Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related Translation Effects

Suppose you have a fic set somewhere far away--say, an alien planet, or colony thereof, or even the distant Earth country of madeupistan.

All the dialogue is in this "language", right? So, usually, one would just type it all as English and let the reader assume it's really Ancient Bambalonian or what-have-you. But then, suppose an actual English Speaker travels to Madeupis---Mars. If the POV is that of a non-English speaker, how would you depict each speaker's language?

And then what if someone curses? Original language with accompanying translation? ("FLH*Y DEHGF!" He said in my language, and I wondered how he knew that about my mother) or just played straight ("Your Mother Rasies Hamsters In Berlin!" He said in my language, and I wondered how he knew that about my mother.)

Thoughts?

/waves hand wildly/

I personally think that you should have all of the um, madeupistan characters thoughts and spoken words in English. Even if he's really speaking madeupistanian. and then the Earthling or whoever who really speaks English is speaking gibberish at best [but it isn't usually written out for us - just Madeupistan character thinks 'she yelled in whatever langauge she spoke. I waited for her to finish before saying, 'are you done now' in madeupistanian.]

*EXCEPT* when she mutters this particular curse. Because let's face it. If we read:

She yelled at him in madeupistanian. "Your mother raises hamsters!"

It loses something.

If she yells at him in madeupistanian and says "Bloctonon harstein!" and he reacts to that [and we've been told in the A/N or other text that this is a Madeupistanian curse] it carries more weight.

IMO

But you already knew I thought that.

Examples:

Jane yelled at him. "Your mother raises hamsters in Berlin." John glared at her.

or

Jane yelled at him. "Bloctonon harstein!" John glared at her.

Second works better for me .

Carol

As a non-native speaker, I would assume that the english speaking Alien makes grammar mistakes.

In German its possible to put the words in almost every order you'd like to have. It may result in sounding a bit complicated, but it would remain right.

So you could say: The dog bites the postman.
but also: The postman bites the dog
without actually changing the fact that it were the dog's teeth in the postman's leg.

Another great source for mistakes are *false friends*.
The german word "Gift" means "poison" in English
"bekommen" means "to get", not "to become"

In this case, how would you say: 'The postman really did bite the dog'?

I think that second sentence would come out 'The postman was bitten by the dog.' Even in German.

Yes, I remember taking German in high school. My Berliner teacher said I hailed from Bavaria.

Since you did have German, you might remember that German nouns (determiners and adjectives, too) show their case (eg nominative, genitive, dative and accusative). Thus, the case-marking would make it very clear which one is the subject and which one the object of the biting. So, bakasi's translation of the German original is not quite accurate because it is missing the case-marking (which English doesn't really have):

Der Hund biss den Postboten.
The dog (nominative) bit the postman (accusative).

Den Postboten biss der Hund.
The postman (accusative) bit the dog (nominative).

If the postman would be the one doing the biting, the second sentence would look like this in German:
Der Postbote biss den Hund.
The postman (nominative) bit the dog (accusative).
See the slight difference? For a German, this is enough to know whose teeth ended up in whose leg.

So, back to Queenie's question: Foreign languages.

I think you should be aware of important cultural differences. Take New Krypton, for example. People there don't show their emotions, so it's quite likely they do not know more than one word for several different emotions. For example, they might have only one verb meaning "love", "respect", "like", "appreciate" and "value" (someone). On the other hand, they might have about a dozen different terms for duty.

Another difference you might want to play on would be their stiff formality.

About curses: Not that I think the people from NK would know many of them (maybe from some ancient writings?), I think one of the worst a creative Kryptonian could come up with is something like "This person has her emotions doing her thinking."

But, like Carol, I'd prefer the 'original speech' and only a hint at the real meaning. Let the reader figure things out for himself - he might like his interpretation better.

WHEE!

Someone agrees with me!

Carol

Making up gibberish... Good point. Up till now, I had them describe the gibberish instead of *hearing* it. But once I do a Nor or something...

Michael

Ok, good point about being left to the reader's imagination, but what concerns me is that I've already designated gibberish as the stand in for English. So, for example:

"Hi, Lois!" said Nor. "How are you?"

"Ayam Fain," said Lois.

"I'm afraid I no longer speak English," said Nor. "Did you just call me handsome?"

"Yeran Ugliyimbesill," Lois replied.

"Splendid! And how would you like to join me for dinner?"

"Estoo Bongaboo," said Lois, and Nor winced at the crude reference to his mother's eating habits.


Well? Does it work? If not, what are some other thoughts?

Does it work? It didn't work for me the first time I read it because I felt as if Lois has suddenly stopped speaking English rather than feeling that I was reading what a Kryptonian speaker might hear. Given the responses, I wasn't sure if Nor was ignoring her, which Lex used to do--even though he knew perfectly well what the person was saying--or if her English gibberish was accidentally sounding like a lot of Kryptonian responses.

THEN, I went back and re-read your gibberish and realized you had done exactly what my first suggestion was going to be: Yeran Ugliyimbesill = You're an ugly imbecile. So, if you'll mention what you're doing in your author's note, it will help some of us visual readers who let our eyes identify the gibberish rather than actually sounding it out and hearing it in our heads. I would also suggest a glossary at the end of the piece since I still can't figure out what Estoo Bongaboo means.

One last point: in your first exchange, Lois answers Nor in English as if she understands his question in Kryptonian. Rather than saying, "I'm fine," when he asks how she is, it would make more sense for her to be demanding to know what the h*ll is going on. After all, if she can understand him well enough to respond appropriately, then she should be able to speak at least pigeon-Kryptonian.

True, but this was just an example to demonstrate what would happen if I put English/Gibberish and Kryptonian/Gibberish in the same conversation. This is what I've been arguing with my beta about. She feels that a curse or insult would have more punch or impact if delivered in native tongue, ie, Kryptonian/Gibberish, whereas I fear it will not work along side the English/Gibberish.

Do you see my problem??

Uhm, yeah. Besides, eating habits aren't half as fun as mating habits. You might want to consider that.

/waves/ I'm the beta.

Most of what she's got so far just says 'Nor rolled his eyes at Lois' English gibberish' rather than having it spelled out. It is spelled out in a couple places but mostly just mentions that she's talking but he doesn't understand her.

I think the way Queenie wrote it up there 'Estoo Bongaboo' [or whatever] was Lois speaking in Kryptonian - the curse whatever it was.

I think if mostly whatever Lois says isn't written out for us to sound out, then the Kryptonian curse would have more punch in Kryptonian.

So:
In a few places [like the you're an imbecile in that one originally], I think putting the gibberish in would be a good thing, but not necessary in many. And the way I'm seeing Queenie go with this [though it's possible she won't], Lois would say the 'Estoo Bongaboo' curse in Kryptonian pretty regularly because she knows it ticks Nor off so it would become pretty recognizable after a couple times.

Just my .02 . But Queenie knows that .

Carol

Me votes with Carol. That last example made a lot of sense. When you make the non-native language English it makes more sense if you put the true English off-screen. Also, if the curse is repeated frequently, the reader will remember it to be a curse.


Elisabeth

I dont know if it applies to alien languages, but sometimes we do have in fanfic stories situations like this.

When Clark takes Lois to other countries and they have to speak the language of the place, usually Clark speaks it, leaving Lois to puzzlement. I often like the idea because if i dont know the language as well, I get just as frustrated as she does.

I would suggest something obvious though:

Clark reached for his wallet and asked the Arab taxi driver, "Bikam?"

The driver checked his taximeter and replied, "hamstashar gineh."

Clark fished a fifty egyptian pound bill and handed it to the driver. "Shokran." He said, leaving the car.


It's just an idea though. I think u can pretty much understand what was the conversation about without any English being spoken.

MDL.

I see now what the argument is about. I agree that the curse should be in Kryptonian, but I think it would be funnier if it was like the English gibberish that was written earlier:

"Yer--yer pahkutlent," said Lois, "pahkutlentin thuhpahkutzuv loyers."

Dhupahkut zev? Nor winced at the crude reference to his mother's eating habits.

I think that would serve both your purposes because it would seem more likely for Lois to accidentally hit a curse when she was saying a string of words--and for it to be very close, but not exactly the words. And as readers, we would enjoy her accidentally stumbling on a real curse in Kryptonian when she was trying to curse him in English.

Just a thought.

Okay, Queenie, here’s my 2 cents worth (I still wonder why keyboards don’t have the cent mark on them - didn’t typewriters?). I’ve read this thread a couple of times, and I don’t ‘get’ it. Oh, I understand the Ayam Fain and Yeran Ugliyimbesill but not Estoo Bongaboo, but I’m assuming that’s really supposed to be Kryptonian. I didn’t quite get the whole concept. I did understand what Carol M was saying. If you want the reader to understand that another language is being spoken, perhaps you could set it off in < speech > or ~ speech ~ .


I did have to giggle a little at what Bakasi said because I remember her saying that about the postman when I still seemed to have time to be her beta. (Hangs my head in shame at being such a bad beta friend now... ) But I am glad to know that the postman can also bite the dog - thanks to Mellie’s explanation.


And I was already giggling because Bakasi’s post was so familiar when I read this familiar bit from Mad Dog and started giggling even more:

I never could get Erica to tell me what (exactly) this means - but it does add to the mystique. And I’m hoping she finishes the story that the above belongs to. (And I’d love to still be your beta - it just might take me longer now.)

I will say that given the curse she's chosen to use works with Lois yelling in Kryptonian and us reading it in English.

For instance:
Rather than something that means Your mother sleeps with dogs in the streets of Kardashia or something.



I'll push her whatever direction I need .

Carol [who believes Queenie will bow to her will on this eventually ]

Oh, Classy. Now, I know what you meant on facebook about hinting on it... :p

That particular EPIC is FINISHEDDDD and sitting comfortably on my HD, waiting for me to start thorough revision, reviving it with some readable English sentences, and for a Beta to work on it.

As the Beta thing is no longer an issue It shaw be resumed shortly.

MDL (Who hopes Classy will enjoy her new assignment on a L&C/Poetry story, waiting for her to open her e-mail.)