Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related The "Beta" Test -- What Kind of Beta Are You?

I'm curious. I know everyone has their own style of editing fic---some are more grammar oriented than others, others tend to leave more plot-based comments. Even the comments themselves...Well, you know. If it's all right, I'd like to see what everyone focuses on.

This is totally voluntary, of course.

I just want you to show me how you would fix the following crap (NOT A REAL FIC*)

I'm sorry if this is too much to discuss in one post, or if it induces a case of badness-overload. Please do what you can. This is only a drill, but I'd prefer if you respond as if it were a real fic from a client. No swearing, please.

*AFAIK

Eewww...she licked Lex. Gross.

I don't do any beta-reading, although I was one of the Archive GEs for a while. I tend to be grammar-oriented, so most (though not necessarily all) of the spelling and punctuation mistakes would jump out at me. If I tripped on any huge plotholes along the way, I would probably make a gentle suggestion there as well.

Kathy

Okay, you asked for it... Giggles.

Well, the first thing I’d look at would be grammar, punctuation, and spelling. Depending on the person, I might make other suggestions. Believe it or not, I’ve been asked to do a couple of betas that weren’t nearly as good as this ‘crap’ (really). This one is actually understandable. My changes are in bold / single brackets. My suggestions / comments are in double brackets. I usually work in colors because it’s easier to see the changes. I made more comments at the end of this ‘beta’.


Lois was in love with Superman. She also licked [change to: liked] Lex Luthor. He was a hansome [change to: handsome] [[Who is handsome? Clark or Lex? I assume you are speaking of Lex, but this could also refer to Clark. Be specific, please.]] man and took he [change to: her] [suggest adding the word: to] nice places. [[What kind of nice places? Please elaborate. Details, details!]]

[[Suggest starting new paragraph here.]] How can [change to: could] she decide? Sadly, Lois thinks [thought] that she will [change to: could] never choose. Then their is [change to: there was] a knock on her door. It's [It was] Clark!

[[Suggest starting new paragraph.]] Come in [Add quotation marks before Come, comma after in, and quotation marks after the added comma (I don’t need to be this specific with most people, but there are some folks who don’t understand if I don’t.) - “Come in,”
Lois said, and he did.

[[Start new paragraph.]] "Lois, I love you!" Said [change to: said] [[In instances like this, said should not be capitalized. Suggest using other speech verbs rather than always using ‘said’.]] Clark. This made Lois happy.

[[Start new paragraph.]] "Clark, I love you too!" She [change to: she] [[See above explanation.]] said. She frowned. "But [add: I] also [add: love] Lex and Superman."

[[Start new paragraph.]] "Well [add comma] I am Superman. [change period to comma] " said Clark. He spun into his costume to show her.

[[Start new paragraph.]] Lois giggled. "Are you Lex to [add comma after Lex and change 'to' to: too] ?"

No [Change to: “No,” ] said Clark. [Add quotation marks.] Only a superman [Capitalize: Superman] who loves you!


Mind you this was a ‘quickie’ beta. I would tell this ‘person’ that they need to use consistent tenses. I go through and check that all the spacing between sentences is the same - most people stick with either all single spacing or all double spacing but some people use both (usually by accident). I check to see that there is consistency with smart quotes or straight quotes, long dashes or short dashes, etc. I usually go back through the story and re-read it to catch stuff I might not have caught the first time. I also try to note inconsistencies in the story line. I would probably make more suggestions if this was real - like using longer sentences. I also keep in mind the differences between American and British English.

Having learned from experience, I will no longer take on a beta without saying, “You let me read some of your stuff and then I’ll tell you if I can beta your story.” I’ve been told I can be hard on the writer but I’ve also been told by the same people that I helped make them better writers. (Now if I could just do something to improve my stuff. )

Whew!

I have seen fic where it did make this look good. I had a friend who I helped beta for someone a LONG time ago where literally every sentence needed rewritten [a non native English speaker - the content was good - you just couldn't 'get to it']. I'd probably do something along the lines of the one above. I don't beta for very many people these days and the one or two I do at the moment don't need much grammar etc so it tends to be more plot or phrasing suggestions but not usually things that NEED changing like above. I use the 'edit' feature in Word to use colors and make comments in the margins [I can't believe how many years I beta's without using that - makes it SO much easier!].

What's worse is that I get essays from students like the one above or worse. It's hard to grade for content when you can't find it.
Carol

Do you mean the 'Track changes' tool?

I'm not much of a beta-reader; have done only once for Mona. I admit I borrowed some ideas from TJ. But I'm not a grammar nazi like her, nor do I have an eye for minor mistakes.

So, I'd probably beta like this! I don't like using too much bold words because then the story almost becomes invisible to me. I use symbols instead.

KEY
Italics ? = choices / suggestions
Bold = add changes
--> = new paragraph
() = remove words/ letters

========================================================

Lois was in love with Superman. -->

She also li(c)ked Lex Luthor. He was a handsome man and took her to nice places. How (can) could she decide? Sadly, Lois (thinks) thought that she (will never) would never / will never be able to choose. -->

(Then) Suddenly? (their is) there was a knock on her door. (It's) It was Clark! -->

" Clark! Come in ," Lois said, and he (did.) entered? -->

"Lois, I love you!" (S)said Clark. -->

This made Lois happy. "Clark, I love you too!" (S)she said (.) , then (S)she frowned. "But I also love Lex and Superman." -->

"Well I am Superman (.) , " said Clark. He spun into his costume to show her. -->

Lois giggled. "Are you Lex , too ?"

" No," said Clark. " Only (a superman) a *super*man / Superman, / a [b]superman [/b] who loves you!"

The End

===========================================================

PS. I could detect only that much grammatical errors, and even though I won't mind if it is left as it is, I wholly agree with Classicala regarding the explanations/specifications/elaborations/suggestions.

Okay, I'll take your challenge, since I'm avoiding real work... haven't seen what anyone else has done.

Dear Author,

That's a nice little scene, with a prompt happy ending, but it could use a little fleshing out. I've commented on some grammar issues. I've also included a few suggestions for adding some depth and detail, but I don't expect you to use anything I've written. I've just included examples to try to explain what I'm talking about. Let me know if I haven't been clear enough.

Lois was in love with Superman. [Well, that's kind of blunt for a story hook. I'd add a sentence before to soften it, like, "What was a girl to do?" or "Romance can be so confusing" or something. Better yet, give some context for her thoughts -- "Lois paced her living room floor, confused and unhappy."]

She also licked Lex Luthor. [ewwww. Please tell me she liked him, instead ]

He was a hansome man and took he nice places. [that's "handsome" and he took *her* to nice places.]

How can she decide? [Wacky verb tense -- everything else has been in past tense so you shouldn't switch. It should be "how *could* she decide?"]

Sadly, Lois thinks that she will never choose. [Verb tenses again -- "thought that she would" and personally, I'd pad it a bit -- "never be able to choose.]

Then their is a knock on her door. [It's "there" not "their" and change "is" to "was" Also the "then" is a bit confusing -- up til this moment, the story's all been summary, but here it switches to action, and there ought to be some sort of transition. Maybe the knock startles her out of her thoughts or something]

It's Clark! [Yay!]

Come in Lois said, and he did. [Need quotes and a comma -- "Come in," Lois said...]

"Lois, I love you!" Said Clark. [No capital S on "said," it's all part of the same sentence. And it's a bit bland. Is he intense? Fervent? Angry? Smiling or pleading? Just a few details will help fill in the scene.]

This made Lois happy. [This is summary again, in the midst of action. How can you show her happiness? "She smiled" or "She felt as if her heart would burst with happiness" or something.]

"Clark, I love you too!" She said. [Again, it's all one sentence so drop the capital S on she]

She frowned. [Too choppy, need a smoother transition. "She said, then added with a frown," maybe]

"But also Lex and Superman."

"Well I am Superman." said Clark. [Need commas after "Well" and "Superman".]

He spun into his costume to show her. Lois giggled. "Are you Lex to?" [That's cute. Also should be "too" not "to"]

No said Clark. [Quote marks and a comma around "No"]

Only a superman who loves you! [Quote marks needed, but that's a sweet reply.]

The End

I'd be so tempted to have her say "Two out of three ain't bad!" but that might undercut the WAFF a bit.

Overall, I liked this (apart from the image of licking Lex!) but I do think you could improve it with only a few additions. Readers want to be able to see what the characters are doing -- sitting, standing, smiling, frowning? -- and some background is good. Otherwise there's a faint sense that the characters are hanging suspended in white space, which is odd.

Looking forward to seeing your next draft!

PJ

Yep, me too. Only I’ve had it happen with native speakers, too.

Aww, Pam, you were so polite with your suggestions. I try to be nice, too, when the person is extra sensitive, but once I know the person, I’m more straight forward. There was one person that I did a beta for that I actually just had to say that she couldn’t do that way because she didn’t seem to understand anything else. (It was a big plot hole.) But that was the only time I did that.

Thanks, Classy -- I try to be very encouraging (do unto others as you'd have them do to you) to beginning authors, in the hopes that they'll learn and improve. Of course, there's always the possibility that they'll turn out to be one of those stubborn types who think that everything they do is perfect... but that sort doesn't usually ask for beta readers. Anyway, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar, spoon-full of sugar and all that...

PJ

Now... where have I heard this before?

That flycatching strip was hysterical! And if you click on it, make sure you read the entire warning at the bottom of the page!

Liberal-arts majors, indeed! LOL!

Oh, and let's not forget the beta readers who pick up large pieces of wood and beat the author about the head and shoulders to make a point.

I've beta'd a few times. I definitely pick up spelling errors. I was a secretary for 10 years at a medical school in the Department of Biochemistry. Believe me they may have Ph.D.s but they definitely can't spell.

At grammer I'm not the best. I mostly go with what sounds right. That is usually pretty close. Sometimes in the stories here I find sentences that just don't make sense in the story. It isn't so much grammer as the whole wording of the sentence doesn't make sense. Or things don't match up - such as time or place.

With story content I first preface everything with the comment that as the author the story is and should remain theirs that any comments I make are suggestions and to please not take any offense. I truly mean that. I have great respect for those of you who are able to write. I'm terrible at it so my hat is definitely off to you in a huge salute.

The way I call them to the writers attention is to correct the spelling but to bold it and change the color so that it stands out. Grammer or sentence structure I place at the end of the sentence and color code it so that it stands out. Stories suggestion are in an email to which I've attached the read story with corrections.

I will admit that I save all stories I read to my hard drive. I read them on screen and make spelling and grammer corrections. I do this so if I read it again I don't have to go figure out the sentence or word again, I can just read along smoothly.

I guess I pick up errors in whatever I read - and believe me I've seen them in things where they shouldn't exist - because of my years at the medical school. When you are typing exams, articles for publication and research grants, and none of it really makes sense to you because it is all scientific, you learn to really read what you are looking at. That makes me a slow reader but one that generally picks up the tiniest mistake be it spelling or story flow.

I'm no beta reader. I guess as a writer when I see something I don't like that has a kernal of redeeming value, I'm tempted to write to make it better.

For your vignette I might write something like:

Staring down at the ring, Lois wondered why there was even a question in her mind. Lex represented everything she’d always wanted- fame, power, prestige. He offered her the kind of life most women only dreamed about, a life of excitement and privilege. There were a million other women who would do just about anything to step into her shoes.

So why did she keep having thoughts about ordinary brown eyes?

It wasn’t as though Clark had much to offer her. He was an ordinary guy who lived an ordinary life. With him there would be no late night plane flights to Paris, no world travel.

Lex could offer her an extraordinary life.

With Clark, life would always be ordinary. Clark was…solid. He was dependable. While it was true that he was easy to look at, most women would quickly jump at the chance to live like a queen.

Lois realized that she was clutching something in her hand. It took her a moment to realize that it was the bear he’d won her on that one day.

There’d been a spark between them that day, although Lois had fought not to acknowledge it. In truth there always had been.

Closing her eyes, Lois inhaled deeply, realizing that she could almost smell the scent of him. Clark knew her better than anyone. He’d been there through her triumphs and when she was at her lowest, and even when her eyes were red and swollen from crying he never made her feel like anything less than a queen.

Perhaps that was the reason she was comparing the two. Lex offered her an extraordinary life, but Clark made her feel extraordinary.

With Lex she’d always be the lesser of two partners. With Clark she’d be an equal.

Clark challenged her in ways she’d never thought possible, and in the months that she’d known him a spring had returned to her step, one that hadn’t been there since that terrible night with Claude.

It didn’t matter how ordinary Clark seemed to the rest of the world. To her, he was something special. He was the one man who wouldn’t offer her an extraordinary life.

He’d share one.

Slowly Lois closed the box with the ring and set it on the table.

The knock on the door startled her and she quickly rose to her feet. Looking through the peep hole, she saw that it was Clark?

Had her heart always raced like this when she saw him?

Slowly she opened the door.

He stood there nervously, refusing to look her in the eye. “Lois, We have a lot to talk about.”

Whatever he had to say, Lois knew they would share it together. Although apart they were two ordinary people, together they were extraordinary.

***********

Still not great, I know. Of course, this is not beta read either, and it's late at night so I probably made errors. Feel free to pick it apart.

Lois was in love with Superman. She also licked [}If you really meant 'licked' then ok, but I would use 'liked'{ Lex Luthor. He was a hansome }handsome{ man and took he}her{ nice places. How can}Present tense evil should be 'could'{ she decide? Sadly, Lois thinks that}'that' is not needed for this sentence{ she will never choose. Then their}there{ is}Present tense evil should be 'There was' and drop the 'then'{ a knock on}I would use 'at' instead of 'on', your choice{ her door. It's Clark!}Even if this is a thought the '!' is not ok, in this instance. As a thought it would be It's Clark, she thought excitedly. If this was spoken, then it is missing quotes.{ Come in}missing quotes around 'come in'{ Lois said, and he did.

}paragraph break needed here{"Lois, I love you!" Said}'said' should not be capitalised{ Clark.

}paragraph break needed here, maybe{This made Lois happy. "Clark, I love you too!" She}'she' should not be capitalised{ said. She frowned. "But also Lex and Superman."}Very awkward sentence. Try this on for size. "But, I love Lex and Superman, as well!"{

}paragraph break needed here{"Well}need a comma here{ I am Superman." said Clark. He spun into his costume to show her.}Nice sentence!{ Lois giggled. "Are you Lex to?"}'too' not 'to'{

No}Missing quotes around 'No'{ said Clark. Only a superman}should be seperate word here 'a super man'{ who loves you!

The End

}Overall, not a bad beginning concept. Need to work on avoiding Present Tense and quotation punctuation.{


That is what I would do. Honestly, This wasn't that bad. I have read and beta-ed for a whole lot worse where I ended up suggesting whole paragraph re-writes.

James

Lois was in love with Superman. <That's a nice strong opening statement. I like it.> She also licked Lex Luthor. <I'm betting that she "liked" him instead, although the way you wrote it brought funny pictures to my mind. Tee hee.> He was a hansome <handsome> man and <You could use "and" here, but I would say "who took her"> took he <her> nice places. How can <could> she decide? Sadly, Lois thinks <thought> that she will never choose. <This would be a good place to fill it out if you wanted to expand your fic into something longer. Why does she think that?> Then their is <It should be "there was". Be careful about those tenses.> a knock on her door. <Start a new paragraph here. Also add quotation marks. "It's Clark!"> It's Clark! <Another new paragraph. More quotation marks. "Come in," Lois said, and he did.> Come in Lois said, and he did. <Another new paragraph. Also, add the last two words to the end of the sentance, like this, "Lois, I love you!" said Clark. > "Lois, I love you!" Said Clark. This made Lois happy. <We're getting to the climax of the story here. You might want to add more description so we can walk a bit in Lois' shoes.> <Another new paragraph. Also, add the last two words to the end of the sentance, like this, "Clark, I love you, too!" she said. > "Clark, I love you too!" She said. <This is a good place to tell us what she's thinking. It adds to the drama of the climax and draws the reader in.> She frowned. <"...but also> "But also Lex and Superman." <Remember to start a new paragraph everytime someone new speaks.> "Well<,> I am Superman.<replace the period with a comma>" said Clark. He spun into his costume to show her. <His actions speak powerfully here. You might want to show us more of what that looks like to add to the action. Try adding some more from the five senses to fill it out.> <Since we're switching to Lois' POV, I'd start another paragraph.> Lois giggled. "Are you Lex to?" <Ha ha! What a great punchline. Let's just fix the grammar, "Are you Lex, too?">

<">No<,"> said Clark. <">Only a superman who loves you!<"> <Aww! What a sweet way to end it. You have the makings of a very sweet vignette here with only a few grammar issues to clean up. I think it would touch the reader more if you filled it out in some spots, but all in all it's a nice ficlet.>

The End


In general, I assume people want their grammar problems fixed. I also assume they want encouragement--nobody writes to be abused. I ask if they want feedback regarding style or plot, but that's usually not my primary focus. Most of the betas I've done have been for newbie writers who might get overwhelmed if you ask them to fix everything all at once. I also beta for James, and I've been known to be truly tough on him. (But I swear I made it up to him later. Besides, he's never pouted for more than a few weeks.)

Chief Pam, you can beta for me any day with style like that. Classicalla, since I have fewer grammar issues I might just hit you up one of these days if you could grow me as a writer. And Shayne, well... shucks, you can write for me any time, but I just might be insulted if you replaced my story with your own as a beta reader.

Oh, wait! I just remembered writing When Beta Readers Go Bad . Many apologies, Shayne.

E

I wasn't going to say a word, sweetheart...
James

Oooh! You managed to capture at least three of my fanfic pet peeves in just two paragraphs! I SO have to do this!

I'm just going to bold any changes I would make (I usually bold, then change the color to something other than black--same color for all corrections and/or comments), and then put any comments in bold, with parenthesis around them. For the most part, everything I've said/changed is just a suggestion, but there are some things (like spelling, punctuation and grammar) which really should not be ignored--although you definitely have the right to do so, against my advice.

Lois was in love with Superman. She also liked Lex Luthor. He was a handsome man, and took her nice places. How could she decide? Sadly, Lois thought that she would never (might want to add "be able to" here) choose. (New paragraph.) Then there was a knock on her door. It was Clark! (How would she know? She hasn't opened the door yet. Did she look through the peep hole, or is she just psychic? New paragraph.) "Come in," Lois said, and he did. (New paragraph.) "Lois, I love you!" said Clark. This made Lois happy. (New paragraph.) "Clark, I love you too!" she said. She frowned. (Would flow better if it was, "she said, then frowned.") "But also Lex and Superman." (New paragraph.) "Well, I am Superman," said Clark. He spun into his costume to show her. (New paragraph.) Lois giggled. "Are you Lex too?"

"No," said Clark. Only a super man (If it's the name, then it's capitalized and one word. If he's saying he's super and male, then it's two words and lower-case.) who loves you!

The End

(Very cute. You could use a little more detail though. One way to go about adding detail would be to do what I did in the middle there--reread your story as though you've never read it before, and if there's something you "don't know" about it, ask yourself a question which you would then answer within the narrative.

Also, you must make a new paragraph every time a new person is speaking. This is NOT negotiable. It is absolutely necessary and required, especially if you want your dialogue to be taken seriously--or at least so the reader won't get confused in the middle of it!

You've done a good job with keeping it to Lois's point of view though. You wouldn't believe how many stories I've read in the past where it seems every other sentence--and sometimes every other phrase--is obviously from someone else's POV, so props for that!

Finally--and this is just a stylistic thing based on my own overly-opinionated convictions about writing--if you've written the story well enough, you really don't need to say, "The End." The tone of the concluding paragraph(s) of your work should already tell the reader that it's the end of the story, without you saying so.)

I've got a kick out of reading all the beta'd revisions, and then this morning I re-read the orginal, and thought ...

it's perfect! A great satire - badfic supreme, and concisely done too! No need to be changing it at all.

- It was interesting reading the rewrites and what really amounted to rewrites. So I wondered if someone might produce another very short 'badfic', and then various writers might 'rewrite' it, but anonymously. Then see if we could guess the author?

- Also. We all probably know, deep down, that some stuff we've written is mega- badfic. It might be interesting if writers select just a short bit from a fic they've posted - say a paragraph or a few lines of dialogue that they think is "badfic" - and see how others might beta or rewrite it.

Not sure if this might belong in the challenge section?

c.