulnerability. But given his Kryptonite weakness that's not the case. He would haave been dead on at least 2 occasions in the show except for human intervention (Sam Lane, and also that reactor). Also , consider the repeated exposures he has to K and you have to wonder if some serious damage might not have been done to his system. (Yvonne Connell explored this possibility in a really good fic some years ago)

So we have a pattern in L & C deathfic - Lois is the corpse most often. What accounts for that? -is it a subconscious feeling that the female character doesn't count for as much? She gets sacrificed on the altar designed to show us how truly, deeply, maddly he can suffer.

c.

I'm with Lynn.

Gender doesn't matter.

Lois is easier to kill.

Clark CAN be killed but Lois is easier.

Well, thanks for the spoiler, Carol. As a regular watcher of The Mentalist, which is behind, of course, the US/Canadian schedule, I'm a little disappointed to have advance warning of what seems to be a significant development.

As for the topic under discussion - my opinion is very much based on the responses given by many of the authors who post here to previous complaints by Ann on the subject. Very few appear to accept her - or your - version of their motivations for writing deathfic.

YMMV, of course. But I don't believe that there is any evidence that gender plays a terribly significant role in why such fanfic is written and nothing you nor Ann has said on the subject in the past or now has yet persuaded me otherwise.

LabRat

Clearly there's not unanamity. Also, I'm not sure that posts are the only measure to use. Labrat, you and I will always disagree on how many mbs members see gender as one of the issues involved in L & C deathfic.

Sorry about the spoiler - but it's not my fault. Well, maybe it is - my sloppy writing. I was referring to Simon's wife who is dead as part of the premise of the show - to set his character so to speak. Same thing with Gibbs in NCIS. We know their hearts are pure because they have suffered. Although NCIS - I don't think this can be a spoiler given it happened a few seasons back - did kill Kate.

From a technical point of view, yes.

But not from an emotional point of view - if the writer cares about the character she's no easier to kill than Clark is.

c.

I don't think Kate is a good example. The actress wanted out of her contract and said she wanted it to be in a way that made it matter rather than just having her character move or something.

Well, since I was talking about from a technical standpoint, Lois is easier to kill.

I have written exactly one deathfic. Lois died. Why? Because both the story and a bunch of people [FoLCs mostly as it happened] were pissing me off so she stepped in front of a truck and voila - end of fic.

Can't do that with Clark. Had nothing to do with her being female but with her being vulnerable.

I don't think anyone is going to change Carol Malo/Ann's minds and I doubt they're going to convince anyone who doesn't already agree with them...

Carol

First, I have to mention the enduring popularity of TOGOM fics, where Lois's angst is explored in great depth.

Second, I think the whole issue could be side-stepped if the story was about Lois being ill and contemplating death, Clark freaking out about his possible responsibility, etc, but with a cure being found at the end. (the trick is to make it look hopeless, let them work through their issues, make some sort of peace, then pull a surprise out of nowhere. Wendy did it in 24 Hours (Lois in danger) and For the Greater Good (Clark in danger) and so have many others.)

I must admit, though -- I'm a traditionalist, in some ways. I believe in some loose gender roles -- one of which is that the stronger person (usually the man, in a couple) has a responsibility to protect the weaker one. Adding in Superman magnifies that. So when the wife/girlfriend dies (or has anything awful happen), the husband/boyfriend has that extra layer of guilt. It was his *job* to keep her safe, and he failed. Reversing the genders just doesn't resonate the same way. Mind you, a talented writer could definitely make it work, and parents have a similar responsibility toward their children.

I also think it remotely possible that most of the FOLCs, being female, are more interested in a single, grieving male than a single, grieving female. Plus, for me, that second one might hit a little *too* close to home, thinking that something like that is (statistically) likely to happen to me, sooner or later. Did I mention my mom's been widowed twice? And men have a shorter life expectancy, and my husband's 7 years older than me, so...

Anyway, in this particular scenario, it would be difficult to switch genders, since only one of them has been using x-ray vision on the other (well, mostly ).

PJ

I'm not sure that proves anything other than that 'death' was still perceived as the only important change for the female character. There are lots of other ways of having the character leave in a way that 'mattered' and so her example still plays to the stereotype of the expendable female.

This is not to argue that death was not a possibibility, but instead that Kate's example fits into the overall pattern.

Pam, it's been argued before that TOGOM fics are the equivalent of Clark deathfics - but since we all know that Clark was not killed from the beginning, it's not a deathfic, but just an angst fic, an opportunity for a bit of a wallow.

But you're quite right that angst fics where either Lois or Clark worries about the death of the other are quite common. Wendy's fic (and that example is one of her best fics imo) is only one. It certainly was present in Jenni's excellent 'The Forgotten' and many others.

But in those fics there's a respect for both characters. One is not expendable in order to make a point about the other. Not sure that's a particularly untraditional point of view I've just stated so much as a humane one.

Either Lois or Clark grieving hits too close to home for me. It's a shattering time and I'm not sure it's something that one ever really stops doing.

But I do accept that there are other opinions out there, as there are on most topics.

I also think that this is an importnat topic and worth discussing.

c.

Even when I tell myself to stay out of it, I get drawn into almost every deathfic thread. Stupid of me.

I imagine that there are a number of reasons, when an author chooses to write a deathfic, as to why they're doing so and who they choose to kill. I personally do not ascribe to Ann's theory that if Lois is the one who dies, it's because "a woman's death is tragically beautiful, as opposed to a man's death being devastating and unbearable."

Carol wrote:
There are deathfics that I have felt to be incredibly well-written, cathartic to read, and thought-provoking. In none of these did I ever think of the one who died - either Clark or Lois - to be "expendable". For me, just because there are more stories that have Lois be dead than Clark, does not automatically mean that those authors - nor the readers who enjoy the story - think of Lois as any less worthy than Clark.

What if the tide suddenly shifted? What if, for perhaps no other reason than authors' muses at the moment, suddenly there was a spate of stories written with Clark being killed off in various ways? Would people start complaining that Clark was considered more "expendable"?

That word seems to come up every time Lois is killed in a story. I don't expect any of my comments to change anyone's mind, but let me go on record that I do not agree that this fandom thinks of Lois as more "expendable" than Clark. Since L&C is my main interest, I have no opinion as to the sentiments of the Superman universe as a whole.

And as to this comment of Ann's
From what I've read - either here or in any other thread - no one has ever said this. With the particular premise that Lynn speculated about, Clark would be the cause of Lois' cancer because of his powers, so it couldn't possibly be the other way around.

Kathy

No, it doesn't "automatically" mean that (not sure how you're using 'automatically here) - but it doesn't mean that they don't subconsciously feel that she is less worthy either.

Each of us brings our individuality and experience to how we perceive any pattern and the reasons for it. As well, what we write and how we read is a reflection of how we've been conditioned - the values and attitudes we each hold.

It is a pattern that's out there: there are more Lois death fics. It's reasonable to ask *why* the pattern exists, as it is with any pattern.


c.

Originally posted by Lynn S. M.:

I understand that.

The way I see it, Lois is used as a means to explore Clark's angst. If I may make a horribly crude and admittedly unfair comparison, imagine a scientist who takes a child's hamster and subjects the hamster to torture to explore the kid's reaction. In order to explore the full emotional repertoire of the child, the scientist kills the child's small pet.

Of course, this also means that the hamster is expendable. Under the circumstances, its death is far more interesting than its life. Or rather, the loss of its life is not such a big deal, but its death is valuable because it produces fascinating results - namely, the kid's grief.

In the "Superman as a Christ figure" thread that you started, Lynn, Marcus Rowland pointed out that several comic book heroes have died and returned from the dead. There is Superman, of course, but also Batman and Captain America. And let's not forget Mr. Spock.



Spock is dying. His death produces a lot of interesting grief in Captain Kirk. Ah, but Spock returned. His life was too valuable to be squandered just so that we could see Captain Kirk's tears.

Another fictional character who returned after we had been told that he was dead was Bobby Ewing in Dallas.

My point is that all the characters who died and then returned were male. Or am I wrong about that? Does anyone know of a female fictional character who died and then returned to her own living body so that she could go on living on the Earth as herself as before?

I'm not suggesting that there are a whole lot of fics on these boards where Lois dies. I also realize that extremely few people here would openly admit or even think to themselves that they enjoy Lois deathfics because they like seeing a woman die.

I am saying, however, that a pattern exists, that it is much larger than the small world of LnC, and that it teaches us that a male hero is always interesting for his life, but that leading female character may reach the pinnacle of her importance to the world when she dies. Because her death may provoke an interesting reaction in the leading male character, who is probably the real protagonist of the story anyway. Or else, if she herself is the protagonist, her death may be so tragically beautiful in itself.



Beautiful.



Beautiful.



Beautiful.



Beautiful.

Ann

This has developed into a fascinating discussion. I had had no idea that I would be starting a maelstrom with my story idea!

Your analogy is flawed in one very serious respect: If a scientist were to kill a real child's pet, it would take place in *real life*. the pet would be dead. Period. The child would have to live the rest of their life knowing that the pet had been killed. Such an act would be highly unethical.

By killing Lois, or any other character, in fanfic, we are dealing with fiction. No actual people are dying. Frankly, when it comes to fiction, especially something like fanfic, ANY character is expendable, and should be "expended" as necessary to further the story. This is not at all a callous statement, since:
1) We are dealing with FICTION (Yes, I am repeating myself here; I think this point is worth repeating)
2) The fictional universe "resets itself" when you put down that piece of fiction. Unless someone chooses to write a sequel, the characters will remain "alive and well" in other fanfic.

I won't argue with you there; but I will say that in each instance (and especially that of Mr. Spock), I would rather have had the character, once dead, remain dead. To me, the returns have always seemed to cheapen the powerful death scenes.

An interesting question. I'll have to think about that one. The two that leap to mind (Elvira Gulch and Phoenix) are not exactly positive examples...

- Lynn