Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related FFQ: Time travel conundrums

Yeah so time travel and the conundrums that go with it...

I know that in say... Back to the Future II - Doc and Marty did their best to avoid seeing themselves from the past because they didn't want to change the past. But Griff, on the other hand, did go see himself, on purpose, because he *wanted* to change the past.

So... Is the general consensus that that's how it works? Or is it more likely that if two versions of the same self [from the same timeline] meet that the universe will implode or something like that?

So let's say that Lois and Clark need to go back to change something because they woke up one day and things were weird. However, they feel that in order to change one particular thing that needs changing, Lois needs to talk to herself from several years earlier [in the Letter to Me type sense rather than the 'let's get insanely rich' sense of Griff from BttF II]. So if she goes to talk to herself and convinces herself that she is herself and that she needs to do XYZ and she can't explain why but she *has* to do it or everything will go to hell in a hand basket but she can't say anything more than that, will the universe explode or is it just possible that she can convince herself to do whatever it is and that's the only repercussion - that things change back to the way they were supposed to be?

Or did that make absolutely no sense at all?

*sigh* Apparently, conundrums are confusing.

TIA if you understood any of that...
Carol

I don't have a lot of time...but this page is the bomb. Everything you wanna know about time travel (analysis based on movies ) and then some.

Fun in the extreme if you're a big geek.

The analysis on the Terminator movies is inspired.

*back to her rabbit hole*

alcyone

That gave me a headache...

I didn't check out the Terminator stuff b/c it's not something I'm terribly familiar with but the BttF stuff...

Where's the head spinning smilie?

Carol

There's also a good explanation in Star Gate Continuum, the the extras.

Here's kind of what I'm talking about... I'm going with the idea that there's certain key events that have to happen, but the stuff in between those main events isn't necessary to the eventual outcome of the timeline, if that makes sense [so in the example below, Lois moving out, Claude stealing her story, etc. are those key events and that she sees Sam/Ellen together regularly and happy doesn't really matter - if that makes sense at all...]

• For the sake of discussion, let's call show's timeline one [TL1].
• When they wake up and Sam never cheated on Ellen, then they're in TL2 - their lives have changed drastically - maybe they're not together or their kids have disappeared or some other - unacceptable - change has occurred.
o Lois doesn't want Sam to cheat on Ellen, likes her parents together, Mom sober etc., so wants to see if she can change things so that she and Clark still end up together without Sam cheating on Ellen.
• When they go back to make sure Lois moves out at 17, it's now TL3 [Sam never cheated, Lois moved out].
• They jump ahead in TL3.
• They don't change anything when they go back to the Paul thing, just observe TL3
• When they go back to the Claude thing [to make sure he steals the story] in TL3, they create TL4.
• Since they don't go all the way forward to 'present' between then and when they make sure something else happens - Claude gets his Kerth? They change something minor but never went back to 'present' in between changes b/c they knew the second change would need to be made - one could argue that they're still in TL4 instead of TL5 but... Let's ignore that and still call it TL4.
• They jump ahead in TL4 and then go back to make sure Lois goes to the Congo [because she hadn't] - now in TL5
• Jump ahead in TL5 but things still aren't right
• Go back in TL5 to make sure something else happen and create TL6

TL6 is very similar to their original timeline but with a happy Sam/Ellen [Frequency type thing].

So technically [or as technically as anything can get with time travel], they'd been in 6 different time lines...

Since that's the case... When they go back to make sure Lois moves out, for instance, it's not the same TL1 Lois from the series that they interact with somehow, it's the TL2 Lois who becomes the TL3 Lois with that decision. So would leaving 'hints' that they were there in series continuity actually make sense from a time travel conundrum perspective? [For instance, Lois noticing her door unlocked so Claude could get back in to steal the story or something.] Because it's TL1 them that are traveling, but they really want to end up as TL6 guys [in a similar life as originally but with Ellen/Sam together/ happy].

Or did I just give everyone else my headache? Or is there some other terrible flaw I'm overlooking?

I'm working on an outline of a fic that will involve something similar but in an Alt U [and it may or may not ever get written - I changed the pertinent events to series stuff here] and I want to get my conundrum nonsense right - or something...

Basically, what I want to know is if leaving... breadcrumbs in Fic 1/TL1 would be... 'logical' since when they go back in time in Fic 2, they're not actually in TL1 anymore at all because the change took place BEFORE they went back to [so Claude would have had to... pick the lock or something in TL1 instead of the door being unlocked by their future selves to help him steal the story in TL3].

That head spinning smilie is where again?

OR

Am I just making my head hurt for nothing because it falls into the 'plausibly believable' area in a universe with a flying man and where time travel is possible?

Carol

I've seen timeline-change stuff done three ways.

1. The person who goes back on his own timeline - say, Clark - returns to the present, sees changes, but doesn't know exactly how different things are because his memories are the same as they always were. Learns as he goes along.
2. Clark fades from existance once the change is made, because his existance is now a paradox. However, Clark's past-self still lives on to the now-changed present.
3. Clark comes back to the present, at first has all his old memories, and is slowly discovering everything that has changed. After a while - as long or short as you decide - hisr old memories fade, to be replaced by new memories of the changed timeline (he forgets there was ever a change to be made or a different timeline).

If you choose #1 or #3, there would not be a need really to leave breadcrumbs (if by breadcrumbs, you mean signals for them to go back in time again and again) because they'd remember.

If you mean the breadcrumbs are for their past-selves, to change their path, yet avoiding interaction with themselves (as that is pretty much a very common no-no in any sci-fi universe), that also makes sense. And they'd still have happened there in TL6 because TL6 includes TL5, etc.

Really, time travel can be done in a million different ways that could all make sense. Up to you.

Hope I didn't misintepret your question.

(And as a Doctor Who fan, I have to add that it's fun to imagine how long the Doctor would lecture them for pulling such a stunt. <g>)

Julie

By 'breadcrumbs' I mean in the story itself - not for them to follow, but that readers will see once they're aware of it. For instance, random example, Lois and Clark are trying to break in somewhere but if the alarm is set they'll get caught and that changes the timeline. So future L/C turn the alarm off.

In fic 1, the alarm is just off and they think 'wow the alarm is off!'. In fic 2, the reader realizes that the alarm is off because future L/C turned it off.

Does that make sense?

Carol [who gave herself and Beth big headaches last night trying to sort this out... but who had a possible epiphany if she can make it work]

Oh, that definitely makes sense. Sounds like a great story, too!

ok, now I have a headache... congratulations, you have confounded me with a time travel question, which, I thought, wasn't possible.

Sounds interesting enough to read though.

you mentioned Paul...would this be the same Paul that we have come to loath and despise in LtL?

James

WARNING: Possible spoilers for There's No Place Like Home below!

LOL, James. Sort of I guess. The example in my second post is based on series continuity.

The events in that example are not the events from my fic however. I substituted events from the series there.

To use the third post...

Lois and Clark are going to break into a building but if the alarm goes off, they both get arrested and do jail time. This is a Bad Thing.

They get there to find out that the alarm is off [in Fic 1] and think 'WOOHOO! The alarm's off!'

In Fic 2, future Lois and Clark go back and turn the alarm off. So now the reader knows *why* the alarm was off in the first place. Sort of like Clark being the shooting star in TF that leads M/J to the capsule - they always thought Clark landed at dusk, but he didn't - he was there earlier and adult Clark showed them the way there but didn't know that until it happened when he was... 27 or whatever.

One of those 'have to turn the alarm off so we don't get arrested so we can go back in time later and turn the alarm off' things I guess.

Part of what I'm having a problem with is... can I have the alarm off in Fic 1?

It kind of goes with ML's There's No Place Like Home fic. If Lois and Clark start in 2001 [I think that's where they were] and go back to 1993, change something and go back to 2001, they're no longer in 'their' 2001, they're in Lane/Kent's 2001.

With me so far?

*If* at that point, they go back to 1994 they're not in Lois and Clark's 1994, they're in Lane/Kent's 1994.

Right?

So they're traveling back to key points to try to 'fix' the time line - major events like get Clark/Kent hired at the DP and see if that fixes things. With each 'fix', things get closer to 'right' for them until they are except for that pesky thing in 1993 that they can't undo.

So... if they traveled back to 1994 and convince Kent to use Gecko Story in his interview with Perry and Lois convinces Perry to hire Kent because of the Gecko Story, they've changed Lane and Kent's universe not fixed their own. Does that make sense? But in Lois and Clark's universe, the Gecko Story just... is. Not part of some time travel conspiracy to get Clark hired like it is in Lane/Kent's universe.

So, if you're watching the series [or reading fic 1] and you see Clark get hired after mentioning Gecko Story, you think 'oh. Gecko Story. That's nice.' Then you read fic 2 and you go 'Aha! Kent peddled the Gecko Story because Clark cornered him and told him to and Lois told Perry to carefully read any Gecko Stories because they often have subtle hidden human interest perspectives. Now I know why Clark used Gecko Story in his interview in Fic 1!'

*EXCEPT* the Lois and Clark that are time traveling and making sure the Gecko Story is mentioned aren't doing so in their [series/fic 1] time line, they're doing so in Lane and Kent's time line so the Gecko Story mention in Fic 1 is... unrelated to any time travel connection because the time travel didn't take place in the original Lois and Clark [series/fic 1] time line but rather in Lane and Kent's new time line. So any 'Gecko Story' or 'alarm turned off' bread crumbs in Fic 1 are superfluous because they're in the wrong time line to start with; they're in Lois and Clark's time line not Lane/Kent's time line where Fic 2 is set.

Or something.

Does that make ANY sense at all?!?!

Carol [who really likes the 'breadcrumbs' idea and wants to find a way to make it work without stretching credulity in a world with a flying man where time travel is possible]

Then there's the theory that say, if you changed the past, you would remember the changes, and only if you remember changes can you go back and effect them. Like if there is a story about some mysterious rescue when Clark was five, then Clark would know when he was thirty that, at some point in the future, he had gone back and performed the rescue. However, he can't rescue anyone else because no else was rescued, if you get what I mean. I get this view from Anne McCaffrey's novels of Pern. You can only go back in time to do things that already happened, and of course, you have to do them because they happened, if that makes any sense. Of course, the view included the thought that if you were too close to your younger self, it would affect your health negatively.

I think there's a reason we can't actually time travel.

There's LOTS of different theories, none of them fitting very well with what we saw in L&C. The one that's most plausible, where plausible means "this doesn't instantly result in a paradox," is that every time traveller creates a new universe, and will be unable to return to his original universe.

The trouble is that this means you can't actually change your own past; the best you can do is go back into time and get a new universe started with the conditions you want, e.g. if Alt-Clark travelled back to the past and kept Lois alive in the Congo, his original universe (without Lois, and now without Clark) would continue to exist - there would be a new universe containing a living Lois, but it would still have its own version of Clark, the one who is x years younger than the one who travelled back in time, and Alt-Clark would have to decide what to do about that.

Everything that physics knows about time says that you can't then return to your original timeline - Wells and Tempus managed it in L&C but that isn't exactly rigorous physics. So what does Alt-Clark do? Bow out gracefully and assume another identity? Kill his younger self and take his place? Kill himself in such a way that the body will never be found or disturb the time line?

It's probably better to keep it vague, or go the Terminator route and accept that you can never quite restore the status quo.

I think I've got it figured out [after lots of Tylenol for me, Beth and Alisha]. Sadly, not all Lois and Clark's involved in all the universes [the new ones created by the time travel changes] will end up happy but we're going to ignore those universes and stick with the ones that are and pretend the others don't exist .

Or perhaps follow them in other fics where other characters die horrible deaths etc as part of the natural timeline so they can end up together .

Carol

If you want to rely on canon, then you have the episode, "Soul Mates" as a guide. In that episode, what they change in the past does indeed affect their present, once they return to it. And they retain all memories of what had happened in the previous timeline with no memories at all of the changed timeline.

So timeline 1 would be the original where the curse existed and was still in effect.

They go and change things back in the Robin Hood days. TL1 ceases to exist and TL2 is created. L&C return and find TL2 but have no memories of TL2.

They then go back to the wild west and change TL2. TL2 ceases to exist and TL3 is created. They go back and live out their lives in TL3.

I like your idea, Carol. It will be interesting to see if you can pull this off.

ML

Okay - now that I've hit my 50K for Nano, I've been pondering this again.

[note: I didn't *say* I was *writing* it, just that I'm *pondering* it]

Without getting too bogged down in details...

There's one original time line.

It diverges in 1985.

By 1998 [thanks to our favorite time traveling couple creating more divergences], there's 6 alternate 1998s. We'll call them 1998-1 [original universe], 1998-2... 1998-6 [the last one they created].

They want to get back to 1998-1 where they started.

They don't remember any of the new timelines, only their original one and what they *learn* about the new ones.

If they are in 1998-6 go back to 1984, *before* the first divergence, and are there just long enough to reprogram the time travel machine, in a deserted location and don't change anything [kind of like ML's - they're there just long enough to push a button, but without the cameras], which 1998 do they end up in?

Do they go back to 1998-6 because that was the last of the future optional 1998s they were in?

Is it a crapshoot and the machine randomly picks one of the six potential options?

Do they go to 1998-1 because it's the original?

If they're in 1998-1, can they get to 1998-2, etc.?

This is assuming their time travel machine does not have a universe hopping option; time/space only [so they could start in 1994-3 Greece and end up in 1998-3 Metropolis when they step through the window].

If they're in 1998-6, and they go back to 1986-2 [because there's only 2 1986s, the original that leads to 1998-1 and the second that eventually leads to 1998-2/3/4/5/6], they can't end up in 1998-1, but which other 1998 would they end up in since they're between divergences?

Is it a crapshoot as mentioned earlier?

Or is there some kind of preset default that says you stay in the time line you started in so they'd end up back in 1998-6?

I think I asked that last question 2 different ways... Or maybe even the same way...

Have the first part of it figured out, but how to get them *back* from 1998-6 to 1998-1 is perpuzzling me...

Thoughts?

Carol [who thinks it might be a crapshoot, but they wouldn't KNOW it's a crapshoot and so wouldn't keep trying over and over until they get it right and the crapshoot just happens to get them where *I* want them to be and not where *they* want them to be - and who has double checked; there's no ruby slippers anywhere]

I’ve always liked the “time is a river” analogy. Branches in the time stream are nothing more that alternate paths that a river may take to the ocean. When more than one path is available, the one taken is dependent on what part of the “river” that an individual occupies.

So, if an individual is in a spatial location where the nature of “things” is such that a path leads to 1998-1, then that is where they will end up. Naturally, the presence of another individual or thing that did not belong in 1998-1 would disrupt the current of time so that the same people in the same place will end up somewhere else (1998-277?).

Another idea is that certain people will have a natural affinity to the correct time stream. This presumes that the people actually started in 1998-1. If at all possible, the universe will “try” to push them into that time stream unless there is an opposing force. Remove the problem/opposing force, and the universe just naturally puts them in the right place on its own.

Just some ideas.

Bob

The solution I think I came up with... [Thanks Kaylle!!!!]

Nature abhors a vacuum.

In this scenario, there was one Lois and Clark. Then Tempus changed 1985 creating 1998-1 [original] and 1998-2 [based on that change].

There's now two Lois and Clarks, one from each 1998.

As they go back to try to fix things, they end up with 1998-1 [which has the 1998-2 L/C in it, since the 1998-2 timeline has 1998-1 L/C in it], 1998-2 which they left and 1998-3/4/5/6 which all have their own Lois and Clarks.

If they go back to 1984 and hope to end up in their original timeline, 'time' sees the 'vacuum' in 1998-2 [no L/C where there is supposed to be one] and sends them there.

Does that work at all?

Carol [who has a headache]

I think I understood that

James

I'm not sure I got everything. Probably had a buffer overflow exception somewhere.

Anyway, two things I thought of while reading this:

When they go back from an alternate timestream to the point before the change happened, they would get to the original timeverse,as the streams form a Y (This is probably the same us up in the thread, but as I said, I had a buffer overflow )

Much funnier bit: 1. They could meet themselves form their past. And second: They could actually meet their future time-siblings if they, too, decide to travel back in time to the same point. Now *that* could be fun

Michael